amntrans AMNESTY HEARING 1998-08-11 CARLTONVILLE 1 MASOBA KHUNTWANA HENDRIK VAN ROOYEN https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=52798&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1998/98081112_crl_carlton1.htm MR KOOPEDI May I find out if you would prefer calling the next applicant now? CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] MR KOOPEDI As it pleases the Commission. We will call the next applicant. MR VAN ROOYEN (sworn states) MR KOOPEDI May I explain, Honourable Chair, that the applicant prefers to give evidence in Sotho and that is why you may have missed: "So help me God", it was said in Sotho. CHAIRPERSON What are his full names? MASOBA KHUNTWANA HENDRIK VAN ROOYEN It's Masoba Khuntwana Hendrik van Rooyen. CHAIRPERSON Yes, do carry on. MR KOOPEDI Thank you Chair. CHAIRPERSON I think that you may not have to cover the entire ground that was covered by the previous applicant, except to the extent that he may have a version which might in some way be different from what the previous applicant has said. MR KOOPEDI May I take the Honourable Commission into my confidence, that we in fact discussed this matter with Advocate Steenkamp, my learned friend, and I did advise him that I do not intend repeating what is not necessary and most probably what one would do will be to deal with his personal details and then get to the events of the day. CHAIRPERSON Yes. EXAMINATION BY MR KOOPEDI As it pleases. Where do you stay? MR VAN ROOYEN I'm staying in Kutsaong, in Carltonville. MR KOOPEDI At the moment where are you? MR VAN ROOYEN At this time I'm in the Potchefstroom Prison. MR KOOPEDI Why are you at the prison, have you been convicted of any offence? MR VAN ROOYEN I was sentenced for two accounts of murder. MR KOOPEDI It appears you're battling Mr Chair? Would you name the two deceased persons? MR VAN ROOYEN It was KK Nxaku and Sedisa. INTERPRETER Can you hear me? MR KOOPEDI I think we're having problems with the interpretation. INTERPRETER Can you hear us now, the interpretation? Is the interpretation coming through? CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR KOOPEDI We will proceed. Now you say you have been convicted for two counts of murder, I had asked who are the two victims, who are the two people who died? MR VAN ROOYEN It's KK Nxaku and Sedisa. MR KOOPEDI Where and when were you convicted? MR VAN ROOYEN It was on the 19th of June in 1992 in Johannesburg Supreme Court in Pritchard Street. MR KOOPEDI Is it correct that you have applied for amnesty? MR VAN ROOYEN Yes, Sir. MR KOOPEDI For what offences have you applied for amnesty? MR VAN ROOYEN On these two accounts of murder. MR KOOPEDI Now the amnesty was applied for for the two murders referring to the KK Nxaku and the Sedisa matters? MR VAN ROOYEN That's correct Sir. MR KOOPEDI Now you've heard what your co-applicant, Mr Mokoena has told this Honourable Committee inasfar as the background relating to the gangsters, is there anything you think you want to add to that? MR VAN ROOYEN Yes, I would like to add something. MR KOOPEDI ...[indistinct] would you want to confirm what he said or perhaps deny it? MR VAN ROOYEN There is just one thing I want to add on what he has already said. I heard him - I want to tell them exactly who killed who. MR KOOPEDI My point now was in relation to the background on the gangsters which it's alleged that the two deceased persons belonged to. We will get to the stage where we speak about the actual killing of the two deceased. What we need to know is, on the background, on the events before perhaps the assault on your comrade, Mokome, is there anything that you want to add or bring to the attention of the Honourable Committee here? MR VAN ROOYEN Yes, there is. MR KOOPEDI Okay, please do that. MR VAN ROOYEN In 1989 I was not a student then, I was just a member of the youth in the township. On a Monday I saw children returning from school and Mokoena told me that one of their colleagues was stabbed by a gangster member. I asked him which gang was responsible for this and he told me about KK, Twala and Big Five's gang. This gang was well-known in the township and the students said that this group must be hunted down and handed over to the police. The community of Kutsaong at large went out on this search but in vain, we never found them. We reported this matter to the police and it was just left with the police. In 1991, the very same gang - I was with my fellow colleagues in the Interim Committee of the ANC Youth League there and Cassius Mahuma was the General Secretary and I was the Organiser Secretary. He told me that the very same gang robbed him and pointed at him with a gun. At the very same year in August 1991, Matsaba's family were attacked by the very same gang and that is when a child died in this event. In September before ...[intervention] INTERPRETER Please let the speaker slow down, we cannot get the interpretation clearly. MR KOOPEDI We've noted the interpreters comment, thank you. Perhaps let's centre on the issues around your comrade Mokome, do you know what happened to him and if you can take us through that. MR VAN ROOYEN It was on a Saturday, I was with him, comrade Mokome and comrade Gustaff. We were in Block 8 at comrade Magadi's place. Comrade Mokome - it was about 6 o'clock in the evening, he told us that he had somewhere to go. We asked to accompany him and he agreed because it was his friend's place and there was a party there and we went with comrade Mokome there. As we were sitting there there was this other group in this other room and there were some girls from the same section who were in the other room. As we were sitting there this comrade went to see this friend of his who had invited us to the party, and when he came back he came back with three drinks and put them on the table and comrade Mokome who was stabbed, he left our table and joined this group of girls. As he was sitting amongst these girls, Big Five and Malgas arrived, and when they got there they went straight through to talk to Mr Mokome. As they were talking to Mr Mokome, Big Five drew a knife. As he did that I stood, myself and Gustaff and approached, we approached Big Five and disarmed him, we took his knife from him and we wanted to know why he was doing this. He just said that comrade Mokome shouldn't talk to their girlfriends and comrade Mokome is a very forward person, he shouldn't talk to their girlfriends. We took comrade Mokome away from them and let him join us at our table again. As he was sitting there these gang took these girls away. As we were sitting here in this party, comrade Boyki and comrade Steve van Rooyen came in and Mr Mokome told them about this incident that had just occurred. It was about half an hour as we were sitting there, Mr Mokome told us that he had to go home and we let him go. He was with comrade Kati ...[intervention] ADV DE JAGER Sorry, could you kindly go a little bit slower. MR VAN ROOYEN Comrade Mokome left with comrade Sekome and this was in Block 8 but we are staying in Block 7. Comrade Mokome left with Sekome to Block 7. We were still at the party that was being thrown by comrade Mokome's friend. Myself, comrade Steve and comrade Boyki and comrade Gustaff had remained. The four of us had remained in the party, comrade Mokome and Sekome had left to comrade Mokome's house. As we were sitting there, comrade Sekome came back and when he arrived he told us about the attack of comrade Mokome. Having heard that we left to see where this happened. When we got there we found comrade Mokome covered with a blanket and he was in a pool of blood. I uncovered him to see how much injuries had he sustained. He wasn't saying anything, he was just lying in this pool of blood. We covered him again. We were busy looking for a car and other comrades were there already. His family were looking for a car to take him to the hospital and we were standing by as comrades. We discussed this matter and the issue of this gang, that they have committed so many crimes in the township and in the section and all of these have been reported to the police but they are not taking any action, therefore it is better for us as comrades of the ANC Youth League and the comrades in Block 7, to go out and search for these criminal gangs so that we would hand them over to the community that would in turn hand them over to the police. We got information that this gang was being accompanied by the two girls that Mokome was chatting to at the party. The one was a border at Mokome's house. We discussed this and we decided that we should find this lady and she should show us where this gang stays in the township. We went to Joel's place and when we got there, Joel himself is the one who - when we entered Joel's yard we proceeded straight to the shack where Rebecca and her parents were staying. Joel is the one who knocked in that shack and Bafadile is the one who opened the door and explained exactly what happened and even asked her that we needed to buy Bafadile's help to go and show us where this gang stayed. It's her mother who opened the door and who Joel was talking to, and she gave us the permission to take her with. We left with her and went to the tavern called: "White House" where they used to drink, and another tavern which is Lebitsos, when we got there, and when we got to the taxi rank we met, we found a kombi and comrade Steve asked the driver to help us but he can only help us until 11 o'clock because he knocks off. He helped us, he took us with this girl and we went to a tavern called: "Blue Lagoon". When we got to the Blue Lagoon tavern we were told that this gang has just stabbed another comrade called Darkie, who was staying in the Xhosa section in the township, they have just stabbed him. They started with comrade Darkie and that is when we decided or we saw that this gang is quite determined to terrorise all the comrades in the township. From the tavern we proceeded to Spurs Tavern and we found nobody there. We came back to search for this gang at their homes, their families and relatives, but we never found them. On our way, still in this kombi, we were intimidated by BafAdile and told her that she will take full responsibility for comrade Mokome's death: "You'll be the one who will be arrested unless you help us or tell us". That is when she told us that these people when they are not here in Kutsaong they are in Bekkersdal, they've got a shack there in the X section. We took her back home. We did nothing to her and even her mother was happy with her. Having taken her back home, we thanked the driver of the kombi and we went to Leboneng at the same night of the 7th and we had to discuss what to do further, as we got the information that these people, if they are not here they run to Bekkersdal because nobody seems to be able to arrest them. Therefore we must meet the following day at 8 o'clock in the morning and we should go and search for these people in Bekkersdal. Yes, we went separate ways to sleep there. The following day I had to go with the Interim Committee of the ANC Youth League as we had a meeting that we had to attend in Gagiso in Krugersdorp. I did not go there because Gordon Mahuma who is the comrade's secretary, came to me and said that we had to go, but I told him exactly what happened yesterday. I told him what happened the previous night and what our intention, as the comrades of Block 7, have decided to do. We were going to catch those people and bring them to the community that will decide whether they hand them to the police or not. I told comrade Mahuma to put in an apology for me in the meeting. He did so but he never told me what the response was of the committee. I went where the comrades had gathered and I found comrade Steven van Rooyen who was telling the other comrades that were not there the previous day, as to what happened. On my arrival I told them that I've met comrade General Secretary, Gordon Mahuma and I told him everything that happened yesterday and our intentions as comrades of Block 7 and he will in turn report this to the Interim Committee when he meets. That is when we decided - as the comrade has already mentioned, we were between 30 and 35 in number, we decided to go to Bekkersdal and we could not all go, only 17 could go. We were 12 ANC Youth League members and we had five young pioneers. That is when Joel Mokoena and Morupisi went to negotiate at the taxi rank two kombis which they came with but he told us that the drivers just wanted petrol ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON I think we can stop him about that because we've had that version. We've heard that so that is quite alright. Just proceed further. MR KOOPEDI Like it has been indicated by the Chair, we have heard about the negotiations about the taxi and that 17 people left. Now if you could lead us to when you get to Bekkersdal, what happens when you get to Bekkersdal? MR VAN ROOYEN When we arrived at Bekkersdal, we went to Mandela Section. That is where I knew comrade Bazuka who was the President of the ANC Youth League at that time in Mandela Section. At Bekkersdal we went straight to him with our two kombis. Comrade Boyki alighted from the kombi. Comrade Bazuka asked him: "What are you here for"?, then he explained to him that: "We are here in Bekkersdal because we are looking for gangsters who have committed a crime in our township, and we learnt that they escaped to your place". He asked us as to what kind of help he can give ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Can you skip those details considering that we've got them already? MR KOOPEDI We have travelled that path with the first applicant and basically that is why earlier on when I was trying to get you to confirm certain things, you know what he said. Now I believe you will agree that after leaving Bazuka's place people went to search and further that you went into two groups, do you agree with that, can you confirm that? Now after being into two groups and you went searching for these people, what happened? In which group were you? ADV DE JAGER You could actually lead him. If you go too far we will object to leading questions but you could lead him in order to come to the point. CHAIRPERSON Especially where the issues that have already been - we've heard re-version already. You're putting it rightly as far as he is concerned: "There were two group, which group did you belong to"? Let's get that. MR KOOPEDI Thank you Chair, I will take it from there. Now there were these two groups, in one group we had the first applicant, Mr Mokoena, were you in the same group with him or in the other group? MR VAN ROOYEN In our group we were working on foot. MR KOOPEDI And were you in the same group with Mr Mokoena or were you with the other group? MR VAN ROOYEN I was in the same group with Mr Mokoena and Mokoena is the first applicant. MR KOOPEDI You were in the same group with Mokoena. Mokoena is the first applicant, Mr Chair. Now when was the first time you saw the deceased people, the two deceased person, that is on that day, when did you see them, or did you see them at all? MR VAN ROOYEN I saw them at the time when we were in the veld when we were fighting and then I started to see who they were. When we arrived there these people dispersed, then these two ran away to the veld. Steve and Boyki and myself, that's whilst we started to chase them and Steve was in front. Whilst we were chasing them they jumped the fence. MR KOOPEDI Now when you started to give chase, did you know whom you were chasing? MR VAN ROOYEN When we started to chase them ...[intervention] MR KOOPEDI That is when your group which included the first applicant, when you started to give chase, you personally did you know whom you were chasing or were you just following? MR VAN ROOYEN I knew which people we were chasing ...[intervention] MR KOOPEDI Which means you had seen the people you were looking for, you knew that these were the people. Alright, now we've heard evidence that the chase went through the veld into a mine premises. Now when you got into the mine premises, could you tell the Commission what happened then and if you could try and restrict yourself to what you did. MR VAN ROOYEN When we arrived at the mine, those people started fighting. Comrade Steve and Joel were fighting them. Bafino drew a knife. I had a knife with me on my person and when he drew a knife I drew a knife. I tried to talk to him that: "We are not going to fight you, we are just coming to fetch you so that you can explain to us what happened yesterday". That is when he drew a knife and started attacking, and that's when I began to stab him. MR KOOPEDI Now who is Bafino? MR VAN ROOYEN ...(no English translation) MR KOOPEDI That's right. When the first applicant, Mokoena was involved with KK, you were involved with the other deceased person? MR VAN ROOYEN Yes. MR KOOPEDI Okay. Now this is what I think the Honourable Commission has not heard and would like to take you through that. Now when you got to Bafino inside these mine premises, did you speak to him at all? MR VAN ROOYEN Yes, I did. MR KOOPEDI What did you say to him? MR VAN ROOYEN I said to him: "Bafino, we are not here to fight ...[inaudible] yesterday in the township". He said: "We are not going to listen to you" and then he drew a knife and I drew my knife also. From there he approached me, he wanted to run away and then I stabbed him on the back of the shoulder. Gustaff was present at that time. Then he approached again, then I swerved away. I could see that this person was fighting and then I stabbed him again. After I stabbed him he fell on the ground with his knife, then we continued to stab him. MR KOOPEDI Now who, other than you and your co-applicant Morupisi, can you remember anyone else who was involved with this deceased? MR VAN ROOYEN The late comrade Tebogo was present. MR KOOPEDI Okay. What did Tebogo do to the deceased? MR VAN ROOYEN He kicked him. MR KOOPEDI Now who else stabbed the deceased? We're talking about the second deceased. MR VAN ROOYEN The second deceased? MR KOOPEDI Yes, the one that you were involved with. Other than you, is there anyone else who stabbed him? MR VAN ROOYEN That's comrade Morupisi. ...[no English translation] which was owned by the deceased. CHAIRPERSON Give us that name again, comrade who also stabbed the deceased? MR VAN ROOYEN Comrade Morupisi, that is Gustaff. MR KOOPEDI Okay. Other than the two of you, did anyone else stab him? MR VAN ROOYEN No. ADV DE JAGER Is he present, this comrade Morupisi? Is he present, is one of the applicants or isn't he an applicant? MR VAN ROOYEN Yes, he's among us, he is an applicant. ADV DE JAGER ...[inaudible] INTERPRETER The speaker's mike is not on. ADV DE JAGER Applicant number 5? CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you. MR KOOPEDI What stopped the stabbing on the deceased, what stopped the stabbing and the assault, what made you to stop? MR VAN ROOYEN What made me to stop is when I saw that he was lying on the ground, therefore we stopped stabbing. That is the reason why we stopped, because he was on the ground. MR KOOPEDI What happened thereafter? MR VAN ROOYEN Other comrades arrived and saw them lying, then be boarded our kombis and others went on foot because we went to the other kombi which was parked on the other side, then we went back to the township. In the evening, as the organisation's secretary, I was supposed to report to the Committee and on Monday we reported to the General Secretary about what happened in Bekkersdal. MR KOOPEDI Who is this secretary that you talk about? MR VAN ROOYEN That is Mr Mahuma. MR KOOPEDI Okay. You have, like you co-applicant, the first applicant, mentioned one Mr Nzeku and Mr Ramagotedi and on a section where you are asked whether any orders were given, now I would like to take you through that. Were you given any orders by anyone to go and search for these people or even kill them? MR VAN ROOYEN To tell the truth, comrade Nzeku and comrade Ramagotedi never gave us orders, we were given those mandates by the comrades. MR KOOPEDI Okay. Now why did you mention their names, why did you refer to them? MR VAN ROOYEN The reason for me to mention those two names is because I wanted them to come and tell the Commission about the situation which prevailed in our area, which affected our youth, the situation which we lived under in our area during that time and as to whether they know about this incident. That is why I mentioned their names in my application. MR KOOPEDI Okay. Now your actions, the ones for which you are applying for amnesty, do you consider that as having been motivated by a political objective? MR VAN ROOYEN Yes, they are politically motivated. MR KOOPEDI Would you explain why you think this was politically motivated? MR VAN ROOYEN Because this gang, it was not the first time they did those things, to stab people, to rob people and to rape. Because of those reasons which we stated in there, those were the reasons which influenced us to the extent that we came to a point where we killed those people because they had a gun. MR KOOPEDI Now is there anything that you have not told this Honourable Committee, in relation to this matter? Have you disclosed all the truth in this matter? MR VAN ROOYEN I haven't left out any bit of the truth about this incident. MR KOOPEDI Other than what we have asked you and perhaps what the fist applicant has said, is there anything that you would wish to bring to the attention of this Honourable Committee or say to the Committee? MR VAN ROOYEN Yes. Firstly what I want to say is that I want to thank the Committee of the TRC to give me this opportunity to state before this Committee. Mainly members of the families, friends and the community at large, that what I did is a mistake. I want to thank this Committee, if it wasn't because of this Committee what I'm saying today could not have been known. To this Committee I want to thank them and together with the parent of Bafino and KK, I want to ask them for forgiveness because it was not my intention to do what I did with their children even though I understand their pain. MR KOOPEDI That will be the case for the applicant for now, Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KOOPEDI CHAIRPERSON We will take the adjournment now and resume at 2 o'clock. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION CHAIRPERSON May he reminded that he is still under oath. MASOBA KHUNTWANA HENDRIK VAN ROOYEN (s.u.o.) CHAIRPERSON Mr Steenkamp? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR STEENKAMP Thank you Mr Chairman. Sir, do I understand you correctly, that the killing of the deceased was a decision made among yourselves, you did have any orders to do so at all? MR VAN ROOYEN ...[no English translation] CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] any decision taken to kill. MR STEENKAMP Sorry, yes. CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] INTERPRETER The speaker's mike is not on. CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] the situation developed which resulted in the stabbing or the killing, without there being any formal decision to do so. MR STEENKAMP I'll leave it at that Sir. MR VAN ROOYEN May we proceed? MR STEENKAMP Can you maybe explain to the Committee, how do you link or how can you link your actions to any kind of political motive? Is it possible to do that, can you explain to us? MR VAN ROOYEN What we did was political because this gang that we are talking about and to which these two people belonged, did atrocities to the community. As I've already said, I was an Organising Secretary of the Youth League, I knew these people. I knew them because of their horrible deeds that I've already mentioned in front of the TRC. MR STEENKAMP Than I'm also asked to ask you, can you tell the Committee what happened to the bodies of the deceased? Did you just leave them there or what happened to them, do you know? MR VAN ROOYEN We left them there where we stabbed them. MR STEENKAMP Would you agree with applicant number 1 that this attack or killing that you embarked on was an act of self-defence? MR VAN ROOYEN According to me this was not done for revenge but to defend ourselves because these people were fighting but our intention was to catch them. MR STEENKAMP Can you just give me the proper names or can you indicate to us who exactly was involved in the killing of the first deceased and who exactly was involved in the killing of the second deceased? MR VAN ROOYEN Deceased number 1 - I'm the one who killed deceased number 2, but deceased number 1 was comrade Steve and the comrade who has just spoken here and comrade Maumakwe who had a role in his death. As I've already said, I was busy with Bafino, the second one, myself and comrade Maumakwe. MR STEENKAMP And when you reported - did you report this back to the ANC Youth League? MR VAN ROOYEN As I've already said, on Sunday I was supposed to report back as the Organising Secretary but I could not because the committee was not back from the meeting, therefore I reported to the comrade's secretary on Monday as to what happened in Bekkersdal. MR STEENKAMP And what was his reaction? MR VAN ROOYEN He told us that what we have done is an offence and I told him that I do agree with him because we were to catch these people, not kill them. MR STEENKAMP Did he indicate to you whether or not this action which you committed or the deed which you committed was not within the framework of the ANC Youth League's police, or guidelines or mandate? MR VAN ROOYEN As I've already said, I was the Organising Secretary of the ANC Youth League, the Interim Committee in the township. According to the constitution we were not allowed to kill, therefore that is why I came here today to say that I made a mistake and we committed an offence, it was not the wish of the organisation to kill. MR STEENKAMP Thank you Mr Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STEENKAMP ADV DE JAGER Why was Mr Mokome attacked by the gang? I'm going back to his home or wherever he was going at that stage. MR VAN ROOYEN I don't know why they attacked him, but what I heard about this gang is that they were terrorising youth in the township that were against their deeds and as the organisation members. I think that is why they stabbed him. ADV DE JAGER Didn't they earlier that evening have an argument with him about girls? MR VAN ROOYEN This very same thug, he did say that this gentleman should not talk to his girlfriend. We didn't argue with him, we just disarmed him, took his knife, and then they went away. ADV DE JAGER And then it seems as though they had been waiting for Mr Mokome to come out, and attack him on his way home, after leaving? MR VAN ROOYEN What I know is, we took their knife in Block A and comrade Mokome was stabbed in our Block 7. As to whether they were lying in wait for him, that I'm not sure of. ADV DE JAGER Did he at any stage tell you why they attacked him? MR VAN ROOYEN What he just said to me is that they said he is a comrade and he is interfering with their duties in the township, of robbing spaza shops and terrorising everybody. ADV DE JAGER Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Any re-examination? MR KOOPEDI Nothing in re-examination, thank you. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR KOOPEDI CHAIRPERSON Yes, you are excused, thank you very much. WITNESS EXCUSED