amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1998-08-13 HAMMARSDALE 3 MR DLAMINI https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=52805&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1998/98081114_hmm_hammar3.htm CHAIRPERSON MR STEWART That is so Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Yes, Mr Stewart you can ... MR STEWART I call Mr David Zwele Dlamini. MR DLAMINI (Duly sworn in, states) EXAMINATION BY MR STEWART Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Dlamini you gave evidence previously ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Sorry, just before you proceed, Mr Dlamini, just for purposes of the record is your name David Zwele Dlamini? MR DLAMINI That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR STEWART Mr Dlamini you gave evidence at an earlier sitting of these hearings in Richards Bay, is that right? MR DLAMINI That is correct. MR STEWART At that hearing you dealt with, amongst other things, your training in the Caprivi and the various incidents in which you were involved in the eSikhawini area, is that right? MR DLAMINI That is correct. MR STEWART So Mr Dlamini in your evidence today we will focus on your involvement in this area where we sit today, in the Mpumalanga/Hammarsdale area. Is it right Mr Dlamini that you were born and lived for the first 12 years of your life in the Pietermaritzburg area, where after you moved to Mpumalanga with your family? MR DLAMINI That is correct. MR STEWART And that during your period of schooling at Pezulu High School between 1981 and 1984 you joined and became a member of the Inkatha Youth League in this area, is that right? MR DLAMINI That is correct. MR STEWART Now at that time did you know Mr Zakele Nkeshle? MR DLAMINI Yes I know him.. MR STEWART How did you first come to know him? MR DLAMINI Mr Zakele Nkeshle was a prominent person in the Mpumalanga Township. He was a central committee member of the IFP. That is how I got to know him, and sometimes in schools in Kwa-Zulu Natal Inkatha was a school subject. Therefore he used to visit schools. That is how I got to know him. MR STEWART And did this Mr Nkeshle encourage you in your activities in the Inkatha Youth League? MR DLAMINI MR STEWART You mention in your application affidavit that a power struggle developed between the Youth Leagues aligned to the UDF and the Inkatha Youth League, is that right? MR DLAMINI That is correct. MR STEWART What was the nature of this struggle? MR DLAMINI The struggle between the IFP and the UDF was brought about because of a certain person called Marshall, who used to remove children from school. This led to conflict and Mr Zakele Nkeshle used to try to get the children back to school. That is how the conflict began. MR STEWART Mr Dlamini, what was the nature of the conflict, did it involve fighting, and if so, what kind of fighting? MR DLAMINI We used to stab each other using bush knives, but at that time we did not use guns. MR STEWART Did the local Inkatha leadership know that these were the activities that you and others were involved in? MR DLAMINI Yes they did know, for example Mr Nkeshle. They all knew. MR STEWART MR DLAMINI MR STEWART MR DLAMINI They were pleased about this because at the time we were fighting against the UDF. MR STEWART MR DLAMINI Yes, that is correct. MR STEWART But from there you were taken to what you subsequently learnt was the Caprivi, and you were trained there, is that right? MR DLAMINI That is correct. MR STEWART MR DLAMINI I do not disagree with anything that he said. MR STEWART Mr Khumalo told us about 4 groups that were formed in the advanced stage of the training, and he mentioned that he was in the offensive or counter-intelligence group. Which group were you in Mr Dlamini? MR DLAMINI I was put in the offensive group. MR STEWART And is it right that in that group you were trained in the use of various firearms, in various offensive tactics such as house-clearance and penetration and you were also trained in the use of explosives? MR DLAMINI That is correct. MR STEWART By the time you finished your training in the Caprivi, what idea did you have as to what you must do with that training, what was the purpose of the training, and your understanding? MR DLAMINI As the time went on as we were in the Caprivi area, it became obvious that we were not being trained as policemen as we had been told when our homes. It was clear that we were becoming soldiers of the IFP; we will return to Kwa-Zulu to fight against the UDF. That is what I thought of at the time. MR STEWART After returning from the Caprivi, is it right that at some stage you were also sent for training in Venda? MR DLAMINI That is correct. MR STEWART What were you trained to do in that training? MR DLAMINI I returned from Caprivi, spent some time at home and then I was sent to Venda where I received further training. The training that I received at Venda was about torturing; obtaining information from people; how to obtain such information; what methods you can use to obtain information from people, and also how to stab a person, where to stab him. MR STEWART Who was with you and also being trained at that time in Venda? MR DLAMINI There was a white person known as JP, who was an instructor. MR STEWART MR DLAMINI There were others, I think we were about 50 to 100. MR STEWART Were they also people who had been trained in the Caprivi? MR DLAMINI Yes, that is correct. The entire offensive group was there. MR STEWART MR DLAMINI Yes that is correct. MR STEWART MR DLAMINI That is correct. MR STEWART During your training in the Caprivi and in Venda, did you receive any political training or indoctrination? MR DLAMINI Yes there was, and that all that we were doing we were going to use to fight the ANC and the UDF. The training that we underwent was supposed to help us in fighting against the UDF and the ANC. MR STEWART MR STEWART Were you at that time proper members of the Kwa-Zulu Police Force? MR DLAMINI No, at that time we had just undergone training at Caprivi and Venda. When we arrived the police station had as yet not been built, and when we came here to the Mpumalanga area, we worked under ...(indistinct) Makateni. At that time the police used offices in the area . CHAIRPERSON What year was that you came to report here Mr Dlamini? MR DLAMINI 1987. MR STEWART Were you provided with appointment certificates of the Kwa-Zulu Police? MR DLAMINI We did not get them at the time, but when we returned here we took ID photos and this was sent to Ulundi. When they returned we had received our appointment certificates. MR STEWART Mr Dlamini what was the purpose of you being issued with a Kwa-Zulu Police appointment certificate? MR DLAMINI The purpose of this was that in all the areas that we went to in fighting the ANC, we would be able to carry guns so that we are not disturbed, and that the police should not harass or stop us on carrying out our activities of fighting against the ANC. That is how we operated. MR STEWART When you were sent to this area, were given instructions as to what you would be doing here? MR DLAMINI I received instructions from Mudla Induna at the time - there was a lot of fighting in Mpumalanga at the time. We were told that when we arrived here we would guide Indunas and Amakosi and counsellors in the township. That is what we were supposed to do here. MR STEWART MR DLAMINI Yes I remember it. MR STEWART Are you able to recall in what year this incident took place? MR DLAMINI Even though I do not remember correctly, but it did happen. MR STEWART MR DLAMINI Yes that is correct. MR STEWART Now what was the plan, what was it that you were going to do in this attack? MR DLAMINI MR STEWART MR DLAMINI We planned a revenge attack because one of our members had been attacked. MR STEWART And who did you plan to attack? MR DLAMINI MR STEWART Who did Walter say had attacked his sister? MR DLAMINI MR STEWART Mr Dlamini, tell us about the attack itself, what happened? MR DLAMINI Mtelani came to me to report that we should attack the house. He told the that Mudla Induna had spoken to him. As a policeman in the area I had a gun, a 7.65 mm which I kept with - I and Mtelani left as well as Ray Gadebe. MR STEWART Who else was with you Mr Dlamini? MR DLAMINI Just the three of us, myself, Mtelani and Ray Gadebe. MR STEWART MR DLAMINI MR STEWART So are you saying that your duties and those of Mr Khumalo insofar as the police were concerned, were different? MR DLAMINI They were not different but we were posted at different areas. MR STEWART MR DLAMINI MR STEWART Mr Dlamini, when you were firing, about how many shots did you fire do you think? MR DLAMINI MR STEWART Did you fire those shots at any people particularly? MR DLAMINI It was at night, it was dark. There were people screaming inside the house. If one of them were injured or not, I do not have knowledge thereof. But because I was outside and I was shooting directly to the windows, when I heard a scream inside, or maybe I heard a voice inside the house, I would shoot in that direction. After that I ran away. MR STEWART MR DLAMINI That is correct. MR STEWART Now that was the Mpafana home, did you not perhaps hear subsequently whether anyone was injured or killed? MR DLAMINI No I did not hear that. MR STEWART Now you say in your application that a few days later you informed that you had been identified at the scene, and that the police were looking for you. Is that right? MR DLAMINI MR STEWART And did that cause you to leave Mpumalanga? MR DLAMINI That cause my transfer to Pietermaritzburg from Mpumalanga. MR STEWART Now at some point you came to guard the Induna Ngcobo, is that right? MR DLAMINI Yes that is correct. MR STEWART Whereabouts was that? MR DLAMINI The Induna stays in Pietermaritzburg in an area called Dindi. MR STEWART MR DLAMINI That is correct. MR STEWART Were you issued with firearms at that time for the purpose of your duties? MR DLAMINI When I left here I had a HMC, a sub- machine gun. MR STEWART MR DLAMINI Sorry, I made a mistake, I had a R1 rifle. MR STEWART MR DLAMINI Yes that is correct. MR STEWART Where were you when you came under attack? MR DLAMINI We were guarding the Ngobe house - homestead at Pietermaritzburg, myself and Zombi Tshabangu. We were sitting around in the evening in a "rondawel". There was no electricity in the area. We just heard gunshots. We had a candle in the "rondawel". We lay flat on our stomachs, took our guns. All the time there was gunshots, we were hearing gunshots and some bullets were coming through the windows and the door, and some through the walls. We opened the door and started firing, flat on our stomachs. Because it was dark, if we saw a shadow passing by, we would fire, anything that would pass by. MR STEWART Mr Dlamini, at that time, did you know who it was that was attacking your "rondawel"? MR DLAMINI At the time I did not know. MR STEWART Who did you think it might be? MR DLAMINI Because that was an IFP stronghold, I thought that the UDF must be attacking, that is what I thought. MR STEWART And did you subsequently learn who it was that was launching this attack? MR DLAMINI Yes ultimately we did realise that it was the policemen who were on our side. MR STEWART Mr Dlamini how did you learn that, and how did the attack end? MR DLAMINI MR STEWART And as far as you are aware, it was just this one white policeman who was injured in that attack? MR DLAMINI Yes that is how I know. MR STEWART And did the - was that then the end of the matter or did the police want to investigate it further? MR DLAMINI MR STEWART Now you say that some time thereafter you were posted to the Sinatingi area of Pietermaritzburg to guard Mr Nwabe of the IFP who was Chairman of that area. Is that right? MR DLAMINI Yes it is so. MR STEWART MR DLAMINI Yes indeed. MR STEWART What was the situation in that area insofar as political conflict between the IFP and UDF was concerned? MR DLAMINI MR STEWART Who were you with when you went to that area to assist Nwabe? MR DLAMINI Here at Nwabe I was with a boy called Trevor Nene. MR STEWART MR DLAMINI Yes it is like that. MR STEWART Do you remember who he came with? MR DLAMINI MR STEWART Now you would have heard the evidence of Mr Khumalo two days ago when he mentioned the time when he came there to the Nwabe house. Was it the same time - do you remember if he came them with Mudla Induna and the others? MR DLAMINI MR STEWART What was your intention in calling them, what were you calling them to come and do in that area? MR DLAMINI MR STEWART Now you became involved in an incident then at that time when those people came. Will you explain that. MR DLAMINI MR STEWART Did you go with them? MR DLAMINI No I remained behind with those people that I was guarding, because it was too full, I had to stay with those people that I was guarding. They left, Mudla Induna and them.. MR STEWART And what did they do, having left in that way? MR DLAMINI MR STEWART And in your guarding duties of that house, did you also have cause to shoot - to shoot at any people? MR DLAMINI MR STEWART MR DLAMINI Yes I can see. MR STEWART Can you see where it says "incident 3"? MR DLAMINI Yes I can see. MR STEWART And towards the bottom of that paragraph, 4 lines from the bottom, it says "Mudla Induna and his group joined us, and together we shot back at the attackers." Are you referring there to yourself as well, or to the other people? MR DLAMINI MR STEWART And in the last sentence there in that paragraph you say "We shot about 10 people dead, and many others were injured." Did you have knowledge of that? MR DLAMINI MS KHAMPEPE MR STEWART MR DLAMINI Will you please repeat your question? MR STEWART MR DLAMINI MR STEWART MR DLAMINI MS KHAMPEPE I just wanted clarification only in respect of that small issue. MR STEWART MR DLAMINI MS KHAMPEPE Mr Stewart you may proceed. MR STEWART I thank you. If the Committee can bear with me for one minute. The Committee will find it instructive that this dealt with also by Mr Lethal at page 251, paragraph 15.26, and thereafter, where he explains that on arriving at this home, Trevor Nene and Zwele Dlamini were there and they had found that the UDF had already launched an attack and there were houses burning in the area, and then there was - from there various operations were launched, much along the lines of the viva voce evidence given by Mr Dlamini. CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you. MR STEWART MR DLAMINI MR STEWART Now after this, is it right, that you remained at the house of Nwabe? MR DLAMINI Yes I was there. MR STEWART MR DLAMINI Yes I do remember. MR STEWART Explain to the Committee what happened in that incident. MR DLAMINI MR STEWART MR DLAMINI MR STEWART MR DLAMINI MR STEWART That incident were you still - at that time your responsibility as to be assisting Nwabe, is that right? MR DLAMINI Yes it is. MR STEWART And did Nwabe know about this incident? MR DLAMINI Yes he did. MR STEWART Did he know about it at the time or only afterwards? MR DLAMINI He knew very well. MR STEWART And what was his attitude? MR DLAMINI CHAIRPERSON Did you - sorry Mr Stewart, did you play any role in the incident, in the petrol bombing and the shooting in the Gigi area? MR DLAMINI No I did not go there. I was staying in the house at the Nwabe residence. CHAIRPERSON And how far away from you was this attack, you know, with the petrol bombs and the shooting by the youths? MR DLAMINI CHAIRPERSON MR DLAMINI CHAIRPERSON Did you play any part in the planning of the attack, or did you have anything to do with the attack at all? MR DLAMINI CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you. MR STEWART Mr Dlamini in the work that you were doing in different areas, were there many attacks of this nature that happened close by to where you were, or that you were part of? MR DLAMINI MR STEWART In the time that you were doing this kind of work, were there many attacks of this nature, of this kind of conflict in the semi-urban or semi-rural areas? Many of these attacks near to where you were, or that you were involved in. MR DLAMINI Yes there was a lot of fighting there. MR STEWART Are you able to estimate at all about how many such attacks you knew about or you witnessed? MR DLAMINI MR STEWART And this was 10 years ago or so, am I right? MR DLAMINI Yes indeed. MR STEWART MR DLAMINI Yes indeed. MR STEWART MS KHAMPEPE MR STEWART My intention is to deal with a very separate incident, being the Woody Glen and Injubakazi incident which appears at page 388. During the short adjournment I will be in a position to take instructions on that. We should be able to clear it up and have it finished shortly there afterwards. CHAIRPERSON Yes thanks, and perhaps Mr Dlamini, we only need to hear about incidents in which you were personally involved in any way with. MR DLAMINI Thank you. MR STEWART MR DLAMINI Just go back to that. MR STEWART MR DLAMINI Yes I do remember this. MR STEWART Now this is - Woody Glen is not far from here, Mpumalanga, am I right? MR DLAMINI Yes indeed. MR STEWART And you mentioned in your application that there were fights - you described them as faction fights between the residents of Woody Glen Mpumalanga and residents of the Injubakazi area. Can you explain what were those fights about, what were the differences? MR DLAMINI What I can explain is that there was a lot of fighting in the Injubakazi area, fighting between the ANC and the IFP. As this fight went on, a lot of people were attacked by the ANC and they fled the area and came to Woody Glen. When these fights happened I was by that time working at the police station here. MR STEWART Now you mention a person called Kay, do you know who that person is? MR DLAMINI Although I cannot remember his surname I knew him as Kay, a member of the IFP who was well-known in unit 4. There were two persons by the name of Kay, there was a tall one and a shorter one. His nickname was Mtui. This is the Kay who came to me, being sent by Mudla Induna. CHAIRPERSON Was the Kay that came to you the tall one or the short one? MR DLAMINI The short one. MR STEWART MR DLAMINI MR STEWART Now you explain that this happened in about the middle of 1991, is that correct? MR DLAMINI That is correct, if my memory serves me well. MR STEWART At that time had there been taxi violence in this area? MR DLAMINI No at the time it had not as yet started. MR STEWART When was there taxi violence here, do you know? MR DLAMINI I cannot remember quite clearly. MR STEWART But it was sometime after this incident? MR DLAMINI MR STEWART And did this incident have anything to do with taxi violence? MR DLAMINI No, not at all. MR STEWART What did Kay ask you to do? MR DLAMINI I made a telephone call to Ulundi where Mudla Induna was, and asked him about this matter because I was working as a policeman. Mudla Induna asked me if I was not longer a member of the IFP. He told me that he indeed had sent Kay, and what Kay had told me I should do. I then agreed; told Kay that I would do it, and I asked him "where are the weapons" ...(intervention) MR STEWART MR DLAMINI MR STEWART MR DLAMINI Kay told me that there were other people who were going to assist us. We did not call guns by their names, we used to call them "sticks", and he told me that we were going to get these sticks somewhere, and I agreed with him. He took me to Sakonja and when we arrived there at a certain house, I cannot exactly remember where it is, he showed me the guns, they were AK47's, quite a lot of them. And there was ammunition as well. We left and returned to Unit 4. I went back to work. When I left work later on I told Kay that I was now ready to go with him. INTERPRETER MR DLAMINI Before we went to Injubakazi there was a boy by the name of Mkupuleni who worked at CR Swart in Durban, at the Murder and Robbery Unit. The SAP used to go the Injubakazi area, and this Mkupuleni used to work in that unit. He is an IFP member because he was once attacked at Injubakazi and came to stay at Woody Glen. Kay then connected me to this Mkupuleni before we went to attack the Injubakazi area. At one occasion Mkupuleni took his men and they went to check what the situation was like at Injubakazi, and he came back and reported to me that there was a large presence of the police in the area - we should not go there. After a few days I told him that he should make means that I should be able to go there because Mudla Induna had instructed me to go there. Thereafter myself and Kay, in his red Corolla, went to Sakonja. When we arrived there we found other people waiting for us, and their weapons were also there. I took AK47's, R4's, R1's and these men looked trustworthy, and they wanted - they were rearing to go to Injubakazi. They were afraid of me, I told them to take the guns. I gave them the guns in fact. MR STEWART Mr Dlamini do you remember who these people were, the ones that went with you? MR DLAMINI I do not remember them clearly. I did not know their names, but if I could see them, I could identify them because I did not know their names, there was no need for me to know their names, because if they were friends of Kay they would not be dangerous to me. Therefore I did not see a need to ask who they were. MR STEWART And I take it from that that they were not Caprivian? MR DLAMINI No they were not. They were people that I found at this house in Sakonja. MR STEWART Okay, now you told us that they were rearing to go. How did you then proceed to get to the Injubakazi area? MR DLAMINI I told the people that "now that you are at Injubakazi, you should start shooting". I told them that there was no policemen and there was no-one. If you see somebody you should take careful aim, shoot them. Indeed they did this. I lined them up and they started firing. As they were firing we discovered that some were hiding in the bushes and the started returning fire. I said to the person who was next to me, I said "give me that R1", I took it and I sat down and I hit a few. Some fell down, and at the same time they were returning fire. I fired. We decided to stop, I told them to stop. And then we returned on foot using the same route that we had taken before, but because of gunshots that were being fired, I think we used a route going through Unit 1, not ...(indistinct). We had sent a boy to go fetch a car that will pick us up. Indeed the car came and it picked us up. I went to Unit 4. Kay took all the guns and put them in his car. I then went back to my home. MR STEWART Mr Dlamini are you aware how many people were injured or killed in this attack? MR DLAMINI I do not know. MR STEWART And do you know how many people you personally shot in this attack? MR DLAMINI Although I do not know how many there were, but when I fired, there were some people who got injured, but I do not know whether they died or not. MR STEWART And did you ever hear thereafter what happened? MR DLAMINI As a person who worked in the police station I subsequently heard that the detectives in the Mpumalanga Police Station had heard that I had been involved in the incident. After hearing this I woke up the following morning, collected my belongings and went to Ulundi and reported to Mudla Induna. MR STEWART Now Mr Dlamini you touched on this on the introduction to the attack, but this is an important point, so I want you to cover it again. This attack, you were effectively commanding this attack, is that right? MR DLAMINI MR STEWART So can you explain to the Committee then what was the objective of this attack? What did you seek to achieve by attacking this area in that fashion when you were unable to identify individual people? MR DLAMINI Where we were was an ANC stronghold, the same ANC who had attacked our people and made them flee the area. Therefore our going to that area meant to attack the ANC. We did not discriminate because every person that we saw coming out of the houses, fleeing, we attacked. MR STEWART How did you know that it was a so-called ANC area? MR DLAMINI Chair, the Kay that I was with is the person who knew that that was an ANC area. MR STEWART How did he know that it was a ANC area, was this something that was commonly known or did he investigate, or did you verify this investigation? How could you be sure what area you were attacking? MR DLAMINI I was sure because even Mkupuleni who worked in ...(indistinct) would tell Kay where the ANC people are. MR STEWART Did you meet this Mkupuleni? MR DLAMINI I mentioned before that before the incident occurred, we met Mkupuleni. MR STEWART Mr Chairperson, would this be a convenient time? CHAIRPERSON HEARING ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION CHAIRPERSON MR DLAMINI (still under oath) CHAIRPERSON Mr Stewart? MR STEWART Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Dlamini, this Sinatingi area, is it a big area? MR DLAMINI Yes it is a big area. MR STEWART And at that time that you were there, did - was it associated with one or other of the political groupings that had been fighting one another? MR DLAMINI MR STEWART And was there a cemetery in that area? MR DLAMINI Yes there was. MR STEWART Now did anything used to happen often when there were funeral processions to the cemetery? MR DLAMINI MR STEWART What used to happen with those funeral processions? MR DLAMINI This Nwabe house is nearby the cemetery, the people from Oushtown, Ganeza and ...(indistinct) and Edendale ...(indistinct), when these people go for their burial they used to pass that house that I was guarding. MR STEWART Now this particular incident no 3, which is on page 384, now this particular incident, was there a funeral procession which started this incident? MR DLAMINI Yes it is like that. MR STEWART So what happened from this funeral procession? MR DLAMINI MR STEWART Are you saying Mr Dlamini, that you used the guns that you had to repel that attack? MR DLAMINI Yes indeed. MR STEWART And did you personally fire your firearm? MR DLAMINI Yes I did shoot. MR STEWART And are you aware whether there were people who were injured or killed in that shooting? MR DLAMINI CHAIRPERSON Did you shoot - did you aim when you shot, did you shoot with the intention of perhaps hitting a person, or did you just shoot in the air? MR STEWART CHAIRPERSON Sorry, were these people in the busses, or had they got out of the bus at the time of the shooting? MR DLAMINI They were on foot, and they were actually shooting the house where I was in. MR STEWART Now this procession then went past the house if I understand you, is that right? MR DLAMINI Yes, they passed and they went to the cemetery. That is when I phoned Mudla Induna to come instantly because things are heavy here. MR STEWART Were you - did you expect that that funeral procession would have to come back past the house again? MR DLAMINI MR STEWART And did you expect that there might be another attack? MR DLAMINI Yes indeed. MR STEWART MR DLAMINI Yes indeed. MR STEWART But you were involved in shooting to repel the initial attack when the funeral procession first came past the house? MR DLAMINI MR STEWART MR DLAMINI MR STEWART And as a consequence of that you withdraw any application in respect of that incident there which is reflected immediately the heading "Incident 4", that one paragraph, is that correct? MR DLAMINI MR STEWART Now in the following paragraph you mentioned an incident where you became injured. Will you explain what happened there, how it was that you became to be injured. MR DLAMINI CHAIRPERSON Sorry, sorry, just before you proceed Mr Dlamini, when you say you took money from people, what do you mean, did you rob people of money, or did you get money from them? MR DLAMINI MR STEWART Whereabouts on your body were you injured? MR DLAMINI The right foot and the right hand, because it was the trained people. I also realised that you hold the gun like this, and they actually shot where I was holding the gun. The were fighting for it so that I can fall down, because I also did not let myself down. I was shooting, they were actually to shoot the gun and I was wounded - the right foot and the right hand.. MR STEWART And this injury to your foot or your leg, did that take a long time to heal? MR DLAMINI MR STEWART Mr Dlamini, so did they take you from there? MR DLAMINI MR STEWART Is it right that you wanted to get away, this was an escape from the police to get away, am I right? MR DLAMINI CHAIRPERSON REQUESTS AUDIENCE TO CALM DOWN AND TO REFRAIN FROM INTERRUPTING THE WITNESS IN HIS EVIDENCE MR STEWART Mr Dlamini, do you still bear the scars of that injury to your leg? MR DLAMINI Yes indeed, I still have that. MR STEWART Are you prepared to show that to the Committee to show that you were injured in that way? MR DLAMINI Yes I can show them. MR STEWART Will you show us now? CHAIRPERSON Sorry, please calm down. The witness shows a large scar on his - the witness shows a large scar in the right leg shin. Please calm down. Mr Dlamini when you said you were shot in the foot, you mean you were shot - were you shot where you show the scar on the shin, rather than the foot? MR DLAMINI CHAIRPERSON Yes Mr Stewart? MR STEWART MR DLAMINI Yes it is like that. MR STEWART And that in all this time you were being hidden from the police? MR DLAMINI MR STEWART And were there any people in leadership or in command of you who were assisting in hiding you in this fashion? MR DLAMINI MZ Khumalo. MR STEWART And anyone else? MR DLAMINI Captain Langene. MR STEWART And anyone else? MR DLAMINI Those are the two that I still remember. MR STEWART Now is it right Mr Dlamini, that in accordance with your previous evidence in Richards Bay, that once you had recovered and you became active again, you were then stationed in eSikhawini with Mrs Mboyazi, is that right? MR DLAMINI Yes it is. MR STEWART Were you involved in any other incidents which you are able to remember, specifically in the Mpumalanga and Pietermaritzburg areas? MR DLAMINI Yes indeed. INTERPRETER MR STEWART MR DLAMINI MR STEWART Mr Dlamini, at one point you say that you returned briefly to the area in order to speak with your mother, and you established that your father had died. Is that right? MR DLAMINI Yes it is the truth. MR STEWART MR DLAMINI When I heard when I arrived home, he was working at Rainbow, driving the busses Rainbow that actually commute people to and from work. He was taken out at Unit 4 in a bus on his way to work They took him out there, they stabbed him and shot him. They stabbed him and they burned him. I heard that when I arrived at home. MR STEWART Where is your home now Mr Dlamini? MR DLAMINI Do you mean right now? Right now I stay at Maintain, but home, real home, is here in Hammarsdale in Unit 2. MR STEWART MR DLAMINI Yes it is my wish. Yes, indeed. MR STEWART When you look now, when you look back on those activities and incidents that you were involved in, what do you think about them? MR DLAMINI Chair, what I can say, when I look back in all what was happening until I got injured, political leaders knew how to instil this political indoctrination if I may say. That is how I found myself involved in this politics. These political leaders knew to make us do all these things. Even the community here at Mpumalanga know that, that a lot of their children died because of political reasons, and all those who survived because of politics. Therefore I say to the Mpumalanga community, in what they are in this unity that is here at Mpumalanga, I wish that you can be forever as it is. And all those people, especially who are still young, because I started when I was very young in this politics business. MR STEWART No further questions Mr Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STEWART CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Stewart. Mr Wills do have any questions to the witness? MR WILLS No questions Mr Chairperson. NO QUESTIONS BY MR WILLS CHAIRPERSON Mr Ngubane, do you have questions to put to the witness. EXAMINATION BY MR NGUBANE Thank you Mr Chairman, yes I have questions. Mr Dlamini in your group that operated in Mpumalanga, was there another Caprivi an known as Zwele Dlamini, other that yourself? MR DLAMINI MR NGUBANE Is the man whose other name is Godfrey Dlamini - Zwele Godfrey Dlamini, do you know that name? MR DLAMINI Yes that is correct. MR NGUBANE Now you and Nyoni Hlongwane have mentioned the name of Nkeshle - Zakele Nkeshle extensively. Just tell us a little bit about the Inkatha leadership, was Nkeshle the only Inkatha who worked with you, or what was the position? MR DLAMINI Chair, at my section in Unit 2 there was a councillor, Mr Bengo who worked closely with Zakele Nkeshle. He himself was also a member of the IFP at the time. I mentioned the person that I knew, and from my section. MR NGUBANE Well my question is directed to the Inkatha people who were directing you to commit certain acts linked with what you call political activities, acts of destroying houses and killing people. Are you saying that Nkeshle and Bengo are the only ones, or it was a more extensive Inkatha leadership? MR DLAMINI MR NGUBANE Now Mr Dlamini, let me put the questions directly to you, did you at any stage receive any instructions from an Inkatha person other than Nkeshle and Bengo to do acts of violence in Mpumalanga? MR DLAMINI No, there was no other person except for Zakele. MR NGUBANE Okay. Did you receive any sanctuary from any other Inkatha high-ranking officer in Mpumalanga, other than Nkeshle and Bengo after you had committed any act of violence? MR DLAMINI MR NGUBANE MR DLAMINI Yes. MR NGUBANE Do you know there was reference to an Inkatha leader known as Mercy Sithulu. Was he in fact the leader of the IFP - local IFP in Mpumalanga? MR DLAMINI Yes, she was the leader of the IFP. MR NGUBANE Did she have anything with your instructions to commit any violence, or with providing you sanctuary after you had committed acts of violence - at any stage? MR DLAMINI No, not at all. MR NGUBANE Do you know a red motor vehicle that used to operate in Mpumalanga which was known as "Tomato"? MR DLAMINI Please repeat the question. CHAIRPERSON The question was, Mr Dlamini, the question was, do you know a red motor vehicle that used to operate in Mpumalanga which was known as "Tomato". MR NGUBANE Yes I know it. MR DLAMINI Did you at any stage participate or travel in that motor vehicle, in executing certain acts of violence against the UDF members or families? MR DLAMINI No. MR NGUBANE Just tell us more about that motor vehicle, where it originated, how it operated, if you know. MR DLAMINI What I know is that that car belongs Sipho Mlaba. I am not aware of its activities ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON REQUESTS AUDIENCE TO CALM DOWN MR DLAMINI MR MOTATA In that respect Mr Ngubane, he has just told us that he operated twice - before he was trained as a Caprivi an, and subsequently as a Caprivi an. So we would want to know in which period was this vehicle used. MR NGUBANE Mr Dlamini you say you know this motor vehicle. At what period do you know it? MR DLAMINI I think it was roundabout 1987. MR NGUBANE That is after you had come back from Caprivi, or was it before? MR DLAMINI After I came back from Caprivi. MR NGUBANE Now you say that you knew that it belonged to a certain Mlaba, that motor vehicle. Were you aware of its activities in Mpumalanga? MR DLAMINI CHAIRPERSON Please, let Mr Ngubane ask a question. MR NGUBANE MR DLAMINI MR NGUBANE MR DLAMINI That is correct. MR NGUBANE When you were working there, did you hear some names of people that were targets of the Inkatha people, the UDF people that were the targets of the Inkatha people? MR DLAMINI Please repeat the question. MR NGUBANE Where you aware of certain people that were the targets of the Inkatha people there in Sinatingi? MR DLAMINI No, I do not know of anyone. MR NGUBANE MR DLAMINI ...(no English translation) MR NGUBANE MR DLAMINI There were a lot of funeral processions that passed by the place where I guarded, so I would not know which was his. MR NGUBANE Well did you attack any people from the UDF or to the UDF funeral in Sinatingi, at any stage? MR DLAMINI As I mentioned earlier on, I did shoot some people who were proceeding to a funeral. MR NGUBANE Okay. The - you operated in Mpumalanga until roundabout 1991, is that correct? MR DLAMINI That is correct. MR NGUBANE Were you in this area of Mpumalanga when the police station was officially opened? MR DLAMINI No I was not here. MR NGUBANE Now the incident that took place in Malangeni cemetery where UDF people were slaughtered, do you know anything about that incident? MR DLAMINI No. MR NGUBANE Okay. If the Committee can just bear with me. Now this David Ntombela, is it correct that at one stage you were his guard - David Ntombela of Pietermaritzburg? MR DLAMINI That is correct. MR NGUBANE Did he order you to conduct certain operations at any stage? MR DLAMINI MR NGUBANE Now you have mentioned certain people that were involved in these acts which could either be described as political acts, or criminal acts. What do you - do you - if ever they get charged, what is your attitude regarding giving evidence against them? MR DLAMINI MR NGUBANE Are you co-operating with any structure in investigating criminal acts - in investigating criminal - with a view of laying criminal charges against these people at any stage? MR DLAMINI I could also help in that regard. MR NGUBANE No, no, my question is, at the moment are you involved with any structure that is investigating any of the criminal acts involving the people you have implicated? MR DLAMINI No. MR NGUBANE Thank you Mr Chair I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NGUBANE CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Ngubane. Mr Hewitt do you have any questions to the witness? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HEWITT "I was aware that Kay was a taxi war-lord from the area. I had agreed to assist him on the basis that the instruction had come from Mudla Induna, my commander." So is the position that Lethuli had told you to assist this taxi war-lord? MR DLAMINI MR HEWITT Yes, all I want you to do is to confirm that Lethal, also known as Mudla Induna, told you to assist this person whom you in your affidavit have described as a taxi war-lord. Is that correct, yes or no? MR DLAMINI This name "war-lord", I do not agree with because when this incident happened, the taxi violence had not as yet started. MR HEWITT Alright, well whether you say now or not that you agree with the use of the word "war-lord", I want to ask you this question, and this question is this, I want you to listen to my definition of a taxi war-lord and I would like you to tell me whether you agree with my definition of a taxi war-lord. Do you understand? MR DLAMINI Yes. MR HEWITT MR DLAMINI No I do not agree with you. CHAIRPERSON I think finish your definition because at the moment it would include every single person involved in the taxi business. MR HEWITT MR DLAMINI I disagree with you. MR HEWITT MR DLAMINI This word refers to the activities that we carried out that you actually pay people to kill other people. MR HEWITT Are you saying your definition of a taxi war-lord is a person who pays other people to have them killed - his opposition or opponents or enemies killed, is that your definition of a taxi war-lord? MR DLAMINI MR HEWITT MR DLAMINI MR HEWITT MR DLAMINI Chair, I do not agree that he was a taxi war-lord, because he was a taxi owner. If I remember correctly, I do not remember him issuing a command that his opponents should be killed. Even if it happened, I have never heard of it. CHAIRPERSON "I was aware that Kay was a taxi war-lord from the area. I had agreed to assist him on the basis that the instruction had come from Mudla Induna, my commander." MR DLAMINI MR HEWITT Are you now saying that you affidavit where it describes him as a war-lord, which on your own definition is a criminal in business, is wrong - the person who wrote the affidavit out wrote it incorrectly for you? MR DLAMINI Yes that is correct. MR HEWITT Did you read the affidavit before you signed it? MR DLAMINI Yes I read it. MR HEWITT You see I have another difficulty with your affidavit where it relates to the Woody Glen/Injubakazi incident, and it is this, is that nowhere in your description in the affidavit over the killings, the fighting involved in that incident, do you refer to it as being a fight between the IFP and the UDF. Can you explain that omission from your affidavit? MR STEWART MR HEWITT CHAIRPERSON MR DLAMINI MR HEWITT MR DLAMINI MR HEWITT MR DLAMINI MR HEWITT NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HEWITT MS KHAMPEPE Mr Hewitt, with due respect, I do not agree with your understanding of that paragraph. MR HEWITT MS KHAMPEPE Yes, because if I can just refer to the words which have been used in that paragraph, there is a reference to the words "faction fights" between the residents of Woody Glen and residents of Injubakazi, and there is also a reference to "area indifferences". Then there is a reference to a policeman known as Mkupuleni Kumede who had left the Woody Glen - who had left the Injubakazi area precisely because of the conflict and had gone to stay at Woody Glen which was an Inkatha area. So I think there was this conflict, the way I read it. MR HEWITT CHAIRPERSON It can be raised at an argument. Thank you Mr Hewitt. Mr Dladla do you have any questions? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR DLADLA MR DLAMINI Yes I did know. MR DLADLA And you told this Committee that before - during the attack you heard people screaming from inside the house, is that correct? MR DLAMINI That is correct. MR DLADLA MR DLAMINI It was a mixture, there were women and men, old people and young children. MR DLADLA MR DLAMINI I did mention that it was a UDF stronghold, and women would sometimes be present. MR DLADLA Even children? MR DLAMINI No, no children. MR DLADLA MR DLAMINI MR DLADLA No further questions Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DLADLA CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Stewart do you have any re-examination? MR STEWART No further questions Mr Chairperson. NO QUESTIONS BY MR STEWART CHAIRPERSON Ms Khampepe do you have any questions? MS KHAMPEPE MR DLAMINI MS KHAMPEPE MR DLAMINI MS KHAMPEPE So you are saying that you would have defied a direct instruction form your commandeering chief if you had known that you were now being ordered to assist as person who was a taxi lord? MR DLAMINI MS KHAMPEPE MR DLAMINI CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Moloi do you have any questions. MR MOLOI Thank you I have no questions Mr Chair. CHAIRPERSON Mr Motata do you have any questions? MR MOTATA CHAIRPERSON MR DLAMINI CHAIRPERSON MR DLAMINI CHAIRPERSON Mr Stewart any questions arising? MR STEWART None Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Mr Wills? MR WILLS No questions Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Mr Hewitt? MR HEWITT No thank you Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Mr Ngubane - it always happens at this stage of the proceedings. GENERAL LAUGHTER MR NGUBANE No questions Mr Chair. CHAIRPERSON Mr Dladla. MR DLADLA No questions Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Dlamini you may stand down. WITNESS IS EXCUSED