amntrans AMNESTY HEARING 1998-08-12 VANDERBIJLPARK 2 MPLUPEKI S TSHABANGU AM 7391/97 BOIPATONG MASSACRE https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=52810&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1998/98081114_vdb_2boipat2.htm ON RESUMPTION MR STRYDOM Chairperson, the next applicant is Mplupeki Samu Tshabangu. His application number is 7391/97. CHAIRPERSON May we first hear what language is he going to speak? MR TSHABANGU I will speak Zulu. MPLUPEKI SAMU TSHABANGU (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR STRYDOM Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Tshabangu, you applied for amnesty and signed a form in terms of the Act. Can you just confirm your signature as it appears on page 167 of the Bundle. MR TSHABANGU Yes, it is my signature. MR STRYDOM Annexed to the application, are two pages, page 168 and page 169 which answers certain questions contained in the application. Do you confirm the contents of the annexures? MR TSHABANGU Yes, I confirm. MR STRYDOM You were also asked certain further particulars and answers were provided on page 172, 173, 174 of the Bundle. Do you confirm the correctness of your answers? MR TSHABANGU Yes. MR STRYDOM And then you made an affidavit on page 175 up to page 179. Do you confirm the correctness of this affidavit? MR TSHABANGU Yes, I confirm. MR STRYDOM Mr Tshabangu, are you a Zulu person? MR TSHABANGU No. I am Tsangaan, Tsonga. MR STRYDOM Where were you born? MR TSHABANGU At Boipatong. MR STRYDOM So can I take it that you know Boipatong, the streets in Boipatong and the whole area of Boipatong? MR TSHABANGU Yes. MR STRYDOM Did you go to school in Boipatong? MR TSHABANGU Yes. MR STRYDOM And did you later join the South African Police Service? MR TSHABANGU Yes. MR STRYDOM Whilst at school, did you hold any position with any political organisation? MR TSHABANGU Yes, I was a member of COSAS. MR STRYDOM You membership with COSAS, did that lead to any trouble for you? MR TSHABANGU Yes. MR STRYDOM Can you explain please? MR TSHABANGU I would say what happened is during my school days, the youth in Boipatong was very active in politics. Inside the school we only had COSAS as the only organisation or student movement. While I was in COSAS some houses belonging to the Police of the Municipality were burnt at Boipatong and it was alleged that I was one of the persons who were involved in the burning of those houses. I appeared in court and I was charged for burning those houses. I won the case. After finishing my matric, I stayed around looking for work in the firms and other places. I ended up working with the SAP. MR STRYDOM Now, did that create problems for you, the fact that you joined the SAP? MR TSHABANGU Yes. Because after that, my former school mates turned against me and I was regarded as an enemy within the community. I think it was because they thought I was an instrument of apartheid. The problems started from that time. MR STRYDOM At that stage when you were in the Police Force, were you still living in Boipatong? MR TSHABANGU Yes. MR STRYDOM Why did, or let me ask you this, did you at a certain stage leave Boipatong? MR TSHABANGU Yes, I once left Boipatong. MR STRYDOM Can you just explain why did you leave Boipatong? MR TSHABANGU During that time, there was intensive fighting within the townships, the war was against the Police or any people who were against the ANC. On one particular day I went to work. As a Policeman I was asked to go to Sharpville and I was working in Sharpville, I was told to cool down the fighting in Sharpville. As I was approaching Sharpville along Vuga Street, I met a big or large group of people. They said here comes in Sotho, the little boy who is cheeky. Since I was in a van, they pulled me out of the car. The other one said let's shoot him, the others said no and I managed to escape. It was on a Sunday if I remember well. The following Monday, it was discovered in the morning that the person involved was a teacher Leqwa Shando. The children marched to the Sharpville police station because of this incident. I was charged with criminal cases of attempted murder in this incident. The attacks continued, directed against the Police and they were attacked by the youth who were aligned to the ANC and I wasn't staying in the township during that time, because most Policemen have to run out due to the fact that their houses were being burnt down, some of them died. One day I visited my friend in a shibeen together with some of my other friends. A group of youth came, this youth were known to me, they were staying around Boipatong. They asked me to come out of the yard, it was at night. I said to them if you want me, you know where I stay, you can come to my home so that we can talk. Because I could see that they were prepared to fight me. As I was sitting in the house, they came into the house. I was stabbed with a knife and also with a spade fork and they hit me with bricks. I was rescued by one of the Police who was present, who shot in the air and they ran away. I went to hospital and I was discharged. When coming from hospital, I went to the parents of the youth since I knew them, we grew up together. Even our parents knew each other. It was the Zwane family, at Letsia in Boipatong. I went to the mother and explained that her child have injured me and I asked them that we should sit down and talk as parents so that we can solve the problem. The mother chased me away, saying that she doesn't want to get involved with youth issues which occurred in shibeens. I went to Vanderbijl police station to open a case. After three days, I went to the police station in Vanderbiljpark to tell the Investigating Officer that I did see the person who injured me and I demanded reasons why he wasn't arrested. No answer was given. During the time Police were busy with investigations of investigating people who were well known, children and comrades. MR STRYDOM Can I just ask you to talk a bit slower, I see the Interpreters will fall behind. MR TSHABANGU The Police were afraid to investigate cases against the comrades, because they know very well that if you were seen as a Policeman who has arrested a comrade, you and your family are in danger or in trouble. I did meet the youth who injured me. I was with my friends in town. We were in the same athletic club with me, I asked him, saying to him brother, since you have injured me, I just want to find out the reason why. He said to me I am an informer. I got angry, we started beating the young man extensively and he died. That contributed towards the anger against me, there were so many attempts to kill me. I remember one incident when we had a ceremony where we slaughtered a lamb at home, it was in winter and the electricity was not working in the township. I was asleep in my bed at around eight o'clock. I heard sounds or cracking of firearms or automatic rifles, directed towards my house. There were in the house my mother, my relatives who just visited the house and children. This happened and it passed. Even if I can't be specific with reference to dates and times, but these are the things that happened in Sharpville specifically, in Voka, we were sitting there, we were called, I was together with Bongani Mbatha and we were called and said, they said in Sotho, here are the Zulu's. They took out, they surrounded us and they were armed, heavily armed. They said Bongani Mbatha should go, they were looking for me only. They surrounded me. Fortunately our of pure luck, I hit someone with my fist since I wasn't armed, fall on the ground and I got a passage to escape and I ran. They shot at me as I was running away. When I was turning, they also threw a hand grenade. I was injured on my leg and I was admitted in hospital. This is one of the incidents that took place. So many times I was attacked, and also my family was attacked. MR STRYDOM Can you give the Committee just an indication of what period you refer to, which year? MR TSHABANGU I am talking with reference to between 1989 and 1992 or 1990. MR STRYDOM At that stage, were you a member of the IFP or not? MR TSHABANGU I was not an IFP member at the time. I became an IFP member after I went to live at KwaMadala hostel. MR STRYDOM Why did you go to KwaMadala hostel? MR TSHABANGU It was the only hiding place I could stay. There wasn't any place I could go to be protected. I could see that if I was to go and stay at any township in Vaal, whether with relatives, I could be killed at any time. There were people whom I knew who were close to me, I was requested to go and stay with them because I was running away from being killed or burnt by the comrades. MR STRYDOM You gave me a photograph which shows or depicts names on a wall. Can you just give the Committee more information about what is written on the wall and where did you get this photograph from? MR TSHABANGU It is written Nana and Getisu, wanted dead or alive. MR STRYDOM Do you know where that picture was taken? MR TSHABANGU It was taken in the house of Buthelezi in Boipatong, Matolo Street. MR STRYDOM Do you know if that was written on the wall before the Boipatong massacre or thereafter? MR TSHABANGU It was before the Boipatong massacre. I also wish to add that it wasn't only, this was not only written in Boipatong, it was written in Sharpville and also Sebokeng. MR BERGER Chairperson, there was an agreement between the parties before this party started, that any documents which were going to be used by the parties, would be circulated beforehand. We have not received copies of that photograph. CHAIRPERSON It is coming to you now. MR STRYDOM I want you to continue from the time you went to stay in KwaMadala hostel. MR TSHABANGU I stayed in KwaMadala hostel, we were locked in a kraal. We are children who grew up in a township. We are not used to live under such conditions. I will say each and every person who stayed at KwaMadala didn't like to live under such conditions. CHAIRPERSON What is the status of this photograph? MR STRYDOM I can just mention that I only received that photograph today, that is the reason why I didn't make copies. The status of the photograph, it was handed over by the person who took the photograph, to this witness. He did not take the photograph, but he says that he was aware of his name that were written all over the townships, but if need be, I will investigate who the photographer is and try to get hold of him to testify, if it is disputed that that photograph was taken by or in Boipatong. I would ask the photograph to be handed in as an Exhibit. The next number is N, Exhibit N. CHAIRPERSON Is there any objection to this photograph being handed in? MR BERGER I have no instructions Chairperson, on the status of this photograph. CHAIRPERSON What was the last Exhibit. MR STRYDOM The last Exhibit was M, so I will ask this photograph to be handed in as Exhibit N. CHAIRPERSON Yes? MR STRYDOM At the stage you moved into KwaMadala hostel, what happened to your parents, did they stay behind in Boipatong or not? MR TSHABANGU Before I can answer that question, I would like to state that where it is written Nana and Getisu, wanted dead or alive, these writings still exist. My parents took me with them after my dad was caught coming from work in Iscor and he was burnt. Even today, he cannot do anything, he can't work to support my brothers, he is permanently paralysed. Therefore the duty of supporting or bringing up the children and my mother who has diabetes, it is within my hands. As I am sitting here today, I don't have a home because our house was burnt down at Boipatong. MR STRYDOM After your parents' house was burnt down at Boipatong, where did they move to? MR TSHABANGU We went to hire a place at Vereeniging in one house. After four months or five, we were forced to leave because we didn't have money to pay rent to the white owner. So we had to move to KwaMadala hostel. MR STRYDOM Do you know who was responsible for the burning of your father? MR TSHABANGU I knew it very well as to who burnt my father. I once met them and talked to them, they also admitted that they burnt him. MR STRYDOM Who were they? The question is these people who admitted to you that they had burnt your father, who are they? MR TSHABANGU It is Nunuza who is now a member of the SANDF, Maboni from Malibogo in Boipatong, Makit. MR STRYDOM As far as your knowledge goes, these people that you have mentioned, did they belong to any political organisation? MR TSHABANGU They are members of the African National Congress. MR STRYDOM Whilst you were staying in Boipatong, was there a group ... CHAIRPERSON Sorry Mr, I am sorry, you have just given the names of Nunuza, Maboni and Malibogo and the last one was, the last person? MR TSHABANGU Chairperson, I would like to rectify. I said Maboni staying at Malibogo Street at Boipatong and Nunuza and Makit. CHAIRPERSON Do you know how to spell the name of Makit? MR TSHABANGU Makit. CHAIRPERSON Do you know the addresses of these people? MR TSHABANGU I don't know the house numbers, however I know that Maboni stays together with Makit. Nunuza was staying, I last knew him staying at the place that I mentioned earlier, (indistinct), that is the place mentioned. CHAIRPERSON Do you know where he works? MR TSHABANGU In 1997, the last time I saw him he was a member of the SANDF, I don't know now. CHAIRPERSON Mr Prior, it seems to me that in terms of Section 30 of the Act, these individuals who have been mentioned by Mr Tshabangu, have been implicated in a manner which may be detrimental to them and that they should receive the appropriate notice in terms of that Section. Thank you. ADV PRIOR I will see that it is attended to Mr Chairman. MR STRYDOM After you moved into KwaMadala Hostel, did you continue to experience problems? MR TSHABANGU Yes, problems continued and they intensified. There is a lot I can say, it could be a long letter if I had to write everything down. I was enclosed in a kraal together with the people who were inmates of the hostel, we couldn't go wherever we wanted to go at a time when we wanted to go out. We couldn't even go to church or to go to a funeral of a close friend, or visiting a friend, even going to town or to a clinic or to a hospital. We were not able to go out. If you had to go out, you were placing your life in danger. MR STRYDOM Did you complain to anybody in the hostel about your situation? MR TSHABANGU During those days, I did not specifically go to a certain person to complain about the conditions. All the people could see or it was clear to everyone that we are having a problem, until we explained to Mr Mkhize in the stadium that we are now tired, that we are killed one by one, he should give us permission to go and fight and defend ourselves. That was the only time one person complained. MR STRYDOM During the evidence of the previous applicant I mentioned certain names to him, I referred him to a certain newspaper clipping. I don't want to repeat each and every incident, but do you confirm those incidents and your knowledge that you know about it? MR TSHABANGU Yes, I do confirm that. Especially if I were to briefly state something about Teacher Mbele. Teacher Mbele did teach us while we were doing standard three in primary school. When the violence erupted and people were burnt, I was very close to Mr Mbele. He was like a friend even though he was older than me. I used to visit him, we could sit and watch TV together or do things like friends. The reason why he was killed, I think it was because of the visit that I paid him together with my friend who passed away, Sidiso. We visited Teacher, Mr Mbele. We asked to sleep in his house. We stayed there and we had a wonderful time. A friend of mine was burnt the same day with Mr Mbele, was Fere. On the following day when we were to leave, we got a message that he had been necklaced, burnt with a tyre and Fere was also necklaced. I think what caused the death was because of the visit we paid to him. MR STRYDOM Approximately how long was that before the attack on Boipatong? MR TSHABANGU I can't say. Let me say I don't remember. CHAIRPERSON Would it have been one year or two years before? MR TSHABANGU If I am not mistaken, I think it is less than six months. If I remember well. MR LAX Sorry Mr Strydom, can you just repeat the name of the second person, I just didn't catch it properly. Your friend, not Teacher Mbele the other person. MR TSHABANGU Fere. MR LAX Was that his surname or his first name? MR TSHABANGU It is the name through which we knew him. We used to know him, he was known as Mfere Fere and we as his friends, we used to call him Fere. MR STRYDOM Now, there was already mention of the meetings that took place before the attack on Boipatong. I want you to comment and state your version of what happened at the meeting where Mr Mkhize was chairing that meeting before the attack. MR TSHABANGU On that day, we were asked or requested to attend a meeting. We gathered and a lot of things were discussed. Up to a stage where Mkhize had to take the stage and speak, Mkhize said stay vigilant and be prepared for a battle against the people who are always killing you, and after that, we dispersed. He said he can't say which day, what time and where, but we should always be ready. MR STRYDOM What did you understand by that? MR TSHABANGU I understood this to mean that we should be prepared for the fight or battle. MR STRYDOM After that, but before the attack, did you hear anything further about the possibility of an attack on any Vaal community? MR TSHABANGU I am left behind, can you please repeat your question. MR STRYDOM After that meeting where Mr Mkhize said those things which you have just mentioned, did you hear anything further about the attack before the 17th of June 1992? MR TSHABANGU No, I didn't hear anything. MR STRYDOM What happened then on the 17th of June 1992? MR TSHABANGU The trumpet was blown, we went to the stadium. Arriving at the stadium, Mr Mkhize addressed us telling us that we should go fetch our arms because the day has arrived. I will say women and children did come to the stadium, they were requested to go back to the hostel. We, the men, went back and took our arms. I personally fetched a knopkierie and the others went back to fetch whatever weapons they had and we went back to the stadium. We were told while we were in the stadium, that there are firearms, those who want to use them, can come and collect them. I was one of those who wanted an AK47 and because the number was small, the number of firearms was not enough I found that they had already finished all the AK47's, so I was armed with a knopkierie. We were sprinkled with intelezi and then we left KwaMadala hostel. MR STRYDOM At the stadium when you arrived back with your knopkierie, who was the people in control? CHAIRPERSON Were you carrying a knopkierie or a stick? MR TSHABANGU Yes, it is a knopkierie. CHAIRPERSON You were carrying an ordinary stick? MR TSHABANGU Yes, an ordinary stick. When I am referring to stick, I don't mean a small stick that you can pick from a tree, I mean a stick, big stick which you can hit a person to the extent that he can die. MR STRYDOM I asked you who the people in control were at the stadium when you returned with the stick? MR TSHABANGU I won't remember exactly those people. I think Mkhize was one of the people who were in charge at the stadium. MR STRYDOM Do you remember what instructions if any, was given at the stadium before you left the hostel? MR TSHABANGU I never heard any instruction discussed. MR STRYDOM Why did you decide to join the group to go to Boipatong? MR TSHABANGU I think we have the common suffering, the people who stay within the KwaMadala hostel, as opposed to those who were staying outside the hostel. Therefore I identified myself with them, with reference to things like burning and other many things. We were also the victims because the ANC attacks were directed against us. I think there are many reasons, but I think the few that I mention are the most important reasons why I identified with the group and I accompanied them. MR STRYDOM Did you realise that some people may identify you in Boipatong? INTERPRETER Please may you repeat the last part of your statement? MR STRYDOM Did the applicant realise that certain people may identify him in Boipatong? MR TSHABANGU Yes, it did come to my mind. MR STRYDOM But why did you go nevertheless? MR TSHABANGU I have already convinced myself that I won't enter the houses because it was going to be easy for them to recognise me in the houses. I stayed in that place for more than 20 years. CHAIRPERSON Are you also called Nana? MR TSHABANGU Yes. MR STRYDOM I want you to have a look at the aerial photograph in front of you, that is Exhibit M1. Can you just show the route and explain the route that the group followed into Boipatong? MR TSHABANGU I don't know where I have to start, is this the line, a railway line? MR STRYDOM Just have a look at the Exhibit, do you understand the Exhibit. Do you see the hostel, do you see Boipatong townships and do you see the factories? MR TSHABANGU Yes. MR STRYDOM Did you leave the hostel through the main gate? MR TSHABANGU Yes. MR STRYDOM Did you - I am going to lead the witness where I think there is no dispute, did you follow the route adjacent to the tar or in the tar towards Frikkie Meyer Boulevard? MR TSHABANGU Yes. MR STRYDOM Close to the intersection of Nobel Boulevard and Frikkie Meyer Boulevard, one can see a certain area with what appears to be a hedge or trees surrounding that area. Can you just explain what that is? MR TSHABANGU It is a nursery. We went behind it. MR STRYDOM If you say behind it, did the group move through the veld towards that pedestrian bridge? MR TSHABANGU Yes. MR STRYDOM Do you see on the Exhibit what appears to be a tree next to the township? MR TSHABANGU If you are referring to point K, yes. MR STRYDOM Did the group move passed that tree? MR TSHABANGU What happened is when we arrived under the tree, we all sat down. Then we divided into two groups and walked down Msheshwe Street and entering Boipatong. MR STRYDOM Msheshwe Street is the most southern street of Boipatong, is that correct? MR TSHABANGU Yes. MR STRYDOM Which group were you? MR TSHABANGU I was in Mr Qonqo's group. MR STRYDOM Where did that group enter Boipatong? MR TSHABANGU We proceeded along Msheshwe Street, we turned up and entered Leqwa Street. MR STRYDOM Did anything of note happen in that area? MR TSHABANGU Yes, something happened. As we proceeded along Msheshwe Street, in one point I think it is Tserela Combined School, the place was barricaded with razor wire and some few logs. We removed the barrication out of the way and we proceeded. We removed the wire which was used to barricade the street. We proceeded and before we reached Leqwa Street, we met a group of young people, I think they were SDU members. Then the shooting took place from both sides. MR STRYDOM Did you see who fired shots in your group? MR TSHABANGU If I remember well, it is Damara who shot. MR STRYDOM What kind of weapon did he have? MR TSHABANGU An AK47. MR STRYDOM After the shots were fired, what happened to the people you referred to as the Self Defence Unit? MR TSHABANGU They retreated, started running away, jumping the fences, entering into some of the houses, were insulting them and our group went up along Leqwa Street where they ran, the other group continued along Msheshwe Street. MR STRYDOM What did you do in Boipatong? MR LAX Sorry, just before you go on. You said something about inciting people, they were jumping over fences, inciting people. What did you mean by that? CHAIRPERSON Insulting? MR TSHABANGU I said we were insulting them. I am one of those who were insulting them. MR STRYDOM Did you go into any houses in Boipatong? CHAIRPERSON Just a minute. When you left the hostel, you were a big group, right? MR TSHABANGU Yes. CHAIRPERSON ... which is K< I think it is, is that where you first split into two groups? MR TSHABANGU Yes. CHAIRPERSON Okay. And your group entered through Msheshwe Road? MR TSHABANGU Yes. CHAIRPERSON Do you know what happened to the other group? MR TSHABANGU We divided into two groups, but both groups were using the same street to enter. CHAIRPERSON So both groups were in Msheshwe? MR TSHABANGU Yes. CHAIRPERSON You then mentioned that when the people that you believed to be SDU members, ran into Leqwa Street? MR TSHABANGU Yes. CHAIRPERSON Which group was this now? MR TSHABANGU It was the group which turned to the left at Leqwa Street, which was under the command of Mr Qonqo. The other group proceeded along Leqwa Street, I don't know who was in charge of the group. CHAIRPERSON Was it at that stage that the group split and went into different directions? MR TSHABANGU Yes. MR LAX I am sorry to come in Mr Strydom. I have heard two different things from you now. Earlier you said the other group proceeded along Msheshwe Street, now you are saying they proceeded along Leqwa Street, can we just clarify this, I am a bit confused. MR TSHABANGU We left the tree, divided into two groups. Two groups proceeded towards the same direction, along we joined Msheshwe Street as two groups proceeding to the same direction. Where Leqwa crosses on our left, crosses Msheshwe Street, after the shooting that occurred against us and the SDU's, the group which was under the command of Qonqo went to Leqwa Street and the other group continued or proceeded along Msheshwe Street, that is what I am trying to explain. MR LAX That is what I thought you said in the beginning, that is why I wanted to correct it because the way it was translated now was that both groups went up and split up Leqwa Street. So I just wanted to clarify that, thank you. MR STRYDOM As your group moved along in the streets of Boipatong, were they always in a tight unit or did they split up in smaller groups as they went along? MR TSHABANGU We were divided, we were divided into small groups. MR STRYDOM Can you give the names of people that walked close to you that you can remember? MR TSHABANGU I won't remember all of them, I will try to mention those who I can still remember. Damara was with us, Themba, Stals who is also an applicant in this hearing, Dondo is also an applicant ... MR LAX You are going a bit too fast. Just slow down a little bit. I got as far as Stals, you said Stals was an applicant, what is his surname? MR TSHABANGU His name is Timothy Stals Mazibuko. Dondo Jack Mbele who is an applicant. Tebogo Ruben is also an applicant, and others whom I can't remember now. MR LAX You mentioned a Themba, who is Themba? MR TSHABANGU That is Themba Maboti. MR LAX And you mentioned a Dondo? MR TSHABANGU He is Dondo Jack Mbele. MR LAX Thank you. MR STRYDOM Did you go into any houses in Boipatong? MR TSHABANGU Yes, I entered into one of the houses. I don't remember which house. I think it is those houses along Mzimvubu going up, I destroyed things in the houses. MR STRYDOM I want you to look at Exhibit J, that is the plan of Boipatong. First just have a look at it, do you understand the manner in which it is set out? MR TSHABANGU Yes, I do understand. MR STRYDOM The group that you were in, can you explain the route you followed through Boipatong, up to the stage you left Boipatong? MR TSHABANGU We entered through Msheshwe Street, we turned on Leqwa and continued, we went to Hlewi and Amadon. That is the route we followed from the time we entered and the time we went out. MR STRYDOM Did you personally attack any person in Boipatong? MR TSHABANGU Yes. Yes, there was one whom I came across who was running, I can't remember the name of the street where I cam across this. I hit him very hard with a stick. That is the person I attacked. Further I also entered into a house and destroyed things. I destroyed things like TV and other things. I can't remember all, I can't remember whether I destroyed a glass on top of something or not. All that I know is that I destroyed a lot of things in that house, I also destroyed things inside and outside. I could have destroyed anything, a window, a car, anything which I could destroy. MR STRYDOM Why did you destroy property in those houses or that house, and outside the houses? MR TSHABANGU It was my contribution in the fight in which we were in. These are the things which I learnt from the Boipatong community, that things are to be destroyed. MR STRYDOM Did you personally witness any killing of any person? MR TSHABANGU I don't know how I should state this, with reference to the killing of people. What I am going to say is the person that shot, usually you will fall or try to limp, running away. I won't be able to say whether he is dead or not, because these things were happening as we were running and people were shot. I saw other people shooting some of the people. These are things that happened, however, I won't be able to say in this particular place, I saw someone dying. However, I did see weapons which were dangerous used on other people, but I can't confirm that those people died or not. MR STRYDOM Apart from Damara who had a weapon, did you see, can you mention names of other people you saw with weapons in Boipatong? MR TSHABANGU People were armed with various arms. Themba Mabotha had a 9 mm, if I remember well, he shot when we were passing the shops. Ruben also shot several times. Dondo also fired several times and all the people I am mentioning, but I can't remember exactly as to who did what. I cannot deny if someone was to come and say someone did this and that, since I had not seen that. MR STRYDOM Did your group go to Slovo Park or not? MR TSHABANGU We didn't reach Slovo Park. CHAIRPERSON I am sorry to interrupt you Mr Strydom, Mr Tshabangu, on this map which is Exhibit G, I think it is. Using this pink highlight, would you indicate on this map the route that you followed when you, the point at which you entered and the point at which you went out? Can you do that? MR TSHABANGU Sir, I would like to find out whether you are referring to my group, yes, sir I can state the point at which we entered. I have a problem with the exit, I can't remember whether it is Mafikeng or Matolo of Hlewi, therefore I said in one of those streets. CHAIRPERSON Is it possible to indicate with the highlighter as far as you can remember, but if you don't remember, don't make any mark, do you understand that? MR TSHABANGU Yes. I have a problem in remembering, because there are three streets that were used to get out. I will not remember which one I used to get out. I do not know what to do. CHAIRPERSON If you can't recall, it doesn't matter. All I wanted to do was just to indicate as far as you can remember. If you don't, don't do anything. MR LAX So Mr Tshabangu, just having looked at the red mark you have made on the map, it stops at the interception of Hlewi and Leqwa Streets? MR TSHABANGU Yes. MR LAX And that is because you are not sure what happened from that point onwards? MR TSHABANGU Yes. MR STRYDOM After you left Boipatong, did you follow the same route that you followed when you went to Boipatong? MR TSHABANGU I am not sure whether we went back via the back of the nursery. I should think that we might use the street which goes to ... INTERPRETER There is a confusion here. Maybe he should repeat because we are not understanding exactly what he is saying. MR STRYDOM Sorry the Interpreter can't hear you and they are not sure what you are saying, would you mind just repeating what you said. MR TSHABANGU I don't remember which way we used to go back, whether we went at the back of the nursery, I don't remember. But I know that we didn't use the street which is adjacent to the firms. We only used the street, this particular street when we were about to enter the bridge next to KwaMadala hostel. MR STRYDOM Did you use the foot bridge close to Frikkie Meyer Boulevard to cross Frikkie Meyer Boulevard? MR TSHABANGU Yes. MR STRYDOM What happened when you got back into the hostel? MR TSHABANGU We entered the hostel, I don't remember exactly who said to us that we should enter our respective rooms as quickly as possible, that is what happened. MR STRYDOM Are you aware of any of the looted goods that came back from Boipatong, that was burnt afterwards? MR TSHABANGU Yes. MR STRYDOM Do you remember who gave the instruction to burn the goods? MR TSHABANGU No. MR STRYDOM Did you partake in the burning of the goods? MR TSHABANGU I went to watch the burning of the goods. I didn't burn them or help to burn them by turning them around or take anything to the fire because I personally didn't take anything from Boipatong, but I did see the goods being burnt. MR STRYDOM Do you remember when these goods were burnt? MR TSHABANGU I think it was during the day, the following day, following the day of the attack, I would say in other words the 18th, during the day. MR STRYDOM Do you know a person with the name of Katsizi? MR TSHABANGU Yes. MR STRYDOM Where did you know him from? MR TSHABANGU From KwaMadala hostel. MR STRYDOM His real name is Victor Geswa, is that correct? MR TSHABANGU Yes. MR STRYDOM Were you involved in any so called hitsquad activities either alone or with him? MR TSHABANGU No. MR STRYDOM Do you know a person by the name of George Khumalo? MR TSHABANGU Yes. MR STRYDOM Were you involved with him in any unlawful activities? MR TSHABANGU No. MR STRYDOM Thinking back today about the attack, how do you feel about it? MR TSHABANGU I feel very bad about it. As I am speaking now, someone might think that I am proud of what had happened at Boipatong, but my soul is hurt. I have remembered things that happened to me which happened to other people because of me. And other people who suffered because of the kind of life that they chose to live. About the cry of the people of Boipatong community during that night, I can't even explain, it is hurting. I don't have the words to explain how I feel, but it is painful. MR STRYDOM I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STRYDOM . CHAIRPERSON At this stage we will take a 15 minute adjournment. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS MPLUPEKI SIMON TSHABANGU (still under oath) CHAIRPERSON Mr Berger? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BERGER Thank you Chairperson. Mr Tshabangu, when you arrived at the corner of Msheshwe and Leqwa Streets, you say that there was some barricades which you removed, is that correct? MR TSHABANGU No. We didn't remove these items right at the corner, but we removed them along Msheshwe next to Tserela Combined High School. MR BERGER Were there any obstacles in the road at the corner of Msheshwe and Leqwa Streets? MR TSHABANGU I don't remember. MR BERGER Were there any obstacles in the road at the entrance to the township in Msheshwe Street? MR TSHABANGU I won't be able to answer with reference to the entrance. I will say at the beginning of Msheshwe Street, not at the first or second house, but right at the beginning of Msheshwe. MR BERGER What was right at the beginning of Msheshwe Street? MR TSHABANGU I don't remember. MR BERGER You see, what I want to put to you is that it was quite possible for vehicles to drive, to enter Boipatong and to drive through the streets of Boipatong that night, would you agree? MR TSHABANGU Yes, in some roads it was possible. I can't deny that it will be possible for a car to travel along those streets, however, the fact is I and the people who were with me in the other group, did not at any stage travel in a car from the time we left KwaMadala until the time we went back to KwaMadala hostel. MR BERGER I am not asking you about that Mr Tshabangu. I am asking you whether it was possible for vehicles to enter Boipatong and to drive through the streets of Boipatong at the time when you were there. MR TSHABANGU I stated that it was possible that a car could be travelling in some of the streets. MR BERGER Which streets are you referring to? MR TSHABANGU I can't say precisely which streets, I am trying to recall. The plan, the conditions in the streets during the time as there were some who were barricaded and some who were not, but I can't specifically say in this particular street a car could travel or not. MR BERGER What I just want to put to you is that shortly before the attack, the Police fired shots in Boipatong to clear the streets of young men. And shortly after the attack, ambulances were able to enter Boipatong, to drive through the streets of Boipatong and to remove the dead and injured. So, would you agree with me if I say that it was possible for that to have been done? MR TSHABANGU I am forced to agree with you because I can't remember. I heard during this year 1998 from my friends who stays at Boipatong when we attended a Truth Commission hearing at Boipatong, that before the incident, Police came and shot at people who were guarding the place. MR BERGER And by so doing, cleared the streets of those people, is that what you heard? MR TSHABANGU I won't confirm that they were clearing the streets or doing their Police work. I won't be able to answer on behalf of the Police. MR BERGER Is it correct Mr Tshabangu, that at the last hearing of these amnesty applications, you told members of the community who were gathered there that Mr Victor Mthembu was telling lies and that you would come and tell the truth? MR TSHABANGU I never said Victor lied. Victor says what he says himself as Victor Mthembu. I as Mplupeki Tshabangu, I am here to cleanse my heart. The words that I uttered from the time I started giving evidence, I tried to mention things which I know and things which I had seen. What Victor said is what he said. I can't answer on his behalf. MR BERGER Is it your evidence that you were chased out of Boipatong because of your connections with the Police? MR TSHABANGU It is one of the reasons. There are many reasons. In my evidence I have stated that at the time I was a COSAS member, thereafter I became an instrument of oppression under the government which oppressed the people, that matter put me in a situation where I became an enemy against the community who thought I might have sold them out. As I have explained about the teacher whom I shot, Zwane gentleman who died, might be some of the reasons which created the animosity between me and the community and also my friendship with the IFP. I will say these are some of the reasons. MR BERGER Isn't the reason that you fled Boipatong, the death of Lita Zwane? MR TSHABANGU It is one of the reasons, but it is not the only reason. MR BERGER Isn't it also correct that you fought with Lita Zwane over a girlfriend? MR TSHABANGU No. MR BERGER Do you know a woman by the name of Maga Pagati? Pagati is her mother's name? MR TSHABANGU I know Maga, but I don't know Maga Pagati. The Maki that I know, Maki was never in love with Lita. Lita provoked me, he stabbed me while in the company of other men. He was very active in the activities of the ANC. MR BERGER Was Maga your girlfriend? MR TSHABANGU Yes. MR BERGER And is it not correct that she was also having a relationship with Lita Zwane? MR TSHABANGU No. MR BERGER And isn't it correct that you tied Lita Zwane to a tree and removed his genitals? MR TSHABANGU That is very wrong. I think you have been given wrong information. I would like you to go and find out the dockets concerning the death of Lita Zwane, that will prove that with respect, what you are saying is not true, or it is a lie. That I tied him or cut his genitals, also with reference to the girlfriend relationship. MR BERGER Is it not correct that you dragged Lita Zwane with a car between Boipatong and Sharpville? MR TSHABANGU That is not correct. The report of the District Surgeon over the death of Lita Zwane, it was said the cause of death was brain haemorrhage because of the beatings he suffered from us. At no stage was he dragged by a car. MR BERGER Is it correct that as a result of the death of Lita Zwane and the manner in which he had been killed, that you became persona non grata in Boipatong? MR TSHABANGU That is not correct. I would like to tell you or before I tell you what I want to tell you, I understand that when a person die, he cannot be taken exactly or treated the same as the death of a dog. The death of Lita was not a usual death. I would say to correct, his death was not different to the other deaths of people in the township. My intention was not to kill him, however, he died out of this. MR BERGER Is it correct that you were convicted of kidnapping? MR TSHABANGU Yes. MR BERGER How did you kidnap Lita Zwane, what did you do? MR TSHABANGU I met him in town. I said I am going to open a case against him and that he should accompany me to the police station. CHAIRPERSON Mr Berger, what is the relevance of this to the inquiry that is before us? MR BERGER The relevance Chairperson, is that this was a personal attack, not a political attack. It was personal, not political, the death of Lita Zwane. MR STRYDOM Chairperson, can I just mention that the applicant has been charged for his death, he has been convicted. That issue has been dealt with in a court of law already. The applicant is not applying for amnesty for the death of that specific person, Lita Zwane, so I submit that it is irrelevant at this stage. MR BERGER Chairperson, in the applicant's papers and particularly in his affidavit starting at page 175, he deals with the death of Lita Zwane. I would have thought that that ... CHAIRPERSON He is not applying for amnesty in respect of the death of that individual, is that right Mr Strydom? MR STRYDOM That is so. MR BERGER Chairperson, he confirmed his affidavit under oath. If I am not supposed to cross-examine him on certain aspects of his affidavit, then I will leave it out, but he draws the link between that political killing, he says that was also a political, meaning what he did in Boipatong was political. I am attempting to show that the first one was not political. I can't take it any further than that. MR STRYDOM Chairperson, I would submit that detail as to how Lita Zwane was killed, has got nothing to do with the issue. If the question is what the reason for his death was, that would be a question that would be allowed. MR BERGER Chairperson, I need a direction on what I should do. CHAIRPERSON The submission is that the question of how he died, is irrelevant to the question of why he was killed. That is what the submission is. What do you say to that? MR BERGER I submit that the savagery of the attack, given the personal circumstances between him and Lita Zwane, tends to show that this was a personal feud which was taken to extremes. If the witness is not telling the truth about it, I would like to probe, but Chairperson, I can't take it any further than that. CHAIRPERSON Put the question. Answer the question Mr Tshabangu. MR TSHABANGU Please repeat your question. MR BERGER You were telling us Mr Tshabangu, you were telling us how you abducted this man, you said you approached him, you told him you wanted to take him to the police station. That is when we were interrupted, so carry on from there. MR TSHABANGU I took him and I did that because the Investigating Officer on that case, was not willing or afraid to arrest him. What I said, my first word when I came to him, I asked him why did you stab me. He didn't answer or said anything which made sense. He refused to go with me. I took him to the police station. He said I can do what I can do. Rembering that he did stab me, and he just started wit me, I didn't do anything, things got out of hand. I didn't take him to the police station then. I was convinced that I wanted to avenge by assaulting him. My main aim was to inflict pain on him but the assault resulted in his death. That is what happened. CHAIRPERSON Weren't you a member of the Police Force then? MR TSHABANGU Yes. CHAIRPERSON Who was the Investigating Officer? MR TSHABANGU I don't remember his name, but I know him facially. He is stationed at Vanderbijl police station. MR BERGER Why do you say that when Lita Zwane stabbed you, that it was political? MR TSHABANGU It is because they approached me in the comrade fashion. As a person who knows the comrades, I stayed with them in the township, during those days they came and stood outside, started chanting and they called me to come out and that is the comrade fashion. They said the aim was to remove all the Police from the community or the township and they were asking why was I still in the community while others have run away. MR BERGER Is it correct that at your hearing in connection with the death of Lita Zwane, you came across Mr Miga who is the father of Amos Miga who was killed by George Khumalo, you met Mr Miga at your hearing, is that correct? MR TSHABANGU I don't know which Miga you are referring to whose son was killed by George Khumalo. If he is present here, I would like to request that he will stand up. If you are referring to Zozo, I will say yes. If you are referring to a man known as Zozo, I would agree with you. MR BERGER Chairperson, can I ask Mr Miga to stand? Mr Tshabangu, that is Mr Miga. MR TSHABANGU Yes. MR BERGER You encountered him at your hearing, is that correct? MR TSHABANGU Yes. MR BERGER And at that hearing, you and Victor Geswa threatened to assault Mr Miga, isn't that correct? MR TSHABANGU That is not correct. ADV PRIOR Mr Chairman, with respect, I don't know how this relates to the question of amnesty or the Boipatong incident, unless my learned friend can indicate, but I would ask the Committee to exercise its discretion and place reasonable limits on these collateral issues that are expending a lot of time away from the main, central issues Mr Chairman. Time is of the essence and although one doesn't want to stop my learned friend from canvassing issues, it certainly seems to be collateral matter which doesn't take the matter at hand, very much further. MR BERGER Chairperson, I have two points in answer. The first is that it is our contention that Mr Nana Tshabangu and others including in particular Mr Victor Geswa, were part of a gang who were terrorising the community of Boipatong. It was for those reasons and in particular the death of Lita Zwane that this applicant was forced out of Boipatong. It goes to the question of whether this was political or whether this was criminal. The second point Chairperson, is that these are issues which are very close to the heart of many, many members of the community. In my consultations with the community, dealing with Nana Tshabangu, these are issues which have repeatedly come up. I understand that one of the purposes of these amnesty hearings, is reconciliation. If I can't canvass these issues with this applicant, the members of the community are going to feel that the issues which are important to them, are being bottled up. That is the reason that I am pursuing this line. MR LAX Mr Berger, while you are quite correct that the purpose of the Act is, one of the purposes of the Act is to try and foster reconciliation. The purpose of these hearings is very specific in the Act and there has already been a human rights violations committee hearing which intended to canvass a whole broad variety of issues that you are now introducing and it was held in this part of the world and many of your clients would have been there and had that opportunity to ventilate those issues. While we don't want to pour cold water on their feelings and we perfectly understand and respect their need for further elucidation, we also have a job to do with severe time constraints and we need to be a bit more focused and so, if you could try and keep the issues as narrow as possible, rather than opening up as many cans of worms as possible, we would facilitate our process a lot better. CHAIRPERSON If you want to put to this witness that he was part of a gang of criminals who were terrorising the township, put that to him. Let's not go around in circles, just put that to him and let's hear what his answer is. MR BERGER Chairperson, with respect the applicant will deny it, and ... CHAIRPERSON But please put those facts to him and let's see what he has to say. Just put them to him. MR BERGER Mr Tshabangu, is it correct that you were part of a gang of criminals who were terrorising the community of Boipatong? MR TSHABANGU That is not correct. I knew that most people think like that. From what you get from the Boipatong community, me and my friend, we were not terrorising the community or going around terrorising the community. I didn't understand or had the feeling that I go around terrorising, I am surprised when you mentioned Miga. I never even greeted a single person from Boipatong or speak to someone from Boipatong on the day of the trial of Lita because I knew we were enemies. I was never a gang member and I will never be in my life. MR BERGER Victor Geswa was your good friend, am I right? MR TSHABANGU No. MR BERGER Was he your friend? MR TSHABANGU He was my comrade. I understood him to be my comrade. MR BERGER George Khumalo was also your comrade, was he not? MR TSHABANGU Yes. MR BERGER Do you deny that after the release of George Khumalo, that you, George Khumalo and Victor Geswa terrorised the area of Boipatong? MR TSHABANGU I deny all that because I believe that Victor Geswa ended up dying, people would know exactly who he was. I would tell you something that you don't know, even today people don't know who is Nana, what kind of person is Nana. If you go and ask a particular person who is Nana, they will give you different descriptions. I and George Khumalo never terrorised the community of Boipatong and if the community themselves understood this to mean that when we go back to the township where we were born and bred, where we have friends, if they consider as bad when we come in a car and we find them sitting in a group, they start driving away and they think it is the way we are terrorising them, that is wrong. I used to travel in a car, and I will go to the township during the day unarmed, but I knew that my life was in danger. I used to take the grocery to where one of my children stays. I will find people standing in a group in a corner. When I appear in a car, they will run away and it will be painful to me like I have turned into an animal that people were running away from me, because I didn't understand why they were running away from me. I don't know whether you consider that as a way of terrorising the people. CHAIRPERSON Let me understand this. You are saying that very few people know who Nana is. MR TSHABANGU What I am trying to explain, I am trying to explain that people talk about this person as if they know this person, meanwhile they don't know. CHAIRPERSON Are you referring to the fact that people don't know what type of a person Nana is? MR TSHABANGU It is so sir. When they see me in the company of Katis, I would say most people when Katis died, they never knew what kind of person he was. I was saying this with reference to that. CHAIRPERSON Do you know why when people see you stop the car, they would run away? MR TSHABANGU I think it is because they were afraid of the things which they had done against me about the house that they burnt and the other things that I have mentioned before this Committee. Maybe they were thinking that I knew that it is them and I will fight them or that I will fight because they did that and that to so and so. But it was not the case. MR BERGER Do you deny that George Khumalo killed Amos Miga? MR TSHABANGU I don't agree with this and I don't deny this. I don't know how he died, whether he was killed by George, when and why were the reasons of his death. I don't know anything about the involvement of George Khumalo. MR BERGER Damara Qonqo was also your friend, is that correct? MR TSHABANGU That is wrong. He was one of the persons I was staying with in the hostel. Maybe you have to clarify or explain to me your own perception of what is a friend. How shall a friend be? What kind of things do you do with your friend? MR BERGER Is it not also correct that Victor Geswa was known throughout the Vaal as the Vaal Monster? MR TSHABANGU He used to be referred to like that in Vaal. MR BERGER And why do you think you were associated on that wall that is depicted on the photograph, with the Vaal Monster as being wanted dead or alive, why the two of you? MR TSHABANGU I am not the only one whose name was written with his name on the wall. I can take you to (indistinct) in Vaal where his name is mentioned with other people names. I think people thought that he was a leader of something, something like a gang who always instruct people to go to this particular place to do this and that. But that was not true. MR BERGER And your evidence was that this sign which said "Getisu and Nana wanted dead or alive", that appeared in Boipatong, Sharpville and Sebokeng? MR TSHABANGU That is correct sir. It is as you say, at Sharpville, Boipatong, Sebokeng. People staying in these respective places, I would say it is only the people of Boipatong who can tell you why they associated me with this man. Maybe they know of anything that are common between me and him or any gang activities as they think. I will say that they are wrong. MR BERGER You will also see on that photograph, the slogan Viva PAC, do you see that? MR TSHABANGU Yes. MR BERGER Is it therefore correct that at the time of the attack, you were aware that there were PAC supporters in Boipatong? MR TSHABANGU I was aware. What was happening at the time is all the small political organisations like PAC and others, were under the command of the ANC and if you were not in line with the ANC policies, you were to be necklaced with a tyre. MR BERGER Mr Tshabangu, I am not going to argue with you on that point, but you know very well that the ANC and the PAC have for many years been separate political organisations, don't you? MR TSHABANGU Yes, I know that. I also know that at times the ANC doesn't want the existence of other political organisations. MR BERGER Not only ANC and PAC, but also IFP supporters were living in Boipatong at the time of the attack, correct? MR TSHABANGU Yes. MR BERGER It is also correct, is it not, that you were involved in a shooting incident at your parents' house, you shot at your parents' house? MR TSHABANGU As you can see me shaking my head, or smiling, it doesn't mean that I want to laugh, but I am trying to respond to you. With respect, what you are saying in this moment, it is not the first time for me to hear this. I know that some people have said that I did shoot at our house. How can I shoot with two rifles, a AK3 and a Macaroff, directing the shooting towards my home. I will say they were lying, that is not true. MR BERGER And the house was not burnt down - after you left, the house was demolished so that you could not return to the township, isn't that correct? MR TSHABANGU I don't know. I last know that the house was burnt down. MR BERGER Do you recall a meeting three weeks before the attack on Boipatong, at the stadium where people were complaining about what was happening at KwaMadala and where people were asking to attack Boipatong? MR TSHABANGU I remember the meetings where people requested or put this request, and I am not denying that. Whether it was about two or three weeks or one, I can't be able to say yes or no. CHAIRPERSON We were told that prior to the attack in Boipatong, just shortly before the attack, there were at least two meetings. The first meeting was a meeting where the residents of KwaMadala hostel complained to the leadership about the attacks. Do you recall that meeting? MR TSHABANGU I don't remember specifically the meeting where the people complained, I am not sure whether that was the first or the second meeting, but I remember people complaining in one of these meetings. CHAIRPERSON At the other meeting, we were told people were given instructions to be ready for an attack. Do you remember that meeting? MR TSHABANGU Yes. MR BERGER That meeting was on the 10th of June 1992, a week before the attack. MR TSHABANGU Must I comment? MR BERGER The meeting that you are referring to, is that the meeting that was held on the 10th of June? MR TSHABANGU Sir, I won't be able to mention a specific date. My date reference is not that good because this happened about six years ago and I am trying by all means not to tell you lies. I can't remember. MR BERGER On the 22nd of January of this year, you said the following under oath: You said an instruction was given by leaders of the IFP living at the KwaMadala hostel on approximately the 10th and the 17th of June 1992, that Boipatong must be attacked. You can have a look at page 167 for that. MR TSHABANGU Yes, I have said it. MR BERGER Now that I have refreshed your memory, what instruction was given on the 10th of June 1992? MR STRYDOM Chairperson, in all fairness to the witness, I just want to refer to the word "ongeveer", which means more or less the 10th. So it is not as it is, exactly on the 10th. MR BERGER I will put the question again, do you confirm that on approximately the 10th of June 1992, an instruction was given that Boipatong should be attacked? MR TSHABANGU May you please repeat the question sir. MR BERGER Mr Tshabangu, do you confirm what you stated under oath, that on approximately the 10th of June 1992 an instruction was given that Boipatong should be attacked? MR TSHABANGU Yes. MR BERGER Who gave that instruction? MR TSHABANGU I can't remember exactly who was speaking at the meeting, it is anyone between Mkhize and Qonqo. MR BERGER Why was the attack not carried out immediately and why did you wait for a week before carrying out the attack, approximately a week before carrying out the attack? MR TSHABANGU I don't know. It should be understood that I wasn't involved in the planning and I wasn't part of the leadership. There were things which I didn't know and I don't know why it took a week before it could happen. MR BERGER Am I correct then if I understand your evidence to be as follows: Some time before the 10th, you don't know precisely when, the residents of KwaMadala complained to the leaders of KwaMadala that they wished to attack the residents of Boipatong? MR TSHABANGU I personally am saying that residents of KwaMadala hostel complained about the killings directed to them and their relatives in one of those two meetings. MR BERGER You see, we have heard from Mr Khanyile that at this first meeting, when the residents wanted to attack, the leader said leave it with us, we will think about it. Do you confirm that? MR TSHABANGU What was said by Khanyile, it is what he said. I won't like to follow what he said or agree, not specifically what Khanyile said, but I will say what I know because if I were to do it in that fashion, I will end up telling the Committee and the community of Boipatong a lie. I will say what I remember, the way I remember it, therefore I can't confirm or deny what Khanyile said. MR BERGER What you can confirm is that thereafter the leaders came, round about the 10th of June and said we are now going to attack Boipatong, correct? MR TSHABANGU If you are referring to the 17th, yes. MR BERGER No Mr Tshabangu, you have already agreed that on the 10th an instruction was given that Boipatong should be attacked and you told the Committee you did not know why it took from the 10th to the 17th before the attack was launched. Do you stand by that? MR TSHABANGU I am standing in these words. I am saying I don't know the exact date, whether it was the 10th or any other date, that is my words. Further, that in one of the two meetings this was mentioned, but things occurred on the 17th. MR BERGER Chairperson, I see that it is five o'clock. I am not finished with this point. I don't know if you would want to adjourn? Mr Tshabangu, in your application, you say that approximately a week apart, approximately a week before the attack, an instruction was given that Boipatong should be attacked. Do you now dispute that? CHAIRPERSON He is just referring specifically to the aspect of his affidavit where he says that. MR BERGER I am referring to paragraph 11(b) on page 167 Chairperson. MR LAX Sorry Mr Berger, we have canvassed this thing backwards and forwards. You have his evidence already on record, if he is going to change it, well, so be it, but let's not waste time on it. I agree with you that he very distinctly said he didn't understand why it took a week for them to carry out the operation, he wasn't involved in the planning. That was his evidence, let's move on. MR BERGER I will Mr Lax, thank you. Was there not another meeting on Sunday the 14th of June where the attack on Boipatong was discussed? MR TSHABANGU I don't remember. MR BERGER This was a meeting addressed by Mr Themba Khosa? MR TSHABANGU I don't know anything about that. Where Themba Khosa was addressing people about the attack planned at Boipatong, I don't know anything about that. MR BERGER Chairperson, perhaps this will be an appropriate point to take the adjournment. CHAIRPERSON We will adjourn until 9 o'clock tomorrow morning. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS