amntrans AMNESTY HEARING 1998-08-19 BLOEMFONTEIN 3 STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE AM 5901/97 WESSELSBRON SUPERMARKET ATTACK https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=52819&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1998/98081721_blm_bloem3.htm CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] reached? MR STEENKAMP Mr Chairman, if I'm not mistaken, the applicant number 4 will be called by my learned friend this morning. MR MBANDAZAYO Correct Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Have you any objection to taking the oath - sorry, is that working, can you hear? MR TSHOANE Yes, I can. CHAIRPERSON Have you any objection to taking the oath? STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON What are you full names? MR TSHOANE Stanley Michael Tshoane. CHAIRPERSON We are now continuing with this hearing, it is the 19th of August. EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Tshoane, you have an affidavit in front of you which is also before the Committee. Do you confirm that the affidavit which is before the Committee was made by yourself and you abide by its contents? MR TSHOANE That is correct Sir. MR MALAN Just before you proceed, can we just have the correct spelling? Is it Tso or Tsho? MR TSHOANE Tshoane. MR MALAN Thank you. MR MBANDAZAYO Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Tshoane, have a look at page 2 of your affidavit - especially paragraph 5 Mr Chairman ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Sorry, has he confirmed the affidavit? MR MBANDAZAYO Yes, Mr Chairman, he confirmed it. MR TSHOANE It is already confirmed. MR MBANDAZAYO Mr Tshoane, can you have a look at paragraph 5 and especially line number 2 of your affidavit indicates that you were part of the unit that attacked Wesselsbron Supermarket. MR TSHOANE That is correct. MR MBANDAZAYO And that you have read the affidavit of comrade Bhani, it has been read to you? MR TSHOANE That is correct. MR MBANDAZAYO And that you understand it and you confirm it inasfar as it relates to the part that you took in the Wesselsbron incident? MR TSHOANE Yes, I do. MR MBANDAZAYO Now, Mr Tshoane, the evidence before the Committee so far regarding your part is that you were the owner of the car that was used in the operation in Wesselsbron and that you were the driver, do you confirm that? MR TSHOANE That is correct. MR MBANDAZAYO Do you also confirm that on the day in question you were not armed yourself, except that you were a driver? MR TSHOANE That is correct, I was not armed. MR MBANDAZAYO Now, what I want is that you tell the Committee the part you took, starting from Welkom, when did you become aware of this operation, starting when you left Welkom. MR TSHOANE I started to know about this mission when we left Welkom. We were four, that is myself, Themba Ngesi, Zuko and Sibanda. We left at half past seven to Wesselsbron. When we arrived, Mr Khotle told me that we should meet Mr Bhani in Wesselsbron who would explain to us about the operation. When we arrived we met Mr Bhani in Wesselsbron. He said to me I should drive the car and take all those who were taking part to town. I did that, I took my fellow comrades to town in Wesselsbron. When we arrived I stopped the car in front of the supermarket and they entered the supermarket, then they accomplished the mission. MR MBANDAZAYO No, were you present when Bhani was briefing the comrades about the operation? MR TSHOANE That is correct, I was present. MR MBANDAZAYO Can you tell the Committee what he said? MR TSHOANE Mr Bhani said to those who were responsible that he made reconnaissance about the place and then how the plan should be accomplished and then he asked as to whether they would have problems and they said no, because they know the place. Then we left to that particular place. CHAIRPERSON Well how was the plan to be accomplished? That is what you were asked to tell us. MR TSHOANE They were supposed to enter there and shoot those who oppressed us. MR MBANDAZAYO Mr Tshoane, can you - let me put it this way, what role did he give each of you, that is Bhani, that you are going to do this, this one is going to do this and that, the other one is going to do that, can you tell the Committee in that manner? MR TSHOANE He informed the colleagues about what should be done, then he said: "Ngesi should enter the supermarket and shoot. MR MBANDAZAYO Yes, what was the role going to be played by Zuko? MR TSHOANE Zuko must also enter and shoot. MR MBANDAZAYO What was the role going to be played by Sibanda? MR TSHOANE Spanda was just next to the door, he did not enter inside. He was supposed to look for any people who would interfere with the plan. MR MBANDAZAYO Now can you tell the Committee what happened after they came out of the supermarket? MR TSHOANE After they left the supermarket they entered into the car and then we drove to the location. MR MBANDAZAYO Yes, what did you do on your arrival at the location? MR TSHOANE When we arrived in the township I left them there, myself and Sibanda went to Tabong, that is Welkom. MR MBANDAZAYO Now, ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Sorry, what happened to the weapons? MR TSHOANE We left the weapons in Wesselsbron. MR MBANDAZAYO Now do you know a person by the name of Moses? MR TSHOANE Moses? Yes, I do. MR MBANDAZAYO Was he your friend? MR TSHOANE That is correct. MR MBANDAZAYO Did you hear his testimony in court, when he testified in court regarding this incident? MR TSHOANE Yes, I did. MR MBANDAZAYO Let me maybe remind you that he told the court that he was approached by Sibanda and he took Sibanda to you regarding transport. MR TSHOANE That is correct. MR MBANDAZAYO And also that your refused on the first occasion. MR TSHOANE Yes, I did. MR MBANDAZAYO Can you tell the Committee, were you told what was the purpose of them wanting your transport? MR TSHOANE When they wanted transport they - I had a certain duty to do. When he explained that he was sent by Mr Khotle, that is then that I agreed. I remember that Mr Khotle said there will be a parcel which I was supposed to deliver to him. MR MBANDAZAYO It is said that Moses told the court that Sibanda, if I'm not mistaken according to the court Jugement, Sibanda told you that there is a robbery which is going to take place at Wesselsbron. MR TSHOANE No, he did not tell me that. MR MBANDAZAYO And also that Moses told the court that after the incident at Wesselsbron, you told him about that but when you were still narrating what actually took place some people came and you stopped. MR TSHOANE No, I don't know that. Maybe it is a story which has been fabricated by the police and him. MR MBANDAZAYO Is there anything you want to add to your testimony to the Committee, you want to say in addition to what you have told the Committee? MR TSHOANE What I want to explain before this Committee is that oppressors are the ones who have organised those people, that those who are going to testify in court should testify in the way they did. MR MBANDAZAYO Mr Tshoane, putting aside what happened in court, I'm saying regarding this incident at Wesselsbron, of you taking part in what happened, is there anything you want to add or you want to say to the Committee? MR TSHOANE It was supposed that this work should be accomplished in whatever way, the plan which was used by those who were oppressed ...[intervention] MR MBANDAZAYO Now Mr Tshoane, without deferring to what we are saying, let me lead you this way. You know that people died as a result of this incident, is there anything you want to say regarding that? MR TSHOANE They were supposed to die because in war people die. We were struggling for liberation and by any means people would die. That many people would die in that kind of an incident, mainly those who oppressed our black people during the previous government. MR MBANDAZAYO Thank you Mr Chairman, I have nothing to say. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MBANDAZAYO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR STEENKAMP Thank you Mr Chairman, Honourable Members. Sir, I just want to ask you a question related to yesterday's information given by Mr Khotle, if I pronounce it correctly. Do you agree with the evidence or the statement of Mr Khotle yesterday, when he told the Chairperson that amongst other things the order also was to kill anything that was alive in the store, or words to that effect? Do you agree with his testimony yesterday to this effect? MR TSHOANE Yes, I do. MR STEENKAMP Was this your specific instructions, or what were your specific instructions regarding the supermarket? MR TSHOANE I don't understand your question Sir. Will you please repeat it? MR STEENKAMP I'll gladly do so. What exactly were your instruction which you received from your commander regarding the supermarket at Wesselsbron? MR TSHOANE The instruction I received is to drive the car, to take the participants to the place of the incident. MR STEENKAMP Before I turn to your amnesty application itself I just want to ask you another question. Did anybody at any instance give you any orders to attack the white communities, did you get such orders from anybody? MR TSHOANE That kind of instruction was not given to me, it was given to those who were my seniors. MR STEENKAMP You have never received such orders, am I right? Is that what you are saying? MR TSHOANE Yes, that is correct. MR STEENKAMP Well maybe you can help me. I want to refer to your amnesty application, page 3, Mr Chairman, Honourable Members, and specifically to paragraph 11 2(b), page 3 Mr Chairperson. Do you have it Sir? MR TSHOANE Yes. MR STEENKAMP I just want to read what you've actually said there and maybe you can comment on it. "Intensify the armed struggle and take it to the white communities. The order was given by Sabelo Pama, Pasia Village, Umtata, Transkei" What does this mean? MR TSHOANE Yes, I see it. MR STEENKAMP Can you comment on that Sir, because according to this paragraph it seems to me that you got certain orders to take the armed struggle to the white communities, isn't that correct? MR TSHOANE That is correct. MR STEENKAMP But why did you deny it? When I asked you the previous question you denied it. Why did you deny it? MR TSHOANE You talked about - you are not talking about the paper which is in front of me. MR STEENKAMP Do you understand my question Sir? MR TSHOANE Yes, I do. MR STEENKAMP I specifically asked whether or not you had any instructions to attack the white communities and you said no. According to your own application it seems ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON But didn't your question follow on immediately after your first question, which was: "Was an order given to kill anything that was alive"? And he agreed with that, and then you asked him about orders to attack the white community. Wasn't his attention specifically drawn to the day in question? MR STEENKAMP I agree Mr Chairman, there can be some misunderstanding. CHAIRPERSON I understood you were asking him what instructions he got on that day. MR STEENKAMP Sir, the attack on the supermarket, can you indicate to the Committee exactly what the reason was for, your personal reason or the reason you thought to be for attacking the supermarket? MR TSHOANE The reason for attacking the supermarket was the struggle for liberation. MR STEENKAMP Can I refer you to your amnesty application, page 2. This is under paragraph 9 (a) 4, with the heading there reading: Nature and Particulars. Do you see that? MR TSHOANE Yes, I do. MR STEENKAMP Can I read this to you? "We entered the Wesselsbron Supermarket whose owner was Chairperson of the AWB. On entering there were five of us. We shot all the white people who were inside indiscriminately. We did not remove any articles from the supermarket" Are you saying that the owner of the supermarket was the Chairperson of the AWB, is that what you are saying? MR TSHOANE Because he was white I would say that. MR STEENKAMP Why didn't you include this testimony in your evidence in chief, that the Chairperson according to you, the shop owner at least was the Chairperson of the AWB? MR TSHOANE He was an AWB member because he was white, because the struggle was directed against white people. MR MALAN Mr Tshoane, the question was: "Why did you say he was the Chairperson of the AWB"? If we heard you correctly you were saying: "Because he was white". Is that correct? MR TSHOANE That is correct. MR MALAN Well am I white or not? The reason why I'm asking this, I have a white skin, am I the Chairperson of the AWB? You see your answer doesn't make sense. Won't you reconsider and give us an answer as to why you say that individual was the Chairperson of the AWB? MR TSHOANE At that time when we committed this incident we were directing our struggle against white people. MR MALAN Yes, the question is, why do you say that the owner was the Chairperson of the AWB? MR TSHOANE I would say that because in many instances, according to the information we gathered, gathered by members of APLA and PAC, the AWB used to assemble in that place. MR MALAN Would you look at that answer of yours again in the application form. You are saying that the owner of the supermarket was the Chairperson of the Afrikaner Resistance Movement, AWB. The owner was heading up the party of the AWB. There are a lot of white people in South Africa, they're not all the Chairpersons of AWB, why do you say he was the Chairperson. Did you write it or did someone else tell you to put it in there? MR TSHOANE That's what I wrote. MR MALAN Ja. Who told you to write it? MR TSHOANE Nobody told me, I did it myself. MR MALAN Now the question is, do you have an answer as to why you say he was the leader of the AWB in that area? MR TSHOANE According to the information we gathered he was the one who appeared to be the Chairperson of the AWB. MR MALAN You say the information you gathered, "we gathered". Did you get that information yourself, and from whom did you get it? MR TSHOANE I was informed by our regional commander who is Mr Khotle. MR MALAN Did Mr Khotle tell you that this owner was the Chairperson of the AWB? Is that your answer? MR TSHOANE Yes, that is the person who said so. CHAIRPERSON You heard his evidence didn't you? MR TSHOANE That is correct. CHAIRPERSON And you didn't say it only once in your application. If you look at paragraph 10(a) at the bottom of the same page, you again say that "The political objective was to carry forward the armed struggle waged by the PAC/APLA at the time. As the supermarket was owned by the local Chairperson of the AWB and frequented by AWB members" Yes, I see it Sir. CHAIRPERSON So you were giving this as the main political reason for the attack on this place? MR TSHOANE That is correct Sir. CHAIRPERSON When did Mr Khotle tell you this? MR TSHOANE He told me on Friday, let me say, ja, that is Friday. CHAIRPERSON Was that the day of the attack? MR TSHOANE No, Sir. CHAIRPERSON When was it, when was the attack? MR TSHOANE It was on the night of the 3rd of July 1993. CHAIRPERSON Well what day was that? MR TSHOANE It was on a Saturday. CHAIRPERSON So this was the day before the attack he told you this? MR TSHOANE It was on a Friday before the Saturday, a week before. It was on a Friday of the week before the week of the attack. CHAIRPERSON So a week before you were told that this supermarket was owned by the Chairperson of the AWB? MR TSHOANE Yes, that is correct. CHAIRPERSON And in what connection were you told this? MR TSHOANE We were sitting down discussing the issues of the organisation. CHAIRPERSON And how did the issues of the organisation cover the ownership of the supermarket? MR TSHOANE He associated this statement together with the investigations he made. CHAIRPERSON What investigations? MR TSHOANE Those investigations were in regard to the supermarket. CHAIRPERSON His reconnaissance with a view to attacking the supermarket, were those the investigations? MR TSHOANE No, it was the information he gathered, that the AWB used to frequent the supermarket. CHAIRPERSON I still don't see why you should be discussing this supermarket with him, that the AWB frequented it. You've told me it was in connection with the investigation he made about the supermarket, what investigation did he make? MR TSHOANE About the AWB who used to frequent the supermarket. CHAIRPERSON What investigation did he make? MR TSHOANE It was in regard to the movement of the people who used to frequent the supermarket. CHAIRPERSON When was this on the Friday? MR TSHOANE It was the Friday of the week before, the week of the incident. CHAIRPERSON When on the Friday? MR TSHOANE It was around 11 o'clock. CHAIRPERSON In the morning or the evening? MR TSHOANE In the morning Sir. CHAIRPERSON So at 11a.m. on the Friday morning before the attack, a week before, he told you about the investigations he had done at the supermarket, about the people frequenting it? MR TSHOANE That is correct. MR MALAN Did he then discuss with you that the supermarket would be a target? MR TSHOANE No. MR MALAN Did he tell you that it was a possible target? MR TSHOANE No, he did not. MR MALAN Can you tell us - can you then try to explain to us what he discussed with you, why did he talk about the supermarket? MR TSHOANE He was talking about the AWB who used to frequent this place. CHAIRPERSON But why should he bother to talk about the AWB frequenting a supermarket if it was of no interest to you? MR TSHOANE I knew that we were fighting these people. MR MALAN Did you know that the AWB was also fighting the government, that they were also planting bombs? MR TSHOANE They were not fighting the apartheid government, they were fighting the Africans. MR STEENKAMP Sir, can I take you to page 3 of your application? Mr Chairperson, it's under paragraph 10, 10(d), page 3. Do you have that Sir? It is under the heading: "If so, explain the nature and extent of such benefits", do you see that? MR TSHOANE Yes, I do. MR STEENKAMP I just want to read that for you and ask you for your comment. "Politically and militarily as one AWB members died and also one white policeman was killed" Where did you get this information from? MR TSHOANE I got it from the newspapers. MR STEENKAMP Sir, since when were you a member of APLA and where were you trained? MR TSHOANE I've never been a member of the AWB. MR STEENKAMP No, no, I'm saying APLA. MR TSHOANE I was trained inside the country in Transkei. CHAIRPERSON When did you join APLA? MR TSHOANE I was a member of the task force. MR STEENKAMP Sir, what will your comment be if I tell you that according to the police investigation, and at least a police investigating officer who is present here and if needs be he will come and testify, that you were never a member of APLA but you were only recruited by this gang or group because they needed your transportation and your vehicle? What will your comment be to that? MR TSHOANE I dispute that at all because I'm a member of the, I'm an African. I was trained with the members of the PAC to engage in the political struggle. MR STEENKAMP Can you tell the Committee, what was taken from the shop, was anything taken from the shop? MR TSHOANE We took money. MR STEENKAMP Who took the money and how was it taken, was it taken in bags or what? What happened to the money? MR TSHOANE Yes, it was in the bags in our pockets. MR STEENKAMP And who removed the money from the shop, did all of you do it or was there a specific individual tasked to do it? MR TSHOANE It was taken by those who were inside the shop. MR MALAN You say the money was in your pockets, did you have money in your pockets? MR TSHOANE No, Sir. MR MALAN How do you know the money was in the pockets of others? MR TSHOANE According to the evidence given by Ngesi. MR MALAN I'm not talking evidence Mr Tshoane, we want you to talk about what you know. We heard what Mr Ngesi said. Did you know that money was put in his pocket? Did you hear from his evidence now or did you know it before? MR TSHOANE I heard from his evidence. MR MALAN Did you not know that before he gave evidence? MR TSHOANE No, I did not know before. MR MALAN So you didn't know that money was taken until you heard Mr Ngesi's evidence, is that what you're telling us? MR TSHOANE That is correct. MR MALAN Was it the first time here that you heard that money was taken, when Mr Ngesi gave evidence? MR TSHOANE That is correct. MR MALAN So they didn't tell you at the time, after you drove them away after the shooting, that money was taken? MR TSHOANE No, Sir. MR MALAN And you got no money from them for driving them there? MR TSHOANE Not at all Sir. MR MALAN Thank you. CHAIRPERSON You were tried for this offence weren't you? You've been asked about what was said at the trial. MR TSHOANE That is correct Sir. CHAIRPERSON Wasn't evidence led about the money that was stolen at the trial? MR TSHOANE Yes, they did. CHAIRPERSON Well how could you say a minute ago to my colleague here, that you heard about money here for the first time? That was a lie wasn't it, you heard about it at the trial. MR TSHOANE Yes, even here. I did not see money at all. CHAIRPERSON You weren't asked about seeing money, you were asked if you heard about money. MR TSHOANE Yes, I heard about it. CHAIRPERSON But why did you tell my colleague here that you didn't here about it until you heard the evidence here. He asked you several times to make it quite clear and you said you didn't know about the money before, you heard about the money here. MR TSHOANE This thing happened a long time ago, it's five years and I forget some of the things. CHAIRPERSON Are you now suggesting that you forgot that you were charged with robbery and convicted of robbery which involved the stealing of R4 000, and that evidence was led about this at your trial? Are you seriously suggesting to us that you forgot this? MR TSHOANE According to them I was charged with robbery although I did not take part in robbery. We went there to take money which will help to enhance the struggle for liberation. CHAIRPERSON So you now say you know you went there to take money? MR TSHOANE That is correct. CHAIRPERSON And yet you've just a minute ago said you've forgotten about the money because it happened a long time ago. That is what he said, isn't it? MR MBANDAZAYO Correct, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Can you explain? MR TSHOANE May you please repeat your question. CHAIRPERSON Can you explain why, when you've now just told me you went there to get money for the liberation? MR TSHOANE That is so. CHAIRPERSON So how could you say before that: "It happened a long time ago, I forgot about the money"? No explanation, carry on. MR MALAN May I just take this further please Chair. There may be some misunderstanding. My initial question related to the money being carried in their pockets, you had no knowledge of that, that is what you told me, is that correct? MR TSHOANE That is correct Sir. MR MALAN And if I understood you correctly, you were waiting outside in the car, you didn't know that they took money, is that correct? MR TSHOANE That is correct. MR MALAN And your evidence was that the instructions given by Bhani to Ngesi and to Zuko was only to shoot? MR TSHOANE That is correct. MR MALAN He gave no instructions that money was to be taken at that stage? MR TSHOANE Money was part of the mission. MR MALAN How did you know that? We know it was part of the mission, from their evidence, my question is, did you know it then? MR TSHOANE I did not know anything at that time. MR MALAN But this is the point Mr Tshoane, I want you to give evidence only on what you know or knew at the time, don't give us the evidence that we can get from the other people. We want your story and we want your full disclosure of what you know. You in your evidence in chief said that the instructions while you were driving, the briefing, was to Ngesi to shoot, only instruction, to Zuko, to shoot, only instruction, you now said there was no instruction at the time that you heard of that money was to be taken, is that correct? MR TSHOANE The instruction given was to shoot. MR MALAN There was no instruction at that time that you heard of, that money was to be taken, is that correct? MR TSHOANE The instruction given was to shoot. MR MALAN And at the time of the incident you had no knowledge of money, of any money, is that what you're telling us? MR TSHOANE That is correct. MR MALAN You did not know that they had money in their pockets? MR TSHOANE I did not see any money and I didn't know about it. MR MALAN And when you dropped them at the location, as you gave evidence, and you and Sibanda continued, you had no knowledge of any money. MR TSHOANE Yes, I did not know anything about money. MR MALAN Thank you. ADV SIGODI Mr Tshoane, when you were told to drive the others, what were you told was the purpose of going to that supermarket? MR TSHOANE The objective of going to that supermarket was going to fight those who were oppressing us in our land. ADV SIGODI So you were driving the others to go and fight, was that the purpose of driving the others to the supermarket? MR TSHOANE My reason for driving them to the supermarket was for going to fight. ADV SIGODI That is only shoot the people you would find in the supermarket, do I hear you correctly? MR TSHOANE That is correct. ADV SIGODI Only? MR TSHOANE Yes, to shoot them. ADV SIGODI Was that the only purpose? MR TSHOANE Because we were involved in the armed struggle our reason was to shoot them and to take money. That is how we were operating then. CHAIRPERSON So did you know the purpose was to shoot them and to take money? MR TSHOANE That is correct. ADV SIGODI So did you expect the others to have taken money or didn't you expect them to have taken money, when they left the supermarket, after the shooting? MR TSHOANE I did not know. CHAIRPERSON Did you expect them to have done so? You have told us a minute ago that the purpose was to go there to shoot people and to take money, did you expect them to do that? MR TSHOANE That is how we were operating then. That is how we were operating during that time of oppression. CHAIRPERSON So that it what you expected, for them to shoot and to take money? MR TSHOANE That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Had you taken part in other such operations? MR TSHOANE No. CHAIRPERSON But you knew that that is how they operated? - "That is how we operated at the time" MR TSHOANE My main function there was just to drive them that time. CHAIRPERSON You have just told me that you knew, or you told the Committee, that to shoot and take money was how you operated during this time, the period of your oppression. Do you remember telling us that a minute or two ago? MR TSHOANE Yes, I do remember. CHAIRPERSON How did you know, you'd never been on an operation before, how did you know that this is how they operated? MR TSHOANE My superiors told me that way. CHAIRPERSON Who? MR TSHOANE That is Mr Khotle. CHAIRPERSON Did he tell you that on this occasion? MR TSHOANE He told me many times. He told me about many things that were happening in our organisation. MR STEENKAMP Sir, I in my possession a statement which you made to the police, which I gladly hand in the moment I'm able to make copies. According to the statement, your warning statement to the police ...[intervention] MR MBANDAZAYO Mr Chairman, I think it will be unfair to put that statement without ourselves also not having an insight to that statement, taken too that we have not been put in possession of that statement. CHAIRPERSON So he's being cross-examined on it, you'll see it. I gather Mr Steenkamp has not seen it before now. MR MBANDAZAYO Mr Chairman, my objection is that also I think even before that we are supposed to be given such information. CHAIRPERSON Have you asked for any? MR MBANDAZAYO I've asked Mr Steenkamp yesterday. I told him that he must give us everything that is in his possession which he is going to use here. I've told him - he was here, I told him ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON How long do you require to read this statement? Five minutes? MR MBANDAZAYO Well Mr Chairman, it definitely won't be long. It depends, if it's one page it could be two minutes Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Pass it to him. How long is it Mr Steenkamp? MR STEENKAMP Sir, it took me five minutes to read. It's about 7 or 8 pages. CHAIRPERSON Carry on. ...[inaudible] MR MBANDAZAYO Definitely Mr Chairman, I ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Very well, we'll take the short adjournment now and then we can continue uninterrupted I hope. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE (s.u.o.) CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] MR MBANDAZAYO Yes, Mr Chairman, I had an opportunity to go through it with my client, thank you Mr Chairman. MR STEENKAMP Thank you for your indulgence Mr Chairman, Honourable Members. If I may just ask a few questions on this statement, if you would allow me. CHAIRPERSON Well before you do that, let us do a little bit of tidying up. I would suggest that we mark the statement from Mr Pedro Inaquio de Costa: A1, the affidavit made by him: A2 and the statement by Jau Avelina de Castro: A3. And that we now mark this statement, Exhibit B. MR STEENKAMP Thank you Mr Chairman. Sir, you had the opportunity to read and go through this statement, am I right? MR TSHOANE ...[inaudible] INTERPRETER The speaker's mike is not on. MR TSHOANE Yes, that is correct. MR STEENKAMP Sir, do you agree or do you confirm that this was a statement that you've made to the police, am I correct? MR TSHOANE I did this statement under duress. I was beaten, I was assaulted before I made this statement. MR STEENKAMP So, can you just explain to us where the police got this information from, the detailed information about the incident? MR TSHOANE They got this information from the informer. MR STEENKAMP And who was this person, do you know? MR TSHOANE Moses Leglogiso. MR STEENKAMP Please help me if I'm wrong, this statement was never contested in the Supreme Court in the way you're doing now, am I right? MR TSHOANE That is correct. MR STEENKAMP So why didn't you contest this statement in the Supreme Court when you had the opportunity to do so? Why didn't you tell the learned Judge, the Presiding Officer, that you were actually assaulted, and that this information came from the informer? MR TSHOANE I tried to explain in court but they did not listen to me, they dismissed my statement. CHAIRPERSON Are you saying that you tried to explain at your trial that you had been assaulted before you made this statement and accordingly it shouldn't be admissible but they just dismissed your statement, paid no regard to it? MR TSHOANE That is what I'm saying Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Were you defended? MR TSHOANE Yes, I was. CHAIRPERSON Who by? MR TSHOANE That is Mr Mavundla. MR MALAN Are you saying that the facts in this statement is not true? MR TSHOANE Not at all Sir. MR MALAN Can you tell us what specifically is not true in this statement? MR TSHOANE The statement in total. MR MALAN What was the car that you drove with? What make and model? MR TSHOANE That is a 1400 Datsun. MR MALAN Was it a bakkie or a delivery van or what was it? MR TSHOANE It was a van. MR MALAN Are you saying in the statement that you drove with a van or are you describing a different car? Is that car correct, the reference to the car in the statement? MR TSHOANE That is correct, that is true, I was driving a 1400 Datsun van. MR MALAN You referred to Danny going with you? MR TSHOANE That is correct. MR MALAN Now why do you say the statement in total is incorrect. MR TSHOANE Police asked me about what they already know because if you look on the date, I was arrested on the 19th, then on the 3rd and then they started assaulting me on the 4th. They forced me to make this statement. MR MALAN Let's except that for the moment, that they forced you, the question is, what is incorrect in this statement, can you tell us what is not true? What in the statement is not true? MR TSHOANE The whole statement. MR MALAN Did you not go in the car that you described here? Were you describing a different car? MR TSHOANE I was explaining about the same car which I was driving and the police knew that I was driving the same car. MR MALAN Did you stop, as you say in your statement, in front of the supermarket? MR TSHOANE That is correct. MR MALAN Did you hear gunshots while you were waiting in the car? MR TSHOANE That is correct. MR MALAN Did you leave the scene when they came out, dropped them off, as you say here? MR TSHOANE That is correct Sir. MR MALAN Now what is not correct? What in your statement is untrue, can you point out anything that you said in your statement that is not true? MR TSHOANE All those things which were said by Leglogiso, told them, they forced me to agree with. MR MALAN Which things, mention them. MR TSHOANE To make an example - I didn't want to explain to them what happened. If I were to tell them the truth I would be killed. MR MALAN But make an example of what was not true. CHAIRPERSON Well did you drive to the supermarket or did Danny? MR TSHOANE Yes, I drove. CHAIRPERSON So it's not true to say Danny drove, as you say in the statement, that was not true? MR TSHOANE Yes, Sir. CHAIRPERSON And did Danny move the car after the shooting to another parking place? MR TSHOANE No, I was the one who was driving. CHAIRPERSON Did you go to a corrugated-iron house? MR TSHOANE Yes, I did. CHAIRPERSON Is that where the guns were collected? MR TSHOANE That is correct, that is where I left the guns. CHAIRPERSON Were the guns collected there before? MR TSHOANE Yes, we collected the guns there. CHAIRPERSON So the guns weren't brought from Welkom or anything? MR TSHOANE We brought three guns from Welkom. CHAIRPERSON Well how did they get to the corrugated-iron house, you said you collected them from there? MR TSHOANE We took them there when we returned from the supermarket. CHAIRPERSON Before you went to the supermarket, did you collect guns? MR TSHOANE We had three guns and then we took two guns from the corrugated-iron house. MR MALAN So then you had five guns? MR TSHOANE That is correct. MR MALAN Why did you take five guns? MR TSHOANE They were going to be used by the people who were supposed to use them. MR MALAN Were there five people supposed to be using guns? MR TSHOANE May you please repeat your question Sir? MR MALAN You say the five guns were supposed to be used by the people who were participating. Now the question is, were there five people? MR TSHOANE The other gun was left in the car. MR MALAN So did four people take guns and move in? MR TSHOANE That is correct. MR MALAN Who were they? MR TSHOANE That Zuko, Ngesi, Bhani and Khotle. MR MALAN Did Mr Khotle also go into the shop, into the supermarket? MR TSHOANE I don't remember well Sir. MR MALAN This is important, surely you know? Did Mr Khotle travel with you to the supermarket? MR TSHOANE I don't remember Sir, I'm now confused, I don't remember. MR MALAN You told us now that four people took guns and went into the shop. You named them freely, you said it was Zuko, Ngesi, Bhani and Khotle. Can someone please attend to the message here from the interpreters? Mr Tshoane, you said that five guns were taken in the van. MR TSHOANE Yes, I now hear. MR MALAN You say five guns were taken in the van? MR TSHOANE I don't remember well what exactly happened, it is after a long time. MR MALAN Let me take you back. You said that you had three guns, you went to this corrugated-iron house and you took two more guns, so you then had five guns, is that correct? MR TSHOANE That is correct. MR MALAN You said the five guns were to be used by the people who would be participating in this exercise, is that correct? MR TSHOANE That is correct. MR MALAN Then you said only four people took guns, one gun was left in the van, is that correct? MR TSHOANE That is correct. MR MALAN Now who were the four people? MR TSHOANE That is Ngesi, Zuko and Bhani and Sibande. MR MALAN Did Sibande go in? MR TSHOANE He was at the door. MR MALAN He was at the door. MR TSHOANE Yes. MR MALAN And Khotle, did he stay in the car? MR TSHOANE He was not present Sir. CHAIRPERSON Well how did you come to say a few minutes ago that he was one of the people who took a gun? MR TSHOANE I said before that I was confused. CHAIRPERSON No, you didn't, you said you were confused after you were asked about Mr Khotle. MR TSHOANE I made a mistake by saying somebody who was not present. MR MALAN Did you know Zuko, Ngesi and Bhani from before or did you meet them then? MR TSHOANE I knew them before Sir. MR MALAN Did you know them well? MR TSHOANE Yes, Sir. MR MALAN How many of you travelled to the supermarket? MR TSHOANE We were five. MR MALAN In your statement to the police you said all five the persons got out of the car, now who were: "all five"? MR TSHOANE As I've already explained about the statement, I made that statement under pressure because they forced me to make that statement. They were leading me with the information because they knew, therefore I had to write what they knew or what they wanted me to write because I did not have any option, I had to do that. MR MALAN Did you tell them that there were not five people but yourself, Sibande and three others? Did you tell them that? MR TSHOANE I told them they way I did because they were assaulting me and they were leading me with the information so I had to verify what they told me. They took me to the police station to make a confession statement, then they said I should make this statement. MR MALAN So you did not offer any information to them, you didn't tell them anything? MR TSHOANE Yes, they told me to write what is in the statement because I didn't co-operate with them. MR MALAN And if I heard you correctly you said to Mr Steenkamp that this was not raised in your defence at the court case? MR TSHOANE That is correct. MR MALAN The question was, why didn't you tell them at the court case that this statement was made, that you were led with this statement, that you didn't co-operate at all? MR TSHOANE I briefed my lawyer about that. CHAIRPERSON Did you give evidence at your trial? MR TSHOANE Yes, I did. CHAIRPERSON Were you questioned about this statement? MR TSHOANE I disputed the statement in court. CHAIRPERSON Were you questioned about it when you gave evidence? MR TSHOANE Yes. I resisted and I disputed, that this is a statement made by the police whilst they were assaulting me. MR MALAN Did the police tell you to put in your statement that Danny drove the vehicle? MR TSHOANE I told them because they were assaulting me, I didn't have any other option. CHAIRPERSON The question was, did the police tell you to say that? MR TSHOANE Yes, they were leading me with that information because they knew everything about me. CHAIRPERSON Well if they knew everything about you, does that mean Danny did drive the motorcar? MR TSHOANE They were assaulting me, I didn't have any other option. I ended up by saying whatever they say I would agree with them. CHAIRPERSON Yes, but you've just said: "The police were leading me with information because they knew all about me". That would imply that the information they were leading you with was correct. MR TSHOANE It was not true because it was received from the third person, not from me. MR STEENKAMP Did you have ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON So you say the police did tell you that? MR TSHOANE That is correct. MR STEENKAMP Did you have a driver's licence at that time? MR TSHOANE No, I did not. MR STEENKAMP Do you have it now? MR TSHOANE No, Madam. MR STEENKAMP So when you said that you refused to drive because you did not have a driver's licence and you told that Danny should drive, was that true or was that not true? MR TSHOANE That was not correct, that was not true. I wanted them to leave because what they were saying came from the informer. ...[no English translation] Moses Leglogiso. MR MALAN Did Moses know that you did not have a driver's licence? MR TSHOANE That is correct. MR MALAN How did he know that? MR TSHOANE He was my friend whom I was staying with. MR MALAN How did Moses know of the detail? MR TSHOANE I don't know Sir. CHAIRPERSON He wasn't there was he? MR TSHOANE He was not there. CHAIRPERSON So he couldn't have described where you stopped, he wouldn't have known that you went to a corrugated-iron house to collect weapons or matters of that nature, would he? MR TSHOANE Maybe he was told by the police. CHAIRPERSON Were the police there? MR TSHOANE They were not present. MR STEENKAMP Did you see ...[intervention] MR MALAN You see Mr Tshoane, you must really make up your mind. Either Moses told the police and he was an informer or the police told Moses, now which story do you believe? MR TSHOANE It's that there was something which was done by the police and Mohoje about me. So Mohoje sold me to the police. That is the plan they did against me. MR MALAN Yes, but you tell us that Moses was not with you when you went to the Supermarket, so Moses would not have known this detail, so Moses could not have been the informer. When that was pointed out to you then you say: "But the police told Moses". Moses didn't make this statement, you made this statement. Where does Moses figure in this whole equation? MR TSHOANE I said before that the police led me with the information. Some of the information came from the police, some of the police might come from Moses. MR MALAN What information here could have come from Moses, because this statement deals with the shooting and the robbery and the run-up to that but Moses wasn't involved. How would he have known it? MR TSHOANE Maybe Moses learnt from Daniso. MR MALAN Okay, if Moses learnt from Daniso, Daniso went with you. MR TSHOANE That is correct, he went with me. MR MALAN So he knew what happened? MR TSHOANE Do you mean Mohoje? Maybe they had a conversation about that because they stayed in one place and they met on regular times. MR MALAN You're not hearing me. If the source of the information of the police, as you have told us, was indeed Daniso ...[intervention] MR TSHOANE He was not arrested. Daniso was never arrested. MR MALAN I know he was not arrested but he was there. MR TSHOANE Maybe they were, they had a conversation with Mohoje about that issue but I never said that to Mohoje myself. MR MALAN Thank you. CHAIRPERSON You say that this statement was probably a plot against you. MR TSHOANE That is correct. CHAIRPERSON But as I read the statement, nowhere in it do you admit knowing of the plan, that you drove them there to assist them in the robbery, that you had any part in it. Your statement is, as I understand it, that you were being paid R50 to drive them to a farm and that only as you went along they told you to go further and further and that then Danny took over the driving and drove to the scene of the crime. That is what they statement says isn't it? MR TSHOANE What is written on the statement I do not agree with all because I made this statement under duress. These people were leading me into saying what they wanted me to say. CHAIRPERSON Yes, but what I find hard to accept is that nowhere have they led you into saying that you were a party to this robbery, have they? There's nothing in the statement to say they told me what the plan was, they asked me if I could drive them to where they were going to rob and kill people. There's no such mention is there? MR TSHOANE It is because that is not my statement. CHAIRPERSON They point I'm trying to make is that is it is a police statement which they made to get at you, they would have made you say something that implicated you. MR TSHOANE What I was writing and what they asked me to say, I did that because I wanted to get out of trouble. It is true that they were leading me, everything that they were asking. They told me that their informer told them about me. CHAIRPERSON Carry on. MR STEENKAMP No further questions, thank you Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STEENKAMP CHAIRPERSON Re-examination? RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO Thank you Mr Chairman. Just before - I will start where Mr Chairman left off Mr tshoane. Can you tell the Committee, when you were making this statement you allege that you were led to say what the police were saying. In what language were you communicating with the police? MR TSHOANE We were using Sotho. MR MBANDAZAYO Is the person you were giving the statement to, who was taking your statement down, was he a Sotho speaking person? MR TSHOANE He was speaking Sotho yes, but not very fluent Sotho. MR MBANDAZAYO And whilst you were speaking he translated in Afrikaans? MR TSHOANE He was not fluent in Sesotho because I could not understand what he was saying. He never translated into Afrikaans. MR MBANDAZAYO Okay. Let me put is this way, there was no interpreter, it was yourself and de Jongh? MR TSHOANE That is correct. MR MBANDAZAYO So when you were speaking to him you thought he was writing it in Sesotho, what he was writing? MR TSHOANE Yes, I was thinking that he was writing in Sesotho. MR MBANDAZAYO Was the statement read back to you after you have talked to him, finished talking to him about the incident? MR TSHOANE He never read that statement to me. MR MBANDAZAYO You were just made to sign after you had finished talking? MR TSHOANE That is correct. MR MBANDAZAYO Now the other point I want to clear to the Committee is ...[intervention] MR MALAN Sorry, just before you proceed, I'm not sure that I understand the leading of this evidence. Is the contention that the contents was not disclosed to him at the time and therefore he didn't even know of this? Because his earlier evidence was saying: yes, this is indeed what was said but this was forced upon him. He did not dispute the contents. He confirmed the contents as he was led, not necessarily as the fact. MR MBANDAZAYO Through you Mr Chairman. I don't necessary mean that what I'm trying to put across to the Committee is that though the statement is before the Committee, he admits that is so. There may be a possibility that that's not what actually ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON There may be a possibility of a slight error in translation, but hasn't he agreed with the bulk of what was said, and his explanation each time was: "That is what the police said, that is what the informer told them". He hasn't once suggested that wasn't what was said at all. You are now trying to find another basis on which to attack this statement. MR MBANDAZAYO Mr Chairman, it is not necessary that I want to attack the statement, but even so, as he admitted, that indeed is what transpired. But definitely even if it is, there was a problem of communication, the statement. That is what I'm trying to put across. I'm not necessarily saying that he disputes what is in the statement. He has already told the Committee that. I was led to make that, I was told that they know about that. I'm not saying that he did not say that Mr Chairman, I'm in no way disputing that Mr Chairman. MR MALAN Sorry, if I may just ask Mr Tshoane, did Mr de Jongh, the investigative officer, did he speak Sotho to you? MR TSHOANE He was speaking Sotho but he was not fluent in Sesotho. MR MALAN But he could speak Sotho, he could speak Sesotho? MR TSHOANE Yes, he could speak Sotho. MR MALAN And you understood what he was saying? MR TSHOANE I didn't understand everything what he was saying. MR MALAN But you said he led you on this statement and you haven't disputed the contents on the basis of which he supposedly had led you. CHAIRPERSON Did Mr de Jongh lead you on this statement or did the other policemen lead you before they took you to Mr de Jongh? MR TSHOANE That is de Jongh himself. CHAIRPERSON He led you, he told you what to say? MR TSHOANE Yes, that is correct. The other policemen were also present. When I refused they were assaulting me. MR MALAN Mr Tshoane, when you refused what? MR TSHOANE When they wanted the whole information. MR MALAN And did you then give them the whole information? MR TSHOANE The information did not come from me, I never gave them any information. MR MALAN I'm not sure that I understand you. Either they gave you information which you agreed to because you were led or refused when they assaulted you. MR TSHOANE I refused some of the things that they were telling me, so when I refused they will assault me. Then I decided that it will be better for me if I agree with everything that they were doing, in order to stop the assault. CHAIRPERSON Well what did you mean when you said: "They wanted the whole information"? MR TSHOANE They wanted to know what happened at the supermarket. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR MBANDAZAYO Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Tshoane, I was on the part of your trial. You told the Committee that you disputed this statement in the trial, and you were asked by Mr Chairman where you gave evidence in your trial, did you give evidence in your trial? MR TSHOANE I don't understand your question well, can you please repeat your question? MR MBANDAZAYO Let me put it this way; you were charged in the High Court here in Bloemfontein, and there were many of you, together with the applicants, Bhani, Ngesi, yourself and Mohape, four of you. You stood trial for the Wesselsbron incident, is that correct? MR TSHOANE That is correct. MR MBANDAZAYO Did any of you give evidence in the trial? MR TSHOANE That is correct. MR MBANDAZAYO Do you still remember clearly what happened in the High Court? MR TSHOANE Many things happened, some of them I don't remember well. MR MBANDAZAYO The reason why I'm asking you is that according to the judgment of the case is that none of you gave evidence in the trial, in your trial. That is why I'm asking you whether you still remember what actually happened in your trial. MR TSHOANE That is what I'm saying, I don't remember. CHAIRPERSON But when I asked you you said that you did give evidence at your trial. In fact you went on to say more than that. You said that you disputed the statement at your trial but the court rejected it, as I understand you said. Do you remember telling us that this morning, not a long time ago? MR TSHOANE I am now confused because you have asked me so many questions and so many things happened in the past, I can't remember them very well. I'm getting confused now. MR MBANDAZAYO In fact Mr Tshoane, it is true what is said by Mr Chairman, that you said that you gave trial and you also disputed your statement in the trial. That is what you told Mr Chairman when he was asking you. Now that is why I was asking you whether you still remember so that you're clear. And also the Judge in his judgment says that none of you gave evidence in the trial, that is why I'm asking you. MR TSHOANE ...[no English translation] MR MBANDAZAYO Did you give evidence in your trial? Okay let me put it this way, maybe you don't understand what I mean when I'm saying you gave evidence. Were you taken to a stand and you were sworn in as it has been done here, after all the state has led its evidence in the court and told to give your version of the events at the supermarket, was that done? MR TSHOANE That is correct. CHAIRPERSON You've got your answer. MR MALAN May I just ask, sorry, I want to ask it now so that you can follow on if necessary. When you drove them to the supermarket it was your van, it was quite a way that you had to drive, did you pay for your own petrol or did they pay for the petrol? Did they give you money for the petrol? MR TSHOANE My car already had petrol, enough to drive there, and then when we arrived at Odendaal I put in some petrol again. MR MALAN Who paid for that petrol? MR TSHOANE Sibanda paid for the petrol. MR MALAN Can you remember what the petrol cost you when you came back, that Sibanda paid for? MR TSHOANE He paid about R50,00. MR MALAN Thank you. MR MBANDAZAYO Thank you Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MBANDAZAYO CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR STEENKAMP Mr Chairman, maybe in the meantime I beg leave to submit another statement, the statement of Mr Stefanus Johannes Hugo who was the investigating officer. He is present here today. It's a statement of his regarding this issue, and can that be marked Exhibit C? CHAIRPERSON C1. MR STEENKAMP C1. I beg your pardon Mr Chairman. I've handed a copy to my learned colleague here. The original is in your possession Mr Chairman. Thank you Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, I said C1, because we were in fact handed - oh, one is a copy, well then C. Sorry, I thought we'd been handed two statements. MR STEENKAMP It's only the original and a copy for yourself Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] MR STEENKAMP Sure Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON I don't know if you've had a chance of reading it either. I think we can all take a minute or two to read it. MR MALAN Mr Steenkamp, the exhibit is only two pages. The document appears to be an affidavit but it's not dated or taken under oath. MR STEENKAMP That is correct Mr Chairman, if necessary I can call the investigating officer to confirm this statement. It was actually drafted today, a few minutes back but that can be amended if necessary. MR MALAN When was this statement made? MR STEENKAMP It was made today Mr Chairman. MR MALAN Today. CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] to Stanley Mohale. I take it that is Stanley Tshoane who has just given evidence? MR STEENKAMP That's correct Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Carry on. MR MBANDAZAYO Mr Chairman, unless there is anything more? CHAIRPERSON I think we have finished with this applicant. WITNESS EXCUSED