amntrans AMNESTY HEARING 1998-08-11 CARLTONVILLE DAY 1 GUSTAFF MATSHOGO MORUPISI https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=52801&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1998/98081112_crl_carlton1.htm MR STEENKAMP Mr Chairperson, the next application is on page 44 till 59. CHAIRPERSON What are your full names please? GUSTAFF MATSHOGO MORUPISI (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Yes, sit down. EXAMINATION BY MR KOOPEDI Is it correct that you are presently serving a prison sentence and are housed at the Potchefstroom prison? MR MORUPISI That is correct. MR KOOPEDI You've had the benefit of listening to your co-applicants' evidence, do you confirm what they said inasfar as the background leading to the death of the two deceased persons? MR MORUPISI That is correct. MR KOOPEDI Now, let us go to the mine premises at Bekkersdal, is it correct that you were present also? MR MORUPISI I was present Sir. MR KOOPEDI Now can you tell this Honourable Committee what you found when you got into the yard and what you did? MR MORUPISI We chased them right towards the mine. In front was Steven van Rooyen and Joel Mokoena and Hendrik van Rooyen. When I arrived there they had already started fighting and I went to Chaba to help him, who was fighting with KK and both drew their knives. He tried to fight until Chaba was able to stab him and then when he tried to stab Chaba I kicked him and then he stabbed him again until he couldn't fight. MR KOOPEDI Who is Chaba, for the benefit of the Honourable Committee? MR MORUPISI That is Hendrik van Rooyen. MR KOOPEDI Honourable Chairperson, you will note that we have many names but we are trying very hard to limit the use of other names. CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] MR KOOPEDI Thank you. Now on this deceased person, the one that you were involved with, how many of you were there? How many of you were fighting or assaulting him? MR MORUPISI Whilst we continued Tebogo arrived and we became three. We kicked until we say that he was not fighting anymore. MR KOOPEDI Now his knife, that is the deceased's knife, what happened to it? MR MORUPISI After we stabbed him we took it. MR KOOPEDI Now he ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON You say: "We stabbed him", how many of you stabbed him with that particular knife? MR MORUPISI Those who stabbed him, we were two. CHAIRPERSON How many stabbed him with that particular knife belonging to KK? MR MORUPISI I had my own knife and Chaba had his own knife and he was fighting with his own knife. We took his knife after we finished with him. MR KOOPEDI It is your evidence before this Committee that you did not disarm him first, you fought with him and it was only after he had fell down that one of you took his knife? MR MORUPISI That is correct. MR KOOPEDI Now the act at the mine premises, what political motivation can you attribute to that? MR MORUPISI Can you repeat your question again? MR KOOPEDI The attack on this deceased person, can you attribute any political motive or objective to it? MR MORUPISI Yes. MR KOOPEDI And what is that? MR MORUPISI Our intention was not to kill these people, it was to take these people and bring them back to the community where they stayed because they were not staying in Bekkersdal, they were staying in Carltonville. After they had done their criminal act they ran to Burgersdorp and we went there to chase them because we got the information and we wanted to bring them back to our township in Carltonville. Our intention never materialised because those people were armed, then we started fighting with them. MR KOOPEDI Okay. Now inasfar as you can recollect, is there anything that you have not brought to the attention of this Committee? Have you told this Honourable Committee the whole truth? MR MORUPISI All has been said by my fellow applicants and then I've already said my bit and that is all. MR KOOPEDI Okay. Now just to wrap up, is there anything that you would want to say to the Honourable Committee? MR MORUPISI Sorry, I can't understand you. MR KOOPEDI I will lead you to it. When we spoke before we started this morning, there was something mentioned to me about forgiveness, do you remember that? MR MORUPISI Yes. MR KOOPEDI Would you say that yourself and tell this Honourable Committee about what forgiveness you were talking about? MR MORUPISI Firstly, I thank the Committee for giving me this opportunity to state my case about what I've done together with my comrades. We were compelled by the situation. I'm directing this mainly to the families of the deceased and together with their friends. We did not do a good thing and that is why I am before this Committee to ask for forgiveness. MR KOOPEDI Chair, that will be this applicants case for now. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KOOPEDI CHAIRPERSON Any questions? MR STEENKAMP Just two questions Mr Chairman. Sir, we've hear how you kicked the deceased, how you attacked him with an iron bar and how you stabbed him until he wasn't moving anymore and you are saying today your intention was not to kill him, are you still sticking to that version? MR MORUPISI I don't know whether you are talking about the first deceased or the second deceased. MR STEENKAMP Both of them. MR MORUPISI I'll put it this way, our intention to go to Bekkersdal was disturbed after he drew a gun and drew the knife, that is when we started to fight until we were able to injure them. MR STEENKAMP And them maybe, please help me if I'm wrong, but it sounded to me that your version about the stabbing is totally the opposite to what the previous applicant testified. He testified that the first deceased was killed with his own knife and the stabbing only started when his knife was taken from him. You indicated now he was only stabbed with his own knife after or during the assault or the fight with him ...[intervention] ADV DE JAGER He's indicating he wasn't stabbed with his own knife, he was stabbed with the persons who went to arrest him, his co-applicants had their own knives. MR STEENKAMP I'm sorry Mr Chairman. MR STEENKAMP If I'm wrong I'm ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] clear. MR STEENKAMP Can you clear - sorry, Mr Chairman. Can you clear that up? As I understood the previous applicant, he testified that after the deceased's knife was taken from him he was basically stabbed with his own knife, do you agree with that? MR MORUPISI Whilst they were fighting there I was not present, on the first applicant, on the first deceased. I was on Bafino. I saw later, after they had finished. MR STEENKAMP I know you were not present at the killing of first deceased but you were present at the scene, and on your own version you gave us an account of what you saw, didn't you see anything that happened to the first deceased at all or what exactly did you see? MR MORUPISI I saw him at the time whilst he was still fighting with Steven and Joel. I was concentrating on Bafino, I didn't see what happened later on the first deceased. I saw him lying on the ground. MR STEENKAMP Was anything taken from any of the deceased of the fighting stopped or after they were killed? MR MORUPISI Yes. MR STEENKAMP Can you tell us what that was? MR MORUPISI That is a jungle knife. MR STEENKAMP Anything else that was taken? MR MORUPISI On the first one we took a gun and a knife and on the second one, when he fell on the ground we took his knife. MR STEENKAMP Do you know what happened to the gun and the knife? Was it destroyed, what happened to it? MR MORUPISI The gun was taken by Joel and he gave it to a certain comrade, I don't know what happened to it later. MR STEENKAMP Why was that done, was it done in an attempt to cover up the scene or to move the evidence from the scene, why was that done? MR MORUPISI We were not trying to destroy the evidence, we took them with us. MR STEENKAMP But why Sir, why was there a reason to do so? MR MORUPISI We just ended up taking them with us. MR STEENKAMP But you can't give an explanation for that? MR MORUPISI No, Sir. MR STEENKAMP So then the question I've asked the other applicants, can you explain to the Committee what you understand about the political motive, seen in the context of this incident? MR MORUPISI May you repeat your question Sir? MR STEENKAMP Can you explain to me what was the political motive for the killing of both the deceased? Do you understand the question Sir? MR MORUPISI Firstly we wanted to stop crime in our township, we wanted to establish peace in our township. We wanted everybody to come forward so that we would be able to run the affairs of the ANC Youth League the way it is acceptable, so that we will be able to have anything which we did not have before. MR STEENKAMP And by killing both the deceased, that was the way to do it? Do I understand you correctly? MR MORUPISI Politics don't allow us to kill. We did not want to achieve our political objective by killing, it happened accidentally because of the situation which we were in. MR STEENKAMP My last question to you Sir is that clearly, at least that's the way I understand it, at least deceased number 1 was killed while he was totally unarmed, he actually tried to get away from his pursuers who chased him, hunted him down, unarmed him and then killed him. Is that what happened? MR MORUPISI No. MR STEENKAMP Why are you saying: "No", can you explain that to us? MR MORUPISI Yes, we chased after them when they were running away. Whilst I was still at the back I saw them stopping. After that I saw them start fighting. When I arrived there Bafino and Chaba drew knives and started fighting. I was helping comrade Chaba up to the time we started to stab him and then when he fell on the ground we started kicking him and then we took his knife and left him there because he was injured. MR STEENKAMP Thank you Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STEENKAMP CHAIRPERSON I may not have taken your evidence down correctly, I'm not too clear whether you were engaged in the attack on the first deceased or on Bafino. I get the impression that you joined the group that attacked the first deceased and at the same time I find you saying that you were with Bafino when he was attacked. Which is the position? MR MORUPISI I was fighting with Bafino. I never got involved with the first deceased. CHAIRPERSON And were you armed with a knife? MR MORUPISI Yes, Sir. CHAIRPERSON And who else was with you in the attack on Bafino? MR MORUPISI It was myself and Hendrik van Rooyen and Tebogo came afterwards. CHAIRPERSON There was some evidence that Hendrik van Rooyen was engaged in the attack of the first deceased, is that not correct? MR MORUPISI That's not correct Sir. CHAIRPERSON Alright. So now you and Hendrik van Rooyen were joined by who? MR MORUPISI Sorry? CHAIRPERSON You and Hendrik van Rooyen and who was the third person? MR MORUPISI It's Tebogo. CHAIRPERSON Is he known by any other name? MR MORUPISI That is the only name we know, Tebogo. CHAIRPERSON And how were Tebogo and Hendrik armed? MR MORUPISI Hendrik had a knife, I also had a knife and Tebogo had no knife, he just stoned him and kicked him. MS GCABASHE The evidence is that Tebogo is late, he passed away, what happened to him? MR MORUPISI I don't know, he died in prison. Oh, he died whilst we were in prison, I don't know what happened to him. MS GCABASHE So he was arrested with you and he died in prison? MR MORUPISI No, he was never arrested. MS GCABASHE He wasn't arrested for this particular incident? MR MORUPISI No, he was never arrested. CHAIRPERSON Tebogo died while they were in prison. MS GCABASHE Oh, thank you. Then just one other question. On page 54 in your application, about seven lines from the bottom you say: "The plan was not successful because the police had hid the criminals as they were their friends" Now what evidence did you have of this? MR MORUPISI I will try and explain it in this way. Mostly the crimes that occurred in the community and among the comrades who reported at the police station but the culprits were never arrested, thus convinced me that the policemen befriended these people. MS GCABASHE You have no other evidence? MR MORUPISI No, Sir. MS GCABASHE Thank you. Thank you, Chair. ADV DE JAGER You went there, all of you were armed when you left Carltonville? MR MORUPISI Some were armed, some were not. ADV DE JAGER Well the present applicants, your co-applicants here, were they all armed? MR MORUPISI That's correct Sir. ADV DE JAGER Why did you take arms with you? MR MORUPISI We know the kind of people we are dealing with, they stab and kill, thus we wanted to be able to defend ourselves in case anything forced us to. ADV DE JAGER Yes. So beforehand you knew that you should expect a fight with them? MR MORUPISI We never thought of that. ADV DE JAGER No but that was the reason why you took your weapons with you, because you knew they were gangsters and they would resist, isn't that so? MR MORUPISI We were armed in case they fight back, with the intention to protect ourselves. ADV DE JAGER Yes. And that's exactly what happened, they indeed fought back. MR MORUPISI Yes, Sir. ADV DE JAGER So you weren't surprised when they fought back? MR MORUPISI Yes, we were not surprised because we know their activities. ADV DE JAGER Now how did you plan to re-act on their resistance? MR MORUPISI We were going to defend ourselves in response to their behaviour. ADV DE JAGER And if you could manage to overwhelm them after resistance you will bring them back to Carltonville? MR MORUPISI Yes, we believed that if they had not drawn the firearm we would have brought them back. ADV DE JAGER And the reason why you then didn't bring them back is because the one started drawing the firearm? MR MORUPISI That's correct Sir. ADV DE JAGER And did you then come to a decision to kill them because he drew the firearm? MR MORUPISI Our intention was not to kill them. ADV DE JAGER Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Any re-examination? MR KOOPEDI Nothing in re-examination. CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you very much, you are excused. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON Are you calling any other? MR KOOPEDI Chairperson, there is a sixth applicant here ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] MR KOOPEDI Yes, it is not and I wanted to say that I'm not going to be able to deal with him now, although it appears that it should be my responsibility. From the evidence that has been brought before your Honourable selves, it has struck me that it would only be proper to sum up by calling a witness, Cassius Gordon Mahuma. I've tried to get this witness and I'm advised that he is at work somewhere. If I will be permitted by this Committee I will ask for an adjournment and that we lead the evidence of just this only witness tomorrow and perhaps give summing up argument. As it pleases the Committee. CHAIRPERSON What are the prospects of him coming? MR KOOPEDI Well ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON What are the prospects, does he know that you are looking for him? MR KOOPEDI For now he doesn't know because we tried to send someone who has not come back but I am advised he works in this area, he lives in Kutsaong township and I have a number of people who have undertaken to try and find him and get him here tomorrow. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Mr Steenkamp, is there anything you wish to say on that request? MR STEENKAMP I've got nothing to say on that request Mr Chairman. I was not aware of the witness but from my side I will also assist wherever possible to get the witness here and make sure that we are ready by tomorrow morning. CHAIRPERSON Are you proposing to call any witnesses? MR STEENKAMP I'm not calling any witnesses, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Very well, we will stand this matter down at your request and can we make an earlier beginning than we did yesterday? MR KOOPEDI I suppose the Chair wanted to say earlier than we did today? CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR KOOPEDI I hope that the prison authorities are sitting in and are listening because our main delay was them getting the applicants here. I will talk to my learned friend and we will try and emphasise the need to have the applicants come here earlier. CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] present here? MR STEENKAMP Mr Chairman, ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON In charge of the prisoners? MR STEENKAMP Mr Chairman, the prison authorities actually are here. I would request them to just come forward quickly. CHAIRPERSON Could I speak to the person who is in command? Thank you. What is your name please? SERGEANT ...[inaudible] CHAIRPERSON Sergeant? SERGEANT ...[inaudible] CHAIRPERSON You are from Potchefstroom? SERGEANT ...[inaudible] CHAIRPERSON Are the applicants going to be taken away again to Potchefstroom this evening? SERGEANT ...[inaudible] CHAIRPERSON It is the function of this Committee to commence its hearings not later than half past nine. Yes. And there are time when we even begin at 9 o'clock when it is possible to do so. Now I would like to know from you whether I can get an undertaking from you that we can make a beginning at half past nine tomorrow? SERGEANT ...[inaudible] CHAIRPERSON Can you do that? SERGEANT ...[inaudible] CHAIRPERSON I thank you very, very much, my Committee will be indebted to you if you can do that. Thank you. This matter will stand adjourned until half past nine tomorrow morning. May I enquire whether there is any likelihood of the matter of Boetie Selepe being heard tomorrow morning? MR STEENKAMP Mr Chairman, as far as I am concerned, Mr Chairman, Honourable Members, Mr Selepe is here and I spoke to him earlier this morning. My learned friend I think will be in a better position to advise, but I think he still has to consult with Mr Selepe. Mr Selepe is present as are the victims or the family of the deceased, today. CHAIRPERSON Have you had a chance of talking to Mr Selepe? MR KOOPEDI We just got introduced Honourable Chair, and that's the only thing we did. I hope to consult with him as soon as we adjourn and if possible we will proceed with his application tomorrow. CHAIRPERSON I think you should make use of the time that is available to you just now whilst Mr Selepe is here. Will Mr Selepe come forward please? Is Mr Selepe here? MR STEENKAMP He is present Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Mr Selepe, your matter will only be heard tomorrow morning, will you make sure that you are here in time tomorrow morning please, can you do that? MR SELEPE ...[inaudible] CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you very much. ADV DE JAGER Mr Steenkamp, as you know we should make recommendations if amnesty is granted or even if it's not about the names of victims ...[inaudible] case is concerned. MR STEENKAMP Mr Chairman, there's actually nine next of kin and family members present in the first matter. I've already informed the proper authorities about the correct and full names of the victims that are here present. I've also spoken to a family representative of the families and all the names were given to me earlier this morning. I will make sure that they are formally registered on the TRC's formal list of victims. CHAIRPERSON Well ladies and gentlemen, the Committee will now adjourn unit 09H30 tomorrow morning. MR STEENKAMP As you please Mr Chairman. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS UNTIL 12TH AUGUST 1998