amntrans AMNESTY HEARING 1998-08-11 VANDERBIJLPARK 1 VINCENT KUSAHUSA KHANYILE AM 6124/97 BOIPATONG MASSACRE https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=52808&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1998/98081114_vdb_2boipat1.htm CHAIRPERSON Good morning ladies and gentlemen, welcome to this continuation of the hearings. We apologise for commencing somewhat late. As is always the case, it is somewhat difficult to commence on time during the first date of the hearing, but we hope we will make up for the lost time by sitting until late and starting at 9 o'clock as from tomorrow morning. Yes, Mr Strydom? MR STRYDOM Chairperson, I call my first applicant, Vincent Khanyile. MR BERGER Chairperson, before my learned friend calls Mr Khanyile, might I please be allowed to make a formal application. The application concerns a person by the name of Andries Nosenga who has made application ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON I don't hear anything. MR BERGER Who has made application for amnesty for his part in the Boipatong massacre and who is not presently before the Committee. According to the contents of a draft affidavit which was apparently annexed to his amnesty application, he has a version which is radically different from the version of the applicants presently before the Committee. In particular in our submission Chairperson, the contents of Mr Nosenga's application and in particular the evidence that he might give before this Committee are essential for the purposes of cross-examination. We need to know exactly what it is that he is going to say to the Committee so that we can cross-examine the remaining applicants. It also might happen Chairperson, that once the applicants have heard Mr Nosenga, and in particular what he says in his affidavit, that they might change their versions or might not, or amplify their versions. We would ask that Mr Nosenga's application be heard before the other applicants because, in our submission, if it is not it will necessitate the recall of each and every one of the applicants after Mr Nosenga has given his evidence. CHAIRPERSON Have you finished? Mr Prior? MR PRIOR Mr Chairman, I can simply report that I've set in motion arrangements to get Mr Nosenga to the hearings. He is currently in prison at Vereeniging and steps have been taken this morning to get him here. Mr Chairman, I would submit that in the normal course he would still have to be enrolled, as yet he is not before the Committee. We don't know at this stage whether he is represented by anyone and obviously we would have to make those enquiries as well Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, it is my view that we should proceed with the hearing subject obviously to Mr Nosenga being enrolled, whether that occur later this afternoon or tomorrow. I submit that whoever is being questioned can be questioned or recalled on that specific aspect. I submit there would be no prejudice in that situation, in other words that the proceedings proceed until Mr Nosenga has in fact enrolled. MR STRYDOM Mr Chairperson, Mr Nosenga's application is not before the Committee at this stage and I can see no basis upon which we must delay the proceedings pending his enrolment. The fact of the matter is that the legal representative for the family can put the version of Mr Nosenga to the various applicants and they can answer to that version at this stage. So I ask that the proceedings carry on. MS PRETORIUS Mr Chairman, I fully agree with my learned friend, Mr Strydom, because Mr Mthembu has already given his evidence and it will not have any bearing on him but we only have an unsigned affidavit by this said Nosenga at this stage so I don't even think there's a proper ...[inaudible] MR FREDERICH I have no submissions in this regard Mr Chairperson. MR BERGER Chairperson, if I could just place on record that we deliberately did not go into the details of what occurred in Boipatong on the night of the massacre, so as far as putting a version to the applicants, it would of necessity be selective and might not necessarily be full. MICROPHONES SWITCHED OFF CHAIRPERSON Mr Berger who appears on behalf of the victims has made an application to the effect that an amnesty application by one, ...[indistinct] Matanzima Nosenga, to which is annexed an unsigned affidavit, be heard prior to the remaining applications being heard. The application by Mr Nosenga is not before us in the sense that it has not been enrolled. All we have is an unsigned affidavit by him and the application for amnesty which has also been handed to us is incomplete, it doesn't have the signature page, although it does appear from the application itself that it was given an application number, that is 2778 of 1996. We've been informed by Mr Prior that arrangements have now been made to bring Mr Nosenga to these hearings. It seems to us that until such time that Mr Nosenga is here, confirms the contents of his application, it would be inadvisable to delay these proceedings. Accordingly, we will proceed with the evidence of the remaining applicants. MR STRYDOM I will ask that Mr Khanyile be sworn in. MR LAX Mr Khanyile, could we have your full names for the record please? MR KHANYILE Vincent Kusahusa Khanyile. VINCENT KUSAHUSA KHANYILE (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Yes, Mr Strydom? EXAMINATION BY MR STRYDOM Thank you Chairperson. Mr Khanyile, you have signed a form applying for amnesty in terms of Section 18 of the Amnesty Act, is that correct? MR KHANYILE That is correct. MR STRYDOM In front of you you have that form, can you just confirm your signature on the last page thereof? That appears on page 95 of the fist bundle. MR KHANYILE Yes, it is mine. MR STRYDOM Also annexed to this form appears two pages that provide for certain answers to certain questions contained in that form, do you confirm the contents thereof? MR KHANYILE Yes, it is so. CHAIRPERSON Are you referring to pages 96 and 97? MR STRYDOM Indeed so, Mr Chairman. Then certain further particulars were requested and that request appears on page 98 and 99 of the bundle, and I want your answer to confirm the correctness of further particulars contained on page 101 and 102 of the bundle. Were those the answers you gave? MR KHANYILE Yes, it is true. MR STRYDOM And then I want to refer you to an affidavit contained from page 103 to 106 of the bundle. If you can firstly look at page 106, do you confirm your signature on that document? MR KHANYILE It is correct. MR STRYDOM Now this statement, or did you have insight into this statement again before you started testifying? MR KHANYILE It is correct. MR STRYDOM Do you confirm that contents thereof? MR KHANYILE That's true. MR STRYDOM Now I want to return to the application as contained in Form 1 and I want to refer you to the answer to questions 10(a). You have an Afrikaans copy in front of you and I will read in Afrikaans "Meld politieke oogmerk wat bereik wou word" The answer to that question is contained on page 96. I am going to read certain portions to you and I want further comment on what is stated here. "Die politieke oogmerk wat bereik wou word met die aanval op Boipatong was om die oorwegend ANC beheerde en gesinde Boipatong 'n les to leer en om meer spesifiek die 'Self-defence Units' van die ANC te neutraliseer. Die rede daarvoor was die vyandige gesindheid wat geheers het tussen die IFP en die ANC gesinde 'Self-defence Units'" Mr Khanyile, can you at this stage just give us your comments on what is stated here, especially with regard to the problems between the ANC and the IFP? MR KHANYILE I do agree with what has been read, but what I don't know is I'm not too sure if the advocate expects me to explain about the enmity as to why they were our enemies. MR STRYDOM Yes, that's the question. MR KHANYILE Okay. I will first explain and say the beginning of the problem was in July when we had a rally at the stadium at Zone 7. When we came back from the rally we discovered that anyone who spoke Zulu, that was the day upon which they will be killed. From there, on the 22nd of July, we were not able to go back to our places or to our homes. A person left his home or her home without anything. Our possessions were confiscated from us. Even those who were selling such things like fridges, such stock was confiscated from them and the cars were burnt as well. It was evident that we had no place of refuge. From there we ran away to the office, to the Zulu Government in Vereeniging. MR STRYDOM Can I just stop you here, which office do you refer to? MR KHANYILE I'm referring to the office that was representing the Zulu nation which was in Vereeniging. The leader there or the head there was Vivian Velase(?) of the office. MR STRYDOM Was that an IFP office? MR KHANYILE Yes, it was because everything that had to do with IFP we did it from that office. MR STRYDOM Were you a member of the IFP at that stage? MR KHANYILE Yes. MR STRYDOM Did you hold any office with the IFP? MR KHANYILE No, I held no office. MR STRYDOM Will you then continue from where you went to this office? MR LAX Just before you do, if I could just clarify something, you were going very quickly unfortunately and I didn't pick up everything. You mentioned a date and I didn't catch it very clearly, was it the 22nd of July, is that what you said? MR KHANYILE Yes, that is correct. MR LAX Was that the date of the rally? MR KHANYILE Yes, that is correct. MR LAX So from that date onward things got bad for you, is that what you're saying? MR KHANYILE Yes, I'm trying to explain that as from the 22nd or as from the 22 onwards, the situation got volatile. MR LAX What year was that? That is the other thing I just wanted to check. MR KHANYILE It was 1990. MR LAX Thank you. MR SIBANYONI Just another clarification, you started by saying it was an office for KwaZulu government but you ended up agreeing that it was an IFP office, I want to get clarity on that. What type of office was it, was it the office for the IFP political party or was it the office which was representing the KwaZulu government like it was done in the olden days, that every homeland would have an office in the urban areas? MR KHANYILE What I could be in a position to explain would be, if that is true, it was an office representing the KwaZulu Government, yet the IFP activities as well would be addressed there. Like the IFP members, the majority were Zulus and everything would be discussed and addressed from the very same office. MR LAX Perhaps I could just assist. Mr Mvelasi, I have a recollection somewhere the he was the Urban Representative of the KwaZulu Government, is that correct? MR KHANYILE Yes, that's correct. MR STRYDOM Can you just please continue with your evidence, from where you went to this office? INTERPRETER The speaker's microphone is not on. The Interpreter has a problem, the speaker's microphone is not on. MR LAX Please just hold on, there's a small technical problem. PROBLEMS WITH SOUND EQUIPMENT MR KHANYILE From there hell broke loose. As we were workers we were harassed and the majority of us, as the office was not too big or was small, it became clear and evident that we can not occupy the office, all of us. The life that we led was traumatic because we had to seek refuge in some bush nearby Sasol, where a white man sympathised with us and we came across, or we met the Red Cross workers and they erected some tents for us so we were able to have comfort and we attributed all of that to the white man who helped us with the place of refuge. From there we continued in the same state or conditions that we were being harassed and people were burnt all over the Vaal triangle or were set alight. In fact, if you were speaking Zulu you would definitely be killed. If you had an affair with a Zulu man you would definitely be killed. If you were seen anywhere talking to a Zulu person you would be killed, no doubt about that. If your neighbour hated you so much, maybe you had beautiful things or admirable things, he would tell on you to the comrades and claim that you were Inkatha and therefore you will be killed. The Zulu kids who were children or whose parents were Inkatha members, from 1990 they never went to school, they lost education. MR STRYDOM When did you move into the kwaMadala Hostel? MR KHANYILE After we left that place of refuge we found a place called kwaMadala Hostel, it was towards the end of October 1990. We discovered a place that was not occupied and we did not even ask anyone or from anyone, we just decided to occupy that place with no permission from anybody. That is how we entered the kwaMadala Hostel in October 1990. That went on, the harassment went on. As we were still at kwaMadala Hostel, we were ordinary workers and we were never able to have transport that could take us or that could transport us from the hostel to work. People who did try to transport us to work were terrified and they left us alone. MR STRYDOM Can you just give the Committee more information about the people that went to kwaMadala Hostel, who were they, who did they sympathise with and to which political party did they belong? MR KHANYILE I will try to explain in this fashion: When all of this went on, the killing of people or the killing of Zulu-speaking people, there was a rumour that came from the ANC structures that was forwarded to their members, to the ANC members that is, that they should leave the word that says: "We are killing Zulus" because there as people in KwaZulu that are Inkatha as well and that word was left alone. Instead there was a precise statement that they were killing Inkatha people, not necessarily the Zulus. I would say the people who were at kwaMadala Hostel were the IFP members, the majority was Zulu-speaking people or the Zulus. MR STRYDOM Now you refer to the Zulu people that were killed, who killed them, according to your knowledge? MR KHANYILE According to my knowledge we were being killed by the ANC members. MR STRYDOM In your application you refer to: "Self-defence Units", can you just tell the Committee more about these units? MR KHANYILE The Self-defence Unit was a group of youths which ordained itself as a group of warriors and going out or they deployed themselves to kill the IFP members and to set the houses of IFP members alight. MR STRYDOM Reference is also made to: "comrades" in your application, were they the same group or a different group? MR KHANYILE I mean the same group. MR STRYDOM Now during the time that you stayed in kwaMadala Hostel, did you have any personal experiences of attacks on your own life or people with you? MR KHANYILE I don't quite understand your question, would you please repeat it? MR STRYDOM Whilst staying at kwaMadala Hostel, did you move out of the hostel into Boipatong township or any township for that matter, and experience any problems yourself? MR KHANYILE No, I never left kwaMadala Hostel. MR STRYDOM Do you know a person by the name of Bongani Mbatha? MR KHANYILE Yes, I do know him. MR STRYDOM Can you tell the Committee what happened to him? MR KHANYILE Bongani Mbatha was arrested in Boipatong location and I was with him at the time. If I'm not mistaken I think we were about 10 in number, a group of 10, that is. We were at a tavern by the name of, I believe it's Checkers or Trekkers Tavern ...[intervention] INTERPRETER The speaker is not too sure. MR KHANYILE When we were still there in that jubilant mood we heard that noise outside and we got outside to see and we realised that the situation had changed and we tried to go back to the place, or to our home. As it was still the situation we realised that there was an attack going on. We saw a police van and we enlisted some help from them, in a sense that we wanted a lift with the police in their van and they refused us a lift and they said we should follow them instead, walk behind the van until they had escorted us outside the location but it did not happen like that. As people were grouping and gathering the police also left us alone. They threw stones at us, and that was the beginning of the attack. Fortunately Mr Mbatha got hold of a stick on the ground. As the person who had something one like a jacket I advised him to put that stick right inside his jacket, to hide it so to speak and pretend as if he is drawing out a gun from his jacket. We tried to walk upwards towards the taxi rank and the people were following us, throwing stones at us, back and forth that is. When I realised that we were seriously being attacked and that in no time they would get hold of us and we will be captured, I pretended as if I'm drawing something from my jacket, like a gun and they made way or they gave way to us. We were able now to run away, to escape from them. They never gave up, they still ran after us. I consistently pretend as if I'm drawing a gun out of my jacket. Unfortunately as we were about to gain exit, Mr Mbatha was hit and he fell on the ground instantly. We took off, we left him because we could not help him in any way. He was stabbed by stakes or the garden equipment. He was injured. One thing that pains me is that he was hit just before we were saved because we were just about to escape completely from the group. He was assaulted severely and they tried to pour paraffine on his body and the police emerged immediately and they helped him or they took him with. That is how far I know inasfar as Mbatha's case is concerned. MR STRYDOM This Mr Mbatha, was he a member of the IFP? MR KHANYILE Yes, it is true. MR STRYDOM At that stage was he a resident of the kwaMadala Hostel? MR KHANYILE Yes, that's correct. MR STRYDOM Approximately how long before the 17th of June 1992, when this attack took place, did this incident take place? MR KHANYILE It didn't take long, although I have no clear recollection inasfar as that or estimation is concerned. MR STRYDOM In front of me I have a newspaper clipping, that is Exhibit K. I want to read certain portions ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Where is Mr Mbatha now? MR KHANYILE Mr Mbatha died. CHAIRPERSON Do you know what the cause of his death was? MR KHANYILE He died in that attack. MR STRYDOM I want to refer you to Exhibit K, that is an extract of the Sunday Star dated the 28th of June 1992 and I want your personal comments about what is stated here "On June the 13th/14th, the weekend before the massacre, at least three people were murdered in Boipatong. The first was a woman named Nomvula, accused of consorting with her Inkatha boyfriend and dispatched in the small hours of Saturday" Do you have any personal knowledge about this? MR KHANYILE Yes, I do. MR STRYDOM Can you tell the Committee more about this incident? MR KHANYILE What I know or it's what I heard was the attack or her attack when she got killed was because she had an Inkatha boyfriend but I did not know her personally. MR STRYDOM I carry on quoting "The second was David Mbele, a 37 year old Boipatong resident and school teacher ... ...[intervention] MR BERGER Chairperson, might I object at this stage, I know this is not a court of law but my learned friend is just leading the witness, reading out the evidence and asking the witness to confirm. I submit that it would have more value if the witness was asked a direct question and gave his evidence in that fashion. MR STRYDOM Mr Chairperson, I can just refer the Committee to page 104 of his affidavit where he already stated this under oath and he mentioned the names of Mr Mbele and Nomvula in his affidavit which is already before the Committee. CHAIRPERSON Is there any issue about the contents of this report? MR BERGER Yes, there are certain facts which I will put to the witness. I'm sorry Chairperson, I don't know what the question is. CHAIRPERSON What I want to find out, because I don't know where it's going to take us to get into side issues without getting into the real reason why we are here. What I want to find out is, are the contents of Exhibit K in issue, is there any dispute about that report? MR BERGER There is no dispute about the fact that people were killed, what is in dispute is the reason for the killings. CHAIRPERSON For the sake of progress, would you just ask the witness whether he knows these persons? MR STRYDOM I will do so. Mr Khanyile, did you know or did you know a certain person with the name of David Mbele? MR KHANYILE I knew him from hearing about him, not in person. MR STRYDOM Before the attack on Boipatong, what did you hear about him? MR KHANYILE I heard that he was attacked by a group. he was attacked by a group of people which was estimated to 400 in number that is. The reason we got to hear was that he was attacked simply by being a Zulu and observing the Zulu rituals. MR STRYDOM During that period did you know a certain person by the name of B L Khumalo? MR KHANYILE I knew that person personally. MR STRYDOM Was he a member of the Inkatha Freedom Party? MR KHANYILE Yes, that is correct. MR STRYDOM Before the attack on Boipatong, did you hear what happened to him? MR KHANYILE He was attacked in Boipatong and was set alight from morning until midday and died on the spot. MR STRYDOM In your own mind, during that period, who was responsible for killing these people with Zulu or Inkatha connections? MR KHANYILE They were killed by the youth of ANC in the location. MR STRYDOM I want to refer you again to page 96 of your application. In the middle of the page it reads "'n Verdere politieke oogmerk was om aan die ANC te toon dat die IFP nie sou toelaat dat ANC lede IFP lede se lewens reguleer en ons bewegings vryheid beperk nie" Can you just explain to the Committee what you mean by that? MR KHANYILE This means the fact that I was trying to explain was the ANC couldn't have done anything at liberty, we were also expected or supposed to show them that we are people as well and we are capable of doing what they were doing, the acts of violence as well. MR STRYDOM What was the general feeling amongst the residents of the kwaMadala Hostel prior to the attack, in relation to the killings that were ongoing? MR KHANYILE As a person, I will filled with revenge, wanted to avenge. MR STRYDOM And I continue on page 96 Do you have any comment to make at this stage? MR KHANYILE I did not quite understand this part. MR STRYDOM According to you, at that stage who was supporting the Self-defence Units? MR KHANYILE The community at large in the Vaal triangle. MR STRYDOM Would that include the Boipatong community? MR KHANYILE Yes, that's correct. MR STRYDOM You also make mention of some kind of attack that was launched by the community or the Self-defence Units from Boipatong on kwaMadala Hostel, can you just tell us more about that? MR KHANYILE What I would say is, the attack of kwaMadala Hostel was by the Vaal Triangle at large. MR STRYDOM But was there any specific attack in the full sense of the word, on kwaMadala Hostel, or might I say attempted attack? MR KHANYILE It happened many times. I do trust and hope that there is no-one who doesn't this because it became a practise that people kept saying they are going to attack the kwaMadala Hostel. MR STRYDOM To get to the attack itself, when did you become aware for the first time that an attack was going to take place on Boipatong? MR KHANYILE What I know firstly with regard to Boipatong attack, there was a meeting convened where as a community of kwaMadala Hostel or hostel dwellers we complained to our leaders that why would they be so quiet when we were being harassed and tortured in this manner because those days people who were after us were Boipatong community or Boipatong people. The leaders therefore said they understood perfectly well what we were complaining about and they were going to sit down and think over this matter. There was another meeting that was held. CHAIRPERSON Do you know when this meeting was? MR KHANYILE I don't quite remember but it may happen that it took three weeks prior to the attack. And again there was a meeting that convened, that I trust it took or it was held a week prior to the attack where Mr Bhekinkosi Mkhize attended and told us that each and every man had to get himself ready or prepared. MR STRYDOM If I can interrupt you, ...[intervention] MR KHANYILE There is something I would like to explain or get straight. I would like to get this first point straight: It was not a meeting that was about what I just explained, it was an ordinary meeting, a general meeting, that after the meeting was over we had complaints which were lodged by certain people, forwarded to the leaders ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Is this the meeting that was held approximately three weeks before the attack on Boipatong? MR LAX Sorry, I didn't catch your answer there. MR KHANYILE I did respond. MR LAX What was your answer? MR KHANYILE I said there was a meeting. The meeting I'm referring to is the one that took place three weeks prior to the attack, Boipatong that is. MR STRYDOM Who were the leaders at that meeting? MR KHANYILE I think I will take this opportunity and explain about the leaders at kwaMadala Hostel. Firstly there was a committee, a large committee which was referred to as a Senior Committee. The Chairman of that Committee was Thembikosi Khumalo. His assistant was Richard Ndwandwa. The Secretary was Jerome Zuma. I've forgotten his assistant. CHAIRPERSON Who have you forgotten? MR KHANYILE The assistant to the Secretary, I've forgotten his name. The Treasurer was Swenke Buthelezi and his assistant was a man I knew as Ngobese, and the organiser was Gazu. Gazu is one of those who were killed at Boipatong. I only recall those from the Senior Committee. We had a Youth Committee. The Chairman was Nicholas Buthelezi, his assistant was Victor Mthembu. The Secretary was Matabelo. CHAIRPERSON Mr Khanyile, would you just speak slowly so that we can make notes of what you're saying. The Chairperson was Nicholas Buthelezi? MR KHANYILE Yes, that's true. Matabelo, that is, his assistant was Tzwee and another one that I knew was Bazooga. Others I knew them from seeing them but I did not know their names. CHAIRPERSON Do you know what the other names of Tzwee are? MR KHANYILE No, I only know that one. CHAIRPERSON Do you know what are the other names of Bazooga? MR KHANYILE No, I knew him as Bazooga. MR LAX You say you knew the others by sight, approximately how many members of that committee were there? MR KHANYILE According to my knowledge there were eight in each committee. Senior Committee had eight, as well as the Youth Committee had eight members. MR LAX Were you a member of any of those committees? MR KHANYILE No. MR STRYDOM These committees, were they IFP Committees or hostel committees? MR KHANYILE These committees that I've referred to were IFP Committees, now I am proceeding to the hostel committees. We also had another committee that was dealing with the hostel problems. The committee of the kwaMadala Hostel were also the employees of ISCOR, working in ISCOR. Firstly, the one that was in charge of that place or the area was Mr Moses Mthembu and another man whose name I have forgotten although I remember his surname and he was Kumane and three others who were working as security men who were controlling the entrance and the exit, or the coming in and the going out of people. One of them was Mr Shohisa and the other was Mr Nthule and Mr Mkwanazi. These are the ones who were in charge inside. We also had another committee or maybe the Indunas, they were two only ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON These Induna, they were not part of the house committee? MR KHANYILE No. ...[No English translation] MR LAX Sorry, we're not getting any translation. Mr Khanyile, can you just repeat from the point where you started talking about the Indunas Committee. MR KHANYILE Okay. There were two Indunas, the first Induna was Bhekinkosi Mkhize and his assistant was, I knew him as Mzizi. Those were the ones who were in charge or who were our leaders. Each time we had traditional weapons. And again there was Vanana Zulu. Vanana was a Prince. He had no position that he occupied but as a child from royal family or his is a prince and he was amongst us being the majority Zulus. We always acknowledged him as our leader. There is nothing that would take place without consulting him. That is how the hierarchy was at the kwaMadala Hostel. There's a slight thing that I'm forgetting. We had also had another committee which dealt with the death. As we lost so many souls we had a committee that specifically dealt with that, collecting of money for the preparation of funerals, we were just the two of us. Myself I was the collector of monies, in fact I was something like a secretary and there was another one that I was working with and he was taken as a chairman of this two-man committee. I am forgetting his name. His surname is Mpungosi. I have forgotten his first name, Mpungosi is his name, I've forgotten his first name. That is how the hierarchy of leadership was at the kwaMadala Hostel. MR STRYDOM In your application you make mention of a person with the name of Damarra Chonco, what was his position? MR KHANYILE Damarra Chonco, I'm remembering now, he was one of the Senior Committee members. The ones I have already listed for you, he was one. He formed part of the Senior Committee. This was a man whom we knew very well. We collected the money and he would be in a position to go and buy weapons to protect ourselves, he said. MR STRYDOM I want to take you back to the meeting you've mentioned that took place three weeks before the attack. That is the meeting which you said was a general meeting about some of the residents who started to complain about their situation. Who was chairing that meeting? MR KHANYILE I don't remember. MR STRYDOM Then you made mention of another meeting approximately a week before the attack, what was the nature of that meeting? MR KHANYILE This was a meeting just like other meetings we used to hold, but at the end of that meeting Mr Mkhize conveyed a message to the effect that each and every man should be right next to his possessions or should get ready or be prepared. CHAIRPERSON Was this said at the first or the second meeting? MR KHANYILE The second meeting. CHAIRPERSON What did you understand him to mean when he said each person must stay near his things? MR KHANYILE I understood him to be saying the day is close or nearby for revenge or retaliation. CHAIRPERSON And what were the people required to do? MR KHANYILE I don't quite understand your question. CHAIRPERSON That each and every person had to stay near his things, what I want you to tell us is what did you understand him to mean by staying by your things? MR KHANYILE According to my understanding, I understood him to be saying that this means the day of revenge is around the corner or is nearby or is approaching closely, because he did not want to expand in his statement or explain in detail but that was my understanding. MR STRYDOM Apart from the - let me just ask you this, who spoke when he said that? MR KHANYILE Please repeat your question. MR STRYDOM Who said that you must be close to your things? MR KHANYILE That was Mr Mkhize who was explaining that we must stay next to our things and get ready and be prepared. MR STRYDOM Is that all that he said in relation to a possible attack? MR KHANYILE Yes, that was all. MR STRYDOM Now that was a week prior to the attack because we know that that attack took place on the 17th of June 1992. Now during the course of that week before the attack, did you hear anything further about this attack? MR KHANYILE No. MR STRYDOM When was the next occasion that you heard anything about the attack? MR KHANYILE It was on Wednesday the 17th, around 8p.m. or 8 at night. MR STRYDOM Now just to curtail the proceedings somewhat, I just want to read to you certain portions of your affidavit on page 104, the last paragraph on that page Can you remember what Mkhize said? MR KHANYILE No, I don't remember. MR BERGER Chairperson, I've already made the objection once. If I understood your ruling, I've been overruled to object on this basis, am I correct? CHAIRPERSON This is his affidavit that he's reading. MR BERGER That is correct. My learned friend is just going to read passages to the witness instead of asking him direct questions. CHAIRPERSON Continue Mr Strydom. MR STRYDOM After you went to the stadium, did you return to your room? MR KHANYILE Yes. MR STRYDOM Did you fetch a weapon? MR KHANYILE What happened is when we went back to our houses to fetch the weapons we went back to the stadium, after we fetched our weapons. MR STRYDOM Now can you just tell the Committee what happened then. MR KHANYILE I will say that at the time when Damarra stated that this is the day every man should go and fetch whatever he has in a form of weapons, so to speak. He explained thereafter that - and the ones who were willing to have in their possession weapons like AK, they can contact him. I therefore went to the house and I fetched my spear and brought my spear with. After that I got some traditional herbs or I was given some traditional herbs. MR STRYDOM Is that called: "Ntelezi"? MR KHANYILE It's called Ntelezi, yes. MR STRYDOM Did you see AK47 rifles in the vicinity of the stadium or inside the stadium? MR KHANYILE Yes, I did see them at the stadium. MR STRYDOM Did you see how they got there? MR KHANYILE No, I only saw them lying on the ground at the stadium. MR STRYDOM Do you take an Ak47 rifle? MR KHANYILE No. MR STRYDOM Who let the people out to the township, Boipatong? MR KHANYILE Please repeat the last part of your question. MR STRYDOM Who let the residents of kwaMadala Hostel out of the hostel towards Boipatong? MR KHANYILE Even though I'm not in a position to say exactly who was leading as I was right at the back, I do trust and hope that it was Mr Mkhize, although I'm not quite sure about this. MR STRYDOM Can you tell the Committee now in your own words exactly which route was followed and where did you enter Boipatong? MR STRYDOM Well perhaps Mr Khanyile, you should start by telling us what happened after you had been sprinkled with Ntelezi, do you understand that? MR KHANYILE If I remember very well we started chanting some songs and we left. MR STRYDOM Which route did you follow to Boipatong? MR KHANYILE We used the kwaMadala gate which no longer exists. We went under the bridge. After passing the bridge we left the tarred road and we took a foot path which turns to your right towards Boipatong. We passed the main road, we crossed the main road coming from town, which comes from town. CHAIRPERSON Beyond the bridge you took the foot path? MR KHANYILE Yes, after passing the bridge we took a small path, a foot path which was on our right. CHAIRPERSON And thereafter? MR KHANYILE We crossed the main road which comes from Vanderbijl going towards Sebokeng. MR STRYDOM Is that called: Nobel Boulevard or Frikkie Meyer Boulevard? MR KHANYILE Yes, that's correct. CHAIRPERSON What is the name of the road Sir? MR STRYDOM It's Frikkie Meyer Boulevard, I just want to get clarity. MR STRYDOM After you crossed the Frikkie Meyer Boulevard, which route did you follow? MR KHANYILE We crossed on a small bridge, it's a small bridge used by pedestrians, we proceeded. Even if I don't know Boipatong very well, I'm sure that we used a straight street, we entered it to a straight called Sheshwe(?). I think it is the last street on your right-hand side. MR LAX Sorry, just repeat the name of the street please. MR KHANYILE I said even if I'm not very much sure, I think it was Moshweshwe Street because it is the last street on your right-hand side. MR STRYDOM Before the group got to Moshweshwe Street, did you come to a standstill or not? MR KHANYILE I think we did stop under a tree. MR STRYDOM Do you know why you stopped there? MR KHANYILE It was going to be clarified that we should enter the place and look around, look for comrades. MR STRYDOM Did any person give instructions at that stage? MR KHANYILE Yes, I don't remember his name. We were a big group but there was someone who was giving instructions. MR STRYDOM Do you remember what he said? MR KHANYILE As I said I was a bit far, I think I heard him saying that we should enter the township and try to look for the comrades. MR STRYDOM You made reference to a big group, what is your estimation, how big was that group? MR KHANYILE About 350 to 400. MR STRYDOM At that stage, in your own mind, what did you think, what were you going to do at Boipatong? MR KHANYILE There wasn't anything else except killing. MR STRYDOM Why did you think that? MR KHANYILE We were already told in the stadium and we were armed which were arms which were used for killing. MR STRYDOM Now I want you to testify further from the way you came along Moshweshwe Street. MR KHANYILE We proceeded along that street as I've explained. We have to cross a street which comes from Zwandela which proceeds towards the taxi rank near the shops ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON What is the name of the street that you came up to? MR KHANYILE The only street that I remember well is Moshweshwe. As you go down Moshweshwe there is a street which comes from Zwandela which crosses and proceeds towards the shops near the taxi rank. That is where we crossed the street, on our way along Moshweshwe. We found a lot of comrades around a big fire ...[intervention] MR STRYDOM Just before you carry on, I want to refer you to Exhibit J which is a plan of Boipatong, if you can just indicate to the Committee the street where you will find the shop. MR KHANYILE I think this is the point where we ...[inaudible] can see Moshweshwe Street going down and the street as I'm pointing, that is the one that crosses Moshweshwe towards the shops near the taxi rank. MR STRYDOM Maybe just for record purposes, I want to place on record that according to my map it seems to be Lekwa Street, higher up beyond the shops, it's names Lekwa Street. Lower down it seems to be, ja, also Lekwa Street. You were testifying about comrades close to a fire, can you just take it from there? MR KHANYILE Yes. As we came closer to them they started shooting towards us and we also shot back. MR STRYDOM Do you know who fired in your group? MR KHANYILE Only one person by the name of Damarra, even if it was clear that he wasn't one that was shooting. MR STRYDOM At that stage were all the people still together in one group or not? MR KHANYILE Yes, that's correct. MR STRYDOM Was the situation right through the attack or not? MR KHANYILE We ...[inaudible] different way dispersed after the shooting. MR STRYDOM I want you now to testify about what you did and where you went in the township. MR STRYDOM After the shooting it was clear that the comrades were running away. Some retreated towards Slovo Park, some ran up towards the shops. That is where we divided into two groups which were not under command. We just ran to two different places. I was with the group which proceeded towards the shop. As the comrades were retreating, jumping fences into the yards, we also dispersed and went in different ways. Some people went into the houses, some people were running along the streets. That is where we started hitting houses, throwing stones at houses. As others were getting into the houses, others were shooting those who were running away, others were following those who were running away with spears. MR STRYDOM During all this did you see Mr Damarra Chonco again? MR KHANYILE I would say I was close to him. MR STRYDOM Did you go into any houses? MR KHANYILE No, I didn't get into any houses. MR STRYDOM What did you do? MR KHANYILE All that I did, I threw stones at the houses. I also met someone who was running away, I stabbed him with a spear. MR STRYDOM Do you remember which part of this persons body you stabbed? MR KHANYILE As he was running I stabbed him from the back. MR STRYDOM Was it a male person or a female? MR KHANYILE It was a male person. MR STRYDOM After you stabbed him, did he fall to the ground or what happened to him? MR KHANYILE I stabbed him, he fell to the ground. As he wasn't alone, there were many people running away, I ran after the others. I think those who were coming from behind me stabbed him too and finished him. MR SIBANYONI Are you able to indicate where you met this person who was running away and you stabbed, in relation to the street or the shops? MR KHANYILE I would say when we started shooting in that fashion I couldn't specifically say as to where these things happened because it was a confused situation and further I don't know Boipatong very well but when I try to recall I think we had already passed the shops. MR SIBANYONI But you were still on Lekwa Street? MR KHANYILE I don't remember the name of the street where I stabbed him. MR STRYDOM Did you stab this man shortly after you entered Boipatong or towards the time that you were ready to leave Boipatong? MR KHANYILE It was the time when we were running after those who were retreating, running away. After we have just started shooting and then they ran away. MR STRYDOM Now apart from this person did you injure any other person in Boipatong, injure or kill? MR KHANYILE All the others that I tried to follow, they managed to run away from me. I just continued breaking windows of houses until we had to go back where we came from. MR STRYDOM Do you remember from which street you left Boipatong? MR KHANYILE We used a street which is situated where there is a fence but I don't know the name of the street. MR STRYDOM That street, was it close to where you entered or was it the other side of Boipatong? MR KHANYILE It was not that far from where we entered. I would say ...[intervention] INTERPRETER Excuse me, he said it was far from where we entered the place. MR LAX Sorry, Mr Interpreter, I can't hear you very clearly. INTERPRETER He said it was far, I made a mistake saying it was near. MR STRYDOM If I show you ...[inaudible] INTERPRETER The speaker's microphone is not on. MR STRYDOM If I show you Exhibit J, can you indicate where you left Boipatong? MR KHANYILE It is so difficult for me to follow the map but I will just give directions here. As we entered, on our right-hand side we went down, down that street. When we were coming out of the place ...[no further translation] MR STRYDOM You were stating: "Coming out of the place", can you take it from there please? MR KHANYILE We went out on the side where Boipatong is ...[indistinct] to a fence ...[indistinct] MR LAX Sorry, please just repeat Mr Interpreter, that thing about the fence. I couldn't hear you as it was indistinct. INTERPRETER He said they went out at the place where Boipatong is adjacent to firms. MR STRYDOM Can you give a name of one of those firms or two maybe? MR KHANYILE I would say Cape Meat as they follow each other. MR STRYDOM Do you know the location of the informal settlement called Slovo Park? MR KHANYILE Yes, I know the place. MR STRYDOM During the course of the attack did you go into Slovo Park or not? MR KHANYILE I and my group we didn't reach Slovo Park. MR STRYDOM Did you see any of the attackers going in that direction? MR KHANYILE I would think the other group which went downwards might have reached Slovo Park. MR STRYDOM What was the general condition with regard to lights in that area? MR KHANYILE Regarding light of Boipatong you said? MR STRYDOM Yes, that's correct. MR KHANYILE There was light but it wasn't that good. MR STRYDOM What kind of lights were there? MR KHANYILE There were those, they're Apollo lights. MR STRYDOM How long would you estimate did you spend in Boipatong itself? MR KHANYILE I think it was about one hour and thirty minutes. MR STRYDOM How long would you say it would take, or did it take for the group to get from kwaMadala Hostel to the stage where the group entered Boipatong? MR KHANYILE It will be from 15 to 20 minutes. MR STRYDOM And did it take the same time to get from Boipatong to kwaMadala Hostel? MR KHANYILE Yes, it might have. MR STRYDOM During the attack did you see Defence Force or Police vehicles in Boipatong? MR KHANYILE No. MR STRYDOM Did you at any stage, from the time you left kwaMadala Hostel till the time you returned to kwaMadala Hostel, see any police vehicles? MR KHANYILE When we were leaving Boipatong, on that bridge, small bridge which is a pedestrian bridge, there were soldiers cars. I would say there were two or three. They were standing there. As we were coming closer and we were hurrying or in a hurry, they retreated towards, and stopped at a trade garage near the robots. MR STRYDOM After the group crossed Frikkie Meyer Boulevard on their way back, did you follow the same route when you went there? MR KHANYILE That's correct. MR STRYDOM Now whilst you were on that tarred section from the bridge you referred earlier on, towards the main entrance of kwaMadala Hostel, did you see any military vehicles or police vehicles? MR KHANYILE I didn't see police on that day, I only saw the soldiers vehicles which I've just mentioned. MR STRYDOM I just want to get clarity, did you see soldiers' vehicles on your way back from the bridge to the main gate? MR KHANYILE That's correct. MR STRYDOM When you got back into the hostel, what happened? MR KHANYILE We went back into the hostel and then we went to the stadium again. That is where we were told that we should disperse into our houses before the police could come. MR STRYDOM What did you do? MR KHANYILE We dispersed and I myself, as my house or my room was near the gate, I met Mr Mthembu. I would say about five minutes after we arrived in the hostel the soldiers' vehicles which we saw at the robots arrived at the place. If I remember well they did ask Mr Mthembu as to whether all the inmates of the hostel are inside the hostel. I think Mr Mthembu said: "Yes, they are all in". They asked that because they said they saw a group of people which crossed the road and they thought maybe they were hiding on the grass behind the hostel. They said we must be watchful because they will try and search for those people whom they thought hid behind the hostel. They said they will get something that will give them enough light to see all the place. After that I went back to my room and slept. CHAIRPERSON Who is this Mthembu you're referring to? MR KHANYILE Mr Moses Mthembu. MR SIBANYONI Who said you should disperse before the police have arrived, when you were at the stadium? MR KHANYILE I think it is Mr Mkhize. MR STRYDOM At that stage, were you working at some firm? MR KHANYILE Yes, I was a worker. MR STRYDOM Did you go to your work the next day? MR KHANYILE Yes, I went to work. MR STRYDOM After the attack, did you see that goods that were taken in Boipatong were burnt inside kwaMadala Hostel? MR KHANYILE All I can say about ...[indistinct] is that as we were coming back to the hostel people were carrying goods like TV's but when those goods were burnt or when the instruction was given that they should be burnt I wasn't present. MR STRYDOM We were handed an affidavit this morning, an unsigned document which purports to be an affidavit of Andries Nosenga ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Mr Strydom, just before you get to that affidavit. Did anyone tell you that you must now leave Boipatong and return to the hostel? MR KHANYILE At the time when the group was busy, the other group which went towards Slovo Park, which I thought it might have reached Slovo Park, we saw it coming towards us and we joined them and went back. CHAIRPERSON This group that had been to Slovo Park, how did you know that they were now leaving Boipatong? MR KHANYILE When they were turning and coming back they were coming along the same street we were in, so as they were coming up we came and met them and then we agreed that we should go. CHAIRPERSON Are we to understand you as saying that you entered Boipatong from the one side and then you went through the houses stoning them, stabbing one man, chasing the others until you reached the other side of the township? MR KHANYILE That's correct. CHAIRPERSON You may return to the affidavit. MR STRYDOM I just want to return to what happened inside Boipatong. You said that you stabbed one person, you saw that other people also stabbed this person. Apart from that incident where there was a specific attack on a person, did you see other attacks on persons? MR KHANYILE Yes, the attack continued. Even if I wouldn't say I did see people doing anything because others went into the houses. All that I saw was what was happening outside where we were running, following these other people who were retreating, where we were breaking the windows and there were some sound of rifles. MR STRYDOM You said there were sounds of rifles, did you hear many shots or just a few? MR KHANYILE I would say rifles or guns were being fired. MR STRYDOM Did you see a person die in Boipatong? MR KHANYILE Referring to the one I stabbed, I wouldn't say I saw him dying, I would say that the others stabbed him as I was running after those who were running away, he might have died. MR STRYDOM But apart from this specific person, did you see any other person who was shot and died or who was stabbed and died in Boipatong? MR KHANYILE One person that I think I've see who was stabbed was the one who was stabbed by Victor Mthembu. MR STRYDOM Do you know in relation to the township and the streets, where this took place? If you can't name a street's name, did it happen early on during the attack or later? MR KHANYILE When I look back I would say it's about a short period of time, seven to ten minutes after the attack, while we were running after the people that were retreating. MR STRYDOM Apart from the applicants before this Committee, do you remember the names of any other people in that group that were with you when the attack took place? MR KHANYILE I would like to explain. Even those who are in the hall, the only people I saw are two among them. That they were present I heard from them. The persons I saw was Victor Mthembu and also Nanamshlopeki Shabango. Those who are not present here, there was one known by the name of Gobi. CHAIRPERSON What was the name of the person that you've just mentioned? MR KHANYILE I knew him as Gobi. Another one was Ephraim Makasana, and another one who was know to me by the name of Jumbluti, and the other one was known as Mfana Futi, and another one by the name of Holi, another was Tzwee. CHAIRPERSON Would this be the same person who was a member of the Youth Committee? MR KHANYILE That's correct. Another one was Mexlendo Damiheza, and another one known as Mxena. The others I just know them facially but I don't know their names because in kwaMadala people will be flocking the hostel, each and everybody running away from the township. As a person who was working most of the time I didn't know most of the people in the hostel, I just knew them facially but I didn't know their names. Those are all that I can still remember. MR STRYDOM Do you remember - Chairperson, will this be a convenient stage to take the adjournment? CHAIRPERSON Are you still going to be long? MR STRYDOM No, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Well let's finish then. MR STRYDOM Yes. At that time, did you know a person by the name of Andries Nosenga? MR KHANYILE I don't know the Maseka that I know. I know someone by the name of ...[intervention] MR STRYDOM Matanzima, is that what you're saying? MR KHANYILE Yes, Matanzima Masenga. If you are referring to that one, that is the only one that I know. MR STRYDOM Now the person you are referring to now, did you see him on the night of the attack? MR KHANYILE No, I didn't see him, however he is a person I happen to know as Matanzima. I know him or knew him because when he arrived at the hostel he was someone who was sent to do some reconnaissance as to how bombs could be planted inside the hostel. I've heard some rumours after he was arrested. CHAIRPERSON Where was he supposed to plant these bombs? MR KHANYILE The ANC people had a problem with entering and attacking kwaMadala Hostel therefore they had to use him as a person who was going infiltrate Inkatha and join as a member while he was to be used to plant the bombs. MR STRYDOM Where did you hear that? MR KHANYILE I heard it from, we were in a meeting which occurred at kwaMadala Hostel. MR STRYDOM This meeting you're referring to, did it take place before or after the attack on Boipatong? MR KHANYILE Even if I don't remember well, it was before the attack. MR STRYDOM During that time, did you know a person by the name Victor Kezuas, he's also got a nickname: "Katsisi"? MR KHANYILE Yes, I was ...[indistinct] close to him. MR STRYDOM That night of the attack on Boipatong, was he present? MR KHANYILE As a person who was always arrested now and then, I would say he was in jail at that time. MR STRYDOM On the night of the attack, did you see any vehicle - if I can rephrase, so-called Hippo vehicle picking up people and taking them into Boipatong? MR KHANYILE That never happened. MR STRYDOM Do you know a person by the name of Themba Mabote? MR KHANYILE Yes, very well. MR STRYDOM They night of the attack did you see him? MR KHANYILE Yes, he was present. MR STRYDOM Did he partake in the attack? MR KHANYILE Yes. MR STRYDOM Do you know how he got to Boipatong? MR KHANYILE He was in the group, one of the group. MR STRYDOM Did he have a firearm in his possession at that stage? MR KHANYILE It looks like he had a 9mm gun. MR STRYDOM Do you know a person by the name of Celo Hunter Mzozo? MR KHANYILE I don't know whether you are referring to Hunter Celo Ndlovu or was someone else? MR STRYDOM No, I said that, maybe not in that sequence but that's the person I'm referring to. Do you know him? MR KHANYILE Yes, I know him. MR STRYDOM Did you see him on the night of the 17th of June partaking in the attack? MR KHANYILE I didn't see him. MR STRYDOM Now I want to return to what happened after the attack. Did you see Mr Themba Xhosa at the hostel after the attack? MR KHANYILE He came a few days after the attack. CHAIRPERSON Was the question not directed at whether Themba Xhosa was present at the hostel on the night of the attack? Was that your question? MR STRYDOM No, Chairperson, I made reference to what happened after the attack. CHAIRPERSON Okay. MR STRYDOM Ja. END OF TAPE - POSSIBLE WORD LOSS MR KHANYILE Even if I won't know the exact reason for visiting the place, what I can remember is that we had a problem because we couldn't, we were not able to go to the shops because the whole kwaMadala Hostel was surrounded by police, therefore life wasn't good in the hostel. He was the one who could go and talk to the police when we want to talk to them or when they want to talk to us. CHAIRPERSON Were the police preventing the residents of kwaMadala Hostel from going to the shops? MR KHANYILE I don't understand when you say: "protecting them" or "stopping them from going to the shops"? CHAIRPERSON It means: "preventing them". MR KHANYILE From Tuesday, Thursday the 18th of June, anyone who was a resident at kwaMadala Hostel wasn't allowed to go out of the hostel until the following Monday. CHAIRPERSON And who was preventing the people from going out? MR KHANYILE The kids? MR LAX Sorry, did you say: "the kids"? MR KHANYILE Will you please repeat the question? CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] the 18th of June, no residents of kwaMadala Hostel were allowed out of the hostel. What I want to know is, who was preventing the residents from leaving the hostel? MR KHANYILE The police. MR STRYDOM Thinking back at this stage, what are your feelings about the attack that took place on the 17th of June 1992? MR KHANYILE All I can say is that the time when there was an attack at Boipatong, I wouldn't say that time I was happy about it because I convinced myself that the time has come for me to pay revenge but after a few days, I would say two days, after hearing that children and women were killed I felt very sorry and disappointed. MR STRYDOM Do you still have those feelings? MR KHANYILE No, Mr Strydom, I no longer feel the same. All I can say is that after the incident I was committed to peace because I would say that there are so many things that I have done from that time up to today which we efforts to reconcile the ANC and the IFP, especially in the hostels. I would say I would even have witnesses who are not members of my organisation and who might come direct from the ANC, who can give evidence on these efforts of trying to reconcile people towards a peaceful situation because after coming out from prison I was elected as a leader within the IFP. I used that position to bring about peace. To add, I don't think there is anyone who knew that IFP members who entered the Sebokeng Hostel and that they could enter Kwamasiza Hostel and that people who were resident at Sebokeng can enter kwaMadala Hostel, but because of my commitment together with my brothers working together, that had happened. MR STRYDOM Is there anything else you want to add to your application at this stage? MR KHANYILE I would like to ask permission to say this, especially to the relatives, the family victims. I would say we, the African people, we were unlucky because when we received politics we were taught that anyone who doesn't agree with you is an enemy and must be killed. I would say that I would like to ask for forgiveness for all that I've done. I didn't do these things intentionally. I would say what was difficult at the time was that there was lawlessness in the country, the government in charge was not in the position to protect the people of this country and therefore each and every person took the law into his or her own hands. I'm saying this because many IFP followers were killed at Vaal during the day, many IFP families were burnt during daylight. We reported that daily and during the night to the police, however even up to today not even a single person was charged for such crimes. Thank you. MR STRYDOM Chairperson, that is my evidence in chief. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STRYDOM CHAIRPERSON We will take the lunch adjournment now and we will return at a quarter past two. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION CHAIRPERSON Mr Khanyile, may I remember you are still under oath to speak the truth. VINCENT KUSAHUSA KHANYILE (s.u.o.) CHAIRPERSON Mr Strydom, have you concluded your examination in chief? MR STRYDOM Yes, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Berger, have you decided who is going to start? MR BERGER I'm going to start Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON I understand that Miss Cambanis would want to be excused at 3 o'clock. MS CAMBANIS Yes, Chair, that is correct. CHAIRPERSON Would you want to put questions now before you leave? MS CAMBANIS No, thank you Chair. NO QUESTIONS BY MS CAMBANIS CHAIRPERSON Yes, Mr Berger? MR BERGER Thank you Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] before you proceed, so that we can think about this. A reference was made to the contents of the unsworn statement and to that extent I don't think there will be any problem in cross-examination on the statement. My understanding is that because it has already been referred to, although not directly but indirectly, there would not be any issue as to its being used for the purposes of cross-examination. Mr Strydom? MR STRYDOM Chairperson, I won't object if that statement is put to this witness for his comments. CHAIRPERSON Mr Prior? MR PRIOR Yes, I don't think there's any difficulty in that Mr Chairman. Insofar as it may form part of an amnesty application. It's been referred to and that confidentiality can be waived by the Committee in the interests of pursuing the full facts that can be put to the witness, so there is no prejudice. MR BERGER Thank you Chairperson. If I could just place on record that the documents which we received and which we made the Committee - no, no, I just wanted to say this, we don't have the full application for amnesty. It might well be, and for that we would rely on Mr Prior and his team, it might well be that the unsworn affidavit was annexed, it seems to have been annexed, to an application for amnesty. The application for amnesty ought to have been sworn to and so then this would have been an annexure to the application for amnesty, if I'm correct. I don't know, perhaps Mr Prior can just assist. MR PRIOR Mr Chairman, may I just briefly say, according to Mr van Rensburg in Cape Town who was the analyst preparing this matter, the application as we have it before us is incomplete, although the TRC had the completed version as it. The affidavit unsigned and unattested was received at some other stage but was not annexed to the initial application. CHAIRPERSON Okay, let's proceed. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BERGER Thank you Chairperson. Mr Khanyile, when did you first decide to apply for amnesty? MR KHANYILE I can't remember the exact time but I think it's a long time ago. MR BERGER You were convicted in 1994. MR KHANYILE Yes, that's correct. MR BERGER At the time of your conviction, had you decided to apply for amnesty? MR KHANYILE After I was convicted or before I was convicted, can you clarify? MR BERGER At the time when you were convicted, and let me be specific, you were sentenced on the 9th of June 1994. MR KHANYILE Yes, that's correct. MR BERGER At the time when you were sentenced, the 9th of June 1994, had you already decided to apply for amnesty? MR KHANYILE No, I hadn't yet decided because I didn't know anything about amnesty. MR BERGER As at the 9th of June 1994, do I understand you correctly, you were not even considering the question of amnesty? MR KHANYILE That's correct. MR BERGER When did you consider the question of amnesty for the first time? MR KHANYILE After we were convicted our lawyers explained to us about the amnesty. MR BERGER When was that? MR KHANYILE I would say, if my memory serves me well, it was in 1996 or 1995, I don't remember well. MR BERGER And when did you take a decision that you were going to apply for amnesty? MR KHANYILE Even if I don't remember well, but the lawyers did tell us that, specifically on the day we decided to go and apply for amnesty, they informed us that we have to go and apply for amnesty because the closing date is near. All I know is that it was just before the closing of the amnesty application. MR BERGER At that time where were you? MR KHANYILE I was at Khayelitsha Hostel, called Ethlatin. MR BERGER Which Province is that in? MR KHANYILE It's here at Sebokeng. MR BERGER Was that in 1995, 1996 or 1997? MR KHANYILE As I've explained before, between 1995 and 1996, I don't remember exactly what year it was. MR BERGER Why did it take you until the 29th of January 1998 before you signed your amnesty application? MR KHANYILE Firstly, I didn't know much about the amnesty. After I've agreed with my lawyers that I'm going to ask for amnesty, that's all I could do. MR BERGER Mr Khanyile, my question is simply this: if you informed your lawyers in 1995 or 1996 that you wish to apply for amnesty, why did it take you until January 1998 before you signed your application for amnesty? MR KHANYILE My answer was Mr Berger, at the time when I agreed with my lawyers that I'm going to apply for amnesty I left it in their hands to do what was supposed to be done because they know the procedure. MR BERGER Do I understand you correctly, that you cannot explain the delay? MR KHANYILE Sir, if there has been a delay I think it is with the lawyers, it is not me, I didn't know anything about it. MR BERGER Is it correct that you were always available from 1995 until 1998 to sign an application for amnesty? MR KHANYILE That's correct. MR BERGER Mr Khanyile, would please have a look at page 93 of the bundle in front of you? If you look from page 93 through to 95, that is your application, who filled it out? MR KHANYILE The questions and the answers in this application, I would say I gave the answers, the signature on the papers is mine. MR BERGER So the words used on page 93, 94 and 95 in answer to the various questions, those are your words? MR KHANYILE If they're written the way I've stated them, yes, that's true. MR BERGER Well have they been read to you at any time and translated to you? MR KHANYILE That's correct. MR BERGER And the words that are contained in that document are words that you agree with? MR KHANYILE If the Interpreter who explained to me that this is what was written on the paper, yes, I agree with that. MR BERGER Then page 96 and 97, are those also your words? MR KHANYILE Yes. MR BERGER You're lawyers asked you certain questions, in particular question 9 and question 10 and these are the answers that you gave, is that correct? MR KHANYILE Yes, that's correct. MR BERGER Is it correct also that the answers from page 100 to page 102 are your answers, those are your words? MR KHANYILE Yes, as I've already explained to you Sir, that if the Interpreter who was interpreting for me was what is written on the paper, I would say all that is written in this application are my words. MR BERGER Now at page 96, in answer to question 9(a)(1) you said "The attack on Boipatong on the 17th of June 1992 when 46 people were killed, public violence was committed and at least 17 people were injured" ... are the acts for which you seek amnesty. You went on to say: "For further information, attached hereto is the following" The first thing you attached was the charge sheet and the second thing you attached was the Judgment of the Trial Judge on the merits of the criminal case. You attached two other documents but they are not relevant for present purposes. Do I understand what you have done correctly, that you have attached the Judgment of the Judge as further information of what you did on that night in Boipatong? MR KHANYILE I will try to explain with regard to the criminal case because you've mentioned the Judgment. What I said in Pretoria was said in the purpose of defending myself to be acquitted, and what I am saying here today is the truth. MR BERGER I understand from you that you lied in Pretoria, correct? MR KHANYILE That's correct. MR BERGER Would I also be correct to say that the evidence which the State led against you in Pretoria, which you denied then but you now admit, as being correct? MR KHANYILE All I can say is that the evidence I gave in Pretoria, the only thing that is true is that I was involved but any other evidence given by me was false. MR BERGER Mr Khanyile, perhaps you've misunderstood me. In Pretoria - let's take it step by step, in Pretoria you told the court that you were not involved but the State witnesses told the court that you were involved. You know admit, am I correct, that the State witnesses were correct and you were telling lies? MR KHANYILE I don't know whether the Interpreter is giving the right interpretation, but what I'm saying is that whatever was said, any evidence that was given concerning me, the only thing that is true is that I was there when the attack took place. However, whatever evidence I gave, that I did that and that, was not true. The truth is what I'm saying today. MR BERGER Mr Khanyile ...[intervention] MR LAX Just one second Mr Berger. Mr Khanyile, maybe you're not understanding Mr Berger properly - carry on Mr Berger. MR BERGER Mr Khanyile, when you gave evidence in Pretoria you told the Judge that you were not involved in the attack, that was a lie, correct? MR KHANYILE That's correct. MR BERGER The State witnesses in Pretoria told the court that you were involved in the attack, that was the truth, correct? MR KHANYILE That's correct. MR BERGER Am I correct then to assume that you now accept what the State witnesses told the court in Pretoria against you, you now accept that that is the truth? MR KHANYILE Mr Berger, I will try to explain in this way. Many things have been said by the State witnesses against me, some of which was not true. I'm saying the only thing that I think they were telling the truth about is that I was involved in the attack at Boipatong. MR BERGER When the State witnesses said that in Pretoria, you said that they were liars, am I correct? MR KHANYILE That's correct, I said that. MR BERGER Now you say they were telling the truth in that respect but they were not telling the truth in respect of other things which you did during the attack, is that right? MR KHANYILE Yes, that's correct. MR BERGER What in particular do you dispute? MR KHANYILE They said a lot of things about me. All that the State witnesses were saying, they were just pointing at anybody whom they knew. To give an example, Mr Qambelani Buthelezi was sentenced to 18 years but he doesn't even know exactly what was happening at Boipatong. However, State witnesses said he was involved and he did get himself involved in the attack. As a person who was staying with me in the same house, and a person whom I left while he was sick in bed, and when I came back from Boipatong I found him in the house sleeping. I'm trying to say Mr Berger, that the State witnesses said a lot of things which were not true. MR BERGER Mr Khanyile, I didn't ask ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Sorry, perhaps to shorten this, would you please indicate to us what it is that the State witnesses said often concerning you and which was not the truth? Did you understand the question? MR KHANYILE I have a problem, I think the Interpreter has given me the impression that it was directed to the lawyer, can you please repeat it for me? CHAIRPERSON You have told us that, repeatedly I think you have, that the State witnesses lied in certain respects, that is in regard to what you were alleged to have done at Boipatong. Would you just give us an indication of those respects in which you say the State witnesses lied? MR KHANYILE Okay. CHAIRPERSON Did you understand the question? MR KHANYILE Yes. Firstly, if I remember well there were about three or four State witnesses and all of them said different things, contradicting evidence about me. One of them said I was holding a spear, which is true. The other one said I was holding an AK47, which is not true. I don't remember, the other one seemed to have said I was holding a gun and of which it was not true. If I remember well one of the witnesses said I personally, when we met with the police, as he was speaking in Afrikaans I don't remember what he said about talking to the white people or the police. MR BERGER You see Mr Khanyile, what I don't understand is this, when you answered a question in the form about the things you did in Boipatong, you said "For further information I annexe a copy of the Judgment" Now at page 304 of the second bundle, which is page 3752 of the Judgment, the Judge in dealing with you - you were accused number 58, am I correct? MR KHANYILE Yes, that's correct. MR BERGER The Judge first of all spoke about the evidence of Bojozi who, as you correctly said, first of all said that you were armed with an assegai and a kierrie but then later conceded that he couldn't remember how you were armed. Then the Judge goes on to deal with the evidence of Mr Moloi who said that you picked up an AK47 in the stadium and the Judge appears to accept that evidence. What I want to know is why you annexed this as providing further details about y our participation if you don't accept that it's the truth? MR KHANYILE Sir, I will say it was by mistake that it was included. I wasn't aware that that was written, what you are saying was written there. MR BERGER The Judge further went on to recount the evidence of Mr Moloi, again which the Judge apparently accepted. Mr Moloi said that you came to call people in their rooms, telling them to go to the stadium that night. You told people to put white lappies around their heads and you handed out the Ntelezi, is that also wrong? MR KHANYILE I would say a lot of those things are not true, I mean evidence that was accepted by the Judge. As I've already given an example of Mr Buthelezi who was sentenced to 18 years and who was said to be present during the attack, fortunately he wasn't there and I would say the Judge made a lot of mistakes. MR BERGER Did you call people from their rooms telling them to go to the stadium? MR KHANYILE I don't know under what rank or position I had the power to go around and call people ...[intervention] MR LAX Just hold it. Mr Interpreter, we can't hear you, maybe you forgot to press the button. Please just repeat that answer. MR KHANYILE I'm trying to explain to Mr Berger that people won't understand why a person like me should go out and call them to come out because I didn't have any rank or position or mandate to call them out. All that I know is that at the kwaMadala Hostel we normally called through an announcement on a speaker. CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] so that we can make ...[inaudible] would you please answer yes or no? Do you understand that? MR KHANYILE Yes, I understand. CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] for you to elaborate, I'm sure that your counsel will take that opportunity in re-examination, to request you to explain. MR KHANYILE Yes, I understand. CHAIRPERSON So you can help this Committee by confining yourself to the answer. Can we take it that your answer now is that: no, you did not call the people to the stadium? MR KHANYILE Yes, that's correct, I didn't call people. MR BERGER Who did call people over the loudspeaker to the stadium? MR KHANYILE I didn't see the person speaking, I just heard the sound. MR BERGER You didn't recognise the person's voice, you didn't know whose voice it was? MR KHANYILE I would like to explain Mr Berger. This is not a speaker, I would say in Zulu it's a trumpet which you blow and we as inmates at kwaMadala Hostel, when we hear such a trumpet it means that we all should go to the stadium. MR BERGER Is it also correct that you never told people to tie white lappies around their heads? MR KHANYILE I didn't. MR BERGER And is it also correct that you never handed out the Ntelezi? MR KHANYILE Yes, I never gave the Ntelezi. MR BERGER And is it also correct that you never gave any specific instructions to Mr Moloi about what should happen if the police should stop you? MR KHANYILE That's correct. MR BERGER So therefore there is nothing in the Judgment on the merits which provides further information about what you did in Boipatong on the night of the massacre, is that correct? MR KHANYILE The only help is that I was involved, it says I was involved, I was there. MR BERGER Mr Khanyile, what I want to put to you is, and this is in the light of your answer previously that the annexures which are referred to on page 96 ought not to have been referred to, you said it was a mistake. What I want to put to you is that page 96 and 97 are not your words, that in fact they were composed by someone else. MR KHANYILE What appears here is what I told them. MR BERGER And another reason why I want to suggest to you that these are not your words is because these very same words are annexed to each and every application for amnesty, other than Mr Mthembu's, Mr Victor Mthembu's. Everyone else has got exactly the same words. Surely you didn't all say exactly the same thing? MR KHANYILE I will see, I don't know what is written in my brother's applications. It is probable that we would say the same things because when we were doing all this we were together. MR BERGER When was that when you were all together? MR KHANYILE I'm referring to the incident of the attack. MS CAMBANIS Sorry, Honourable Chairperson, may I be excused at this time please? CHAIRPERSON Yes, Ma'am, thanks. MS CAMBANIS EXCUSED MR BERGER When you gave instructions to your lawyers, the answers to the questions for amnesty, were you on your own or were you together with your other co-applicants? MR KHANYILE I was with the other applicants. MR BERGER And where was this done, where you gave your answers? MR KHANYILE It was at Khayelitsha Hostel. MR BERGER And all the applicants who are presently in jail, they were present with you at Khayelitsha Hostel when you gave these answers? MR KHANYILE If I remember well not all of us were there. I don't know who was there and who was not there exactly. MR BERGER You see Mr Khanyile, I'm going to move off now from this point but what I want to put to you is that each and every application of those who were in jail and of those who are out on bail is identical and what I want to suggest to you is that these are not your words, that they were drafted by someone else. You can comment if you want. MR KHANYILE That will not be true. MR BERGER The people who you named as being involved in the attack, you named Mr Victor Mthembu, how was he armed? MR KHANYILE He was armed with a spear. If I remember well I saw the spear for the first time when he stabbed someone. MR BERGER So the State witness who said that Mr Victor Mthembu was armed with a 9mm pistol would be incorrect? MR KHANYILE That's not true. MR BERGER And again that is another mistake by the Judge in his Judgment? MR KHANYILE That's correct. MR BERGER Did you see Mr Thomas Lukhozi? MR KHANYILE I know Thomas Lukhozi, not Thomas Khosi. MR LAX Sorry, Mr Berger said Lukhozi. MR KHANYILE I think I do have a problem with the Interpreter, sometimes I don't get the full interpretation or I don't understand. CHAIRPERSON With the interpretation would you please let us know because it is very essential that the questions are accurately conveyed to you, and what is conveyed from you to us is a reflection of what you've said. Do you understand that? MR KHANYILE Yes, I understand you. I can say that sometimes as I speak I'm speaking the true Zulu, I don't know exactly the kind of Zulu that she is using, it's a Zulu that is used commonly within this area. I am used to the KwaZulu Natal Zulu. CHAIRPERSON We do understand that there may well be those differences but we want to emphasise is that if you don't understand what the interpreter is saying please let us know. MR KHANYILE Yes, I understand. What the problem is, is when the answer is given to you I wouldn't be able to know whether that is a true reflection of what I've said. CHAIRPERSON You can rest assured that we do understand what you are saying. MR BERGER Mr Khanyile, did you see Mr Thomas Lukhozi on the night of the attack? MR KHANYILE I didn't see him. MR BERGER Isn't it so that Mr Lukhozi was one of the leaders of the attackers? MR KHANYILE My personal knowledge is that there were two leaders. Sorry I couldn't get the names. MR BERGER Who were the two leaders? MR KHANYILE It was Bhekinkosi Mkhize and Busiso Damarra Chonco. MR BERGER Do you know that Mr Bojozi and Mr Lukhozi were good friends? MR KHANYILE I don't know. MR BERGER When was the first time that you saw Mr Victor Mthembu that night? MR KHANYILE I saw Victor Mthembu when we were right inside Boipatong. MR BERGER Were you in a group with Mr Victor Mthembu? MR KHANYILE Yes, that's correct. MR BERGER And who else was in this group? MR KHANYILE Those whom I can remember is Mr Mthembu, Mr Shabango, Ghobi, Holi, Tzwee and Mfana Futi, Mehlondo Damiheza, Ephraim Makasana and another one known by the name of Gina and Themba Mabote and Damarra Chonco. Those are the only people I can still remember. They were people who were with me at Boipatong. CHAIRPERSON Were these individuals that you've just mentioned in the same group in which you and Mr Mthembu were? MR KHANYILE That's correct. MR BERGER And as I understand your evidence Mr Khanyile, it was quite a large group that you and Mr Mthembu were in, correct? MR KHANYILE That's correct. MR BERGER Can you tell the Committee where Gobi is today? MR KHANYILE I now have a problem with the interpretation. You are saying Gobi and I said Ghobi. MR BERGER Well, I'll ask you again then, do you know where Ghobi is today? MR KHANYILE I would say I normally meet him in town but I don't know exactly where he stays. MR BERGER How was he armed? MR KHANYILE I don't remember. It looked like he was holding a knopkierrie. MR BERGER Did you see him attacking anyone? MR KHANYILE I remember regrading the person who was stabbed by Victor Mthembu, he was part of the group which was hitting and stabbing at that man. MR BERGER Besides that, did you see him attacking anyone else? MR KHANYILE No. MR BERGER Let me try and short-circuit this. Of all the other people who you named, Makasana, Jambluti, Mfana Futi, Holi or Gholi, Tzwee, Miheza, Gina, Mabote and Damarra Chonco, are any of them still alive? MR KHANYILE I would say personally only two of them passed away, it's Chonco and Themba Mabote. MR BERGER Of all the others, do you know where they are presently? MR KHANYILE I would like to explain a bit. At the time I was arrested after the attack, I stayed about six months in prison without bail. I got bail during December and when I came back I found that kwaMadala Hostel had been pulled down or demolished, most of the people were no longer staying there. Only the people who were working at the ISCOR firm were around. Unfortunately some of them I last saw before I got arrested. It just happened that I do meet them sometimes, for example I mentioned that I met Ghobi and another one whom I've mentioned before Jambluti. Those are the only people that I met. Others since they were not working, I think they might have gone back to their homes in KwaZulu Natal. Those who were staying in the township might have gone back to their respective homes in the townships. I don't know exactly where they are staying in the townships. MR BERGER Mr Khanyile, the short answer to my question is you don't know where any of those people are today, am I correct? MR KHANYILE That's correct. MR BERGER And a short answer please, were any of them accused with you in the criminal trial? MR KHANYILE The person that I still remember is Jambluti. I heard he is staying at Zone 7. MR BERGER Mr Khanyile, my question to you was, were any of them co-accused with you in the criminal trial? MR KHANYILE It looks like I didn't understand. I would say that when we were arrested we were 64 and some were taken out and this Jambluti I'm talking about is one of the persons who was released. CHAIRPERSON Well apart from Jambluti, were there any of the individuals who were in your group who were co-accused with you? MR KHANYILE I don't really understand, do you mean those who were released or those who were convicted? CHAIRPERSON Tell us about the people who were convicted with you and the lawyer will continue to find out exactly what happened to them. MR KHANYILE Those whom I can still remember are the people who are here. One person with whom we were convicted, it was Matanda Mgubane, Swelimuti Msane and one known as Mskubu, another one known as Matlauvo, Hunter Celo Ndlovu. CHAIRPERSON Mr Berger, what you wanted to find out was, of the people in the group that he mentioned, right? MR BERGER The person I wanted to find out, in the group that he mentioned, correct, were any of them co-accused. CHAIRPERSON Mr Khanyile, listen to the question. MR KHANYILE Will you please repeat the question, I don't understand the question. INTERPRETER The speaker's mike is off. CHAIRPERSON You told us that you were in a particular group which consisted, amongst others, Tshabangu, Ghobi, Tzwee, Vanana Futi, Mhlendota Miheza, Jambluti and others, do you recall that? MR KHANYILE Yes. CHAIRPERSON What Mr Berger wants to find out is whether of these individuals who were in your group, were any of them arrested together with you or were any of them your co-accused. MR KHANYILE I understand. The only person whom I could say was present ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON We know about Jambluti, right. MR KHANYILE Themba Mabote was one of them, he passed away. He is the only person whom I can remember, without mentioning the two who are right in front of the Committee. CHAIRPERSON Mfana Futi? MR KHANYILE Mfana Futi was never arrested together with the others. All the others were not arrested. CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] MR KHANYILE Ephraim Makasani was arrested. I just forget he was one of the persons who were arrested. CHAIRPERSON Tshabangu? MR KHANYILE Yes, he's present here. CHAIRPERSON Ghobi? MR KHANYILE Ghobi was never arrested, he was a State witness. I would say they were arrested but they were released as State witnesses, Ghobi and Holi. CHAIRPERSON And Tzwee? MR KHANYILE Tzwee was never arrested. CHAIRPERSON Damarra Chonco? MR KHANYILE Wasn't arrested, Damarra was not arrested. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR BERGER Mr Khanyile, the people whom you mentioned who were convicted, I put it to you were not convicted. The only people who were convicted are the applicants presently before the Committee ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON But Mr Berger, I didn't understand Mr Khanyile to say they were convicted. I think he indicated that persons like Ghobi and Holi for example were arrested and then they turned State witnesses. MR BERGER I'm not referring to those people Chairperson. There was a whole group of people before that whom the witness said had been convicted but I can move on, it's not essential. CHAIRPERSON But which group are you referring to, are you not referring to this group that he has just mentioned? MR BERGER No, not that group. Mr Khanyile, there was a group of people whose names you mentioned, not the group that we've been dealing with, not the applicants but another group of people. CHAIRPERSON Please give us the names of the people in that group that you say he mentioned. MR BERGER Chairperson, the witness went too fast for me, I never got the names down so I can't assist. MR STRYDOM Chairperson, I can assist with the reference to the names that were mentioned. The are written here. The name Skubi, Masani, Matasani and Hunter Celo Ndlovu. I don't know if that's the group Mr Berger is referring to. I'm not sure if I got all the names but those I've written down. ADV SIGODI Yes, and the other one was Matanda Mgubani. That was one name also mentioned of that group. MR BERGER Thank you, yes. And the point I was making Mr Khanyile is those people were not convicted. MR KHANYILE Mr Berger, when I gave you these names I was answering your question where you asked me how many people were arrested with me. I even asked for clarification as to whether you're referring to people who were convicted or people who were arrested. MR BERGER Let me leave that group. The group of people that you say were part of your group, I'm now talking about Tshabangu, Ephraim Makasana and the others, did any of them have a gun which you saw then firing? MR KHANYILE People whom I saw holding the guns or rifles were two, it was Damarra and Themba Mabote. Even if there were people who were also armed with guns or arms ...[intervention] MR LAX There is no translation in English of any of this. INTERPRETER There might be a technical problem, you were on air. MR LAX Please repeat the answer Mr Interpreter, we can't hear a word. MR KHANYILE People whom I saw right in Boipatong who were armed with guns or firearms were two people, Mr Damarra Chonco and Themba Mabote. There might be others who were armed with guns or rifles but I didn't see them. MR BERGER You were asked about Mr Andries Nosenga and you said you know a Mr Matanzima Nosenga, is that correct? MR KHANYILE I said if it is someone who is called by the name of Matanzima, it's true I know him, it's just the surname that I don't know. MR BERGER When did you first meet him at kwaMadala? MR KHANYILE Even if I don't remember the exact time, what I can remember is we were called to the stadium and we're to be told about him. MR BERGER When was that? MR KHANYILE It was before the attack. Excuse me I want to rectify there. It was before the attack at Boipatong. MR BERGER Who addressed you at the stadium? MR KHANYILE Even if I'm not very sure in what I'm going to say, I would say Prince Vanana Zulu who was present on that day. MR BERGER Was this a meeting of all the residents in the hostel? MR KHANYILE Yes, that's correct. MR BERGER So if I understand you correctly, at some stage before the attack all the residents of the hostel were called together in the stadium, addressed by Vanana Zulu who said that this man Matanzima is a spy for the ANC? MR KHANYILE I've clearly explained that it was Mr Zulu who was conducting the meeting. He is the person who told us or explained to us about Mr Matanzima. CHAIRPERSON What were you told about Matanzima? MR KHANYILE We were told that it has been established that since Matanzima is inside the hostel, he has been sent to do a reconnaissance as to how bombs could be planted in the hostel. MR BERGER How long before the attack was this, a month, two months, a year? MR KHANYILE I would say approximately two months. MR BERGER And what happened to Matanzima after this meeting? MR KHANYILE Matanzima was taken. The decision was taken that he should be taken to a conference of the IFP to explain his involvement in the hostel. MR BERGER And was there such a conference of the IFP? MR KHANYILE Which conference are you referring to? CHAIRPERSON Well you've just told us that it was decided that Matanzima should be taken before the conference of the ANC to explain about his activities. MR KHANYILE That's correct. MR BERGER Just for the record Chairperson, you said ANC and I believe the witness said IFP. MR KHANYILE That's correct. MR BERGER Were you present when Mr Matanzima was called before the IFP to explain his actions? MR KHANYILE I last heard about it when they were talking about him at the stadium, whether he was taken to Ulundi or not I don't know, I didn't go there. MR BERGER Were you ever given a briefing or did anyone ever report back to you on the actions that had been taken by the IFP against Matanzima? MR KHANYILE I would say since Matanzima came back and said he had fully joined the IFP as a real member, it looked like they sat down with him and talked with him. I don't know what happened, I thought they brought him back. MR BERGER So ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Are you referring to the IFP? MR KHANYILE As I've explained before, the decision was taken by Matanzima himself when it was decided they would take him to the conference. I don't know but I've seen is that those people who went for the conference, they came back with him, so we were not called, briefed as to what was said about him or what happened to him. CHAIRPERSON I thought you mentioned that he had joined the organisation? MR KHANYILE Yes, I heard, it was rumoured around that he has officially joined the IFP but that was not explained in a meeting. CHAIRPERSON You were told or you overheard that he had now joined the IFP? MR KHANYILE I heard. MR BERGER Mr Khanyile, if I understand you correctly, after he was spoken to, or this is your understanding, after Matanzima was spoken to by the leadership of the IFP he was then accepted into the IFP as a full member, is that correct? MR KHANYILE What I don't know is whether he was accepted at the conference or at kwaMadala Hostel, can you clarify for me? MR BERGER Well after he had gone to explain his apparent actions or his alleged actions about spying or carrying out secret activities for the ANC, he explained that, as far as you understood to the IFP leadership and then he returned to kwaMadala and the talk amongst people at kwaMadala was that Matanzima is now in the IFP as a full member of the IFP, would that be correct? MR KHANYILE I can say that what was said at the conference, whether he was called to explain something or he explained something, I don't know. All that I heard is that they are going with him to the conference and thereafter, later I was told that he has officially become a member of the IFP, that's all I heard. MR BERGER And after he had officially become a member of the IFP, Matanzima then returned to kwaMadala Hostel, correct? MR KHANYILE Yes, it is true. MR BERGER So then at the time of the attack, I would be correct to say that Matanzima was an IFP member living in kwaMadala Hostel? MR KHANYILE Even if I can't confirm that to be the truth, I think it was like that. CHAIRPERSON Mr Berger, because we intend sitting until late, we intend taking a 15 minute break, so at an appropriate time would you indicate? MR BERGER Chairperson, could I just get an indication of how long after the tea break we're going to be sitting? CHAIRPERSON 5 o'clock. MR BERGER Chairperson, perhaps this would then be the appropriate point to take the adjournment. CHAIRPERSON We will take a 15 minutes bread and we will come back at 4 o'clock. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION VINCENT KUSAHUSA KHANYILE (s.u.o.) MR KHANYILE Thanks. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BERGER (cont) Thank you Chairperson. Mr Khanyile, if we are talking about the same person, Mr Matanzima and Mr Nosenga, I want to tell you what in general terms he says in this document. He says that the police were involved to the extent he says, that police Casspirs or he says a police Casspir was used to transport some of the attackers, including himself into Boipatong. Now do you say that that is a lie? MR KHANYILE Sir, I would say even God knows police were not involved. MR BERGER It's not only Mr Nosenga who says this but members of the community who were in Boipatong the night of the attack saw police Casspirs or armed vehicles in Boipatong at the time of the attack, is that also not true? MR KHANYILE I would try to explain in this way. During the hearing of our case, our criminal case, we were also going to rely on the fact that we had police, however the disappointment was that 80% of the people from Boipatong denied that they did see police taking part in the attack. All I can say is that at the time when all the statement or issues were discussed, it was just a political game. CHAIRPERSON So what is the answer to the question? MR KHANYILE The answer Mr Berger is what Matanzima said is lies. CHAIRPERSON What Mr Berger put to you was that Mr Matanzima is not the only person who is making the allegation that the police were involved, even the members of the community say that they saw police in Boipatong at the time of the attack, police vehicles inside Boipatong at the time of the attack, what do you say to that? MR KHANYILE My answer to that is that that is not true because I explained even before the Judge, residents of Boipatong denied that police were involved. Even the time when we got convicted it was denied that, it was not established that police were present. MR BERGER Did I understand you correctly Mr Khanyile, to say that during the criminal trial you were alleging, you meaning you and the accused, were alleging that there were police in Boipatong but the residents were saying that there were not, is that what you're saying? MR KHANYILE May you please repeat your question, I didn't understand. MR BERGER Did I misunderstand you or am I correct, that you said that at the time of the criminal trial you were claiming that there were police in Boipatong but the residents were saying that there were not? MR KHANYILE Let me try to explain, to clarify my answer. I said, during the trial even us were relying on that rumours that police were involved, however what surprised us is that during the time of evidence, when they were giving evidence and when people were asked whether they did see the police, it was discovered that they didn't see the police. Most people or witnesses said they saw the police after the attack. CHAIRPERSON Did anyone of the person who were accused ...[no English translation] tell the court that when they went into Boipatong the police were also present? MR KHANYILE No. MR SIBANYONI Mr Khanyile, was it maybe part of your instructions to your lawyers to put it to the court that it was the police that attacked at Boipatong? MR KHANYILE It looks like it's not clear. I never said police attacked the people at Boipatong, what I was trying to explain is that in answering Mr Berger's question when he said the community of Boipatong said that they saw police in Casspirs, when answering his question I said we as the accused at that time, we thought maybe that evidence might free us from the case because we were not supposed to be convicted if police were involved, not that I was saying we personally saw the police or that the police were there. I'm trying to say that the community said there were police. MR BERGER Not only do the community or certain people in the community say that there were police vehicles in Boipatong at the time of the attack, they go further to say that there were white men involved in the killing, involved in the attack, what do you say about that? MR KHANYILE That never happened. ADV SIGODI Mr Khanyile, can you really vouch for that or can you say you never saw it happen, you personally never saw it happen? MR KHANYILE I'm trying to explain that when we left kwaMadala Hostel we went into the Boipatong area and we got out of Boipatong, I never saw a white person. ADV SIGODI Yes, the point I'm trying to get across to you is that there is a difference when you say something never happened or when you say: "I never saw it happen". MR KHANYILE I would say I myself personally, I didn't see a white person on that day. MR BERGER Is it your evidence that all the attackers were people who had just before the attack gathered in the stadium of kwaMadala Hostel? MR KHANYILE That's correct. MR BERGER And when you were in the stadium, I take it you never saw any white men? MR KHANYILE Yes, I didn't. MR BERGER According to ISCOR, there were approximately 430, if my figures are correct, residents in kwaMadala Hostel at the time of the attack, would that be right? MR KHANYILE My perception is that it's about 900 to 1000 residents or was. If you are referring specifically to workers who work at ISCOR, it might be true. MR BERGER Certain people who gave statements on behalf of the Defence Force said that at one stage they saw a crowd which they estimated at totalling approximately 500 people. MR KHANYILE That is their estimation. I said there were about 350 to 400. MR BERGER According to ISCOR, some of their employees saw a crowd which they estimated to be in the number of about 800 people. MR KHANYILE I don't know anything about that. MR BERGER So my question to you really is this, are you being honest when you say that all the people who formed part of the attackers came from kwaMadala or is it not the position that the attackers from kwaMadala were supplemented by others, in particular members of the police and in particular white men? MR KHANYILE As I've already explained Mr Berger, what you are saying is not true, even the almighty himself knows that. MR BERGER Is it correct Mr Khanyile, that Mr Vanana Zulu is also known and was also known at the time as Ntwana? MR KHANYILE That's correct. MR BERGER And is it correct that he was the only person known as Ntwana in kwaMadala Hostel at that time? MR KHANYILE Even he's not, the only one referred to as Ntwana according to the King's tradition, when you're referring to Ntwana in the hostel probably you were referring to him. MR BERGER Who was Gateni? MR KHANYILE I don't know Gateni. MR BERGER Do you know anyone by the name of Gatcheni? MR KHANYILE Yes, one person whom I knew is called Gatcheni. MR BERGER And who was he? MR KHANYILE I only knew him as Gatcheni. MR BERGER Well could you tell the Committee what position Gatcheni held in kwaMadala at the time? MR KHANYILE He didn't hold any position. I think I've already mentioned those who held positions in that time. MR BERGER According to you Gatcheni was just another resident of kwaMadala Hostel? MR KHANYILE That's correct. MR BERGER Mr Nosenga says that the people - this in paragraph 6, the people who were in charge of the attack were Ntwana and he says here, Gateni but let's take it as Gatcheni. MR KHANYILE During the time of the attack, Ntwana was at home for two or one week. I don't know the whereabouts of Gatcheni at that time. MR BERGER You see Mr Khanyile, the difficulty I have with that answer is that Mr Victor Mthembu told the Committee the last time when he gave evidence, that he saw Mr Vanana Zulu Ntwana at the hostel on the 17th of June 1992. MR KHANYILE I wouldn't dwell much on Mr Mthembu's answers to the Committee, all that I know is what I'm saying can be confirmed by Mtwana himself and other residents of kwaMadala Hostel. MR BERGER Well you see you told the Committee now that Mr Zulu had been away from the hostel for a week before the attack, correct? MR KHANYILE Yes, I said it's about a week or two weeks, I'm not exactly sure as to whether it was a week or two weeks. MR BERGER Mr Zulu told the court when he gave evidence, that he was away from the hostel from the 5th of June until the 22nd of June. MR KHANYILE That might be the truth but I'm confirming what I'm saying, that he was not present. MR BERGER So are you then saying that Mr Victor Mthembu is not telling the truth when he said that he saw Mr Vanana Zulu catching a taxi away from the hostel on the, I think he said in the afternoon of the 17th of June 1992? MR KHANYILE I would say it's not true. MR BERGER Isn't it that both of you are incorrect? That in fact, well to one extent Mr Mthembu is correct that Mr Zulu was at the hostel on the 17th of June, he never went away and he was part of the attackers in Boipatong that night. MR KHANYILE What I'm saying is the truth that cannot be denied or contradicted. MR BERGER You told the Committee this morning, and I will quote you your words: that nothing happens or happened in kwaMadala Hostel without the knowledge of Mr Vanana Zulu. MR KHANYILE That's correct. MR BERGER Well when then was Mr Vanana Zulu informed that there was going to be an attack on Boipatong? MR KHANYILE I didn't say that even if he's away in KwaZulu Natal he has to be informed, I was referring to incidents when he's inside kwaMadala Hostel. MR BERGER You said: "There was nothing that would take place without consulting Mr Vanana Zulu, nothing", now I put it to you that it could not have happened that such an important decision as the decision to attack Boipatong could have taken without consulting Mr Vanana Zulu. MR KHANYILE That might be what you are thinking because what I said is when he is present all the reports are sent to him, I never explained that when he is not present he's normally given the message or consulted. MR BERGER You told the Committee about a meeting which was held three weeks before the attack on Boipatong, we're talking now about a meeting towards the end of May 1992, correct? MR KHANYILE You mean the first meeting? MR BERGER Yes. MR KHANYILE Even if I don't remember that it was on the exact date that you are mentioning, I would say that it was about three weeks before the attack. MR BERGER In other words it was at a time when, even on his own evidence, Vanana Zulu was in the hostel? MR KHANYILE I don't understand as to whom you are referring, the person who was giving evidence. MR BERGER Let's just go to the meeting which was held three weeks before the attack, Vanana Zulu was at that meeting, correct? MR KHANYILE ...[indistinct] was there. MR BERGER And at that meeting residents of kwaMadala complained to the leadership that they wanted to take action against the residents of Boipatong and the leadership said: "Leave it to us, we need to think about this"? MR KHANYILE What I can remember is, when the residents gave those complaints or raised the complaint to the leaders it was Mkhize who said: "You must leave it to the leaders since they've heard the issues". I'm not sure whether it was Damarra Mkhize but I should think it's Mkhize. MR BERGER Mr Victor Mthembu says that Mr Vanana Zulu and Mr Mkhize took a decision to attack the Vaal community, do you agree with that? MR KHANYILE It might be possible that I was not in that meeting. MR BERGER Mr Victor Mthembu goes further, he says: "The attack of the 17th of June in Boipatong was not approved by the IFP leadership", do you agree with that? MR KHANYILE That will mean, or I would say that is from Mr Mthembu. To my knowledge it is that it was something that's been taken within or inside. I don't know whether the senior members of the organisation were involved. MR BERGER Do you agree or do you disagree with the statement by Victor Mthembu that the attack on the 17th of June was not approved by the IFP leadership? MR KHANYILE I don't understand when you say it was not approved by the IFP leaders. You are presenting the facts as if it was something where the leaders were sitting down and discussing and they're refusing to approve the attack. CHAIRPERSON It is being said that the attack was not approved by the IFP as an organisation, do you understand? MR KHANYILE I understand but I don't understand when you say it wasn't approved because it looks like it was something that was discussed and someone denied or didn't approve of what was being discussed. CHAIRPERSON It is said that Mr Mthembu said before the Committee that the attack at Boipatong was not approved by the IFP as an organisation, what do you say? MR KHANYILE Yes, I would say it's correct. MR BERGER Mr Mthembu goes further and he says "All the residents of the kwaMadala Hostel were afraid of Chonco and they were forced to attend the meeting", do you agree with that? MR KHANYILE There somewhere I don't understand, you said they were forced to attend the meeting? MR BERGER Yes, that's what I've read to you. CHAIRPERSON I thought you said they were forced to go to the meeting? MR BERGER Yes, that's what I just read and I'm asking the witness if he agrees with that. CHAIRPERSON The Interpreter is talking about something totally, he's talking about the organisation. It is said that people were forced to attend at meeting? MR KHANYILE Which meeting, do you mean the meeting to attack or any other meetings? MR BERGER Let's start with the meeting on the 17th of June, the meeting in the stadium. Were residents forced to attend that meeting? MR KHANYILE My perception of the situation at the time was that all the people who were at the stadium were there of their own free will. I was also one of them who was freely and voluntarily at the stadium. MR BERGER Was there any meeting of the residents of kwaMadala at which residents were forced to attend because they were afraid of Chonco? MR KHANYILE I don't know that. MR BERGER And finally, in this paragraph that I'm reading from, Mr Thembu said "Vanana Zulu knew about it but he went to his family. Either he knew that residents were forced to attend a meeting or he knew that the attack did not have the approval of the IFP leadership" MR KHANYILE I will not deny that. I don't know when Vanana Zulu and Mthembu discussed this, I personally don't know anything about that. MR BERGER You see my difficulty is this, on your own evidence Vanana Zulu was aware of the problems of the kwaMadala residents, I'm referring to the meeting of three weeks before the attack, he knew that the residents wanted action, he knew that the leadership had told the residents: "Leave it to us, we will think about this", and he either knew that people were being forced to attend a meeting on the 17th or he knew that the attack did not have the sanction of the IFP leadership, and you are saying that at that critical time Mr Vanana Zulu just left the hostel to go and stay with his family, can that possibly be right Mr Khanyile? MR KHANYILE I would like to explain to Mr Berger that it didn't mean if Vanana Zulu was not at kwaMadala Hostel nothing could happen, there were other leaders who would act in his position. That he left for his home knowing that there will be an attack, whether he didn't know, it's something that I don't know. MR BERGER And you see it goes further than that because Mr Vanana Zulu had a personal interest in at least one house in Boipatong and that was the house where his parents-in-law lived. At the time of attack Mr Zulu's parents-in-law were living in Boipatong. Are you saying that with knowledge of a possibility of an attack on Boipatong, Mr Vanana Zulu would have left whilst his family was in the township? CHAIRPERSON What is the question you are putting to this witness? MR BERGER The question I'm putting to this witness is that there were a number of reasons, not least of them personal, why Mr Vanana Zulu would not have left the hostel at that critical time, and I'm putting to him that he is therefore protecting Mr Zulu when he says that Mr Zulu was not in charge of the attack and not present during the attack. CHAIRPERSON Do you understand that question? INTERPRETER The speaker's microphone is not on. CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] why he had to be there. MR KHANYILE What I'm trying to explain Mr Berger, is one thing and that is that during the attack at Boipatong, Mr Zulu was not present. As I said he was away for a week or about three weeks. The question of whether he knew or didn't know is something that I don't know, all that I know is that he was not present during the attack at Boipatong. MR BERGER The meeting three weeks before the attack, you say the leaders said: "Let us think about it". Then there was a meeting a week before the attack you say, that would have been on the 10th of June, at that meeting was there an instruction given that Boipatong had to be attacked? MR KHANYILE No, it wasn't given. What we were told is that we should be vigilant, that so and so should be attacked we were not told. MR BERGER Let me refer you to page 95, paragraph 11(b), now you've told the Committee that these are your words. You were asked to give particulars of the, relating to the orders or approval which you received in relation to the acts which you committed and this is what you said "An order was given by leaders of the IFP living in the kwaMadala Hostel, that Boipatong must be attacked. The orders were given on the 10th and the 17th of June 1992. The leaders were Mkhize and Chonco. Mkhize lives in the Khayelitsha Hostel" Is that answer not correct Mr Khanyile? MR KHANYILE What is written there I can't confirm. That Mkhize is staying in Khayelitsha is not true, he was staying at kwaMadala Hostel. Also that we were told before the 17th that Boipatong should be attacked, that is not true, we were told on the 17th, on the day of the attack, that: "Today you are supposed to go and attack Boipatong". MR BERGER Why did you say that an instruction was given on the 10th of June 1992, if no such instruction was given? MR KHANYILE The instruction I'm referring to is that we were told that there will be an attack but Boipatong was not mentioned. CHAIRPERSON When was that? Was that the second meeting? MR KHANYILE Yes, the second meeting. MR BERGER Mr Khanyile, I asked you whether these were your words, you say that they were read back to you and that they were correct. My question to you is, why did you say that instructions were given both on the 10th of June and on the 17th of June, that Boipatong must be attacked? MR STRYDOM I object to that question, that is not what is stated here. What is stated here is that, and I'm going to read it in Afrikaans 'n Bevel deur leiers van die IFP, woonagtig in die kwaMadala Hostel, dat Boipatong aangeval moet word. Bevele is gegee op die 10de en 17de Junie" It does not state that the order to attack Boipatong was given on the 10th and on the 17th of June. CHAIRPERSON Just come again? MR STRYDOM It's not stated here that the order to attack Boipatong was given on the 10th and the 17th of June. Orders were given on the 10th and 17th of June, that is what is stated here. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR BERGER Mr Khanyile, I'll ask you the question again, why did you state here in 11(b), that orders were given on the 10th and 17th of June 1992? MR KHANYILE What I'm trying to explain is that I said we were informed that there was a possibility of an attack on that day, I don't deny that. What I deny is that we were told that we were going to attack a specific place at a particular time. MR BERGER Let me ask you this, what instruction were you given on the 10th of June 1992? MR KHANYILE The instruction was that we should stay vigilant and be prepared and ready, that is all. MR BERGER Be prepared and ready for what Mr Khanyile? MR KHANYILE Mr Berger, when they say: "Get ready", meaning that your arms or weapons should be next to you, even a young child will understand that. MR BERGER It means: get ready for an attack does it not? MR KHANYILE That's what I understood it to mean. MR BERGER And what did you understand or who did you understand was going to be the target of that attack? MR KHANYILE I didn't know exactly as to the particular which we were to attack because the whole Vaal was an enemy to us. CHAIRPERSON When you were given these instructions during the second meeting, namely that: "be prepared for the attack", did you think who was going to be the target of the pending attack? MR KHANYILE I would say even if I wasn't sure I thought Boipatong is one of the possible targets because that is one of the places where they were killing us. MR BERGER But it might not have been Boipatong, is that what you're saying, it could have been anywhere else? MR KHANYILE That's possible. MR BERGER Where else could there have been an attack? MR KHANYILE As I've explained, the whole Vaal wasn't treating us well. MR BERGER So as far as you were concerned you could quite equally have attacked Bophelong, Sharpeville, Sebokeng, any of those townships you could have attacked? MR KHANYILE That is also possible but I have already clarified that on those days or during those times, the people who were burning us with tyres were people from Boipatong. MR BERGER No the other townships, just Boipatong, is that what you're saying now? MR KHANYILE I said the whole Vaal was killing us, but on those days the people who were really busy killing us were people from Boipatong. MR BERGER Which day or days are you referring to? MR KHANYILE I'm referring to the days towards the attack. MR BERGER Are you not forgetting another meeting Mr Khanyile, a meeting which was held on Sunday the 14th of June 1992 at kwaMadala Hostel? MR KHANYILE If Mr Berger can remind me what was said in the meeting I might remember. MR BERGER Well you've remember a meeting three weeks before the attack, you've remembered a meeting one week before the attack, do you know remember a meeting three or four days before the attack? MR KHANYILE I don't remember the meeting. MR BERGER Let me refresh your memory, it was a meeting addressed by Mr Themba Xhosa, do you remember it? MR KHANYILE I still don't remember such a meeting. To explain Mr Berger, I wasn't going to be able to remember all the meetings because some meetings happened while I was present, some while I was away. CHAIRPERSON Mr Khanyile, please speak up because I can't hear you. MR KHANYILE I was trying to explain to Mr Berger that some meetings occurred in my absence while some meetings occurred while I was present but I did attend all the meetings that were held at kwaMadala Hostel. MR BERGER At some stage in your evidence you said that you never left kwaMadala Hostel, you never went into Boipatong, you stayed in kwaMadala Hostel, do you remember that? MR KHANYILE That's true. MR BERGER Now on the Sunday before the attack, that's the 14th of June, Themba Xhosa and a Mr Dlamini came to kwaMadala and addressed the people in the stadium and it was a meeting where only the men were present. Dlamini apparently opened the meeting and he said: "The meeting had been called because our people are dying". He said that this problem had been reported to Mangasutu Buthelezi. Themba Xhosa also addressed the meeting. I'm reading from an affidavit from Mr Victor Mthembu and this is what he says Themba Xhosa said "He was also angry at the killing of his people and he said: "if the people come and attack you, you are supposed to fight back and kill them'" Surely Mr Khanyile, you remember this meeting? MR KHANYILE As I have already stated, I don't remember this particular meeting and it is clear that I wasn't present. MR BERGER How could you not have been present? Let's look at the context: you and the other men have been instructed to be on the alert for an attack, you understood that to mean an attack on the residents of Boipatong, you never went out of the hostel, you remained in the hostel, three days before the attack there is this meeting where important issues are being discussed, where were you on that Sunday preceding the attack? MR KHANYILE Mr Berger, even if I can't remember exactly where I was on that particular day, I would like to explain that. The fact that I was staying at kwaMadala doesn't mean that I wasn't invited to visit other people or that I didn't have a girlfriend whom I could visit. MR BERGER What we know Mr Khanyile ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Mr Berger, it's about 5 o'clock, will you please wrap it up now? MR BERGER I'll wrap it up now. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR BERGER What we know Mr Khanyile, is that on your own evidence you were in the hostel on that Sunday, correct? MR KHANYILE I never said that. MR BERGER But you said you never left the hostel, therefore you must have been there? MR KHANYILE Sir, I thought you said since I was staying at kwaMadala, I never went to Boipatong or other places. I was referring like, that you mean that I never went out of kwaMadala to go wherever I wished to go. MR BERGER Mr Khanyile, I'll wrap it up now, you cannot tell the Committee where you were on Sunday the 14th of June, is that correct? MR KHANYILE I believe Mr Berger, you yourself personally, if I were to ask you where were you on the 14th of June, you won't be able to answer that question because I think you only remember a day if there was a particular incident that's so ...[indistinct] to make you remember it. MR BERGER I take it Mr Khanyile, that the answer to my question is: yes, you cannot say where you were on Sunday the 14th of June 1992, am I correct? MR KHANYILE If I knew Mr Berger, I would have told you. MR BERGER I take that as a: "yes", and I put it to you that the reason that you do not want to admit that you were in this meeting of the 14th of June 1992 is because you know very well that the attack was discussed at that meeting and you want to protect Mr Themba Xhosa, isn't that correct? MR KHANYILE Mr Berger, we were told that we are here to speak the truth but I can see that you are pulling me to a side where I have to lie and this is something that I'm not going to do. MR BERGER Chairperson, perhaps this would be an appropriate time. CHAIRPERSON We will adjourn now for the day. We will resume tomorrow morning at 9 o'clock. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS