amntrans AMNESTY HEARING 1998-08-06 MABOPANE 1 JABU OBET MASINA AM 5886/97 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=52792&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1998/98080607_mbp_mabopan1.htm CHAIRPERSON Good morning everybody. I'd like to start by introducing the panel that will be presiding over this matter. On my far left is Advocate Bosman, she is from the Cape. On my immediate left is Advocate Motata, he is from Johannesburg. On my right is Advocate Sigodi, who is from Port Elizabeth and I am Selwyn Miller, a Judge from the Transkei. I'd like to ask the legal representatives please to place themselves on record. MR VAN DEN BERG Thank you Mr Chairman, I'm Eric van den Berg, together with my colleague, Kabelo Lengane from the firm Bell, Dewar and Hall. We act on behalf of all four applicants. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr van den Berg. ADV MPSHE Thank you Mr Chairman. J M Mpshe for the Truth Commission Amnesty Committee in particular. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Mpshe. Mr van den Berg, the documentation that we have is contained in this bundle. I notice from the documentation that the application forms, or at least three of the four have been signed before a Commissioner. I don't know, sometimes we get it that these are merely typed copies and the originals are elsewhere, do you know whether they have in fact been signed before a Commissioner of Oaths? MR VAN DEN BERG Mr Chairman, I'm instructed that they were signed. I can lead each individual applicant on that aspect, perhaps just to make doubly sure. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr van den Berg. Also Mr van den Berg, I notice from the applications that they only deal specifically with two incidents, one relating to an incident with a Casspir and the other one relating to the incident involving Brigadier Molope but in addition there's mention about other incidents in Annexure A. I take it that we are not concerned with those other incidents, they will be dealt with at another hearing, is that correct? MR VAN DEN BERG That is as I understand the position Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. ADV MPSHE Mr Chairman, perhaps before ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Sorry, before we start, I would just like to inform the people that the proceedings are translated. If you want to hear the proceedings in your language then you should be in possession of one of these instruments. CHAIRPERSON EXPLAINS TRANSLATION EQUIPMENT ADV MPSHE Thank you Mr Chairperson. Just to add on the Chair's concern about other matters mentioned in the application. It is indeed so, this Committee is not to deal with those matters, particularly on the paginated page 3 where it is mentioned "Operation One" It does not concern us. Page 2 as well as page 16. The applicants refer to information of the court cases, just to inform the Chair and the Committee Members that these applicants in this matter were never charged. They are referring to other matters wherein they were charged. Mr Chairman, the victim in this matter is available, the wife of the deceased, Mrs Molope and the daughter to her left. They are here. Unfortunately they are not legally represented. I have just spoken to her and she did not fully understand the whole form as it was given to her by the local police who served it on her but I've just explained everything to her and if she does not need a lawyer at this juncture, I am available to assist her and she is agreeable to that, thank you. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Mpshe. So you will then be representing the victims as it were. ADV MPSHE Yes, Mr Chair. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Do you need time to consult? ADV MPSHE Mr Chairman, I have consulted with her. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Mpshe. Mr van den Berg? MR VAN DEN BERG Thank you Mr Chairman. As I explained earlier, we act on behalf of all four applicants and that we are dealing with a particular matter which took place in the course of 1986. I'd like to commence by calling the commander of the unit which was responsible for the incident and that is Jabu Obet Masina. CHAIRPERSON Page 13 of the papers? MR VAN DEN BERG That is correct Mr Chairman, thank you. The applicant will testify in Zulu, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. JABU OBET MASINA (sworn states) MR VAN DEN BERG Mr Chairman, I am advised that there is not a Zulu interpreter available. I'll have to ascertain from Mr Masina if he is comfortable in another language. Mr Masina, other than Zulu? MR MASINA I have a problem with Sotho but I will try by all means. CHAIRPERSON Are you sure that you are comfortable speaking Tswana Mr Masina, otherwise we could perhaps maybe lead the evidence of another applicant who is comfortable with Tswana and in the interim try to secure a interpreter in Zulu, but I don't want to interfere with Mr van den Berg's presentation of the matter. I just raise that as a possibility. MR MASINA The applicant is prepared to converse in Xhosa. We will interpret in Xhosa and then he will respond in Zulu. CHAIRPERSON If there is any problem that arises, please don't hesitate to inform us. EXAMINATION BY MR VAN DEN BERG Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Masina, is it correct that you were born on the 26th of December 1950 in Western Native township, which is a township adjoining Sofa Town? MR MASINA That is correct Sir. MR VAN DEN BERG At a point in your schooling you decided that you would go and seek employment. During that time you were a victim of a criminal attack and you decided that you would return to school, is that correct? MR MASINA That's correct Sir. MR VAN DEN BERG Could you indicate to the panel when that occurred, which year was that? MR MASINA This happened round abut 1974 when I sustained these injuries, and because of these injuries or this attack, I decided to go back to school. MR VAN DEN BERG How did it come that you became involved in the African National Congress and you came to be a member of Umkhonto weSizwe? MR MASINA I did this because I realised that there was no progress in South Africa because I went back to school with the intention to improve my situation, but when during the June 1976 uprising I realised that the situation here in South Africa was not conducive and I then decided to leave for other countries. ADV MPSHE Mr Chairman, I'm sorry for the interruption, I've realised that there is no interpretation into Tswana and the victims are Tswana. I just don't know what is happening. I will just sort it out quickly Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Do you need a short adjournment Mr Mpshe? ADV MPSHE Please Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Do you need a short adjournment Mr Mpshe? ADV MPSHE Yes, please Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Sorry for this but we've got a bit of a difficulty with the interpretation and we will just take a short adjournment to enable that problem to be sorted out. If you can let us know as soon as we're ready and then we can start again. ADV MPSHE We are indebted to the Chair and the Committee for the indulgence. We have everything in place now, the second booth has been set up and we are sure to kick off. Thank you very much. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Mpshe. ADV MPSHE Mr Chairman, another things I nearly forgot, as I indicated to the Committee Members that there's a feeling amongst the children of the deceased that they would like to put questions to each and every applicant but I've indicated that we can only allow one to do that. They have chosen one who is going to do that, and at the end she will again be the one who is going to take the stand to say something on behalf of the family. CHAIRPERSON Yes, certainly, thank you Mr Mpshe. Mr van den Berg? MR VAN DEN BERG Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Masina, when you were testifying prior to the break, you had advised the Committee that you had come to a decision in terms of which you had decided to leave the country ...[intervention] INTERPRETER Please give the interpretation a break. Mr Masina must switch on channel 4 for Zulu, not 3. The interpretation is ready, you may proceed, thank you. MR VAN DEN BERG Thank you. When did you leave the country? MR MASINA I left in December 1977. I don't recall the precise date but it was in December 1977. MR VAN DEN BERG Is it correct that you joined the ANC and underwent basic military training at the Funda Camp in Angola? MR MASINA That is correct Sir. MR VAN DEN BERG And thereafter you were deployed in Swaziland? MR MASINA That's correct Sir. MR VAN DEN BERG What were your duties in Swaziland, just very briefly as a background for the Committee. MR MASINA In Swaziland I was assisting our other comrades who were supposed to come back to South Africa and those who were to leave South Africa to go to Angola and so forth. MR VAN DEN BERG Could I summarise it by saying that you were involved in the infiltration of cadres into the country? MR MASINA That is correct Sir. MR VAN DEN BERG And the facilitation of those who wanted to leave the country to join the ANC, to facilitate their path? MR MASINA That's correct Sir. MR VAN DEN BERG Now in 1984 the Komati Accord was signed. MR MASINA That's correct. MR VAN DEN BERG As a result of which you were deported to Mozambique? MR MASINA That's correct Sir. MR VAN DEN BERG Did you receive any further military training? MR MASINA Yes, I got further military training. It was called general training and it lasted nine months, and thereafter I had to specialise in a communication course. MR VAN DEN BERG I indicated at the beginning of your evidence when you were called to give evidence, that you were the commander of the unit responsible for the death of Brigadier Molope, how did you come to be the commander of that unit? Could you explain that to the Committee? MR MASINA In 1985 I was called by the late comrade Chris Hani and he told me that he wants me to head unit that was to assassinate and I had to find people that will work with me. MR VAN DEN BERG Can you explain to the Committee the mandate that was given to you, who were you to assassinate? MR MASINA In reality Hani did not give us any list of people to be assassinated, he just said that we should concentrate on sell-outs and the police informers. MR VAN DEN BERG Were any other people or categories of people identified for purposes of assassination or elimination? MR MASINA Some of the people were policemen because he said that they were our enemies as well, but he did not say all policemen would be our victims or targets but there are some policemen who are bringing order in the country, but those who were actually enemies of the people had to be assassinated. MR VAN DEN BERG Who were the people that you recruited for the unit? MR MASINA I recruited these gentlemen who are behind me. It was Masangonieu Putsani and Joseph Makhura and the other one, Justice who left us, who just disappeared in South Africa. We don't know what actually happened to him. Also there is another one called Rufus who is late. MR VAN DEN BERG Justice Mpesani, what was his operational name? MR MASINA It was Mandla Shezi. MR VAN DEN BERG Can you tell the Committee how you came to be in South Africa during 1986? MR MASINA Mr and Masango came from Zambia and we crossed via a valley into Botswana and we entered South Africa. We did not go through the Ramatxlabama Border Gate officially, we just jumped the fence at the border. MR VAN DEN BERG What was the purpose of your and Mr Masango's infiltration into the country? MR MASINA We had to come and further the ANC duties that Chris had instructed us to. MR VAN DEN BERG And in which areas were you based? MR MASINA We were based in Winterveld and Mamelodi, but we had no stable base. MR VAN DEN BERG If I understand you correctly, you and Mr Masango were infiltrated into the country first? MR MASINA That's correct Sir. MR VAN DEN BERG And was it for purposes of paving the way for the remaining members of your unit? MR MASINA That's correct Sir, because some of our unit members were arrested in Botswana and they were sent back. Therefore myself and Masango, Chris Hani told us that we should infiltrate and prepare the bases because despite the fact that they were sent back they will still come. MR VAN DEN BERG You've applied for amnesty for the incident which is being heard today, that is the death of Brigadier Molope. MR MASINA That's correct Sir. MR VAN DEN BERG Can you tell the Committee how it came to be that the Brigadier was identified as a target and how it came to be that he was eventually eliminated? MR MASINA There is a thing called Winterveld Massacre and we found out that Brigadier Molope is the one who issued the instruction that people should be killed in that massacre. The people were busy demonstrating against different things and through our investigations in the community we established that Brigadier Molope was the one who gave the instructions that these people should be shot, and eleven people died in that incident. MR VAN DEN BERG May I interrupt you Masina? We're in a situation where we're not working from a written statement and the Members of the Committee have to write down what you are saying, so if you'll slow down a little bit, the detail that you are giving now is important. MR MASINA Thank you Sir, I will. MR VAN DEN BERG You advised the Committee that you had identified Brigadier Molope as a result of reports in the community of his involvement in what you've called: "The Winterveld Massacre". MR MASINA That's correct Sir. MR VAN DEN BERG Do you recall the date of that incident, the Winterveld Massacre? MR MASINA No, Sir, I don't recall. It happened quite a while ago, but I think it appeared in the media, everybody is aware of it, it appeared then. CHAIRPERSON Was it in 1986 when you were in South Africa or was it prior to your infiltration? MR MASINA It happened in 1988 just before we arrived. MR VAN DEN BERG You say a number of people were killed in that incident? MR MASINA That's correct, eleven people died, if I recall clearly. MR VAN DEN BERG Was it purely on the basis of that incident that you identified Molope as a target? MR MASINA That's correct Sir. Also the community showed that Brigadier Molope was their enemy and they were complaining about him, that he was a bad element and another policeman by the name of Mokobojane. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, you say another policeman by the name of Mokobojane. Was he criticised as being an enemy of the people or was he a person who criticised Brigadier Molope? I didn't quite understand you. MR MASINA The community told us that Molope and Mokobojane are bad people, they are amongst those policemen who are bad elements in the community. CHAIRPERSON What do you mean by the community, when you say: "the community told you"? MR MASINA I'm talking about the general public you come across, Whenever you arrived at a place there will such talks about this person, he's very bad and he got people killed. It was just a general discussion amongst the general public. He and Molope were not on friendly terms with the community. MR VAN DEN BERG You've described these policemen as a bad element or bad people, what do you mean by that? MR MASINA They were bad because Molope issued an instruction that policemen should fire or shoot at people who were showing their dissatisfaction, and they died eventually. CHAIRPERSON Could I just ask a question Mr van den Berg? Mr Masina, with your unit, when you were in South Africa and you identified a target as you've told us, was it in your discretion, you're unit's discretion, to then take action against that identified target or did you have to report back before you took action, to your superiors out of the country? MR MASINA We were operating in such a manner that as soon as we have identified a target we would report back to our seniors back there and tell them we have identified such a person and would it be viable if we removed such a person and then Chris Hani and the rest would give us the permission to do it or not, the assassination. CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you Mr van den Berg. MR VAN DEN BERG Thank you Mr Chairman. Once the Brigadier had been identified as a target, what happened thereafter? MR MASINA Ting Ting reported to me and said that they've done the reconnaissance and all the necessary things. As their commander I gave them the green light to go on with the assassination ...[intervention] MR VAN DEN BERG May I interrupt you there, you made reference to Ting Ting, that is a reference to Mr Masango, one of your co-applicants. MR MASINA That's correct Sir. MR VAN DEN BERG So if I understand you correctly, Mr Masango was responsible for the reconnaissance for the operation? MR MASINA That's correct Sir. MR VAN DEN BERG Did you participate in the reconnaissance at all? MR MASINA No, Sir, I never did. MR VAN DEN BERG You say that: "they", understand that that includes Mr Masango, sought what you've described as: "the green light", who else was involved in that discussion? MR MASINA It was Joseph Makhura, he was there as well. MR VAN DEN BERG Did you give any specific instruction in the manner in which the operations were to be carried out? MR MASINA Yes, Sir, I did. MR VAN DEN BERG What were those? MR MASINA I said to them, if they believed that they have done a thorough reconnaissance they may eliminate him. MR VAN DEN BERG Did you give instructions as to who was to fulfil which role in the operation, for example, who was to drive and who was to do the shooting or was that left up to them? MR MASINA As a commander I gave the instructions that Joseph Makhura and the other one who has disappeared in the country, Justice, because they should shoot Molope with AK rifles and the other one must drive the car. MR VAN DEN BERG You refer to the other one, do you mean Mr Masango? MR MASINA That's correct, Mr Masango was driving. MR VAN DEN BERG Were you present when the operation was carried out, when Brigadier Molope was assassinated? MR MASINA No, I was not present. MR VAN DEN BERG Did Mr Masango and Mr Makhura report to you that they had carried out the operation? MR MASINA Yes, they did, they reported back to me that they have done the job. MR VAN DEN BERG And this was in turn reported to your structures in Botswana? MR MASINA That's correct Sir. MR VAN DEN BERG Mr Masina, you deposed to an affidavit, and I think you have a copy in front of you. Mr Chairman, it's at page 19 in the bundle that we have. MR MASINA Which page is that you are referring to Sir? MR MASINA If you look at the second page of your affidavit - that's page 20 for Members of the Committee -would you just have a look at what is stated at paragraphs 4.1 through to 4.7. You may need some time to read it. I don't want you to read it into the record, I just want you to read through it, so just take your time to read through it as I have some questions I want to ask. Have you read through it? MR MASINA Yes. MR VAN DEN BERG Do you confirm what is stated here? MR MASINA That's correct Sir. MR VAN DEN BERG So when you referred to the Brigadier as a bad person, you were referring to him as a bad person in the political sense? MR MASINA Brigadier Molope was a puppet of the then regime, he was being used against the people. MR VAN DEN BERG Do you have anything that you want to add to what you have already testified to? MR MASINA No, Sir, I've got nothing further to say. MR VAN DEN BERG Will you answer any question which either the family members of the victim have or the Committee, to clarify any aspect of your testimony? MR MASINA Yes, I'm willing to do that Sir. MR VAN DEN BERG Thank you Mr Chairman, I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VAN DEN BERG CHAIRPERSON Sorry Mr van den Berg, if you look at page 14, 9(a) "I participated in two operations" The first relates to the planting of an anti-tank landmine in Mamelodi West. Are we going to deal with that or not? MR VAN DEN BERG Mr Chairman, I'm advised that this hearing is purely in respect of the death of Brigadier Molope, and that the other incidents for which he has applied for amnesty will be dealt with at a separate time. CHAIRPERSON So we're not expected at all to make a decision on that anti-mine incident at Mamelodi West? MR VAN DEN BERG That is how I understand the position Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Is that so Mr Mpshe, I don't want any confusion here? ADV MPSHE That is so Mr Chairman. Perhaps to explain the reason why the papers are in this fashion, this was extracted from the bulk application of the applicants wherein they mention all the incidents but we are only interested in the Molope incident. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR VAN DEN BERG Mr Chairman, there is one aspect that I neglected to ask a question on. CHAIRPERSON Certainly Mr van den Berg. FURTHER EXAMINATION BY MR VAN DEN BERG If I can just ask him that. The form which you submitted for purposes of applying for amnesty, was that signed? MR MASINA Yes, it is signed Sir. MR VAN DEN BERG Thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VAN DEN BERG CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr van den Berg. Mr Mpshe, what is the situation, are you going to be asking questions on behalf of the mother or are the other members of the family going to be taking over your mantle in that regard or also be asking questions in addition to you asking questions, and if so, who is going to ask the questions first? ADV MPSHE Mr Chairman, I'm going to ask questions on behalf of the family and only one member of the family will add. CHAIRPERSON After you've asked questions the she requires an opportunity? ADV MPSHE Yes, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Yes. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY ADV MPSHE Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Masina, I note in your application that you refer to this unit as the Icing(?) Unit. MR MASINA Yes, Sir. ADV MPSHE Now when was this unit formed? MR MASINA It was formed immediately Chris Hani called me in Angola saying that I should organise a unit that was going to do this specific task. ADV MPSHE I'm sure you are aware that we were not present when you were talking to Chris Hani. We want the date, if only the year please. MR MASINA It was in 1985. ADV MPSHE Was it specifically formed for this operation or for all other operations? MR MASINA All operations Sir. ADV MPSHE Were you given - by: "you" I'm referring to the Icing Unit, were you given a specific mandate as to how to go about before you carry out an operation, as cadres would be expected to or were you just given a blank cheque to go to as you choose? MR MASINA We were given a mandate and a clear instruction as to how we should work. Chris Hani told us not to just enter the country and kill anyone randomly. As we identify somebody as an enemy of the people, especially in political affairs then we should eliminate such a person, but otherwise if they, as soon as we identify such a person we should go back to them in exile and report the whole information about this person and then they would give us the go-ahead. ADV MPSHE I'm trying to understand from what you are saying as meaning that you were to, before you carry out an operation, you were to do your own investigations, you have to ascertain, you have to rekkie the place, you have to get as much information as possible before you can take human life, is that what you were told specifically? MR MASINA That's correct Sir. ADV MPSHE No was it done in this particular incident, did you rekkie the place, did you get information, did you ascertain this as the actual target? MR MASINA That's correct Sir, I did. As I have already said, when we were here in South Africa we had to go back to Chris Hani in Botswana to get permission to do the job and then he would give us the green light. ADV MPSHE Mr Masina, it would seem you don't understand me. Forget about the country, let's concentrate on this operation, let us call it: "The Molope Operation". Now tell this Committee what you did before he could be killed, to satisfy yourself that this that target, or were you just told by the people that he is not like and you have got to kill him, is that what happened? MR MASINA As I have said before, Molope issued the instruction that the policemen should shoot and kill marchers that were boycotting rent, and eleven people were killed. That was proof enough to me that he was the people's enemy. ADV MOTATA I suppose other than the general dissatisfaction of the general public, do you do any other thing to establish that he indeed gave those instructions for people to be massacred in Winterveld in other words, or you just went with the word of the public and thereafter did your reconnaissance and eliminated him? MR MASINA We did get the confirmation that he was the one that issued the order that eleven were killed. We did do the reconnaissance and investigation and found that he actually did it. ADV MPSHE Mr Masina, let's concentrate on this ...[indistinct - zulu word]. We need details here, we need full disclosure here, we don't want generalities. I'm sure you are aware of that. You are aware of that? MR MASINA Yes. ADV MPSHE Now in order to ascertain that he is the person who gave the order, what did you people do to convince yourself? Reconnaissance meaning - reconnaissance means observing the place where he stays, his movements and other things. I am concerned about the instruction whether it is actually him who gave the order for the people to be killed. MR MASINA The newspapers, the media actually mentioned that Molope is the one who gave the instruction that people killed, and we also went to our external mission in Botswana and Chris Hani actually told us that he was the people's enemy, Molope. ADV MPSHE Mr Masina, do you expect this Committee to accept for purposes of amnesty, that you read the newspapers and the newspapers satisfied you that he is the person, without you as the commander, well trained cadres, taught how to investigate, taught how to rekkie a place, doing anything to ascertain for yourself, you depended on the newspapers which may have been wrong, is that what you did as a commander? MR MASINA It was the truth that appeared on the papers because even the community said that Molope was the one who issued the instruction, and even our external mission did explain that he was an enemy and we should target him. ADV BOSMAN Can I just come in here please Mr Mpshe? Was Mr Chris Hani not actually relying on you to tell him who the enemies were in a particular community? MR MASINA No, he was not necessarily relying on me but some of the information he would expect from me. As I have said, we would come, we would identify the target and get back to him, but in this instance he did confirm that he is a legitimate target. ADV BOSMAN But do you have any idea as to from whom Mr Hani got his information, apart from you? MR MASINA I don't know where he got that information but he was a prominent figure in the ANC and he knew all the enemies of the ANC. ADV BOSMAN Were there any other of your colleagues who had come from Botswana in the area at the time, who may have given that information? Did you know of any other cadres in the area at the time who may have given this information? MR MASINA Are you referring to Chris Hani? ADV BOSMAN ...[inaudible] MR MASINA Yes, we were all present at the moment but the main person who was reporting to Chris Hani was myself. ADV BOSMAN Thank you, Chair. ADV MPSHE I'm sorry about that Mr Chair. I'm a Leader of Evidence, technician, whatever. Sorry about it. Mr Masina, I don't want you to get a picture from me that I say you are not telling the truth but the picture I want you to get from me on behalf of this Committee is that full disclosure is not being seen to be done by yourself. And I hope your layers will take care of this. I'm continuing on the aspect of identifying Brigadier Molope as a target. Let us assume for a moment, even if it is difficult to accept that the people in Botswana would give information, the position is that you do the research and you give that information but let's accept that that is what happened, what did they tell you in exile about Molope, for you to decide to go and kill, because you did absolutely nothing yourself? MR MASINA They told me something that I was aware of, that was appearing in the newspapers, that Brigadier Molope was the people's enemy because he is the one who issued the instruction that the eleven people should be killed in Winterveld. ADV MPSHE I'm stepping off on that one, but I want to put it on record clearly. So you are saying you gave the order to your operatives to kill Molope on the basis of information given to you, for matter to call it hearsay, on the base of hearsay, would that be correct? MR MASINA I don't whether the newspapers report lies or not but we had this in the newspapers and confirmed this from the community. Also, my senior officials confirmed this and that made me to believe that he was a real enemy of the people. ADV MPSHE And that is what you believed as a commander without doing anything yourself, as a commander? I'm talking to a commander now? MR MASINA Yes, that's what we did. ADV MPSHE Now let's go back to the victims in the Winterveld Massacre. Of what significance were they to your cause? MR MASINA Are you talking about the people who died in Winterveld? They were important because they were South African citizens and me as an MK cadre, I was taught to protect the South African citizens. ADV MPSHE Do we have to accept that you had to protect anybody in South Africa, irrespective of his political convictions or alliance? MR MASINA Yes. If it's a policeman who was killing a South African, I would regard him as enemy of the people. ADV MPSHE Just to make an example, if a policeman gets word that somebody's wife has been raped in your vicinity and the policeman chases that person and in the process of trying to arrest the person who has killed, will you kill that policeman? You see I'm worried by your generalities here. MR MASINA When I say a policeman that kills South African citizens, I was talking about political situations. MR LENGANE Excuse me. Mr Chairman, I think I need to just interpose a little bit. Sorry to you Mr Mpshe. When replying to the previous question, the applicant did say that the political affiliation would not be significant, in direct answer to the question when it was raised by Mr Mpshe. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mpshe? ADV MPSHE If the Chair could just bear with me a little bit. Turn to your application, page 20, if you have a copy, page 20 thereof. CHAIRPERSON It's the second page of your affidavit, that's at paragraphs 4.1.3 to 4.7. ADV MPSHE 4.2 in particular. I will read it for you for your convenience. You say "Mr Molope was identified as one of the persons who were willingly used by the apartheid regime" Let us stop there. Did you ascertain how he was used and what he did to further the apartheid regime? MR MASINA The mere fact that he could shoot people who were marching against the apartheid regime showed that he was on the white man's side. And that clearly showed me that he is the enemy of the people. ADV MPSHE Are you saying the eleven people who were killed at the massacre were fighting for liberation? MR MASINA That's correct Sir. ADV MPSHE Somewhere in your papers it is mentioned that they were against the rent hikes. MR MASINA That's correct Sir. Marching against rent hikes against the government, it just showed that they are just fighting for their own rights. ADV MPSHE When you speak of liberation you speak of political liberation, the political freedom and not the financial convenience? MR VAN DEN BERG Mr Chairman ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON We don't really need to get into the intricacies of the politics of the struggle. I think it can be accepted Mr Mpshe, that a lot of the opposition against the previous government and regime was not only confined to strictly political matters but did show itself through strikes and mass actions and resistances. You don't need to spend too much time on this. You can ask the question, but it's more a matter of argument really. ADV MPSHE Thank you Mr Chairman, I will abide by the Chair's comment. I will take it up in argument, thank you. Could you look at 4.6? "We believe that this action would re-instil in the intimidated people of the Winterveld, faith that the ANC and its military wing, Umkhonto weSizwe would not tolerate atrocities against them" You're referring here to people of Winterveld in general once more? MR MASINA Yes, I'm referring to the general public of Winterveld and South Africa broadly, but this happened in Winterveld and that is why I've mentioned Winterveld here. ADV MPSHE Finally Mr Masina, when you directed your operatives to go and carry out this operation, did you tell them the reason why this has to be done? MR MASINA Yes, I told them. I told them that Molope is an enemy and therefore he's got to be eliminated. ADV MPSHE You did not give them any other information other than that one? MR MASINA I don't recall any other information, other than the fact that Molope was an enemy and he had to be removed from the community. ADV MPSHE You told the Committee that Masango was a person who was doing the reconnaissance. MR MASINA That's correct Sir. ADV MPSHE For how long did he do it? MR MASINA I don't recall clearly, maybe he might refresh my memory. ADV MPSHE Okay, did he give a report to you? MR MASINA Yes, he did report back to me that they have done the reconnaissance already. ADV MPSHE And you were satisfied with that? MR MASINA Yes. ADV MPSHE That will be all Mr Chairman, thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MPSHE CHAIRPERSON Thank you. ADV MPSHE Mr Chairman, the application that I made, one of the children would like to put question if the Chair allows. CHAIRPERSON Yes, certainly. Sir, could you for record purposes tell us your name please? MR MOLOPE My names are Gideon Molope. CHAIRPERSON And what was your relationship to Brigadier Molope, the deceased? MR MOLOPE That's my father. CHAIRPERSON Yes, Mr Molope, you may ask the witness questions. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MOLOPE Mr Masina, I heard from you that you were the commander of that particular unit, you were given orders by Chris Hani to come and kill Mr Molope because he's a puppet of the previous regime. Whilst you were giving evidence I heard you talking about Mr Mokobojane. I'm surprised at why you killed Mr Molope only and not Mr Mokobojane or both. You said you did not kill him, you were a commander. You were military trained in foreign countries ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Sorry, I think, Mr Molope, that we've got a question, let's answer that otherwise the question will get too long and we will forget all that has been asked. I think at this stage if you could answer the question which is: You identified two people and you mentioned Brigadier Molope and Mr Mokobojane as being, as said by yourself: "enemies of the people" and now you've only testified to the killing of Brigadier Molope, why did you not target and carry out an operation against the other person? MR MASINA Mokobojane was a target as well. If we had a chance to eliminate him we would have done, but immediately after this he left Winterveld and we never managed to get hold of him. We never knew what happened to him or where he went to. CHAIRPERSON Yes, Mr Molope, you can continue. MR MOLOPE Where you found him you were looking for him, is that so? MR MASINA That's correct. MR MOLOPE Why did you not look for Mr Mokobojane? MR MASINA We were looking for him but we couldn't get him. Maybe if we were not arrested on time, maybe we would have got hold of him as well. MR MOLOPE Were you arrested? MR MASINA That's correct. MR MOLOPE When? MR MASINA In 1986. MR MOLOPE What were you arrested for? MR MASINA We were arrested for other things that we had done. MR MOLOPE Not about Molope's death? MR MASINA No, we were not - we were arrested for Molope's issue as well but we were not charged for it. MR MOLOPE I don't understand you. MR MASINA I say, we were arrested regarding Molope's matter as well but we were not, the South African Police did not charge us regarding that matter. They told us that it would be a Bophutatswana matter. MR MOLOPE I don't understand you. You say that after you killed him you were arrested. I asked you what you were arrested for and then you said you were arrested for other cases and not for Molope's case. Now you're saying the South African Police said that case would be dealt with by Bophutatswana. I'm talking about Molope's case, not about other cases. When you answered me you said you were not arrested, but you say the South African Police said that that case would be dealt with by the Boputhatswana Department of Justice. Can you answer the question directly? MR MASINA Your question is, were we arrested regarding Molope's matter. I'm saying that it was not only Molope's issue but the South African Police did not charge us regarding Molope's issue, they just told us that it's a Bophutatswana matter. CHAIRPERSON Mr Molope, at that time the courts in South African wouldn't have had the jurisdiction to try an offence which was then committed in a then different country, that is why that charge relating to your father would have to have been processed and handled by the Bophutatswana authorities and not the South African authorities. MR MOLOPE In other words, if I understand you correctly, about the incident you were not arrested? They did not arrest you for this particular case? MR MASINA Yes, we were never charged for Molope's issue but the South African Police were aware that we assassinated Molope, after being tortured by them. MR MOLOPE You said Chris Hani is the one who gave you orders to tell members of your unit to kill Molope? MR MASINA That's correct. MR MOLOPE That is to say that the work which you used to do and the way you have told me, you did not only kill Mr Molope? MR MASINA That's correct. MR MOLOPE Where are you working presently? MR MASINA I'm working for NIA. MR MOLOPE I don't understand you. MR MASINA I'm working for the National Intelligence Agency. MR MOLOPE Why do you ask for forgiveness for what you have done? MR MASINA I'm asking for amnesty because things have changed, they are not like before. And taking somebody's life is not an easy thing as such. I know that many people are disturbed by this and I know that nobody would like a person. Everyone has got their enemies. I know that no matter the fact that Molope was a bad element to the other people of South Africa, but those who loved him endeared him and therefore we are bound to ask for amnesty because of the situation that was a war which was prevailing at the time. MR MOLOPE We, the next of kin to the deceased, we accept that that was your work, as you explained that Mr Chris Hani did that. It is for the first time we hear this information. All this time we did not know what happened. The way you express yourself, this was your work and that is why I said to you you did not kill Mr Molope only. We dispute your application for amnesty. We are suffering even now, we are still crying for him, we are still bereaved. It shows that that was your work or your profession. You were instructed by your seniors and we are suffering, we as members of the family. You were not arrested and it is for the first time we hear of this information and that hurts us, so we are rejecting your application for amnesty. They may give you amnesty if they would do so. Even if we say we reject your amnesty and if they are going to give you amnesty they will do so. You are working now, you are working at a good job which I cannot afford to be in that position which you are in. If my father was still alive he would try to do good things for us. You have benefited for what you have done, now you are asking us to forgive you. Those who forgive will do so or maybe God will forgive you but we will not forgive you because you were not arrested for this case and then you have killed our father. Thank you Mr Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MOLOPE CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Molope. Mr van den Berg, do you have any re-examination? MR VAN DEN BERG None, Mr Chairman. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR VAN DEN BERG CHAIRPERSON Advocate Bosman, do you have any questions you wish to put to the witness? ADV BOSMAN Thank you Chairperson. Mr Masina, did you ever know Mr Molope personally? MR MASINA No, I did not know him personally. ADV BOSMAN Did you have anything against him personally, apart from his political views? MR MASINA No, I did not hate him personally but just because he was an enemy. ADV BOSMAN Thank you Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Advocate Motata, do you have any questions? ADV MOTATA Yes, Mr Chairman. Mr Masina, you say you received training and you mentioned further that you received further training, general training in other words, and thereafter you did a communication course. What did this training of your entail? MR MASINA Are you talking about the communication? ADV MOTATA Let's start with the general training, the further training you received generally, briefly. MR MASINA General training lasts nine months where you are taught tactics of guerrilla warfare and once you've finished that if the organisation feels that you can go for further training then they send you for any other training where you can specialise. ADV MOTATA Now you mentioned that you were once based in Swaziland where you assisted people from South Africa and people to infiltrate South Africa. I want to you just explain to us, whilst you were in exile how could you assist people to get into exile? MR MASINA I used to take them from exile and assist them with jumping the fence in Swaziland to infiltrate South Africa and leave them wherever, where they would get public transport in South Africa and then I would go back. ADV MOTATA The infiltration which eventually brought you to the subject matter of today, were you told by Chris Hani that you should specifically go to the Winterveld area or South Africa in general, were you deployed to a certain area in other words? MR MASINA We decided where we wanted to be deployed and we opted for Winterveld. ADV MOTATA And prior to your departure, because the Winterveld Massacre had occurred, were you told by Chris Hani when you selected Winterveld that you should concentrate on Molope? MR MASINA No, they didn't say that we should focus on Molope only. ADV MOTATA Other than the massacre of the eleven people in March 1986 you mentioned that Molope was bad, were you specifically just referring to the massacre or were there other general things which Molope was bad about? MR MASINA Nothing that I'm aware of other than the massacre of 1986. Maybe the fact that he was in the Bantustan(?) Government might have been one of the things but there were some policemen in the Bantustan who were good and we wouldn't do anything to them. ADV MOTATA The escapee, Mokobojane, you said these people were bad, you spoke inclusively. If we may just ask what was bad about Mokobojane, did he massacre people in Winterveld as well? MR MASINA He was second in command of Molope. They concurred in many things, him and Molope. ADV MOTATA Just a last one Mr Masina. I heard you - correct me if I'm mistaken, that after you had identified, after your reconnaissance of the whereabouts of Mr Molope you went back to Botswana to get your final orders, did you actually go out and come back the second time? MR MASINA That's correct Sir. ADV MOTATA Thank you Mr Chairman, I've got no further questions. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Advocate Sigodi, do you have any questions? ADV SIGODI No questions, thank you. CHAIRPERSON Mr van den Berg, do you have any questions arising from questions that have been put by the panel? MR VAN DEN BERG I have none Mr Chairman. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR VAN DEN BERG CHAIRPERSON Mr Mpshe? ADV MPSHE None Mr Chairman, thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MPSHE CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Masina, you may stand down. MR MASINA Thank you. WITNESS EXCUSED MR VAN DEN BERG Mr Chairman, it was my intention to call Mr Masango. I note that we've worked right through tea. We did start late, so I don't know if this would be an appropriate time to adjourn for a short period. I also note that family of the late Brigadier are somewhat distressed and it might be an appropriate time for them just to take a break. CHAIRPERSON Do you just want a short adjournment, because we have wasted quite a lot of time, when I say wasted, not intentionally but a bit of time has been wasted or lost this morning and I think we should try to catch up. We can take a short adjournment now, let's say just until 12 o'clock or very shortly thereafter and then we'll go through to the lunch adjournment and then proceed again. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS