amntrans AMNESTY HEARING 1998-08-18 BLOEMFONTEIN 2 MANGALISEKILE BHANI WESSELSBRON SUPERMARKET ATTACK https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=52816&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1998/98081721_blm_bloem2.htm ON RESUMPTION MR STEENKAMP Indicated in the bundle is this ...(intervention). CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) His application appears in the bundle on page 7 to 9. CHAIRPERSON Have we got a new list? (Inaudible - mike not working). Bhani will be No 1? Bhani will be No 1, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON ...(indistinct). No 2 will be Stanley Tshoane. Mr Chairman, I think if you want the order of them, how are they going to give evidence, Mr Chairman, I can do that, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON I just want to get some certainty about the names of the applicants. Is, for example, Mr Raymond Leklapo Mpashlele one of the applicants? Mr Chairman, he's not one of the applicants, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON He's not? Yes, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON ...(indistinct)? Yes, Mr Chairman, also is not an applicant, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON ...(indistinct)? Sorry, Mr Chairman, we have seven applicants, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Seven. Well then you'd better give us their names, you've got various lists, we have set down before us one list of five names. Mr Chairman, the only way I can give you, if you can take the affidavits of Bhani, the affidavits, it's going to be in that order, Mr Chairman, with the exception of Danny Sibande, who is not an applicant. The affidavits, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Shall we take them in the order they are in the bundle? In the affidavit, Mr Chairman, the supplementary affidavits, signed ...(intervention). CHAIRPERSON Can you give us the paragraph in the affidavit that you're referring to? Mr Chairman, it's the affidavit, this one, by Bhani, they are going to appear in that order, in that fashion, Mr Chairman, in the affidavit, in the heading of the affidavit, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON In the order they appear in the heading? Correct, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON That is Bhani, Ngesi, Khotle ...(intervention). Tshoane. CHAIRPERSON Tshoane, Morrison, Mazete, Mohape ...(intervention). MR STEENKAMP And not Sibande. Not Sibande, Mr Chairman. MR MALAN Why is the name of Sibande on the affidavit? Mr Chairman, initially I thought that he was an applicant also, but it transpired that he has no - he did not apply for amnesty, Mr Chairman. MR MALAN Thank you. CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) solves one. The second matter that I'd like to clarify is that we have been given a copy of Mr Morrison's application, and we've also been given one of Mr Mazetske's, which I've just discovered, and what is the position about Mr Mohape? CHAIRPERSON Does that make it a valid application? Mr Chairman, as I indicated that we are in the hands of the Committee, but when I consulted with him, Mr Chairman, last weekend in prison, he was transferred from Kroonstad, he told me that he did apply for amnesty regarding this matter, and it was on that basis that I assisted him in applying and drafting the affidavit, that he had made the application, and in that ... (intervention). CHAIRPERSON If you look at his affidavit, he said he completed the form in the presence of the regional chair-person of the PAC and handed the form to him, who undertook to hand it in at the TRC office, and he's always been under the bona fide impression that it is before the Committee for consideration. Now I have been carefully informed of the date and time of this hearing, has he received correspondence from the Amnesty Committee or the TRC, as an applicant? UNKNOWN SPEAKER Mr Chairman, I stand only as an implicated party, only as an implicated party, Mr Chairman. MR MALAN CHAIRPERSON He doesn't say he applied in 1995. MR MALAN "Whilst in custody, I completed the prescribed form applying for amnesty." And he says in 1995. CHAIRPERSON Where? Paragraph 6, first sentence, Mr Chairman. MR MALAN That probably refers to a further indemnity application. Mr Chairman, I won't be in a position to say it was referring to further indemnity, Mr Chairman, the impression I got at that particular point in time, also myself, I must confess I didn't pick it up at that particular point in time, I took it for granted when he said that he filled and he completed the forms, maybe he was making a mistake about the year in which - but he was adamant that he did fill the application form. CHAIRPERSON Well, we have had numerous other people who filled in the indemnity form and thought it was an amnesty form, but he also goes on in his affidavit, in paragraph 8, to say that it got lost or misplaced either by Lekotze or a person in the employ of the TRC. Well surely we should at least have had an affidavit from Lekotze saying, "I lodged the form with the TRC". He, the applicant now says Lekotze may have lost it. CHAIRPERSON It seems to me that it would be improper for us, on the information before us, to say there is a valid application before us, as has been pointed out, the date appears to be wrong and there's nothing to confirm that the application was ever lodged. This is not a case, that we have had others, where the prison authorities have taken custody of the applications and have forwarded them and they have been mislaid, but this is not so, this is a member of his own political organisation who was entrusted with it. I do not, however, wish to waste unnecessary time, and it seems to me, subject to the agreement of the members of my Committee, that we should hear the application on the basis that we do not accept that there is a valid application before us, that there is an onus on the applicant to obtain further information as to whether an application was in fact ever lodged, and to supply us with such information. If that is done, we will then treat the application as a valid application and have regard to the evidence we have heard. If it is not done, and I think there will have to be a time limit, we will dismiss the application on the basis that there was no valid application before us. Do you agree with that? I agree with that, Mr Chairman, thank you. MR STEENKAMP No objectoin Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Right, it will be recorded that in the case of Paulus Moshlolo Mohape, there is, at the present time, no satisfactory evidence or information before us indicating that an application was ever lodged in compliance with the terms of the Act. We are, however, prepared to hear the evidence of the applicant, together with all the other applicants today, to avoid unnecessary waste of time and perhaps duplication, but we hear it on the basis that this does not constitute an acceptance of the application that has now been put before us, which was completed on the 5th of August of this year, and that it is incumbent upon the applicant to investigate the matter further and to put information before us to show that there was a valid application entered into by him, this he may well have done in his affidavit, but furthermore that this application was thereafter lodged with the Amnesty Committee or the TRC in terms of the provisions of the Act. And it is also, I think, necessary to put a time limit on this, that this must be done within one month of today. If this is done, we will consider the application, if it is not done, we will dismiss the application on the basis that no proper application has been made in terms of the Act. Mr Mbandazayo, who appears for the applicant, has agreed that this would be the correct form to follow, and we accordingly propose to do so. Thank you, Mr Chairman, may the applicant be sworn in. CHAIRPERSON Oh, sorry, the next stage, the Committee is constituted as it was yesterday, but would Mr Mbandazayo please put himself on record? Thank you, Mr Chairman. My name is Lunga Mbandazayo, I'm appearing on behalf of the applicants in this matter. Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Mr Steenkamp, you are again appearing for the victims, are you, and as the leader of the evidence? MR STEENKAMP That's correct, Mr Chairman, honourable members. CHAIRPERSON Would you stand please? MANGALISEKILE BHANI (sworn states) Mr Bhani, you have an affidavit in front of you, which is also in front of the Committee, before the Committee, do you confirm that the affidavit which is before the Committee was made by yourself and you abide by its contents? MR BHANI That's correct. Mr Chairman, I won't go through, I will take it that the Committee have read the affidavit, but I'll go to paragraph 10 of the affidavit, unless the Committee has any point which it wants to raise before the paragraph preceding that one? CHAIRPERSON No, carry on. Thank you, Mr Chairman. "I left Umtata with Sibande to Welkom, where I met Abel Khotle, who took me to Wesselsbron and arranged accommodation for myself. Abel Khotle was the regional commander of the area." Now, Mr Bhani, can you expunciate(?) and tell the Committee, where did you meet Khotle exactly in Welkom and where did he arrange your accommodation in Wesselsbron, for the benefit of the Committee? MR BHANI I met Mr Khotle at G Hostel, where he used to stay. We left for Wesselsbron at Sherman's house, who was working for the PAC, so I got accommodation. Do you still know the name of the chairman of the PAC in Wesselsbron, who gave you accommodation? MR BHANI It was Shermi. Now ...(intervention). CHAIRPERSON Sherne, was it? Can you come again, Mr Bhani? Can you repeat the name? MR BHANI It was Shermi. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, before you go on, paragraph 10, Sibande, is that Daniso Sibande? MR BHANI Yes. Yes, that's him. Can I proceed, Mr Chairman? CHAIRPERSON Certainly. Can you tell the Committee, when you were provided this accommodation by Shermi, the chairman of the PAC, did he know your mission in Wesselsbron? MR BHANI He wouldn't know. Or did he know that who you are, did he know who you are? MR BHANI Yes, he knew my name, he knew exactly who I was, he knew that I was an APLA member. Can you give the Committee the name that you used when you were in Wesselsbron? MR BHANI My name was Sipho at Wesselsbron. Thank you. Now, Mr Chairman, I will proceed to paragraph 11, if the Committee has no further questions. MR MALAN Sorry, we have questions. The question was put whether he knew your name, Mr Bhani, whether he knew you, you said he knew your name, your name was Sipho, and he did know then that you were an APLA member. Did he know anything about your rank or status? MR BHANI He didn't know anything about my rank, but he knew that I was an APLA member. Did he know that you had any mission? MR BHANI No, he didn't know about my mission. Why did he think that you came to Wesselsbron? Sorry, Mr Chairman, I think there's a problem. Can you increase your volume? We don't hear. Can you hear? MR BHANI No, I don't hear the interpreter. He does not hear the interpreter very well. MR BHANI Yes, I can hear now. MR BHANI Mr Khotle was a regional commander, he knew everything that was happening in that area. He knew exactly where I was to be deployed, and I would do area assessment and I would detect whatever, whenever it was necessary. Did he know in advance of your presence, that you would be coming to Wesselsbron, is that what you're telling us? MR BHANI Whom are you talking about? I'm talking about Mr Khotle. MR BHANI As a regional commander, when I moved from Umtata, I didn't even know that I was going to Wesselsbron, but he knew that he's the one who would receive me and deploy me somewhere. Who took you to Wesselsbron then, if you didn't know that you were going there? MR BHANI Mr Khotle, as a regional commander, is the one who received me there, he knew where he was going to deploy me, I didn't even know that I was going to Wesselsbron, but he is the one who deployed me there at Wesselsbron. Mr Mbandazayo, I hope you have my question, I'm not sure whether the applicant understands the question. If you could please lead him on why did he go to Wesselsbron, on whose instructions, how did he land there if he didn't know he was going to Wesselsbron? CHAIRPERSON Khotle took him there. No, no, Sibande took him there. CHAIRPERSON Sibande took him to Welkom, where he met Khotle. Thank you, sorry then it's my misunderstanding, you should have helped me earlier then, Chair. Thank you, Mr Chairman. Now we'll proceed, Mr Chairman, then to paragraph 11 "I made reconnaissance of the area, and after I identified the target, I gave a report to the regional commander for him to seek approval from the Director of Operations, or for him to give an order for the execution of the operation." MR BHANI I inspected the place. When I was inspecting the place, I realised that there was, they close at about 9:00 in the evening, there are people who normally buy there who were members of AWB and including SAP, that's how I identified this place as a target, then I gave the report to the regional commander that I have identified a target. Therefore, I wanted him to approve, to go to the Director of Operations to approve. CHAIRPERSON Can you tell me how you identified shoppers as members of the AWB? MR BHANI It's easy, because of their khaki uniform and their big hats like the cowboy hats and they were armed. Some were armed with two firearms. So it was quite easy to identify them. CHAIRPERSON Did they come into the shop dressed like that? MR BHANI Yes. Can I proceed, Mr Chairman? CHAIRPERSON Yes. "I was made to believe that the approval was given by the Director of Operations. An order was given to attack the target." Now, what gave you the impression that the order was approved by the Director of Operations? MR BHANI It is because I heard that from the regional commander, who was my superior. Now, last sentence "I was assisted by George Thabang Mazete to draw up the map and plan of the target." Can you explain that to the Committee, how did that happen? MR BHANI George Mazete is a person who was recruited by myself to be the member of the taskforce, because I wanted it to be easy to get him when necessary. It was appropriate for him to be there when we are doing the reconnaissance. It was also good for him to get experience on how to do some of the things. CHAIRPERSON Where did you know him from? MR BHANI I met him there at Wesselsbron. As I was doing this area assessment when I arrived there, I got to know people and I could see who are the people who were qualified to be the members of the taskforce, so that whenever it is necessary for us to get a person whenever we need some reinforcement, we knew whom to consult. Are you saying he was a member of the public at Wesselsbron? MR BHANI No, he was also a member of the organisation, the one that I belonged to. Where did you learn this? INTERPRETER Could the speaker please repeat the question? Where did you learn that he was a member of the organisation, because you only said you met with him Wesselsbron? Who told you he was a member of the organisation? MR BHANI I used to see him wearing the T shirt of the organisation, and even in meetings, he would be present and he was one of the people who were participating during the debates and the discussions. Did Mazete know that when you asked him to assist you in drawing up the map and making the reconnaissance, did he know that this place is going to be attacked? MR BHANI No, he didn't know. Mr Chairman, if there are no questions on that paragraph, I want to move to paragraph 12 "Sebinzile came with arms and ammunition, and he was accompanied by Khotle when he brought the arms and ammunition. The arms consisted of five R4's, one .38 revolver, .32 revolver, two rifle grenades, two hand grenades, one F1 and two M26 grenades." Can you tell the Committee, when these arms were brought to you, were you told where these arms were coming from? MR BHANI Yes, as the commander, I was supposed to know where they were coming from. Tell the Committee where they were coming from? MR BHANI They were coming from Umtata. Do you know how do they come from Umtata to Wesselsbron? MR BHANI As I was not there, I don't know how they came from Umtata or what happened, I only know that I got a report that they were from Umtata. Mr Chairman, I move to paragraph 13 "I took one R4 and handed the rest to Khotle. The other comrades were staying in Welkom." Now can you tell the Committee, why did you take an R4 and you gave the rest to Khotle? MR BHANI Yes, I was alone, I couldn't take all the arms with me, I could only take one and then others were to be handed to the Africans, so that if anything happens, they were not with me, all of them. "On the 3rd July 1993, I decided that it will be a suitable day for the attack, as I established during my reconnaissance of the target that members of the AWB and security forces liked to linger around the supermarket and stay there chatting during Fridays and Saturday evenings." Now, can you tell the Committee with whom did you decided that this will be a suitable day for the attack on the supermarket? MR BHANI I took this decision with the regional commander. Paragraph 15 "We were a unit of five, myself, Sebinzile, Ngesi, Sibande, all of us armed with R4's and in addition Sibande having a grenade, and Stelitzo Hale, the driver, unarmed." Now my question will be, can you elaborate on Sebinzile and Sibande to the Committee, because the other one you mentioned, they are the applicants, can you tell the Committee about Sebinzile and and Sibande? MR BHANI Sebinzile passed away in 1994. Sibande, I don't know where he is, but they were the people who were there, together with Ngesi. Now, paragraph 16 "The other comrades came from Welkom with arms on the day of the operation, and they arrived in Wesselsbron around half past eight. I briefed them for the first time about the operation and it was easy for me, because all of them were familiar with the target. The target was closing at 21:00, at nine o'clock, and we had to rush before they close." Now, can you tell the Committee about your briefing of the other members of the unit? MR BHANI When they arrived, I told them about the target, I told them that we're going to attack Wesselsbron Supermarket. They then knew that the Wesselsbron Supermarket was in front of the taxi rank, it was easy for them to identify or to know the target I was talking about. Now, paragraph 17:- "According to the plan, I was to lead the attack and others will follow. Myself, Ngesi and Sebinzile were to enter the supermarket..." ...(intervention). CHAIRPERSON Just before you proceed there, on paragraph 16 still, when did the other comrades coming from Welkom, did get instructions to come to Wesselsbron, and how did they get instructions? MR BHANI They got instructions from the regional commander, because it was myself and the regional commander who knew the target, they received a message from the regional commander that they would meet me in Wesselsbron and I would brief them and tell them about the target. Thank you, Mr Chairman. "According to the plan, I was to lead the attack and others would follow. Myself, Ngesi and Sebinzile were to enter the supermarket and Sibande would be at the door. When we were inside the supermarket, I ordered the comrades to shoot and after that we took the money." Now, Mr Bhani, I want you to take the Committee through what happened when you entered the supermarket, give them a picture, all of us were not there, you were there, give them a picture as to what actually took place when you entered the supermarket at Wesselsbron? MR BHANI We stopped the car in front of the supermarket. I was the first person to enter the supermarket. When I was at the door, I met a woman. I then grabbed this woman and took her inside. I told them to lift their hands, all of them, and they did so, and other comrades came in. I then told them to shoot. After that, I told them to take money. We then withdraw. You told the Committee that you gave an order to open fire, is there any other person who was giving order, except yourself, regarding what is supposed to take place inside the supermarket? MR BHANI No, there was nobody else who was giving order there, except myself, Bhani, I was the one giving the order about what should be done. Now, can you tell the Committee, do you know how much money did you manage to get at the supermarket? MR BHANI We got R4 000,00 in cash and some cheques. We then burnt the cheques and we surrendered the money to the regional commander. CHAIRPERSON Did you say you banked the cheques? Burnt? Sorry. MR BHANI Yes, we burnt the cheques. Now, paragraph 18 ...(intervention). CHAIRPERSON Before you go on, how many other people went into the supermarket? You've said yourself, Ngesi and Sebinzile were to enter, did anybody else enter? MR BHANI Sibande was standing at the door. He was looking for something that would come - we were three of us inside, it was myself, Sebinzile and Ngesi, there was no-one else who entered the supermarket. CHAIRPERSON What happened to the comrades from Welkom? MR BHANI We shot there and took money. CHAIRPERSON What happened to the comrades who came, the armed comrades who came from Welkom, who you instructed about the target? MR BHANI I don't understand the question. CHAIRPERSON You have told us that, and I'm going back to paragraph 16 "The other comrades from Welkom with the arms on the day of the operation, and they arrived at 8:30. I briefed them for the first time on the target and they were all familiar with the target. It closed at 9:00 so we had to rush before they closed." Do you understand all that from your own affidavit? MR BHANI Yes, they arrived. CHAIRPERSON Now what happened to these armed comrades who had come from Welkom to join you, when they got to the target, when you got to the target? MR BHANI Nothing happened to them, because when they arrived, I told them about the target. After that we took a car and then we went to this target. When we got there I was the first person to enter, and then I told the people inside to hold their hands and the other comrades came in, I gave them the order to shoot, we took money, after that we withdrew. Exactly what do you think happened to them? CHAIRPERSON Are you not prepared to tell us what the comrades from Welkom did? Chairman, may I just ask this question to the applicant, Sebinzile, Ngesi, Sibande and Tshoane, were they from Welkom? MR BHANI Yes. Sebinzile, Ngesi, Sibande and Stanley were the ones from Welkom. I think that ...(intervention). CHAIRPERSON Were they the comrades from Welkom? MR BHANI Yes. CHAIRPERSON Were there no other people from your area, was there only you? Were you the only people from Wesselsbron, were you the only person from Wesselsbron? MR BHANI Yes. CHAIRPERSON Now what were all these weapons for then? Were they kept at - where were they kept? As I understood, they were given to you? Mr Chairman, if I may come in, I think he indicated that he took only one firearm and the regional commander returned with the other ones to Welkom. CHAIRPERSON No, he didn't say Welkom. Well, he did not say Welkom, Mr Chairman, but he only took one firearm. I asked him why did he take one firearm, he said he was only one, so they have to keep the other ones, so that if anything happens, he's only caught with only one firearm. I think that was his testimony. CHAIRPERSON Okay. Before you proceed to the next paragraph, you said you entered, you grabbed the woman, told the people to put up their hands, the others entered, you ordered them to shoot. Was that planned in advance, the shooting? MR BHANI Yes. Did they shoot all the people present in the supermarket? MR BHANI Five people died, three of them were injured. How many people were there inside the supermarket at the time? MR BHANI I did not get a chance to count them. Were they many? MR BHANI I think it's this five plus three, five of them died and three of them passed away, though I did not get a chance to count them. Okay. So there were no other people in the supermarket at the time? MR BHANI It's obvious that there were no other people, because if they were there, they would also be injured. No, I wasn't there, but that's exactly what I wanted to find out. Thank you. Now, paragraph 18 "We retreated to Mnyagene Location and Sabone and the driver went to Welkom." Now, can you tell the Committee where did you retreated at Mnyagene Location and who was left behind? MR BHANI We went to a place where I was residing. Sibande and Stanley left for Welkom. No-one was left behind at the supermarket after that. Now, are you telling the Committee that Ngesi and Sebinzile did not go back to Welkom with Sibande and Tshoane? MR BHANI I'm saying Tshoane and Sibande left for Welkom. Sebinzile and Ngesi were left with me at Wesselsbron, Mnyagene Location, Wesselsbron's Mnyagene Location. I'll go to the last sentence ...(intervention). Why? Would you just explain why they were left with you? MR BHANI We went to give the DLP the firearms. After that, we went together to meet the regional commander. Is he not in Welkom? MR BHANI Who? The regional commander. MR BHANI The regional commander was in Welkom. Did I understand you that Ngesi and Sebinzile did not go to Welkom, they stayed with you in Wesselsbron? MR BHANI Yes, after the operation, it's only Stanley and Sibande, I was left with Sebinzile and Ngesi at Wesselsbron. And the weapons? MR BHANI Yes. So when did you take the weapons to the regional commander? MR BHANI We didn't take the firearms to the regional commander, we took them to George Mazete, we met the regional commander later and we gave him the report and the money, the report about the operation and the money. Thank you. Thank you, Mr Chairman, I think you also covered the last paragraph, or the last sentence in paragraph 18, now I'll proceed to paragraph 19 "Sibande, Ngesi, Sebinzile and Khotle went to Transkei, but Khotle went to Transkei after arranging accommodation for myself in Kroonstad." MR BHANI As a regional commander, he knew his area, he had some people that he used to contact with and the same people who would help him whenever he needed some help. What made him to go back to Transkei, I was the person who was going to take over the Free State, I was going to be the regional commander. Now, did you take over the aim as a regional commander eventually? MR BHANI No, I didn't take over, because we withdrew and we went back to Transkei, and when we were making those arrangements, we realised that a lot of people have been arrested, then I was not in a position to go back to the area. Now, finally, can you tell the Committee the reason why you attacked Wesselsbron Supermarket? MR BHANI The aim was to fund-raise, because we didn't have financial resources. As we were trained soldiers, we had to do everything ourselves, so that we could be able to continue with the struggle. You know that people lost their lives in the process. What do you say to that? In the supermarket, persons in the supermarket, people lost their lives, so what do you say to that? MR BHANI Yes, I know that people died there. All I'm saying is this, in the war people die. If we, in that type of a situation, the conditions that were prevailing at the time, it was obvious that the people would die and it wouldn't surprise anyone, because even ourselves, our country was taken by the shed of blood, we were forced to get back our country, our land, with blood, by shedding of blood. Is there anything you want to add to what you have already told the Committee regarding the incident at Wesselsbron? MR BHANI Yes. We are here today, we are living, we have democracy because of the missions of APLA as an organisation, as they were pressuring the boers to take note at our demands and the negotiations that were taking place at Kempton Park. The PAC was also involved in the negotiations. That also pressurised the boers to take notice of what was happening. That is why today we are living like this, it is because of those pressures. That is all, Mr Chairman. In your application, you say that you went to kill there because there would be AWB people and SA police members. Now on this day when you committed this act, did you see any policemen or SAP people, or AWB people when you got to the supermarket? MR BHANI It might happen that they were there, but they were un-uniformed, maybe they were un-uniformed. But as a trained soldier, didn't you think it necessary to look out specifically for those people? MR BHANI It was not important to us to look out for those people whether they were AWB or whatever, it was not important for us, as APLA members we didn't have soft targets and hard targets, even if the AWB people were not there, those who were there were the right people to be shot at. I understand that, but the thing is, from your application, the reason why you identified that particular supermarket is because it was patronised by AWB and SAP people. So if that was the main reason for having identified that particular target, I would have reasoned that it would be necessary at least that before you launch an attack, you see if these people that you used to identify the target were there, because in that, in fact you could have gone to kill anyone, you could have gone to - I mean it wouldn't have even been necessary to do a reconnaissance and identify a particular target. Why I'm asking you is because of your application, because you identified that particular target because it was patronised by AWB and SAP. Now I want to know why you didn't look or deem it necessary to check if there were AWB or SAP people on that day? MR BHANI In our plan, even if they were not there, we were going to shoot anyone who was in the shop, as long as they were white, so that, they were the people who were actually benefitting from the old government, the oppressive government, because if they were innocent, they would exert pressure to the government that the people should vote, everyone should vote and we should be given a chance to vote and be part and parcel in the decision-making of the country. CHAIRPERSON You see you said in your application that you were told to go and kill those people as there were AWB and SA Police Force members in the supermarket. Do you remember saying that in your application? MR BHANI I remember writing it down on my application, but it's not detailed, today I'm giving you full details about that matter, so that it should be clear to you. CHAIRPERSON And who gave you the instructions to do this? MR BHANI The person who gave us instruction to do this, it was the regional commander, who got his instruction from the Director of Operations. CHAIRPERSON And who is that? MR BHANI That was Mpashlele. CHAIRPERSON Raymond Leklapa Mpashlele? MR BHANI Yes. CHAIRPERSON Did he instruct you to go to this place? MR BHANI He is the one who issued that instruction to the regional commander to further issue another instruction to us to continue with the mission. Thank you, Mr Chairman. Sir, the view of the victims is that your application, the basis for your application, does not, in any event, in any sense, have a political motive, your actions at that day was indiscriminate shooting of business people in Wesselsbron. Do you have any reaction to that? MR BHANI Whoever is saying that has got the right to say so, because they were enjoying the wealth of our country. He or she's got the right to say so, because that actually sabotaged his or her capitalism, and they were not actually feeling what we were feeling as the people of this land. Did you establish before this incident or during your planning incident whether or not any of the people in the shop are business people, or in any event members of a political party or not, because I can tell you now that if necessary the victims will come and state that neither any of them ever belonged to any political party? MR BHANI If they were not affiliated in any of the political organisations, even if they were not affiliated, but the fact remains the government belonged to them, they were governing the country, and if they could see that what the government was doing to us was wrong, they were supposed to take action and oppose whatever that was being done by the government, to stand up and tell the government that this is wrong, because they would be affected by the consequences. Just for clarity's sake, Sir, am I right in saying the people, when you entered the shop, nobody resisted you and nobody was armed, am I right? MR BHANI I don't know if the people there were unarmed or armed, because we didn't get a chance to search them personally. But when you gave the order that they must lie down, all of them did that, is that correct, they didn't resist you, am I right? MR BHANI I didn't tell them to lie down, I told them to lift up their hands. And did they do that? MR BHANI Yes. And then afterwards you gave the order that the shooting must "maar" start, is that right, after the incident you gave the order, the shooting must start? MR BHANI Yes. Was this policy - was what you did in that shop, was that part of PAC policy, to shoot people after they lifted their arms and they basically did what you asked, was that part and parcel of PAC policy? MR BHANI It says the white man is the one who is oppressing us, and I grew under those circumstances, so even if he has lifted his arms or not, you've got to kill him, so that his government could feel the pressure and see that the government's own people are dying, therefore they can do something about that. Maybe I've missed that answer, but can you just explain to me, how would the killing of these innocent people benefit your political cause as members of APLA at that stage? MR BHANI We were going to get liberation, the one that the people are talking about today. What APLA was fighting for was liberation. APLA was aiming at getting liberation. What was your main focus that day, to kill people or to rob them, what was your focus that day? MR BHANI The two of them goes hand in hand. We were not getting financial assistance from anywhere. As well-trained people, we had to fund-raise ourselves, so that we can continue with the struggle, we could continue with the struggle, because we solely depended on ourselves. But surely, Sir, you could have taken the money and leave, it was totally unnecessary to kill those people, wouldn't you agree, because that's what the victims are saying? MR BHANI Yes, according to the victims, there was no reason for us to kill, but to us there was a reason to kill. Were you instructions the same, that you actually must go there and kill, is that what your instructions were, from your commander? INTERPRETER Can you please repeat your question? What exactly were your instructions, Sir, must you go there and kill, is that what your instructions were from your regional commander, or what exactly was the instructions? MR BHANI The instruction was to kill and take money. May I just, on this point, if I understood you correctly, and just correct me if I'm wrong, you were saying you identified the target after your reconnaissance, you made the plan, the map was drawn with the assistants, then you approached the regional commander, who from the Director of Operations, as you understood it, approved a plan that you submitted, is that correct? MR BHANI Please repeat your question, Sir. My question is, did you indeed get instructions, or did you get approval for a plan that you decided upon? MR BHANI As I made reconnaissance, I told him that I identified the target, he then went to the Director of Operations for approval, and he was given an order that we should continue with the mission. He then came to me and gave me that instruction. That's exactly how I understood - that's how I understood your evidence. My question is, when you made the reconnaissance and gave your plan to the regional commander for him to seek approval, did you tell him that you would be hitting Wesselsbron Supermarket, you would be killing all the whites there and that you would be taking money, that that was the plan, did you tell him all that? MR BHANI I told him that there were members of the AWB who frequented the supermarket, I told him that way, that there were members of the AWB and the police who used to go to that supermarket. In my initiative, I have a right to use, or to use my powers in the field. MR MALAN Are you saying that you did not need any approval to shoot or to rob, that you could do as of your own authority? MR BHANI As I've already said, I told him about the target, and I told him who was with - used to go to that target. He then came back with a report that we should go on and attack the target. I couldn't do that without their approval, as they were my superiors. MR MALAN I just wanted clarity of what, maybe it's your definition of target, once you identified the target, it was clear in your mind, you would be shooting all the whites there and you would take all the money that you could take, that's the definition of deciding on a target, is that correct? MR BHANI Yes, we would shoot everybody who was white and took money. MR MALAN And you didn't receive orders to do that, that was implicit, it was simply approved? MR BHANI According to our policy as the soldiers, you couldn't do anything without an order. As I've already said, we received an order to shoot the people who was there and take money. I gave such a report. When I receive an order to carry on with the mission, the answer, my report, the one that I gave them. MR MALAN I'm not trying to set a trap to you, I'm trying to understand in my own mind, when you did the reconnaissance, you identified the target, already then you know that if it would be approved, everybody present, every white person present, would be killed, all the cash would be taken, am I understanding you correctly, that's all I'm asking, is that what it means when you say you identified the target? MR BHANI I don't understand you, can you please repeat your question? MR MALAN I want to understand whetehr the regional commander told you to shoot the people, and whether that was the first time that you thought of shooting people, and steal the money, what was your idea when you say you identified the target? Does it mean that you then already decided, "This is the place we will attack, we will kill all the whites, we will take all the money, in order to do that, we simply need approval from the commander"? MR BHANI After identifying the target, I had to give a report saying that there is a place like this, as a superior, please approve this or give an order or a decision, as you have the powers to do so, for us to continue with killing the people there and robbing that place. He would then give an order. Are you satisfied? MR MALAN That's exactly just what I wanted to make sure of, that I understood you correctly. CHAIRPERSON Were you told from the time you were sent there that the targets you were looking for were places where you could kill people, white people, and take money, steal money, were you told to look for that sort of target? MR BHANI According to my report to the regional commander, I gave him a report that that was a shop and members of the AWB and the police used to go there. I was asking for approval to continue with the operation or not, whether to continue or not, whether the regional commander got approval from the Director of Operations or not. CHAIRPERSON You've told us that many times, what I simply want to know is, when you were sent there, you have told us you were sent to that area, were you sent there to look for this sort of target? MR BHANI As I've already said that any target was okay, as long as it was going to fulfil the needs of the APLA and the PAC. CHAIRPERSON Well what sort of target would fulfil that? MR BHANI As we don't differentiate between the soft and hard targets, as long as there are boers, the target was fine, as the policy said that we should overthrow the white domination, as long as there were white people, no matter in which political organisations they belonged to, as long as they were benefitting from their government, the white government ...(intervention). The question which I would also like some clarity on is, you left, you say you got instructions, presumably in Umtata, and then was deployed in the Free State. Now your lawyer didn't cover those paragraphs with you, but who gave you instructions to go to the Free State? MR BHANI The person who sent me to the Free State was the director. I was together with Sibande. We were going to meet Khotle, the regional commander, here in the Free State. All right. Now, when you were sent to meet Khotle, did you already have instructions from Umtata as to what to do, from the commander, from the director? MR BHANI Yes, I knew that this was the operation area, this is what I knew. As the people who were in the field, we would see what to do, where and when. The only thing we could do was that when we saw something, we had to report and then get an approval from the superiors whether to continue with the operation or not. Why were you sent to the Free State? Did he tell you? MR BHANI I was told by the regional commander that here I came, I was here to work, I was going to be responsible for whatever we were going to do. As I've already stated, I was going to take over from Khotle, I was going to be the regional commander. You mention the concept "white herenvolkism", what is your understanding of that, what does that mean? Do you know the concept? What does it mean in your understanding? MR BHANI According to my understanding, or according to what I heard, if I still remember well, it was the white governance, the way they were governing, the manner that they were governing this country, our country. But you don't have a specific content to that concept, "the manner they were governing the country", is that saying it's apartheid, or what are you referring to in your understanding? MR BHANI As the PAC, what we are concerned about is that this is our land. The murders of apartheid, we are only referring to the land that was taken by the boers through blood, they were the drivers of the apartheid, that is why the apartheid is referred to as the crime against humanity. The driver of the apartheid is a criminal. The PAC is concurrent about the land. You say in your application and also in your evidence that negotiations were already on at Kempton Park, by '93 it was far advanced, it was the follow-up after CODESA, PAC was participating, do you still believe that these attacks were necessary? Don't you see that the negotiation would have gone the same way, would probably have gone the same way, without the APLA attacks? MR BHANI We are a military wing, we are trained soldiers, we are trained to take orders. The PAC was the mother body, APLA was the lower structure of the PAC. As long as we didn't get an order from the PAC saying that we should stop, we are going to continue until we receive an order to cease fire, as on the 16th of January 1994, that order was given. Ja, I'm not disputing that. You are saying there was nego..., you said earlier there was negotiations at Kempton Park, you had all these attacks, you were asked how do you feel about the people that were dead, that got killed, and you said, "It happens, if it didn't happen, we would not have had the democracy". Now my question is simply, do you believe that, or, on looking back, would we not have had democracy without the attack on the Wesselsbron Supermarket? Was this necessary, not whether it was an order, I'm asking you to evaluate the fact, not to defend the order, let's accept for the moment that that order and policy was in place? MR BHANI There were negotiations, but at the very same time, if we remember well, in 1993, May and June, the PAC offices were raided and the members of the PAC were arrested all over the country. There were negotiations, the government was involved in the negotiations. We couldn't fold our arms, because our rights were violated, we were supposed to do something to show that the government was not serious with the negotiations. Was it not also true that attacks, the armed struggle continued after 1990, it was never stopped, the Wesselsbron attack wasn't the first attack, PAC attacked, they had the armed struggle all through during negotiations, it didn't commence with this, isn't that also true? MR BHANI I don't understand your question. Was the armed struggle and violence, was it not going all all through until only, as you've said, 1994, shortly before the elections? It was not a response only to the raid, in a sense the government said at the time that the raid was in response to attacks, and then more attacks came after the raid, is that not also true? MR BHANI The raid happened and in 1993, the APLA command said that that was the year of the great storm. As the military wing, we were supposed to carry on the armed struggle. The fact that there were negotiations at that that time, that didn't mean that we were liberated or free, that was a process, people were trying to find a solution, that didn't mean that the solution was there at the time, or they found a solution at that time, and the PAC did not give us an order at the time to suspend the armed struggle, we were working accordingly. CHAIRPERSON Carry on. Thank you, Mr Chairman. You see, Sir, the victims' viewpoint is this, that this was a common robbery, and you did it because it was for own personal gain, nothing else. Do you have any comment on that? MR BHANI They have a right to say so, but it is not like that. What we were doing was to further the aims of the PAC, together with APLA. That is not true, what they are saying is not true. And then maybe my last question to you, am I right in saying that no information of this sort was provided by you or any of your attackers when you were prosecuted in the supreme court, you didn't tell the Court you were soldiers of APLA, that your motivation for this was because it was part of the armed struggle, am I right? MR BHANI First of all, in court we wanted to be found not guilty, that's what we were trying to do. We couldn't say, "Yes, we were members of APLA, we did that", because I could see that we were going to be found guilty, I couldn't admit to that and say that, "Yes, I did this and I'm a member of APLA", I was trying to be found not guilty. Sorry, Mr Chairman, just a last question. Sir, before the attack, you were the person in charge there, did you tell your other co-attackers that they must only shoot at white people, not indiscriminately, but they must go for white people? What did you tell them? MR BHANI Yes, I told them to shoot white people, and to take money, and after that, to withdraw. Thank you, Mr Chairman. Just on this point, one of the affidavits that's been put before us of one of the victims has a statement which says that if indeed the shooting of people was your objective, you could have shot many more people, because there were many more people present in the supermarket that night. To my question, you said that there were only the eight people. Would you think about that again and may we have your comment? MR BHANI If there were a lot of people there, that means they were going to be affected, some of them were going to be injured or some of them were going to die. As I've already said, I didn't count that this is the first or the second or the third person, I didn't have time to count them. But you did say that you shot all the people that were present, they were only the eight people present, which you've learnt only after the time that they were eight, but you saw no other people that weren't killed or wounded, is that what you were saying? MR BHANI The people who were there, were the people who got injured and the people who died. I don't know about others. Maybe they were there in other rooms or something, because in court it was said that one of them was at the back. Okay, thank you. CHAIRPERSON Do you say you shot all the people who were in the supermarket, in the shopping area? MR BHANI Please repeat your question? CHAIRPERSON Do you say you shot all the people, killed or injured all the people who were in the shopping area, in the supermarket? MR BHANI Those who were in front of our eyes. CHAIRPERSON Yes, the people you could see in the supermarket? MR BHANI Yes. CHAIRPERSON I was thinking of taking the adjournment now and adjourning till quarter to two, if that would suit you. You can, if you want to, take your re-examination now, but I thought it's after 1:00 already, it would be easier for you to do it at quarter to two, is that all right with you? We can adjourn, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Right, we'll now adjourn till quarter to two. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS FOR LUNCH MANGALISEKILE BHANI (still under oath) Good, Mr Chairman, there's only one point I ...(inaudible) Mr Bhani, it transpired during the cross-examination that the victims are saying that there were many people in the supermarket. Now, my question will be, you indicated that you shot those people, five people and three were injured, can you explain to the Committee, how were you shooting (indistinct) you were shooting a person one by one and all those, how (long silence) - okay, let me repeat it, it transpired during cross-examination that the victims are saying that there were many people in the supermarket, more than the number which you have already indicated, the five dead and the three injured. Now, can you tell the Committee how were you shooting in the supermarket? MR BHANI The rifle was in automatic, we were shooting, as the rifle was in automatic, we were not shooting a person, we were not shooting them one by one, we were not placing a firearm in the forehead and shooting them one by one, we were just shooting at them automatically. So are you trying to say to the Committee that it's possible that some of the people you missed during that shooting (indistinct)? MR BHANI That is possible. Now, the other point, Mr Chairman, was that it was raised by one member of the Committee and which we did not canvass, it was put to you when you left Umtata to go to Welkom, it was asked about what were your instructions, and what I want to get from you and explain to Committee, you were told to come to Umtata by the Director of Operations, as you indicated, and that you will meet the regional commander, for what specific purpose were you, with the exception that you were also going to take over as a regional commander ...(intervention). MR MALAN Sorry, that's to Welkom, not to Umtata. MR BHANI Please repeat your question. Can you tell the Committee what were your specific instructions, when you left Umtata to Welkom, what was your mission, with the exception of taking over from Khotle? MR BHANI I was deployed here, I was not given instructions about what to do when I got here, I would see that on the field, we would see what to do. So what you are saying is that you were going to seek the target and identify, seek and identify the target on your own? MR BHANI Yes. And thereafter will you have to get an approval to execute the mission? MR BHANI That is correct. MR MALAN May I just ask the question, when were you supposed to take over as Free State regional commander? MR BHANI There was no specific date. Who was to confirm that appointment? MR BHANI The decision was going to come from the regional commander of that time, together with the director. Was the regional commander at that time, was he to decide when he steps down and when you would be taking over? We're talking about Khotle. MR BHANI That was going to depend, because before he would step down, I was supposed to know what he knew according to this area, the area that he belonged to. Was he also from Umtata? MR BHANI Yes. Was he in Welkom at that time, how long had he been there? MR BHANI I wouldn't know, because we were not staying in the same place, but we would see each other when we meet in Umtata. When was the last time that you saw him in Umtata, how long before this incident? MR BHANI It was early in 1993, but I don't remember the month and the date. So he had not been in Welkom for long by that time when you arrived? MR BHANI It depends, because you would be in your area and then we would go back to the base where we were staying and where the director was also staying. It might happen that he was there for a long time, maybe I would meet him at this place when he was there for a particular reason. We will ask that of him when he comes to give his evidence. Thank you. MR STEENKAMP Mr Chairman, I believe I have already had my ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON (inaudible). Thank you. WITNESS EXCUSED