amntrans AMNESTY HEARING 1998-08-18 BLOEMFONTEIN 2 SILIMELA QUKUBONA NGESI WESSELSBRON SUPERMARKET ATTACK https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=52817&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1998/98081721_blm_bloem2.htm Mr Chairman, I'm calling now Silimela Ngesi to take the witness stand. SILIMELA QUKUBONA NGESI (sworn states) Mr Ngesi, you have an affidavit in front of you, which is also before the Committee. Do you confirm that the affidavit which is in front of you and also before the Committee, that the affidavit was made by you and also abide by its contents? MR NGESI Yes. Mr Chairman, as usual I will start with paragraph 7, I won't go through the other portions of the affidavit. I'm reading from paragraph 7 "I was deployed in March in Welkom by the Director of Special Operations and Deputy-Director of Operations, Sipho Mulelane Thuma" Now, Mr Ngesi, can you tell the Committee whether you knew Mr Thuma by the name which is in your affidavit, or is there any other name which you know him by? MR NGESI Yes, there is another name that I knew, the name was Sipho. Did you know that he's Mulelame Thuma, the surname is Thuma? MR NGESI I didn't know. Now, can you tell the Committee, when you were deployed by him, you said you were deployed by him in March in Welkom, what was your specific mission for, what was your instruction when you were deployed in Welkom? MR NGESI The instructions that I got from this comrade was to take a taxi to Welkom, I would meet Comrade Khotle, that is Abel Khotle, I would meet him in Welkom in the township, in the black township, in the taxi rank. When I got there, the comrade was already there, he was waiting for me in the taxi rank, but I don't remember the name of the township, but the township that I was staying in, the name is Themba. Are you saying to the Committee that the only instruction was that you go to Welkom and meet Abel Khotle, nothing else was said to you? MR NGESI The instruction I got from Umtata was that everything else I was going to hear from Khotle, but from our camps, I knew that I was deployed to fight for my country, but I knew that I was going to get instructions or orders from Khotle. I went to Welkom to fight for my country. I'm sorry for interrupting you, may we please stop this flashing, please. Thank you, Mr Chairman. "He provided me with accommodation in Welkom and Wesselsbron." Can you explain to the Committee how did this happen? Were you staying in Welkom and Wesselsbron, how, can you explain to the Committee how, what was happening? MR NGESI When I got to Welkom, I met the comrade and I spent two days in the hostel. From there I went with him to Wesselsbron. I then met the other comrade, Shermi, and I stayed with his friend, his friend was working in the mines and the house was empty, no-one was staying there, I stayed in that house and I made an area assessment before other comrades could arrive. After that, after I left Welkom, or after I left Wesselsbron, I went back to Welkom, because I told him that I didn't like that place, I want to stay in Welkom. He then helped me, he took me to where I wanted to stay, and in Welkom I was staying in a shack. He would then come to me for certain things, when I wanted something from him, he would come as he was the regional commander of the Free State. Now, I'm reading paragraph 8 "I used to commute between Welkom and Wesselsbron for purposes of identifying targets." Can you tell the Committee how were you identifying targets, who gave you instruction to do that? MR NGESI We received instructions from Comrade Khotle, as I knew that area, Wesselsbron, because I would visit that place frequently because there were also other comrades that were staying there, and the target that I am about today, I knew that area, because I used to stay there, it's near the taxi rank. Everyone who was in the taxi rank would go and buy in that shop, even the police used to go to that shop and the AWB. That's one of the targets that Silimela Ngesi wanted to start with in that area. Mr Chairman, if there are no questions on that paragraph, I move to paragraph 9 "I confirm that on the day of the operation, I travelled from Welkom to Wesselsbron, with Sohane, the driver, Sibande and Sebinzile on the instruction of Abel Khotle. He instructed us to meet Bhani in Wesselsbron and he will brief us about the operation to take place." Now, can you tell the Committee how did you go to, what mode of transport, whose transport was it you used to go to Wesselsbron from Welkom? MR NGESI Comrade Khotle came to my place, together with Comrade Sohane, Dennis Sibande and Sebinzile. They came to me with firearms. Khotle used to keep the firearms, and he told that I would be going to Wesselsbron with those comrades. He said to me the only person who was going to give me the instruction was Mangalisekile Bhani. ADV SOGODI Please slow down a bit, even for the interpreter, because we can't take the notes properly. Yes, can you go a little bit and tell them, but a little bit slower, to tell, I asked you how did you go to Wesselsbron, whose transport and who gave you instructions to go to Wesselsbron? Just slowly, because also it's difficult to get it when you are fast, as a member of the Committee indicated. MR NGESI As I've already said, Comrade Khotle is the one who issued the instruction to me. He was in the company of the other comrades with the firearms. He told me to go to Wesselsbron. He told me that I was going to meet with Sipho. Comrade Sipho was the one who was going to give me further instructions. I was in Comrade Sohane's car, the Datsun 1600, from Welkom to Wesselsbron. When we arrived there, Sipho was already waiting for us. Let's go to paragraph 10 "The firearms were kept by me in Welkom and I took them to the car and I gave others in the car." Can you explain that to the Committee? MR NGESI Yes, I kept the firearms in my place, but the only firearms that were with me were three, because the other comrade brought grenades and one pistol. I took, those who were with me, I took them to the car. Now when you arrive at Wesselsbron ...(intervention). Who were the others in the car, you're moving on from paragraph 10? Excuse me? Are you still with paragraph 10? Yes, I was still with paragraph 10, but you can ...(intervention). No, sorry, no, sorry then for the interruption. Thank you, Mr Chairman. Now, at paragraph 10, the member of the Committee was about to ask a question about that, maybe I'll (indistinct), can you explain who the others were in the car when you went to Welkom, those who you gave them firearms? MR NGESI When we left for Wesselsbron, it was myself, Comrade Suko, and Dennis, the driver was Dennis, but he didn't have a firearm, and Sibande and Sebinzile. Mr Chairman, can I proceed? Can you just tell us, who was Comrade Suko? MR NGESI What Comrade are you talking about? You talked about yourself and Suko, who is Suko? MR NGESI Sebinzile. Is that Sebinzile? MR NGESI Suko is Sebinzile. And Dennis, is that Sibande? MR NGESI Yes, that's him. Can I proceed, Mr Chairman? Now, you arrived at Wesselsbron and you met Bhani, Mangalisekile Bhani, and he briefed you about the operation and you went to Wesselsbron Supermarket. Can you then, in your own words, tell the Committee, what role did you play when you arrived at the supermarket, what did you do? MR NGESI When we arrived there from Mnyagene, before we left, we were told that the target was the supermarket, and I knew at the time that that was the target and I was anxious to get there. The first person to get inside was Bhani, I was the second one and the third comrade, Sebinzile, followed. Comrade Bhani issued an instruction to fire. I started shooting. I was shooting everything that was in front of my eyes. After that, Bhani told us to take the money. We didn't ask questions, because the order was already issued, we were told to fire and take the money. He was the last person to leave the supermarket. That was the end, we went back to Mnyagene township. Now, I want you to comment, there was evidence in court to the effect that you were the person who was given orders, in fact during ID parade you were identified as the person who was giving orders whilst you were inside the supermarket. What do you say to that? MR NGESI They were false to identify me, because I was taller, therefore they thought that I was the one who was responsible for issuing instructions, because Bhani was not yet arrested at the time, I was the one who was already arrested, therefore they had to say I was the one who issued the instruction, but that was not true. They got the wrong information, because they were told that it was Ngesi, but Ngesi was just Bhani's assistant. Therefore if Bhani happened to be injured at the time, I would take over, but fortunately we came back all alive, all of us. Now, the incident took place and you left after that incident and people died as a result of your actions. Now, what do you say now when you look and face the victims of that incident, what have you to say to the Committee and everybody who is here regarding that incident? MR NGESI Today, we have a democratic government, though we are still in jail, I'm happy that I participated in the struggle. Anyone who is involved in the war, it's obvious that there's death. The PAC organisation was formed in 1959, it was not there to satisfy the settlers regime, but it was formed to satisfy the indigenous of the land, not the settlers. If you don't understand that, you can ask anyone. 11 months after it was formed, it was banned, in 1960, that was on the 21st of March in Sharpeville, people died. The victims are saying that what you did there has nothing to do with politics, it was just pure robbery and callous murder on your part, what do you say to that? MR NGESI They have a right to say so because they were the people who were affected and they were the same people who were benefitting from the old regime, the people who were drafting the laws were not affected, because they were staying in parliament, they were protected and those people who were affected were those who were affected, but if they did take a position about this and try and fight for unity, that would be better. They don't belong to this country. We were born here. There's a difference between a person who takes the land and a person who was born in that particular land, but if they were in our shoes, if they were feeling the pain, they would try to talk to the government. For an example, in Uitenhage, people died, that was not a revenge, our operations were not meant to revenge, because of the deaths of the people in Uitenhage, that is not a revenge, but our aim was to push the struggle. I like PAC, I was not forced to join the liberation army, but I was feeling the pain, then I decided to join. MR NGESI Yes, can you hear me? I'm saying is there anything you want to add or whatever you want to say to the Committee which you have not said which you think would be relevant if you put it to the Committee? MR NGESI Yes. As we have applied for amnesty, for us being here, though we don't say that we ask for forgiveness, we can then ask for forgiveness, because the others are enjoying the fruit of the struggle, they're enjoying liberation, and we are also in prison and our families are suffering, but the people who were oppressing us, we are all the same, we are united in this new South Africa. That is all, Mr Chairman. Sir, can you just indicate to us exactly what were your orders on the day of the incident, exactly what were you told to do? MR NGESI Just clarify, what instructions? Did you receive any instructions, from anybody, before embarking on this incident? MR NGESI No. The only instruction that I got was from Khotle to move to Wesselsbron, and meet with Bhani. Bhani instructed me to go with him to attack at Wesselsbron. That was all. Now that's exactly what I want to know, what exactly did Bhani told you to do, only to rob or, what did he tell you? MR NGESI Bhani said, "Let us go, there is a target, I identified this target and I want this target to be attacked and when we arrive there, we will kill the people and get their money and take the money". We did as he told us, we shot at the people there and we took the money and we left the place. CHAIRPERSON What weapon did you use? MR NGESI R4 rifles. CHAIRPERSON Where did you get it? MR NGESI What do you mean by where did we get them? CHAIRPERSON Where did you get the R4 from? MR NGESI Khotle gave them to me and I kept them. CHAIRPERSON When did he give them to you? MR NGESI Just before the operation at Wesselsbron. CHAIRPERSON Well did he give you them, or did he give you a weapon? MR NGESI He didn't give me a weapon, he gave me three weapons. Those that were with me were three. CHAIRPERSON Yes? Thank you, Mr Chairman. Sir, you said in your evidence in chief that you started to shoot at everything that was in front of your eyes, is that correct? MR NGESI Yes. So you were shooting indiscriminately, in other words you were shooting, you didn't identify a specific group of people, you start shooting at everything and anybody in the shop, do I understand you correctly? MR NGESI That's correct, I did that. So you did not make a distinction between the white people and the black people, is that correct? MR NGESI There were no black people there. You see my information is, and if necessary I will lead evidence to the effect on behalf of the victims, that in fact there were black people in the shop. Can you dispute this? MR NGESI There were no black people in the shop. Is it also correct that you actually started shooting at people after they were told to lie down? MR NGESI The only order that I got from Bhani was to fire, open fire. So you were there. Were the people lying down when you started to shoot them? Do you understand the question? MR NGESI They had their hands in the air, they had their hands up in the air. In other words they were standing, they were not lying down? MR NGESI Certainly. I'm also informed by the victims that this supermarket is predominantly visited and supported by the black community, to a large extent, most of the buyers are 90% black people, do you know this, or can you dispute this? MR NGESI I didn't want to know who were the customers, but I went there to kill. If the blacks were buying there, were buying in that shop, were customers in that shop, that was their right to do so, but when I went there, they were not there. Can you tell the Committee, were all the people, all your members of this specific attack, were everybody arrested and prosecuted for this incident, or not? MR NGESI It's not all of them who were arrested. Who was not arrested, can you give us their names? MR NGESI Dennis Sibande, Sebinzile, who was called Suko at the time, two of them. Do you know why they were not arrested? MR NGESI I don't know. Sir, what was the policy of APLA or the PAC at that stage, only to kill, to kill people, unarmed people, or what exactly, how did you understand, what was the policy of APLA or the PAC at that stage, regarding this struggle you were fighting? MR NGESI Please explain, when you are talking about people, are you talking about the Europeans or Africans? Even though they were Africans who were working for the government, if they were there also, those Africans who were working for the government, I would shoot them. So, hypothetically, if there were black people in the shop that night, you would have killed them as well? MR NGESI I don't want to talk about something that didn't happen. The black people were not in the shop, let us not talk about that. If they were there, or black policemen, if they were there, I would kill them. Black people were not there. Let us not talk about that. Mr Ngesi, no, I mean that's not satisfactory. If you're prepared to talk about policemen that were not there, then you should talk about people that were not there as well, non-policemen. MR NGESI The blacks were not there. Were the policemen there? MR NGESI There was only one policeman. A black policeman? MR NGESI It was not a black policeman. But I heard you say if there was a black policeman, you would have shot him there, is that correct? MR NGESI That's correct. Now the question of Mr Steenkamp is, if there other black civilians, would you have shot them MR NGESI If there were policemen, I was going to shoot them, but if they weren't police, I wouldn't. Sir, I'm informed, and if he says he will lead evidence, that at your trial, a black employee of the shop owner actually testified that he was in the shop and he was, there was an attempt to kill him as well, he was a black civilian working for the shop owner, can you remember that? MR NGESI Yes, I remember. But why don't you tell the Committee this? You just said now, maybe I'm wrong, but you just indicate there was no black people. At your trial, a black person who worked in the shop testified. MR NGESI I want to clarify this part about this black person. They say this person was employed there in the shop, I don't know that, but in the scene there was no black policeman. Maybe that person, as he was working there, he was trusted, he was trustworthy to them, and he was made to identify at that identification parade. I was taken to the scene, maybe that Phuli (?), or that person saw me during the pointing out, maybe he was given a photograph of myself and he was told to take a closer look at me, so that he could identify me. I'm sure he was promised something, that is why he did that, that is why he sold me out, that's what I believe in, that is why I didn't even talk about that Phuli, because Phuli identified me as a person who was there, though I know very well that there was no black person in that scene. If Phuli was there, he was at the back where they say he was staying, but he was not in the scene. So when you were asked this question, why didn't you supply this information to the Committee, that there actually was a black person in the shop, you said there was no black person in the shop, no civilians? MR NGESI I'm still saying that there was no black person in the shop. You see the victims are saying that your attack was focused on unarmed people. Now my question to you is, you are saying you were APLA soldiers, why didn't you focus your attack on the security police, or the police, or the people who was responsible for enforcing the laws of the land as it was at that stage, why did you decide on an unarmed shop, where people were working and selling to black people to anybody, why didn't you focus on them? You were soldiers? Those people were armed, then we didn't see their arms on that particular day, but we heard, through the newspapers and the radios that one lady tried to take her firearm, they say there was an armed policeman, but we didn't see him, nor the gun. A person who escaped there had a revolver, a triple eight, he shot in the air about three times, maybe he was trying to call the police. That's the report we got from the newspapers and the radios, even in court, that was the information that was given. Even if the police were there, we were going to kill them. The police station was about 100 metres from the scene, it's not far, it's only two streets from the supermarket. They heard that there was a shooting, but they didn't come, they didn't go to that police when we were there. So on your own version, on your own version, and that of the previous applicant, not a single person in the supermarket resisted when you decided to rob the shop, on the court's evidence that was provided to the judge sitting at the hearing, people were lying down, on your version they were standing up, not resisting at all, in other words they were unarmed, why are you saying now they were armed? I'm still saying that they were armed. We won't take the story from the court and combine it with this story. In court we wanted to save ourselves, we wanted to be acquitted. This is not the court of law. CHAIRPERSON Did you see any arms there, because as I understand what you've been telling us now is something you heard or read about later? No, I didn't see any arms. Were you informed by Bhani or anybody that these people will probably be armed, before the incident? The only instruction we got from Bhani was to attack the police station. As a person who once stayed there at Wesselsbron, I used to see the people armed there. Did Bhani tell you only to kill white people, or what did he tell you? He said we must fire, open fire. So he didn't tell you only to kill white people, is that correct, do I understand you correctly? That's correct. Then maybe I'm wrong, but why is your version totally different from that of Bhani? What's the difference? The previous applicant testified that their main focus was to kill the white people, the boers as he called them, and that was his instructions. Now you're saying this is not correct. Do you understand the question? Now my question to you is, why... (intervention). MR MBANDAZAYO Mr Chairman, I don't think that's - if my learned friend can rephrase his questioning, because the applicant didn't say that it's not correct what was said by Bhani. He was asked what was he told by Bhani, and he said he said we must fire. Now the question is, at what stage did he told them to fire, whether when they were briefed, because my understanding is that they were talking about what actually happened at the supermarket. Mr Chairman, I'll... (intervention). CHAIRPERSON (Inaudible)? MR MBANDAZAYO In the supermarket he was told that, "Fire"... (intervention). CHAIRPERSON (Inaudible)? Mr Chairman, I'll rephrase the question then, so that my learned colleague can also understand. It seems he's got problems with my questions. Sir, exactly, my fourth time I'm asking you, exactly what were your instructions from Bhani, were your instructions to kill people or... (intervention). Mr Steenkamp, sorry for interrupting, I think the misunderstanding is, instructions at what stage are you referring to, before they moved to the supermarket, at the supermarket, if you could just clarify this in your question. Thank you, Mr Chairman. Before the incident at the supermarket, were you briefed by Bhani on the target you're going to attack? He told us about the target, he told us that we were going to the supermarket just before we left. The second instruction was when we were inside the supermarket, when he instructed us to fire. There was no other instruction that he issued thereafter. We went back to Mnyagene location thereafter. Did he at any stage, at any stage, this is now prior the incident and during the incident, inform you only to attack white people? Do you understand my question? Never, he never gave us that instruction. Now you see, this is my question, and maybe I'm wrong, but as far as I remember Mr Bhani's evidence, this is not what he said. He said the focus was only to kill white people. Now my question is to you, why are you differing from what Bhani said in his evidence before the Committee? Do you understand my question? Can you please explain your question? If you say the focus was on white people, what do you mean? I don't get your question? You see, Sir, the previous applicant testified that the focus was, or the aim was, to kill white people in the shop, you heard that, you were sitting there, do you remember that? Yes, I remember, I heard so. Now you're saying he never gave you such an instruction, is that correct? He didn't tell us to shoot white people before getting to the supermarket, the instruction came when we were in the supermarket, he gave us an instruction to shoot and I shot everything that was in front of my eyes. In other words black or white people, anybody that was in the shop, not only white people? There were no black people, we didn't find black people there, there were only whites. Can I just ask you... (intervention). ADV SOGODI Sir, in your affidavit you mentioned that you were a unit commander and you had undergone military training in Tanzania and Uganda, and then you came back into the country. Now what I want to know is that, in relation to targets, what was the policy that - was there any policy that you knew of insofar as APLA was concurrent in relation to targets, what criteria was used to identify targets by the PAC or by APLA? As I've already said, the commander identified the target, I would take instructions from the commander. ADV SOGODI My question is, in identifying targets, what criteria would be used as a matter of policy by the PAC, was there any policy used to identify targets, and if so what criteria were used to identify those targets? An example, the supermarket was chosen because it was frequented by the police and AWB members, and they were different, the AWB members were different, because they had badges in their uniforms, and the police had uniform, that's the example of a target. May I just follow that up? Wouldn't a post office also then be a target, wouldn't AWB members go to a post office, wouldn't every shop then, on that basis, be a target? If we would find them there, they would be targets, even the post office would be a target. The question by the Committee Member was, the criteria to identify a target, and then you said police and AWB, but police and AWB frequent every possible public facility, wouldn't all public facilities then be a target? That's really the question. What is the relevance of the police and AWB? Murder and "Roof" wears uniform, wears privately, not uniform, but if you happen to know some people there, you won't say that just becuase this one belongs to this group, but as long as you know that this person is a policeman and he is your enemy, you would shoot anyone who is next to him, even if it's black policemen, they were benefitting from the old regime. I was forced to kill them. No, you're not following, the qeustion was, when you identified a target, what was the criteria used to identify a target, would you try to answer that qeustion again, what criteria did you use in identifying a target? ADV SOGODI Sorry, may I just ask this question, I'll put this question to you in Xhosa, I see that you are Xhosa speaking, you speak Xhosa? Yes. ADV SOGODI The qeustion is, I am going to put it in Xhosa, when you are about to identify your target, there are things that you look for before, what are those things that you use to identify, what are those things that you would look for in order to identify your target? ADV SOGODI Would it be necessary for that spot to be a place that is used by the public? That would depend on a person who would be identifying that target, he's the one who would be in a better position, who would know what people are frequenting that place. Like the golf club, the owners of the land wouldn't be affected, but only the oppressors who would be affected. Bhani chose Wesselsbron, because he knew that those who were oppressed were not there, it's only the oppressors who were there. I hope you'll understand it that way. ADV SOGODI No, I do understand. All we need is to get from you the policy, APLA policy, as far as identifying the targets? If we want a target, the commander would go to that particular town and inspect the place, maybe he would find a place that is frequented by the boers and think to himself that if I hit this place, the government would feel the pain, rather than attacking one person, so if they die in large numbers, they would protest. For an example, at Wesselsbron, after that attack, the people marched, those people marched and they realised that APLA was just around the corner. At this target, the supermarket, was there a taxi rank there? That's correct. Right at the supermarket? There's a street in between, it's just in the front opposite of the supermarket. Would the people from the taxi rank, public there, arriving from taxis and coming to taxis, would they not frequent the shop? They were not even there, because the taxis stop working at about 8:00 p.m., the taxis that are going to the townships. So after 8:00 there are no taxis? No taxis. Thank you. Thank you, Mr Chairman. Maybe just a last question to you, what exactly were your instructions regarding the robbery? Did you have previous information that there will be money in the shop, a large amount of money, or how did you get the information that there was actually money in the shop, did you discuss it or how did it happen? No, we never discussed that. Didn't you take your own briefcase with you to the shop when you commenced the robbery, didn't you take your own briefcase with you inside the shop? No. You see, the information I have is that when you entered the shop, you had your own briefcase? CHAIRPERSON Can I clarify, do you mean him personally, or the group? I'm sorry, Mr Chairman, I mean the group. One of you in the group had a briefcase in his possession wherein the money was then put, the money that was robbed in the shop. Do you understand that? Yes, but that never happened, there's nothing like that. CHAIRPERSON Where was the money put? In our pockets. CHAIRPERSON Do you mean you all took pocketfuls of money? That's correct, there were cheques, it was about R4 000,00, there were cheques also. CHAIRPERSON Yes. There were how many of you? You mean inside or, please clarify your question? CHAIRPERSON Inside. There were three of us, there were three of us. Did you take the money after the shooting, or before the shooting? After the shooting. Who opened the till for you? There's a lady who was there, who was inside, she opened the till. Before she was shot? Surely. Now, did you ask her to open the till? Yes, we did. And when did you take the money, when she opened the till? She pressed the till, I took the money, and she pressed another one, and the other one took the money and she pressed another till and the other comrade came and took the money, we took the money to the commander. So you took the money before you shot the people? Just before she was killed, the others were already shot at, she was the last person to be shot at, we took the money before we shot at her. Why did you spare her? You got the order to shoot from Mr Bhani, and you say you shot everything in front of your eyes, why didn't you shoot this lady too? I was on the left-hand side, she was on the right-hand side, when I came in, I came through the left-hand side, next to the tills, she was standing next to a till. I saw her when Bhani went back and she came and opened all the tills, and we took the money and we shot at her, we left the place. No, we didn't take the money first. Thank you, Mr Chairman. Can I just ask you a last question? Except for the money and the cheques, did you take anything else out of the supermarket, food, clothing, the personal belongings of any of the victims, or was it the only the money and the cheques? We took money and the cheques only. Any food? No. Thank you, Mr Chairman, no further questions. CHAIRPERSON The money, was it notes or coins? It was bank notes and coins, and cheques. CHAIRPERSON And you say it all went into your pockets? Yes. CHAIRPERSON One other point I would like to clarify, I'm afraid I'm a little confused by this, you shot all the people who were there? Yes. CHAIRPERSON Who identified you at the identification parade, and pointed you out? Though I didn't see the person, but in court, Phuli is the one I know, there were eight people who went to the identification parade, four people pointed me, the only person that I got to know was Phuli, I don't know the names of the other three persons who pointed me. ADV SOGODI Sorry, Chairperson, this Phuli who pointed you, you say "the only person I knew was Phuli who pointed me", did you know him before the shooting, or did you know him after the shooting? I knew him when I saw him in court and I got to know his name, that he was Phuli. ADV SOGODI And what about the other three people, didn't they come to court? Yes, they came. But why do you single out Phuli as the person you knew in court, why do you single him out? It's because he had an African name, the name that I'll never forget, the others' names I forgot, I couldn't remember their names. Were they black or white people? They were white. MR STEENBERG Chairman, I can just confirm that the Phuli the applicant is talking about, is in fact the person that pointed the applicant out in court, and he was one of the black employees in the shop, who actually saw the applicant in the shop. A witness to this effect will be called. CHAIRPERSON (Inaudible)? MR STEENKAMP Thank you, Mr Chairman, yes. Mr Ngesi, you were asked about identifying of targets, can you tell the Committee, during your training, were you told who was your enemy? Yes. Now, tell the Committee, who was your enemy? As we knew that we were oppressed and we were oppressed by the boers, although there were Africans who benefitted from that government who oppressed us, but the enemy, our enemy was the oppressors. We didn't differentiate in colour, but the people who were oppressing us were boers. There were Africans who were working for the boers who were working against us, who were working against the people who wanted liberation, they were the people who were benefitting from the past government. If I get you correctly, you'll correct me if I'm wrong, that your enemy, your training you were told that they are boers, you were told boers or white people or what was it, white or boers, or do you use the same words for both? We used the same word, because we use it in Xhosa, we were using it in Xhosa, the boers were the people who were oppressing us. Now, are you trying to tell the Committee that since you were told that, you knew that the people who were oppressing you were boers, and then your targets were selected in that manner, that was the criteria that was used to select the targets, that the people who were oppressing us are the boers, you selected your targets in that manner? That is correct. Now coming, the last point, coming to the supermarket, the shooting, you told the Committee that the first thing that you did in the supermarket was to shoot, am I correct? That is correct. Now, with this last person who opened till for you, at what stage did you realise that she was not shot at? I saw her the time when I was stepping back, she was in the till that was in the right-hand side, I realised that there was a woman there, we then grabbed her, she came to open the till, and there were flowers in the window, so you couldn't see a person on that side, you would see a person when you were inside. So you are saying to this Committee there is a possibility, you don't have the picture of the supermarket, you know you have it, that there's a possibility that it may be true that some people you did not see them during the shooting, were hiding, there were other people who were there, but you didn't see them at that particular point in time when you were shooting, is that possible? Yes, that is possible, because at the back there was a bakery, so you couldn't see the people at the back, you could only see the people who were in front. Thank you, Mr Chairman, I have no further questions. May I just, Chair, pursue this question again in re-examination? Why do you think Mr Bhani, when he was, and you heard his evidence, is that correct? Yes. He was, on more than one occasion, on several occasions in fact, asked about the people in the store, and he said he immediately said, ordered you to shoot, which you did, and he said, "They killed five, they injured three", and he said, "Those were the only people in the store", why do you think Mr Bhani did not make reference at all to this lady who after the shooting opened the till and then was individually and separately shot, why did he not mention that? He did say that the people who were there were the five people who were killed, and that is true, the three people were injured, and this lady is included in that five. I'm sorry, this lady was killed? Yes. But Mr Bhani said, I in any event understood his evidence and I'll check the record again, to be saying that these people were shot at, all eight of them, immediately at the first occasion when he ordered you to shoot, he did not refer to a lady opening the till, at a later stage shot, he didn't say anything about that. Wasn't that important? Please repeat your question? When we talk about understanding what happened at the store, the picture we have from Mr Bhani is that he went in, that you came in, that he ordered you to shoot, that there were eight people, white people, in the shop, that the eight were shot at, five died as a result, and three were injured but did not die, that's his story. His story, as I understand it from your evidence is, you walked in, there were seven people, you shot, you killed four of them, three happened to be injured, then there was another lady, who wasn't shot at, she was taken to the till, she opened a number of tills in succession, you took the money, and then shot the lady. Does that not sound like a different story, and I know I'm paraphrasing the picture, is it not a different story? That is not a different story. Do you think Mr Bhani told this Committee the same story you told us, does it sound the same? The people who died there were eight, they were five, and the three were injured, three were injured and five were killed. My question really relates to one single incident, which is an important difference, why do you think Mr Bhani did not tell us about a lady who wasn't shot immediately with the others, but was taken out alive from wherever, taken to the tills, forced to open the tills, take out the money and then shoot the lady, why did Mr Bhani not tell us the story like that, becuase this is how you told us the story? Let me give you an example, when we entered the supermarket there were people on the side, on the left side, and on the right side there was this lady. When Bhani gave an order to shoot, we shot the people in front of us. When I went back, I saw this lady. I then grabbed her to open the tills and after that she was shot. All of them, the five of them were killed and three were injured, that's how it happened. I saw this woman, that there is another person. I then took her to open the tills. After that, she was shot. But why didn't you shoot her immediately? Weren't your instructions from Bhani to shoot everyone? I wanted money. CHAIRPERSON Was it your deliberate intention not to shoot her so she could open the till? At the time we were shooting, we did not see her, because she was on the right-hand side, I saw her when I was stepping back, when I was looking at the door. I then took her to open the till and she did and we took money and we shot at her. CHAIRPERSON I don't know if this will help at all. You followed Bhani into the supermarket, is that correct? Yes. CHAIRPERSON Did you see what he did when he first went in? Yes, I did. He met a woman who was going outside. He then pushed her inside. I then went in and I took my position, and he then gave an order for us to shoot. CHAIRPERSON Where did he push this woman? Inside the supermarket. The woman was going out... (intervention). CHAIRPERSON She was not the woman who opened the tills, or could she have been? No. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. WITNESS EXCUSED