amntrans AMNESTY HEARING 1998-08-13 HAMMARSDALE 3 B NDLOVU https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=52806&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1998/98081114_hmm_hammar3.htm BERTWELL BHEKI NDLOVU (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Thank you, you may be seated. Mr Wills sorry, before you commence - are your full names Bertwell Bheki Ndlovu? MR NDLOVU Yes. MR WILLS CHAIRPERSON Yes thank you Mr Wills. EXAMINATION BY MR WILLS Mr Ndlovu you were born in Mpumalanga, Unit 2, in 1970? MR NDLOVU Yes. MR WILLS You schooled in Mpumalanga? MR NDLOVU Yes. MR WILLS And at a relatively young age you became involved in the activities of the IFP, is that right? MR NDLOVU That is correct. MR WILLS In fact unlike what appears in your amnesty application, you actually became involved in the IFP in 1984 when you were 14 years of age, not in 1980, that was a mistake in your application, is that right? MR NDLOVU That is correct. MR WILLS Can you tell us how you got involved with the IFP? MR NDLOVU I started being involved in the IFP when it was still a liberation movement. I was staying at Woody Glen at that time. There was a central committee of the youth at the time. Boys my age were collected and were encouraged to become involved in the IFP Youth League. They would patrol the area at night because they were suspicious that Mr RD Sishi who worked with a committee of councillors called "Mpoera". MR WILLS This is a civic organisation, is that correct - Mpoera? MR NDLOVU Yes something of that nature, I am not well versed with it. MR WILLS Yes, and did you get involved voluntarily? MR NDLOVU No Bengo Makateni came to me, he was with some other person who in the youth committee at that time. MR WILLS Yes, sorry, just for the record, this acronym that I referred to, "Mpoera", stands for Mpumalanga Residents Association, is that correct Mr Ndlovu? MR NDLOVU Yes. MR WILLS Now you were from the Woody Glen area, who was the IFP leader in that area at the time? MR NDLOVU It was Mrs Thlontlo. MR WILLS MR NDLOVU Mamo Ngoma because she was a Sangoma. MR WILLS Now in - can you describe the activities you got involved in in those early days when you were a member of the IFP Youth? MR NDLOVU MR WILLS MR NDLOVU Yes, it was a movement for scholars. This organisation was founded by Mashu and some of his colleagues. MR WILLS This person you referred to as being the founder-member of HYCO was the person called Mashu, is that right? MR NDLOVU MR WILLS Yes, and he was the same person that Nyoni Hlongwane referred to yesterday in his evidence, is that correct, do you recall that? MR NDLOVU That is correct. MR WILLS So okay, continue. MR NDLOVU MR WILLS Yes, and is it not so that you attended certain camps as a result of you being associated with the IFP Youth in the area? MR NDLOVU There was a camp near the Weber area. There were rumours that the UDF was coming into the township because this was the only township that did not have the UDF. We were given knives, bush-knives, to go camp at that area. We would search cars and busses that would come into the area. We camped there for a while because nothing happened. Instead we later discovered, or we were told, that those people that we were supposed to guard against had already, were already in our midst. At that time the police would come and would enquire from older people and people who were educated, they would inform them that there was nothing happening, everything was fine, and the police would leave. MR WILLS Yes, so - I mean is it your evidence that the police would know that you were conducting these searches of vehicles coming into the Hammarsdale area? MR NDLOVU Yes that is correct. MR WILLS MR NDLOVU South African Police. MR WILLS Now, just quickly Mr Ndlovu, what standard of education do you have? MR NDLOVU I left school early, in standard 4. MR WILLS Mr Ndlovu, ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON REQUESTS AUDIENCE TO CALM DOWN MR WILLS MR NDLOVU I do not understand Mr Wills. MR WILLS The incidents in respect of which you are applying for amnesty, those incidents all occurred after you had been trained as a special constable during the course of 1988, is that correct? MR NDLOVU Chair, I think that I am seeking amnesty for activities that occurred in Mpumalanga before I joined the Police Force and after I joined the Police Force. CHAIRPERSON MR WILLS Sorry Mr Chairperson, possibly ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON MR WILLS If I could assist Mr Chair ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Yes certainly, I think you just lead the witness on. MR WILLS MR NDLOVU Yes. MR WILLS But is it not so that there are essentially three areas in respect of which you are applying for amnesty, and the first would be that involving the death of a - sorry Chairperson ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON On Bongane Ntombela, is that the one? MR WILLS MR NDLOVU That is correct. MR WILLS MR NDLOVU That is correct. MR WILLS That, according to my instructions occurred during some time in 1989 to the best of your recollections, is that right? MR NDLOVU Yes. MR WILLS MR NDLOVU MR WILLS And then the second incident involved what I can loosely describe, an attack on a meeting that was taking place at a school in Ndwedwe, is that right? MR NDLOVU MR WILLS Now to my knowledge as your legal representative, that is the extent of your amnesty application. Is that correct? MR NDLOVU That is correct. MR WILLS And these Ndwedwe incidents occurred in 1990, is that correct? MR NDLOVU That is correct? MR WILLS To the best of your recollection? MR NDLOVU MR WILLS So logic dictates that if you were trained as a special constable in 1988, then your amnesty application deals with issues that occurred after 1988, is that correct? MR NDLOVU That is correct. CHAIRPERSON ...(indistinct) during 1988, yes. MR WILLS MR NDLOVU That is correct. MR WILLS Yes. Now ...(intervention) MS KHAMPEPE MR WILLS Thank you Ms Committee Member. Basically his involvement there, as will become apparent, is minimal, but it is included in what was described in his application as the attacks on the ANC in the Ndwedwe area. MS KHAMPEPE Thank you. MR WILLS CHAIRPERSON HEARING ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION CHAIRPERSON MR NDLOVU Yes thank you. MR WILLS Thank you members of the Committee, Mr Chairperson. Before lunch Mr Ndlovu, we were talking about the type of fighting that you were involved in before you went to the special - the training to be special constable in Koeberg, do you recall that? MR NDLOVU Yes I do. MR WILLS Now I want you to describe to the Amnesty Committee the type of fighting it was, and what weapons were used at that stage. MR NDLOVU Knives and butcher knives, stones. MR WILLS Did - before you went for training as a special constable, did you ever fight with firearms, guns? MR NDLOVU No. MR WILLS Now you went during 1998 to be trained as a special constable. How was it that it came about that you went for this special constable training? MR NDLOVU There at Woody Glen people who were known very well that they are working for the IFP truthfully, and they were actually volunteering or give themselves to fight for IFP. We were also taken to be part of them, it was myself, Siphiso Ntuli, if my memory serves me well, and Walter Zulu, and we went through it in Maritzburg. MR WILLS Yes and then you eventually went down to Koeberg were you were trained as special constable. Can you briefly tell us what type of training you received? MR NDLOVU We were trained we must shoot the 500 shotgun. MR WILLS Yes, and what were you trained about the ANC and the UDF? MR NDLOVU MR WILLS Now were you taught about detective work or normal police work? MR NDLOVU Please repeat the question. MR WILLS MR NDLOVU No we were special constables. MR WILLS Now you completed your training and then you returned to Maritzburg for a short while, and then you were sent up to Ulundi, is that correct? MR NDLOVU Yes Chair. MR WILLS And then a colonel Dube posted you to, for a short while, at Kwamakuta, and then afterwards you were posted to Ndwedwe. Is that correct? MR NDLOVU Yes it is. MR WILLS Now why was it decided that you were to be posted to Ndwedwe? MR NDLOVU MR WILLS Now when you got to Ndwedwe, who did you receive instructions from, was it from police persons or was it from other persons? Because as I understand it you went to Ndwedwe as a police unit, is that correct? MR NDLOVU MR WILLS Now this person Mr Mfayela, was he a policeman? MR NDLOVU No he was not. He was just the leader there at Ndwedwe. MR WILLS What - in respect of what was he a leader? MR NDLOVU He was the IFP leader there. MR WILLS So your evidence is to the effect that the IFP leader was giving you and the other persons in the Kwa-Zulu Police instructions as to what your duties should be? MR NDLOVU MR WILLS MR NDLOVU Yes Chair. MR WILLS Now I want you to explain to the Amnesty Committee the circumstances surrounding the death of Mr Msomi. MR NDLOVU MR WILLS When you say he told you, who are you referring to? MR NDLOVU MR WILLS Now you say "we shot him", did you yourself actually shoot? MR NDLOVU Yes indeed. MR WILLS And you used - for this purpose you used the 9mm pistol that you had got for the operation, is that right? MR NDLOVU Yes indeed. MR WILLS And as I understand your evidence, there was - you were accompanied on this mission by a certain Jack Gomede, is that correct, who you said was armed with a HMC? MR NDLOVU Yes. MR WILLS And did this person Jack Gomede also shoot Mr Msomi? MR NDLOVU MR WILLS Did Mr Msomi die as a result of the wounds he received? MR NDLOVU Yes he did. MR WILLS Now what did you do after you had shot Mr Msomi? MR NDLOVU MR WILLS Yes. I just want to get a little bit more clarity on how you acquired the weapon, 9 mm pistol, which you used. Can you just explain that to us. You said ...(intervention) MR NDLOVU Chair, Dul Thlontlo said I must go to Mpumlani Nshlengo where I will get this 9mm which I will use. Indeed I did that, and then I found it. MR WILLS And after the incident you returned this firearm to the same Mpumlani Nshlengo? MR NDLOVU MR WILLS MR NDLOVU MR WILLS Yes, but do you know if in this incident anyone was killed or that you even hit the taxi? MR NDLOVU MR WILLS Did you see if the taxi stopped, or did it continue driving after you shot at it? MR NDLOVU MR WILLS MR NDLOVU MR WILLS Just - sorry Mr Ndlovu, I just want to get some clarity. As I understand your evidence you were patrolling as a Kwa-Zulu Policeman in a Kwa-Zulu Police vehicle when this incident occurred. MR NDLOVU Not a van, a truck, the Police truck 235. MR WILLS Yes, and when you say you used the walkie-talkie to call a van, you used the police vehicle to contact the police station in order that they could send a police van, is that correct? MR NDLOVU MR WILLS Okay, continue. MR NDLOVU When the van arrived it was driven by - Dlamini was in it, Boy Ngobo, a sergeant. And in front there was station commander Mogwaza who was a sergeant there at Ndwedwe. At the back there were three special constables, Dlamini, Mtelezi ...(intervention) INTERPRETER MR NDLOVU And the third one was Mtelezi. I entered in that van and Martin Kanyele. When this van left it went directly to that house where those people were standing, the people who were shooting us. When we were just approaching that house a petrol bomb was directed to the van and the van almost overturned. And then we stopped, and then we came out and station commander then said we should go there. When we arrived there we surrounded the house, and Mtelezi, Dlamini were at the front and they knocked there, and there was no response. And then Dlamini shot at the door and it was open. MR WILLS Sorry, who actually killed this person, do you recall? MR NDLOVU Dlamini finished off. MR WILLS By shooting him? MR NDLOVU Yes. MR WILLS Continue. MR NDLOVU MR WILLS And who was that that had shot this woman? MR NDLOVU Martin Kanyele. MR WILLS MR NDLOVU MR WILLS So why are you applying for amnesty in respect of this incident? MR NDLOVU The actual fact is that I know that times will go by and that the case - the court case will actually come out, and no-one was arrested there. So I want everything that happened while I was there, I want it to be revealed and to be know that I was also there, although I was not directly involved. But it should be know that that what happened there, I was around myself. MR WILLS And is it not so that despite the fact that you were a policeman at that stage, and despite the fact that being a policeman you had a duty to report crimes, and you failed to report the crime. MR NDLOVU MR WILLS Yes. Now I want you to turn to the second incident you referred to in regard to attacks on ANC areas in Ndwedwe. That involves the incident where you were involved in an attack at a school. Can you explain or give the details of that incident to the Committee Members? MR NDLOVU We therefore decided that some Telewenies should go to Osendiswene and wait for them, and they should in fact throw oranges and apples into the hippos because the soldiers normally thought that when you throw something into the hippo, it was a grenade, a hand grenade. When the soldiers came to report this incident at the police station we were called to intervene, and we asked them why they worked with the Verulam Police Station instead of us. They then started working with us, and from that time each battalion had two policemen working with them. I was in one and Moosa Pungula was in the other. As we were patrolling around Sindeswene and we passed a certain school, I did not know its name. A group of people from the area who apparently had been holding a meeting came out and ran away. We did not discuss this, but we just started shooting. MR WILLS Now why did you shoot - I mean, who did you think you were shooting at? MR NDLOVU MR WILLS You say you shot at this crowd, do you know if anybody was killed, or injured? MR NDLOVU CHAIRPERSON Sorry Mr Wills, just one question. Mr Ndlovu when you were firing at this group of people, can you give an estimation of the distance that you were away from them when you were shooting - how far away were they from you? MR NDLOVU I think from where I am they were about at that first door. CHAIRPERSON MR WILLS Yes. CHAIRPERSON About 30 paces. MR WILLS MR NDLOVU I and Moosa Pungula as well as the soldiers shot at these people. The SADF used R.4, and we used shotguns. CHAIRPERSON And how many soldiers were there with you who shot, can you give us some indication? MR Ndlovu If my memory serves me well, I think about 12 in total. MR WILLS As I understand, your position is that the soldiers were in fact in two vehicles, is that correct, and there were about 6 soldiers in each vehicle? MR NDLOVU That is correct. MR WILLS But can you say that you saw all of those 12 soldiers shoot, or not? MR NDLOVU MR WILLS Now were you ever arrested or prosecuted, or charged in respect of this incident? MR NDLOVU No. MR WILLS The final incident which we want to apply for amnesty for Mr Ndlovu, is the death of Bongane Ntombela. Now this occurred in the Pietermaritzburg area, is that correct? MR NDLOVU Yes Chair. MR WILLS Now as I understand your history at about that time, after being stationed in Ndwedwe, you were then stationed in Mpumalanga for a while. Is that right? MR NDLOVU That is correct. MR WILLS And then you received a message to travel to Pietermaritzburg for a specific reason, is that correct? MR NDLOVU That is correct. MR WILLS Now can you tell us what happened then - can you tell us how you got to Maritzburg? MR NDLOVU At about 5am the following day Mudla Induna had come to pick me up, and we left, but before we went to Pietermaritzburg we went to the Durban office of the IFP and he make a call to MZ Khumalo and told him that he had found people to go guard his son. After Durban we went to Pietermaritzburg and he left us there. MR WILLS Yes, I just want you to give a bit more detail in relation to the houses and where they were situated. Can you tell us what the political affiliation of the persons were who resided in that area where those houses were situated? MR NDLOVU MR WILLS MR NDLOVU When we arrived at Pietermaritzburg a certain policeman by the surname of Nwabe was to be buried at the weekend. This policeman was said to have been shot by comrades and his service pistol was stolen. Mr ...(indistinct) Lethal had told us about this incident, and he warned us to be careful when we were there. MR WILLS What things did they say to you? MR NDLOVU On our way from the hostel we met one of them, and on meeting him we recognised him as one of the people who had been in the crowd that had insulted us. And ME Ndlovu just shot him on the leg. I was carrying - or I removed the HMC from ME Ndlovu and I shot him four times on the head, and he died. MR WILLS Now is it not so that ...(intervention) MR NDLOVU We had suspicions that he could be one of the people who had killed the policeman at Imbali. MR WILLS Yes, I just want to get clarity. You say you went to the hostel with these four people, and then you returned. As I understand, your evidence is, at the time you killed this person, Bongane, there were only two of you present, and that was you and ME Ndlovu. The other persons that you were with before had already left your company and had nothing to do with this incident. Is that correct? MR NDLOVU That is correct. MR WILLS MR NDLOVU Chair, I would like to give thanks for this opportunity. Actually when I grew up I was not the same person that I am today. I was made to be what I am. What is important, the people should realise who was behind all of this. CHAIRPERSON REQUESTS AUDIENCE TO CALM DOWN MR NDLOVU Therefore Chair I say to the people of Mpumalanga I was able to move around Mpumalanga because there was peace in this region at that time, but we would be taken from this place and be used in different areas where there was still violence, including Intchanga, Zululand and Ndwedwe. Therefore there were some youths that were actually being taken, I was not the only one who did this. I say to all the people who lost their relatives, I ask for forgiveness. Thank you Chairperson. MR WILLS Thank you Mr Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WILLS CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Wills. Mr Stewart do you have any questions to ask the witness? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR STEWART I do thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Ndlovu do you know Mpumlani Mshengo? MR NDLOVU Yes. MR STEWART MR NDLOVU Yes we did stay with her. MR STEWART And was this Mshengo involved at that time in violence? MR NDLOVU That is correct. MR STEWART You yourself have knowledge of that? MR NDLOVU Yes Chair. MR STEWART Now on the question of the death of Msomi you explained that you got instructions from someone called Jack, am I right? MR NDLOVU I did not say I received instruction from Jack. CHAIRPERSON I think he said that Jack came to him with a message from Mr Lethal, and conveyed a message, and then he went off with Jack Gomede and that message was later confirmed when he spoke with Mr Lethal, and then they both went off. MR STEWART MR NDLOVU I said Jack came to me and said Mudla Induna required to see us. And when we got there he said there was a task that we were supposed to carry out. That is how I explained it. MR STEWART MS KHAMPEPE MR STEWART CHAIRPERSON What are your comments on that Mr Ndlovu? MR NDLOVU MR STEWART Mr Ndlovu this Mpumlani Mshengo that I spoke about earlier, he was involved in this incident am I right? MR NDLOVU Yes Chair. MR STEWART What exactly was his involvement? MR NDLOVU I received the 9mm gun from him. He gave me the gun to go kill this person. MR STEWART And Mshengo knew the purpose of giving you the gun? MR NDLOVU Yes he did know it very well. MR STEWART No further questions Mr Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STEWART CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Stewart. Mr Ngubane do you have any questions to put to the witness? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR NGUBANE Yes Mr Chairperson. Now Mr Ndlovu you spoke about the incident when you shot at the taxi drivers, do you remember? MR NDLOVU Let us not call them taxi drivers because I attacked one taxi on that day. MR NGUBANE Yes, well did the taxi have the drivers or just ordinary passengers? MR NDLOVU There were passengers at the taxi. MR NGUBANE Can you recall more or less in which year this incident took place? MR NDLOVU CHAIRPERSON MR NGUBANE MR NDLOVU MR Ngubane Okay. So the shooting that took place at a place where the taxi was shot at the First Bus stop, do you bear any knowledge of that? MR NDLOVU If I remember correctly, the people who were involved there were Jack Gomede and his group, although I did not know who they were, but I do remember the incident. MR NGUBANE MR NDLOVU I do not have knowledge thereof. MR NGUBANE The incidents that occurred in Mpumalanga that you have mentioned; the killing of Msomi and this shooting of a taxi, are they the only incidents that you were involved in where people were killed here in Mpumalanga? MR STEWART Sorry Mr Chairperson, I ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON MR NGUBANE I stand corrected. Where there was a shooting where people might have been killed or injured? MR NDLOVU I did not attack anywhere else unless there was fighting between the IFP and ANC youths. I will be involved in such incidents but I and my group have not been involved in other incidents. MR NGUBANE MR NDLOVU MR NGUBANE When actually did you become a policeman in the - in which year did you become a policeman? MR NDLOVU At the end of 1988. MR NGUBANE Was it before the official opening of the police station here in Mpumalanga? MR NDLOVU I do not remember when it was officially opened. MR NGUBANE But do you remember the ceremony relating to the official opening of the police station there in Mpumalanga? MR NDLOVU Yes Chair. MR NGUBANE Where you present here in Mpumalanga when there was an official ceremony to open the police station? MR NDLOVU Yes Chair. MR NGUBANE And do you know that a lot of havoc happened in Mpumalanga on that particular day where various houses were attacked - by the police in conjunction with Inkatha? MR NDLOVU MR NGUBANE Were you also part of that convoy? MR NDLOVU Chair because there was a large number of people it is not possible for them to have attacked - all of them to have attacked those houses, but I think it was a few houses that were attacked. I did not partake in the attack. MR NGUBANE Were there any specific instructions from anyone to attack the houses and injure people on that particular day? MR NDLOVU I will be telling a lie, I do not know about it. MR NGUBANE Thank you Mr Chairman, no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NGUBANE CHAIRPERSON Mr Hewitt do you have any questions? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HEWITT Yes Mr Chairman. These soldiers that you say you were with, about 12 of them, when you fired at people coming out of a school, were they white soldiers? MR NDLOVU MR HEWITT But they were white? MR NDLOVU Yes they were white. MR HEWITT And this was in Ndwedwe? MR NDLOVU Yes. MR HEWITT Do you know what unit they belonged to? MR NDLOVU MR HEWITT 63 or 32? MR NDLOVU Yes. MR HEWITT Battalion? MR NDLOVU Yes. MR HEWITT Thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HEWITT CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Mpshe do you have any questions? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY ADV MPSHE MR NDLOVU Yes I do. ADV MPSHE MR NDLOVU ADV MPSHE MR NDLOVU ADV MPSHE This was as result of the assumption that they were working with them, you assumed that? MR NDLOVU ADV MPSHE MR NDLOVU Chair I was not trained to finish violence. What I was trained ...(intervention) INTERPRETER CHAIRPERSON MR NDLOVU There at Ndwedwe we were posted there to protect IFP people, and now we were told that the comrades are bothering IFP people. Secondly, the police who were working there were no longer residing in their areas because the comrades chased them away, they were staying in the police station. That is the situation that we went there to correct. ADV MPSHE MR NDLOVU Yes that is what we were doing. MS KHAMPEPE If I may interpose Mr Mpshe, how were you to protect IFP members in that area? MR NDLOVU MS KHAMPEPE And that was the protection you were supposed to give them? MR NDLOVU Yes. ADV MPSHE Now the house to which you went, you know, when you were parked somewhere and you could not go down to that house and a van came with reinforcements - the house to which you went, what was happening?. MR NDLOVU ADV MPSHE Now the shots that were fired, were they being fired at any IFP person in the neighbourhood or to the police who were up on the mountain? MR NDLOVU Chair we were the people who were there on that hill, so it means it was actually directed to us because the bullet crossed our truck. ADV MPSHE And not to any IFP member down there, not so? MR NDLOVU No there were no IFP people around. ADV MPSHE MR NDLOVU ADV MPSHE By elderly people that would include also women? MR NDLOVU Yes Chair. ADV MPSHE Before you could open up fire on them, did they say anything to you or did anything happen to you - or you just saw them run out and you started shooting? MR NDLOVU Yes. ADV MPSHE Yes to what, you just saw them and you started shooting, or you saw them, they said something, you started shooting - yes to what? MR NDLOVU We just shot, they said nothing to us. ADV MPSHE The soldiers who had accompanied you, did they also partake in the shooting? MR NDLOVU Yes they did. ADV MPSHE Will you perhaps know the reason why the soldiers also partook in this? MR NDLOVU ...(no English translation) ADV MPSHE Soldiers. MR NDLOVU The soldiers then asked from us about that area, as I explained that we send the youth there so that they can go there and scare them using the applies as if they are throwing hand grenades, so that they can run away and come to us and ask for help from us. In that sense we were able then to tell them that the people who were doing that were the comrades, so that they can come to us for help and then I should think that they were also paying revenge such that they got injured others ...(indistinct) ADV MPSHE If I have to conclude from what you have said, is that the soldiers took part in shooting at the crowd because of your disinformation to them, is that correct? MR NDLOVU Yes. ADV MPSHE MR NDLOVU Yes indeed. ADV MPSHE And in that court you relate what happened on that particular at the killing of Ntombela. MR NDLOVU Yes I did. ADV MPSHE Was any woman involved in this incident? MR NDLOVU Chair I cannot say that this person was involved because we met and she was not by herself, there were two of them, and again Chair, I would like to explain there because you are giving me a chance now. This female, her name was Tobele, and staying there at Unit 2. I greeted her and I asked for her ...(indistinct) and then she stopped and I asked her name and surname, she told me. ADV MPSHE Did you not molest this girl? Did you not molest/assault this girl? MR NDLOVU No not even touching her by the hand. ADV MPSHE MR WILLS CHAIRPERSON And Mr Mpshe just from personal knowledge and experience, it often happens that the summary of substantial facts differs substantially from the evidence that is ultimately led in a trial. But is there anything in the judgment relating to this, or is it just contained in the summary of substantial ... ADV MPSHE CHAIRPERSON ADV MPSHE Thank you Mr Chairman. The incident of this woman you have mentioned, did it happen before you could come across Bongane Ntombela or after? MR NDLOVU Our incident about this girl, it was before we met Bongane Ntombela. ADV MPSHE You remember in that case your defence was one of self-defence against Bongane Ntombela, do you remember that? MR NDLOVU: Yes it is like that. ADV MPSHE Was it the truth? MR NDLOVU CHAIRPERSON REQUESTS AUDIENCE TO CALM DOWN ADV MPSHE Today here as you said, you are telling the truth, am I right? MR NDLOVU ADV MPSHE And your intention today was to tell everything that happened on that day that led to the killing of Ntombela, not so - the full disclosure? MR NDLOVU Yes it is like that. ADV MPSHE But you will agree with me that the incident of the girl before you met Ntombela was not disclosed viva voce today? MR NDLOVU ADV MPSHE I see. And you were on the side of the IFP, fighting against anything that was ANC or UDF? MR NDLOVU ADV MPSHE I see. Perhaps I took this from what other applicants said. If I remember Hlongwane said: ...(no English translation) - so you were not part of that? MR NDLOVU Yes Chair as he has explained that we were different. We youths, we did not actually work with them, we were at Woody Glen. ADV MPSHE CHAIRPERSON Yes. ADV MPSHE Now finally Mr Ndlovu with reference to the Bongane Ntombela killing, you were at all relevant times operating as police when you killed him? MR NDLOVU We were not using the police in that incident, not as police. ADV MPSHE MR NDLOVU We walked on foot, we walked. ADV MPSHE Now finally, when you shot Ntombela, you said you shot him 4 times with a HMC, how far were you from him when you discharged the 4 shots? MR NDLOVU CHAIRPERSON And the witness indicates approximately 1 meter away, about the width of the table. ADV MPSHE MR NDLOVU That is correct. ADV MPSHE And one bullet at that distance would suffice to kill a person? MR NDLOVU Let me explain this, he did not die instantly, we heard that he died on his way to the hospital. Therefore I do not agree that one bullet would have killed him. CHAIRPERSON I suppose that depends on the accuracy of the shooting. ADV MPSHE Thank you Mr Chairman that will be all thanks.. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV MPSHE CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Mpshe. MR WILLS Mr Chairperson? CHAIRPERSON Yes? MR WILLS CHAIRPERSON Is this the attempted murder of - which incident is that? MR WILLS CHAIRPERSON FURTHER EXAMINATION BY MR WILLS Thank you. Mr Ndlovu after - you recall that you were also convicted in respect of attempted murders of certain policemen in the trial relating to the murder of Bongane? MR NDLOVU Yes, they were from the Murder and Robbery Unit in Pietermaritzburg. MR WILLS Can you tell the Committee just briefly what happened in that regard. MR NDLOVU MR WILLS MR NDLOVU MR WILLS Thank you Mr Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WILLS CHAIRPERSON Sorry just on that, were any of the policemen who you shot at injured or killed there, do you know? MR NDLOVU No-one was injured. CHAIRPERSON Yes thank you. Mr Stewart do you have any cross-examination on this new evidence? MR STEWART None Mr Chairperson. NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR STEWART CHAIRPERSON Mr Ngubane? MR NGUBANE No questions Mr Chair. NO QUESTIONS BY MR NGUBANE CHAIRPERSON Mr Hewitt? MR HEWITT No questions Mr Chairman. NO QUESTIONS BY MR HEWITT CHAIRPERSON Mr Mpshe? FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY ADV MPSHE This incident you have just described, are you asking for amnesty on it? MR NDLOVU Chair, this happened at one and the same time. It was just a second after I had finished shooting this person, these are not different incidents. Because I thought maybe these were MK members who had been with this boy or who were colleagues of this person. ADV MPSHE Alright to be more direct, for shooting at the police ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON How many policemen were there Mr Ndlovu? MR NDLOVU ADV MPSHE Chair can guide me, page 407? CHAIRPERSON MR WILLS ADV MPSHE CHAIRPERSON REQUESTS AUDIENCE TO CALM DOWN ADV MPSHE My question was, were they of your opposition, these policemen? MR NDLOVU Chair in actual fact I explained that I did not know whether they were policemen because they were in a private car. I thought that they may be colleagues of the deceased, therefore I cannot say for certain whether they were the political opponents, but I thought that they were colleagues, or part of MK. That is what I thought at the time. ADV MPSHE That will be all Mr Chairman, thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV MPSHE CHAIRPERSON Mr Wills do have any re-examination, not only out of this new evidence, but out of the cross-examination? MR WILLS No re-examination. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR WILLS CHAIRPERSON Ms Khampepe do you have any questions to ask the witness? MR NDLOVU MR NDLOVU About 15 to 20. MS KHAMPEPE MR NDLOVU That is correct. MS KHAMPEPE Can you briefly explain to us how you were able to recognise that Mr Ntombela had indeed been amongst the crowd of people who had passed such insolent remarks about your organisation and your leader? MR NDLOVU Chair this happened within a short space of time. When we returned, it was at about 2, after we had seen him at around midday. We recognised the clothes that he had been wearing before. MS KHAMPEPE What clothes had he been wearing? MR NDLOVU I think he had a yellowish jersey on, although I cannot remember what sort of pants he had. MS KHAMPEPE Were you able, from a crowd of approximately 15 to 20 people, still able to distinguish a person wearing simply a jersey, and by that kind of clothing only be able to associate that person as being amongst the crowd that had passed insolent remarks to you? MR NDLOVU MS KHAMPEPE When you met him for the second time, were you openly carrying your firearms? MR NDLOVU That is correct. MS KHAMPEPE Would you not have thought that he probably hesitated because he saw you in possession of firearms? MR NDLOVU MS KHAMPEPE MR NDLOVU I will explain this, I did not say it for a fact that he did kill him, but we thought he must have been part of the group that killed constable Nwabe at Imbali. MS KHAMPEPE Why did you think he was part of the group that killed constable Nwabe? On what grounds did you base your suspicion? MR NDLOVU It was a suspicion that we had because when we caught him we assaulted him and we were questioning him. MS KHAMPEPE So you only suspected that he might have killed constable Nwabe once you caught him? MR NDLOVU Even though it was not him who killed the constable, we must also, we should have done something in retaliation for the act that had been committed against the constable to actually relay a message to them that what they can do, we also can do. MS KHAMPEPE So that could have - your retaliation could have been metered out on any person other than Bongane Ntombela? MR NDLOVU I would say that he was unfortunate to meet us on that day. MS KHAMPEPE Yes. With regard to the incident which involved Mr Kanyele shooting a pregnant woman, do you recall that incident that you have testified to? MR NDLOVU Yes. MS KHAMPEPE What I want to know is, for what purpose you had gone to the house where the pregnant woman was. MR NDLOVU The person that we had been looking for from that house, the person who had been shooting at us had been in that yard and when we went there, we went there to search or to look for this person. But when we got there they refused to open the door, and that is how it came about that or the occupants of the house were shot at. MS KHAMPEPE Would I therefore be correct in saying that the original intention of going to that house was not to kill any of the occupants in the house? MR NDLOVU That is correct. MS KHAMPEPE Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Ms Khampepe. Mr Moloi do you have any questions. MR MOLOI Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Ndlovu from your evidence, especially the cross-examination or the examination rather by Mr Mpshe, I understand that at that trial you faced with regard to the murder of Ntombela, you devised a defence which you raised to protect yourself. Is that right? MR NDLOVU That is correct. MR MOLOI And did you testify at the hearing in support of this defence you raised? MR NDLOVU Yes I did testify. MR MOLOI And your evidence there must have been under oath, was it not? MR NDLOVU That is correct. MR MOLOI An oath to tell the truth and nothing else but the truth, right? MR NDLOVU That is correct. MR MOLOI And yet you did not tell the truth at that hearing, am I right? MR NDLOVU That is correct. MR MOLOI If your defence was upheld to you, you would have walked out there a free man. Is that correct with regard to ...(intervention) MR NDLOVU That is correct. MR MOLOI And you also gave evidence here today under oath, is it right? MR NDLOVU That is correct. MR MOLOI You say this Committee and the community should believe that you are now telling the truth under oath. Is that right? MR NDLOVU That is correct Chair. MR MOLOI Having told a lie under oath before, why in your mind, should this Committee and the community accept that today you are telling the truth? MR NDLOVU MR MOLOI But the end result, is it not so that the end result remains the same. If your defence at that trial was upheld, you would have walked out a free man. And equally should your application succeed today and be granted amnesty, you would walk out a free person. Is the end result not the same? MR NDLOVU I think that the family members of the victims do not know what happened in court. They just learnt that I had killed their child. I think that today they are going to heal and understand that what were the circumstances surrounding the death of their children. MR MOLOI And you must be believed in that regard, right? MR NDLOVU That is correct. MR MOLOI I have no further questions Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Mr Motata do you have any questions? MR MOTATA Just one Chairperson. Mr Ndlovu I just want to get some clarity on just one issue, and that is when you were trained and shown videos, you remember when you said you were shown videos on a Sunday evening or Sunday evenings, do you recall that? MR NDLOVU Yes that is correct. MR MOTATA And you say you were shown Inkatha people being burned, you recall that? MR NDLOVU That is correct. MR MOTATA Did you see in which areas within South Africa those people were burnt? MR NDLOVU MR MOTATA Were it not that you were told these people you see being burned, those are IFP people, but you never recognised any of those people to be IFP people. Would I be correct in so thinking or assuming? MR NDLOVU MR MOTATA You did not recognise any of those people you saw burning as IFP members, you did not, would I be right? MR NDLOVU No I did not see their faces but I did see people burning. MR MOTATA MR WILLS Mr Chairperson ...(intervention) MR DLADLA I thought my learned friend John was going to re-examine. I would say whatever I want to say after him. CHAIRPERSON MR NDLOVU Yes I did receive a salary because I was working. CHAIRPERSON Who did you receive the salary from? MR NDLOVU When I was in Kwa-Zulu there was a colonel Burger who used to come to Kwa-Zulu Natal stations to pay our salaries. There would be two of them, but I remember colonel Burger. CHAIRPERSON In what capacity did you receive this salary, in your capacity as a special constable or in your capacity as, or in any other capacity? MR NDLOVU I was receiving salary as a special constable. CHAIRPERSON Was it coming from the police, the South African Police? MR NDLOVU I was in the Kwa-Zulu Police at the time. CHAIRPERSON Yes thank you. Mr Wills do you have any questions arising out of questions put by the panel? MR WILLS No questions thank you Mr Chairperson. NO QUESTIONS BY MR WILLS CHAIRPERSON Mr Stewart? MR STEWART No thank you Mr Chair. CHAIRPERSON MR NGUBANE None. NO QUESTIONS BY MR NGUBANE CHAIRPERSON Mr Hewitt? FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HEWITT Yes I do Mr Chairman. Page 407 and 408 of your application for amnesty, I want to read what is written at the bottom of page 407, which is the nature in particular of an offence which you committed, and it reads as follows: "I was from the Imbali Hostel with other constables. While we were getting out from the township we came across two ANC supporters. One of the officers was wearing the full uniform, so it was clear from these two ANC supporters that we were the Kwa-Zulu Police officers. They drew firearms and shot us. One of them got killed, since we retaliated too." In an answer to a typed question, namely "state whether any person was injured, killed or suffered any damage" the answer "yes" is given by you. MR NDLOVU CHAIRPERSON MR HEWITT CHAIRPERSON MR NDLOVU Let me explain Chair, if I remember correctly the people at Westville did not want us to involve ourselves in the TRC process. Somebody came with an IFP lawyer, Nicky Britz, as well as captain Shlengwa, who was the head of the BSI, but was not working at the IFP office. They did not want us to involve ourselves with the TRC process because they said it was part of those people who were being used by the ANC to undermine their integrity. Therefore I realised that it will be difficult for me not to reveal what actually happened, just like the involvement of MZ Khumalo in incidents at Imbali, therefore it should be taken into consideration that they were afraid that I would actually undermine him. CHAIRPERSON So are you saying that you purposely told the wrong - your purposefully gave the wrong version in this first application, because of those reasons? MR NDLOVU MR HEWITT MR WILLS MR HEWITT NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HEWITT CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much Mr Hewitt, I understand what you say. Mr Mpshe do you have any ...[intervention] ADV MPSHE Mr Chair, if the Chair allows me to have a second bit? CHAIRPERSON Yes. FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY ADV MPSHE Mr Ndlovu you will recall my last question to you was under the killing of Bongane Ntombela, I said to you, at all relevant times you were operating as the police. Do you recall that question? MR NDLOVU Yes I do remember. ADV MPSHE Right. And your answer was "no", do you remember that? MR NDLOVU You spoke about a van and I said to you that we were on foot. That is what I remember. CHAIRPERSON ADV MPSHE Did you hear what the Chair said? MR NDLOVU Please repeat the question. CHAIRPERSON MR NDLOVU That is correct Chair. ADV MPSHE MR NDLOVU And then ...(intervention) ADV MPSHE MR NDLOVU That is correct. ADV MPSHE And when you filled in this application as you had indicated to me when I asked you a question about full disclosure, you wanted here to tell the truth because you told the court not the truth, am I right? MR NDLOVU That is correct. ADV MPSHE And whatever is in this application will be the truth? MR NDLOVU Chair I explained that firstly, this is not my handwriting, I was actually guided on how to write this application so as to protect the other people that I mentioned before. ADV MPSHE I see, who guided you? MR NDLOVU There was captain Nshlengo who had come with an IFP lawyer, a Mr De Klerk. ADV MPSHE But despite that, your feeling was to tell the Truth Commission the truth? MR NDLOVU That is correct. ADV MPSHE "As they the KZP I was justified to act in defence of myself, the reason being that that place Imbali Township is a ANC base. Some of the K.P. officers who had been killed and were still under surveillance and threatened by the ANC military wing" Do you see that? MR NDLOVU Yes I see it. ADV MPSHE MR NDLOVU That is correct. ADV MPSHE MR NDLOVU ...(no audible answer) MR MOLOI ADV MPSHE MR NDLOVU ADV MPSHE MR WILLS Sorry with respect Mr Chairperson, he has to my mind answered the question. CHAIRPERSON ADV MPSHE I will leave it at that Mr Chairman. But ...(intervention) MS KHAMPEPE MR NDLOVU I think we met in a hall, I think it was one of the IFP members who is rather educated as well Mr De Klerk and captain Shlengwa. I do not remember exactly who it was, they were in a hurry and they wanted this to be mailed urgently to Cape Town, so I cannot remember what was happening exactly at the hall. MS KHAMPEPE And Mr De Klerk, was he the one who was advising that person who was writing what to write in your application form? MR NDLOVU CHAIRPERSON And just - sorry Ms - how did it come about that you completed the other application form then, the one that was signed on the 26th of September 1997, if you look at page 418? MR NDLOVU CHAIRPERSON Yes Mr Mpshe? ADV MPSHE Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Ndlovu you were present in court at your trial when witnesses were testifying. CHAIRPERSON ADV MPSHE Chairman I was trying to avoid it being said that "how do you know that he was not rude in court and evidence was given in his absence", the criminal procedure act makes room for that Mr Chair. CHAIRPERSON Yes I know but I think we can assume - he said he was there. ADV MPSHE Do you remember a certain Mr Dladla testifying? MR NDLOVU Yes I remember him. ADV MPSHE Do you remember what Mr Dladla testified - when Mr Dladla testified, he testified about the two girls and Ntombela being killed when he came to rescue the two girls you were assaulting? MR NDLOVU MR WILLS Mr Chairperson I ...(intervention) MS KHAMPEPE MR WILLS MR STEWART Mr Chairperson ...(intervention) ADV MPSHE CHAIRPERSON Sorry Mr Stewart, Mr Mpshe what are you trying to establish here, that Mr Ndlovu molested those girls? ADV MPSHE CHAIRPERSON Yes but he was acquitted on that charge - was there not a charge - what was he acquitted on here? MR WILLS CHAIRPERSON No charge, yes. ADV MPSHE So I was just trying to put the record straight, that the summary of facts has been substantiated in the evidence, it is not cross-examination on him on what was said by Mr Dladla, and that is all. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV MPSHE MR STEWART Sorry, if I could just make a final comment on that issue, the summary of substantial facts was not confirmed in the evidence, rather the reverse happened, and the judge made no findings in regard to that aspect of the indictment. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Hewitt, just on the point that you raised about the - when the case was finalised, I note that the judgment in this matter was delivered on the 1st of October 1993. So I think at the time in 1996, you know, the trial was - had been completed for some years. MR HEWITT Yes I have now seen that for the first time as well. MS KHAMPEPE Mr Ndlovu I have understood the reason advanced by you for having submitted the application dated the 12th of December to have been to protect the IFP at the advice of captain Shlengwa and the legal representatives, and I have understood you to be saying that the IFP was not encouraging you to apply for amnesty since it had no confidence in the process of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission. If that is so, why was it necessary for them to even come to you to request you to apply for amnesty? MR NDLOVU Who are you referring to? MS KHAMPEPE MR NDLOVU I explained that they said that whoever wants to volunteer, but knowing very well that they are not going to implicate the IFP, may submit an application, but they will not be able to represent anybody who implicated the IFP. Therefore those who submitted applications at that time, we did as they had directed us. MS KHAMPEPE My concern is your evidence that they have no confidence in the process, yet they went out of their way to come to you to give you application forms and request you to complete those application forms for purposes of being part of the process that they had no confidence in. MR NDLOVU We also troubled them, we would phone Ulundi - I even wrote a letter to Dr M G Buthelezi asking him what he was doing about us, the people who had been fighting for Inkatha, and he said I should speak to captain Shlengwa and Nicky Brits - people who frequented the prison. I told him that these people had never given us anything concrete because we were now in jail, our families were in hardships, but they were not helping us. Therefore Dr Buthelezi directed us to these people, these people who were not helping us in any way. MS KHAMPEPE Thank you Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Yes Mr Wills? MR WILLS Yes very briefly Mr Chairperson, just on that matter arising. Your evidence is to the effect that Mr De Klerk, captain Shlengwa and a person by the name of Nicky Brits attended at the prison and assisted you in the first amnesty application that you submitted. Is that correct? MR NDLOVU Yes I think that is what I was explaining. MR WILLS MR NDLOVU That is correct. MR WILLS And that is why this first application arose? MR NDLOVU: That is correct Chair. MR WILLS You then contacted the Truth Commission because you wanted to tell the truth and they organised Legal Aid, and as a result of that I was eventually allocated to do the application. Is that correct? MR NDLOVU That is correct. MR WILLS And that the contents in your final application, the one where I was involved with submitting, is to the best of your recollections, the truth in this matter? MR NDLOVU That is correct Chair. MR WILLS CHAIRPERSON Yes thank you Mr Wills. MR WILLS CHAIRPERSON Perhaps if a photocopy could be made of it and given to Mr Mpshe please. Are you going to be leading, Mr Stewart and Mr Wills, any further evidence in respect of the applicants that we have heard so far? MR STEWART Mr Chairperson, Mr Ngubane had indicated to me his intention of making an application to re-open the cross-examination of Mr Lethuli on behalf of the victims who did not have notice that Mr Lethuli would be giving evidence on incidents in this area in Durban earlier in the year, and that application is not objected to by myself on behalf Mr Lethuli. CHAIRPERSON Mr Wills, any further witnesses you intend calling? MR WILLS CHAIRPERSON MR STEWART I have no objection. MR NGUBANE I have no objection Mr Chairman. MR WILLS I have no objection. CHAIRPERSON WITNESS EXCUSED