amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1998-08-13 VANDERBIJLPARK 3 JACK MBELE AM 6119/97 BOIPATONG MASSACRE https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=52812&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1998/98081114_vdb_2boipat3.htm CHAIRPERSON Yes Mr Strydom? MR STRYDOM Chairperson the next witness I intend calling is Jack Mbele, application no 6119/97. I'm not gonna be too long with this witness, we ran a bit late ...(inaudible). ... (inaudible) witness to be in the witness box if he's not going to be finished with during the session. CHAIRPERSON Well unfortunately I don't think it's possible at this stage to give any undertaking in regard to how long the cross-examination is going to be. So as to give you guarantee we will be finished with this witness by the - you know, by the time we adjourn tomorrow. MR BERGER Chairperson what - from our side ... ...(inaudible) CHAIRPERSON Yes. Did you want to ...(inaudible) MR BERGER Chairperson all I wanted to say was from our side we will try our utmost to finish with Mr Mbele by tomorrow, and it is possible. CHAIRPERSON We will not hold you onto your undertaking. Yes Mr Strydom. MR STRYDOM Chairperson if there's a possibility that the witness cannot finish I would submit with respect, that would be unfair to bring this witness back whilst under cross-examination, only in January. I would suggest, and that's only a suggestion, obviously the final decision is in your hands Mr Chairman, but that I lead the witness in chief and maybe then to end the proceedings at that stage. That's just a suggestion I want to make. CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) as it is practically possible. You've got to understand Mr Strydom, there's still a number of applicants that we've got to go through, so we will have to utilise every possible time that we have at our disposal. You know, you have the willingness on the part of counsel of the other side that every endeavour will be made to finish. Let's proceed, and shall we see how far we go. MR STRYDOM Yes, I'm calling Jack Mbele then to testify, if he can just be sworn in. JACK MBELE (duly sworn in, states) EXAMINATION BY MR STRYDOM Mr Mbele in front of you on page 119 of the bundle you'll find your amnesty application. Op page 121 you'll see a signature, is that your signature? MR MBELE Yes that is my signature. MR STRYDOM And do you confirm that you signed that application on the 26th of January 1989 at Koppies Police Station? MR MBELE I agree. MR BERGER Just for the record it's 1998. MR STRYDOM Ja, thank you. And do you confirm the contents of the application? MR MBELE Yes. MR STRYDOM According to the application you were born in Sharpeville, is that correct? MR MBELE That is correct. MR STRYDOM Did you move to the kwaMadala Hostel at a certain stage? MR MBELE That is correct. MR STRYDOM When was that? MR MBELE In October of 1991. MR STRYDOM During 1992 were you a member of the Inkatha Freedom Party or not? MR MBELE I was. MR STRYDOM Did you become a member of the Inkatha Freedom Party after you moved into the hostel, or before that? MR MBELE After I moved in. MR STRYDOM On page 122 and 123 of the documents before you certain answers are provided to certain questions contained in the amnesty application. Do you confirm the correctness of the answers given? MR MBELE Yes I confirm. MR STRYDOM On page 124 you will find a request for further particulars, particulars asked by the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, and you'll find the answers on page 126 to page 128. Do you confirm the correctness of the answers? MR MBELE Yes I confirm. MR STRYDOM Have the answers been canvassed with you again and do you still stand by the correctness thereof? MR MBELE Yes. MR STRYDOM Whilst we at page 128 you make mention of a person with the name of Makuka, who is this Makuka? MR MBELE It's a friend of mine. MR STRYDOM Did he also stay in the kwaMadala Hostel? MR MBELE Yes. MR STRYDOM Was he also part of the attack on Boipatong? MR MBELE Yes. MR STRYDOM You stated in answer to the question no 6, your reply on page 128 "I remember seeing a person with the name of Makuka shoot a lady with a 9mm pistol. I saw that she was hit and fell to the ground." Do you know approximately where in Boipatong did this incident take place? MR MBELE I think it was in the settlement area in Slovo Park. MR STRYDOM In your affidavit on page 129 and 130 you state that you partook in the attack, did you also go to Slovo Park or the informal settlement section of Boipatong? MR MBELE We formed ourselves in a small group, I think 9 in number and we went into Slovo Park. MR STRYDOM Now before I can ask you about details about what happened at Slovo Park, I just want you to confirm you signature on page 130 of your affidavit. MR MBELE That's my signature Sir. MR STRYDOM Has this affidavit been canvassed with you again? MR MBELE Yes it was canvassed again. Did Mr Mkhize mention Boipatong at that stage? MR MBELE No. MR STRYDOM So the reference there to Boipatong, would that be correct or not? MR MBELE It's incorrect the name Boipatong. MR STRYDOM On that same page just a little bit lower down it reads "Eers op die 17de Junie 1992 toe ek by die stadion kom het ek gehoor 'n aanval op Boipatong gaan nou plaasvind." Is that correct? MR MBELE Yes. MR STRYDOM Before you moved to kwaMadala Hostel, were you shot? MR MBELE Yes. MR STRYDOM Who shot you? MR MBELE I don't want to commit myself, I don't know, but it was the comrades. MR STRYDOM I want to ask you more about the attack on Boipatong itself. When you entered Boipatong, were you in a specific group or not? MR MBELE Yes. MR STRYDOM You know who was leading this group? MR MBELE Yes. MR STRYDOM Who was that? MR MBELE Damarra. MR STRYDOM Now you testified a little bit earlier on that you broke up into a smaller group, I think you mentioned 9 people, do you still remember the names of the people who formed that group? MR MBELE I remember Makuka, Simon, Gose, and other men from the hostel. I just knew them by seeing them, I didn't know their names. MR STRYDOM What weapon did you have with you? MR MBELE 9mm. MR STRYDOM Where did you get that weapon from? MR MBELE I got it from Makuka. MR STRYDOM Was it a licensed firearm or not? MR MBELE It wasn't a licensed firearm. MR STRYDOM Did you use that firearm in Boipatong? MR MBELE Yes. MR STRYDOM Do you know if you killed any person by using that firearm in Boipatong? MR MBELE I would not say that there is a person that I killed, but I shot at people. MR STRYDOM Did you go into any houses in Boipatong? MR MBELE No. MR STRYDOM Did you break windows of any houses in Boipatong? MR MBELE No. MR STRYDOM Did you ...(intervention) MR LAX Can you just slow down a little bit Mr Strydom, I'm just struggling to keep up with you. MS SIGODI Sorry Mr Strydom I didn't get it, the last answer, did he say did he break any windows? MR STRYDOM His answer was no, I'll just repeat the question. Did you break windows of - personally you, did you personally break windows of any houses at Boipatong? MR MBELE No. MR STRYDOM Did you steal any items from people in Boipatong? MR MBELE No. MR STRYDOM More or less where in Boipatong were you when you fired those shots on people you didn't know if you hit? MR MBELE I was in the informal settlement and in the firms. MR STRYDOM If you say in the firms, what do you mean by that? MR MBELE I'm referring to in the vicinity of the firms next to the location. MR STRYDOM Apart from the shots you fired, did you hear other people firing shots? MR MBELE Yes. MR STRYDOM Did you see that other people fired shots? MR MBELE They shot but I don't know whether they hit someone. MR STRYDOM The leader of your group, Damarra Chonco, did you see that he fired shots? MR MBELE I saw him shooting, but it was in the township. MR STRYDOM With what kind of weapon? MR MBELE 1847. MR STRYDOM Do you know an person by the Andries Nosenga? MR MBELE No. MR STRYDOM An affidavit was handed to us, which purports to be an affidavit of Andries Nosenga, and I want to read a certain portion to you, and I want a comment. I refer to Exhibit ... MR LAX Sorry Mr Strydom, we haven't given it a number yet as far as I remember. MR STRYDOM Ja. MR LAX It will probably only handed in formally at a later stage. MR STRYDOM Yes. I will just read paragraph 4 of this document to you "When we got out of the hostel onto the road, we were picked up by a police Casspir driven by a white man whose name I don't know. In the hippo there was Shaga of the security branch; a white policeman known to me as Rooikop who had red hair; Peens and our driver. There were 14 or 15 IFP members inside the hippo. Others were walking alongside. Those that I remember who were in the hippo were, Katene, who had ordered us to get into the hippo; Reuben, Themba, Lucky, Makuka, and Dondo." Now the question I want to ask you is this reference of the name Dondo, are you also known as Dondo? MR MBELE That's correct. MR STRYDOM On the night of the 17th of June 1992 did you get into any hippo? MR MBELE No. MR STRYDOM Do you know a person with the name of Shaga? MR MBELE Yes I know him. MR STRYDOM Where do you know him from? MR MBELE He's a policeman, I knew as we were being arrested. MR STRYDOM Have you been arrested by Shaga? MR MBELE No. MR STRYDOM Has he arrested other people you know? MR MBELE Yes. MR STRYDOM Do you know a white policeman known as Rooikop? MR MBELE No. MR STRYDOM Do you know a person or a policeman with the name of Peens? MR MBELE Yes. MR STRYDOM Where do you know him from? MR MBELE I knew him from Flora Garden. MR STRYDOM Is Flora Garden the name of the Murder and Robbery Squad Unit in Vanderbijlpark? MR MBELE That's correct. MR STRYDOM Howcome that you know him? INTERPRETER Chairperson there was a little technical problem. MR STRYDOM The question is, from where or how did it come about that you know Peens? MR MBELE We were once arrested on our arrival at Flora Gardens. The people who knew him told me his name. MR STRYDOM Apart from the fact that he was the policeman who arrested people, did you have any dealings with him in the sense that you worked with him, if I can put it that way? MR MBELE No. MR STRYDOM According to you, on the night of the 17th of June 1992, was the police part of this attack? MR MBELE The police were not present. MR STRYDOM Did you see any white people with or without balaclavas present at any stage during the attack? MR MBELE I never saw white people at all. MR STRYDOM Can you thing of any reason why you would protect police or white people? MR MBELE No reason Sir. MR STRYDOM This person I've mentioned earlier on, Andries Nosenga, do you know him? MR MBELE Maybe I know him facially, but I do not know him when you refer to him by that name. MR STRYDOM If I give you the further information, would you be able to state if you know him? According to this document he's 23 years old, and is in prison presently serving a sentence of 16 years for murder at Maximum B Prison in Leeuwhof. He was convicted in February 1995. Do you have any knowledge of this? MR MBELE Maybe you're referring to Matanzema, yes I know that. MR STRYDOM Now this person Matanzema, did you see him on the night of the attack? MR MBELE No. MR STRYDOM After the attack, when you got back to the hostel, did you first go to the stadium or directly to your room? MR MBELE I went straight to my room. MR STRYDOM On the following day did you see that certain goods that came from Boipatong was burned? MR MBELE Yes, that's true. MR STRYDOM Did you assist in that process? MR MBELE No. MR STRYDOM Do you know who ordered the burning of the goods? MR MBELE I do not know who ordered the burning of the goods. MR STRYDOM What was the reason why you decided to go with the group to attack Boipatong? MR MBELE I did not live happily. If I wanted to go to Vereeniging or Vanderbijlpark, people were to be taken out of the taxis and be burned. When we were walking in Sharpeville, we would be chased after. Our lives were not nice at all. The people of Boipatong were always blocking us. MR STRYDOM According to you, who gave the instruction to attack Boipatong? MR MBELE I would say the people who lived there, and the reason being that the people harassed us and we were dying, and nothing was happening. The police did not even take care. MR STRYDOM Ja, but the question is, who gave the instruction to attack? MR LAX Sorry Mr Strydom, he thinks you're saying who gave the instruction to attack him and his fellow inmates, that's why he's given that answer. MR STRYDOM Who gave the instruction to attack Boipatong - the question is who gave the instruction to the residents of kwaMadala to attack Boipatong? MR MBELE I would say it's Damarra. MR STRYDOM I've got no further questions at this stage. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STRYDOM CHAIRPERSON Mr Berger, will you be - who's going to start that side? MR BERGER I'm going to start. CHAIRPERSON Would it be convenient if we take about 15 minutes break? MR BERGER That will be convenient yes, thank you. CHAIRPERSON We will take a 15 minute break and come back at 16h10. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION CHAIRPERSON May I remind you that you are still under oath to speak the truth. Do you understand that? JACK MBELE (s.u.o) MR MBELE That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Yes Mr Berger? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BERGER Thank you Chairperson. Mr Mbele you said that you could think of no reason why you would want to protect the police or why you would want to protect the whites involved in the attack on Boipatong. Do you know of two policemen by the name of, one was called Monare and the other policeman was Xaba, X-A-B-A? MR MBELE I do not know them. MR BERGER Well I can tell you that they gave evidence in which they implicated the police and they have both since been killed. My instructions are that they gave evidence during the Goldstone Commission hearing into the events at Boipatong, do you have any knowledge of that? MR MBELE No. MR BERGER You gave evidence that you were shot by the comrades. Is it correct that you went to hospital after this attack? MR MBELE That's correct. MR BERGER When you were in hospital, did you have a bullet removed from your left thigh? MR MBELE I was referring to the right leg, not the left leg. MR BERGER Did you ever have a bullet removed from your left thigh? MR MBELE I think so. MR BERGER When was that? MR MBELE I think it was around 1991. MR BERGER How many times have you been in hospital to have bullets removed from your legs? MR MBELE Three times. MR BERGER When was the first time? MR MBELE It was in 1991 when I was fighting with the comrades. MR BERGER And the second time? MR MBELE It was the same year, 1991. MR BERGER And the third time? MR MBELE That was when I got injured after the Boipatong incident. MR BERGER Was that shortly after the Boipatong incident that you were shot? MR MBELE I think so. MR BERGER You see, during your criminal trial you were asked at page 3393 - you were accused 64 were you not? MR MBELE That is correct. MR BERGER The Court asked you, at line 19 "Ek het vanoggend verstaan u is tweekeer geskiet?" Your answer was yes. You were then asked: "Die eerste keer, in watter been is u geskiet?" Your answer, the left. You were asked then: "Die tweede keer?" --- You said: "Die regterbeen." You were then asked by the Court, when were you in hospital for the second time, and your answer was in 1993, "... ek is nie seker van die datum nie." Now let me just get to the point, when you were in hospital the first time when you were shot in the left leg, that was on the 17th of August 1992. On that day a bullet was removed from your left thigh. So what I want to put to you is that the attacks that you are talking about took place after the attack on Boipatong, and not before. MR MBELE I agree with you when you say - yes, the left leg was shot after the Boipatong incident. MR BERGER And the right thigh was shot even later, according to your evidence at the criminal trial in 1993? MR MBELE I was shot twice on the right leg in 1991 and yet the other time. CHAIRPERSON Could you just repeat the answer. MR MBELE I say I was shot twice on the right leg, I was first shot before the incident of Boipatong, and I was shot another time after the incident, which was in 1993, that Mr Berger has referred to. CHAIRPERSON Was that on your right leg? MR MBELE That is correct. MR BERGER At your criminal trial, how many times did you say you had been shot, twice or three times? MR MBELE I do not remember how many times did I say I was shot. MR BERGER You mentioned that you were arrested once by Sergeant Peens. MR MBELE He did not arrest me. MR BERGER He was there when you were arrested, what were you arrested for? MR MBELE We were - it was being alleged that we were the hit-squad from kwaMadala Hostel. MR BERGER Is it correct that you were involved in criminal activities in the Sharpeville area? MR MBELE No. MR BERGER Were you friendly with a person by the name of Dennis Mofokeng? MR MBELE Yes. MR BERGER And you and he were involved in criminal activities in Sharpeville. As a result of that you fled to kwaMadala. MR MBELE I knew Dennis after I went to kwaMadala, and from then onwards he became my friend. MR BERGER Were you and Dennis accused of being involved in hit-squads operating from kwaMadala? MR MBELE Dennis was not involved, I was the only one being accused of that. MR BERGER You say that you never entered any houses and you never killed any people. MR MBELE Yes. MR BERGER According to the evidence of Mr Bujose, you entered a house on the corner of Shlube and Bafokeng Street. Would that be correct? MR MBELE That is not correct. MR BERGER According to Mr Maloi who was a state witness, you and others were seen coming out of a house with a duvet, a television set and a wall-clock. Would that be correct? MR MBELE That is not correct. MR BERGER In your criminal trial you said that you'd been shot in the upper leg, and you had been taken to hospital two weeks before - I beg your pardon, and two weeks before the 17th of June you were discharged. Is it correct that that incident that you were referring to was the incident which occurred after the attack on Boipatong? MR MBELE That is correct. MR BERGER Now the house on the corner of Shlube and Bafokeng Streets is house no 734 Bafokeng. In that house two people were killed, Mr Andries Manyeke, age 50, and Ms Lena Manyeke, age 47. MR LAX Sorry Mr Berger can you just give us the paragraph numbers just to help us, that you're referring to in your memo. MR BERGER I'm referring to the Annexure, and it's pages 14 and 15 of the Annexure, the last three pages of the document. MR LAX So it starts at the bottom of page 14, no 734? MR BERGER That is correct yes. MR LAX Thanks. MR BERGER And that house is on the corner of Bafokeng and Shlube Streets. Mr Manyeke was stabbed above his waist; he had back wounds; he was chopped in the back of the head, and he was also shot above his right eye. Ms Lena Manyeke was stabbed all over her body, her chest, her head, and there were too many stab wounds to count. Wasn't the state witness Bujose correct when he said that you entered that house, and doesn't it follow that you were part of a group of people who attacked and killed Andries and Lena Manyeke? MR MBELE I was not part of that group. MR BERGER You see, the other thing that is interesting is, is that according to Mr Bujose you emerged from a house, another house, carrying certain property. And very close to 734 is 722 Bafokeng Street, and in that house Matilda Shloebe was killed, Elizabeth Shloebe was injured, and Paw-Paw Shloebe was killed. But what's really interesting is what was stolen from that house. A TV set was stolen, and amongst other things, a duvet was also stolen. Two of the items which Mr Bujose - I beg your pardon, Mr Maloi said he saw you carrying out of that house, you and a group of other. Is this just co-incidental Mr Mbele? MR MBELE He made a big mistake that person. MR BERGER Are you saying you were not in the area of Bafokeng Street at all? MR MBELE You see, I do not know Boipatong very well when it comes to streets, but I did not get into the houses, he is making a mistake. MR BERGER Were you together with Sonny Michael Mkwanazi, in Boipatong? MR MBELE I only remember Makuka, Simon and Gose. MR LAX Sorry Mr Berger, would you just repeat the names, I didn't catch all of them when you asked the question. MR BERGER Mr Lax it's one person, his name is Sonny Michael Mkwanazi, he's applicant no 7. MR LAX Thank you. MR BERGER Are you saying that you might have been with him, you can't remember, or you were not with him? MR MBELE I am saying I did not encounter him where I was. MR BERGER And Timothy Stals Mazibuko, applicant no 5, were you with ... MR MBELE No. MR BERGER Is it correct that the three of you, applicant no 5 and applicant no 7 and yourself, are the three youngest members of the group of applicants? MR MBELE That is correct. MR BERGER And you're saying the three of you are not friends - were not friends at the time? MR MBELE We were friends at that time. MR BERGER Surely if you were friends, you would have gone to Boipatong - gone on the attack together? MR MBELE I did not know how the next person felt. You know, we are different when it comes to emotions. CHAIRPERSON No, no, no, the - what counsel is putting to you is that because you were friends, you must have gone to Boipatong together. MR MBELE I do not agree with him. MR BERGER What room were you staying in at kwaMadala Hostel? MR MBELE 2023. MR BERGER And what room was Timothy Mazibuko in? MR MBELE 2002. MR BERGER And Mr Mkwanazi, Sonny Mkwanazi? MR MBELE 2002 as well. MR BERGER Was your room close to their room? MR MBELE Yes, nextdoors. MR BERGER And when the signal came that you must go to the stadium that night, the night of the 17th, surely you went there together, you, Sonny and Timothy? MR MBELE No. MR BERGER Did you see them at the stadium? MR MBELE Yes, I saw them. MR BERGER Surely you went to stand with them? MR MBELE No. MR BERGER Why not? MR MBELE There was no reason for me to stand with them. MR BERGER Were you standing with other friends? MR MBELE I was just in a group of people, I would not say who was next to me. MR BERGER You were a very young man at the time, I take it that you were quite nervous about participating in the attack, or am I wrong? MR MBELE I was not nervous. MR BERGER So you never felt the need to go and associate yourself with people who you were friendly with? MR MBELE Not necessarily that, there was no need. But there was no reason for me to go and stand next to them, we were all inside the hostel. MR BERGER And when you left the hostel and you moved to Boipatong, did you move together with Timothy and Sonny? MR MBELE I would not say whether they also left. I did not see them, I saw the other men who stayed in the hostel. MR BERGER So are you telling the Committee that after you saw Sonny and Timothy at the stadium, you never saw them again from the time you left the stadium until the time you came back to kwaMadala? MR MBELE There is only one person I saw, that person is Stals. MR BERGER That's Timothy. MR MBELE That's him. MR BERGER Where did you see him again after the stadium? MR MBELE When we were approaching Boipatong I saw him. MR BERGER And after you had entered Boipatong, did you see him again? MR MBELE No. MR BERGER So it's your evidence that you entered Boipatong; you went to Slovo Park; you went back to kwaMadala - all the time you were with people who you didn't know very well, is that your evidence? MR MBELE I'm saying I knew three people and I was the fourth one, and other men from the hostel, I knew them but their names just went out of my mind. MR BERGER The three people who you knew, Makuka, Simon and Gose, were they your friends? MR MBELE Yes they were my friends. MR BERGER What is Makuka's full names? MR MBELE I only know his surname, his surname is Selayi. MR BERGER And where is he today? MR MBELE He died last year on the 30th of December. MR BERGER And Simon, what is his surname and where is he today? MR MBELE His surname is Molebatsi, he also died last year. MR BERGER Gose, what is his surname and where is he today? MR MBELE His surname if Mapondo, he also died in 1996. MR BERGER You were referred to the unsigned affidavit of Andries Nosenga, paragraph 4. The reference in that paragraph is made to Reuben. Do you know anyone by the name of Reuben? MR MBELE Yes. MR BERGER Would that be Tebogo Reuben Magubane, applicant no 3? MR MBELE That is correct. MR BERGER Themba, did you know any Themba who was part of the attack on Boipatong? MR MBELE Yes. MR BERGER How many Themba's did you know who were in the attack? CHAIRPERSON I'm sorry Mr Berger - did you see this Themba ...(indistinct) MR MBELE I do not understand you quite well Sir. He was present in Boipatong, but he has since died. MR BERGER Which Themba are you referring to? MR MBELE I'm referring to Themba Mabote. MR BERGER Were there other people by the name of Themba in the attacking group of Boipatong? MR MBELE I only knew that Themba. I do not know whether there were other Themba's in that group, I only knew this Themba. MR BERGER Did you know any person by the name of Lucky who was involved in the attack on Boipatong? MR MBELE No. CHAIRPERSON Sir the individual - you say the people in your group, there are only three that you knew by names, three I think you said? MR MBELE Those are the boys from the township. The other men who were in our company I do not know by names, but there was another one called Damarra Chonco. CHAIRPERSON Now the four boys from the townships that you've mentioned, including Damarra, they're all dead? MR MBELE That is correct. CHAIRPERSON There were other persons in the group that you only knew by sight? MR MBELE That is correct My Lord. CHAIRPERSON Are those individuals still alive? MR MBELE Madala was destroyed and we went into the township to look for alternative accommodation. I do not know whether they're still alive or not. MR BERGER Mr Mbele I'll ask you again, are you sure you don't know anybody by the name of Luck, who was present in Boipatong on the night of the attack? MR MBELE When we went to Boipatong I did not see Lucky, but on the 18th I heard him talking, and it looked like he was present according to what he was saying. MR BERGER Who is this person called Lucky, what is his surname? MR MBELE It's Sonny Michael Mkwanazi. MR BERGER Your friend? MR MBELE Yes. CHAIRPERSON Is Sonny Michael Mkwanazi also known as Lucky? MR MBELE That is correct My Lord. MR BERGER He's known as Lucky Stikinyao, isn't that right? MR MBELE That is correct. MR BERGER Makuka, you've already told us, he was with you. MR MBELE That is correct. MR BERGER And Dondo is you. MR MBELE Yes, that's me. MR BERGER Are you sure that you were not in a group of people moving towards Boipatong, which included Tebogo Magubane, Themba Mabote, Sonny Mkwanaze, Makuka, and yourself Dondo? MR MBELE I would not say I was not in their group, but I want to explain this to you Mr Berger ... MR BERGER Yes, I'm listening. MR MBELE The people that you have mentioned their names, when we left the hostel from, when we left for Boipatong we were in a large group, and we went into the township still being in this large group. When the shooting began between ourselves and the Defence Units, we managed to chase after them. That is when we started forming our squads, but we were not more than 15 in number, we were about 11. This is the group that included Makuka, Vusi, Simone, myself and the other gentlemen that I've referred to. CHAIRPERSON Now who is Vusi? MR MBELE I was saying Gose. MR BERGER You see, according to the state witness Majose, Sonny Michael Mkwanazi or Lucky, was also seen at this house on the corner of Shlube and Bafokeng Streets. Are you saying that it's just co-incidence that the two of you are friends; that two of you are referred to in the affidavit of Andries Mosenga; that two of you are identified by the state witness Bujose as having been in that house at the corner of Shlube and Bafokeng Street, all of this is just co-incidence, it never happened? MR MBELE They've made a big mistake, such a thing never happened. MR PRIOR Mr Chairman may I enquire, Exhibit J reflects the houses along the various streets in Boipatong. I've been informed that the houses coloured in an orange koki pen were damaged. Those marked with a pink koki were people who were killed, and in green where people were injured. Some houses have all three colour markings. My Exhibit J indicates the house at Bafokeng and Shlube, the corner thereof, as just having an orange coloration or code. My learned friend has referred to that house. If we're referring to the same thing, as where two people were in fact killed. Can I just ask for clarification please Mr Chairman? MR BERGER My learned friend is correct, the map is not accurate, it should also have a pink spot, and ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON As I understand the position, it turned out last time that the colouring on this map is not accurate, and I think attempts were going to be made to ensure that we'll have a bigger map which will truly reflect the position. MR PRIOR Thank you Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON The house that's been referred to, this is the house that is marked with, is it a cross? MR BERGER That is the house, yes Chairperson. Mr Mbele the day after the attack on Boipatong, did you discuss what you had done, with your friends Sonny and Timothy? MR MBELE Yes, there were many of us and each one was relating his contribution or what he did. MR BERGER And what did Sonny say he had done? MR MBELE He told me that he broke windows at houses. MR BERGER According to the state witness Mr Maloi, he says - or said, that the day after the attack Sonny Mkwanazi, who was accused no 65, said that he had raped somebody in Boipatong. Did he tell you that? MR MBELE I did not hear such a thing. MR BERGER Did anybody tell you that they had raped or sexually assaulted any of the women of Boipatong, or did you hear from others that they had heard that people had been raped in Boipatong? MR MBELE If I remember well, I heard that in Pretoria during the court proceedings. It was Gose, when he said he saw Lucky raping. MR BERGER Where - did he say where he saw Lucky or Mr Mkwanazi raping, which part of Boipatong were they in when he saw Lucky raping? MR MBELE I do not remember. MR BERGER Who else did you hear of who had raped women or sexually assaulted women in Boipatong? MR MBELE I never heard anyone thereafter about the sexual assault of women, or even the rape of women. MR BERGER How did you enter Boipatong, which street did you go along? MR MBELE I do not know Boipatong well, there is a tarred road in one of the streets, that is the only street that has tar. We used the last street towards the right. MR BERGER At that time you were in Damarra Chonco's group, is that right? MR MBELE We were still together. MR BERGER When did you divide up into groups and where was that? MR MBELE When we saw the Self Defence Units that is at the tar road inside the township. There is a gravel street that crosses that tarred road, that is where the group split in two. MR BERGER This splitting into two, was it spontaneous or was it pre-arranged? MR MBELE According to what I realised on that day, it was a spontaneous thing. MR BERGER Chairperson I intend traversing fairly quickly what this witness did in Boipatong, but I don't know if that's going to take longer than I anticipate and I see that it's already past 5 o'clock. I don't know if you want to adjourn at this stage. CHAIRPERSON Would this be a convenient point to interrupt a cross-examination? MR BERGER Yes it would. CHAIRPERSON Very well, you referred to the evidence of Mr Maloi and the trial relating to what Sonny said he had done. What is the page - do you have a page reference for that? MR BERGER Chairperson the reference I have is at page 309 of bundle 2 of the papers before you. CHAIRPERSON That is the extract from the judgment? MR BERGER That is correct. At page 3757 of the judgment, dealing with accused no 65, who is Mr Mkwanazi, the learned judge deals with the evidence of Mr Maloi and speaks about the rape there. CHAIRPERSON Very well. At this point we will adjourn for the day. We will reconvene tomorrow morning at 09h00. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS