amntrans AMNESTY HEARING 1998-08-19 BLOEMFONTEIN 3 GEORGE THABANG MAZETE WESSELSBRON SUPERMARKET ATTACK https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=52821&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1998/98081721_blm_bloem3.htm MR MBANDAZAYO Mr Chairman, the next applicant will be George Thabang Mazete. CHAIRPERSON What language do you speak? MR MAZETE Sotho Sir. CHAIRPERSON Do you have any objection to taking the oath? MR MAZETE What is your question Sir? CHAIRPERSON Do you have any objection to taking the oath? GEORGE THABANG MAZETE (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON What are your full names? MR MAZETE George Thabang Mazete. EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Mazete, you have an affidavit in front of you which is also before the Committee. Do you confirm that the affidavit which is before you was made by yourself and you abide by its contents? MR MAZETE That is correct Sir. MR MBANDAZAYO Mr Chairman, I will go to paragraph 6 of the affidavit. Mr Mazete, I'll read the second line, the third line of paragraph 6: "I confirm that I drew up the map of the Wesselsbron Supermarket at the request of comrade Bhani. I also confirm that the arms were left in my place after the operation, though I did not know when they left them. I then realised after I heard of the attack, that the map I drew up and the arms that were dropped at my place on the day of the attack, were used in the operation at Wesselsbron" I want you Mr Mazete, to take the Committee starting when you started drawing up the map, your role you played, the circumstances which led you to drawing the map of the Wesselsbron Supermarket. MR MAZETE As a member of the task force within the PAC, many things which we were taught as members of the task force is that we should know to do reconnaissance and that is why I was able to draw the map. I think that is all. MR MBANDAZAYO Can you tell the Committee the reason why you drew up this map? MR MAZETE To add on what I already said, as a member of the task force in every operation or in any work which you're supposed to do as a member of the task force which the organisation wanted to do, that is why I was able to do the map for them, of the supermarket. CHAIRPERSON Will you answer the question once again. Why did you draw up this map? MR MAZETE It is because I was instructed by comrade Bhani. MR MBANDAZAYO Did you know the reason why - did he tell you the reason why he instructed you to draw up the map? MR MAZETE No, Sir. MR MBANDAZAYO Did you ask him: "Why are you saying I must draw up the map of Wesselsbron Supermarket, yet you know it" - I take it that you were all in Wesselsbron. Didn't you ask him: "Why should I draw up a map when you know the supermarket"? MR MAZETE No, I did not. MR MBANDAZAYO Now ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Did you think you knew why? MR MAZETE After that I thought that he wanted to do something about the map, even if I did not know exactly what. CHAIRPERSON Well about the map or about the Wesselsbron Supermarket? MR MAZETE About the map. MR MBANDAZAYO After the - let me ask you this way first, did you know that the Wesselsbron Supermarket is to be attacked? MR MAZETE No, I did not. MR MBANDAZAYO I understand that the weapons, according to your affidavit, is that they dropped weapons after the incident at Wesselsbron Supermarket. Did you know that when they were dropping the weapons that they were coming from attacking Wesselsbron Supermarket? MR MAZETE No, I did not know. MR MBANDAZAYO Did they tell you the reason why they were dropping weapons at your place? MR MAZETE They did not tell me, they just request me that I should put those weapons in my house. MR MBANDAZAYO Can you tell the Committee at what stage you realised that the map and the weapons were used at Wesselsbron? MR MAZETE After they were arrested and I was arrested, when we were in the police station, that is when I started to know. That is when I started to know that those things were used for the attack. MR MBANDAZAYO At what stage did you hear about the news of the attack at the Wesselsbron Supermarket? MR MAZETE On a Sunday the following day. MR MBANDAZAYO Did you not, after you heard the news, think that this map and the weapons which were dropped were used in the attack, were the ones which were used in the attack? Did you not suspect that or think about that? MR MAZETE Yes, I did suspect that they were used for this attack. MR MBANDAZAYO And you became sure after the arrest, that indeed they were used in the attack? MR MAZETE That is correct. MR MBANDAZAYO Mr Chairman, if there are no further questions I will proceed to paragraph 7. CHAIRPERSON Well I have a few questions that I think in the interest of your client we might get. You have told us that comrade Bhani instructed you to draw up this map. MR MAZETE That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Was comrade Bhani a member of any organisation that you knew of? MR MAZETE He was a member of the PAC and APLA. CHAIRPERSON And who dropped the weapons at your house? MR MAZETE That is Bhani, comrade Bhani. MR MBANDAZAYO Thank you Mr Chairman. I will proceed to paragraph 7 as I indicated Mr Chairman. ADV SIGODI Sorry, do you know - was it discussed with you later, after the attack, how the map which you drew up was of assistance to the people who attacked the supermarket? MR MAZETE No, I was not. MR MALAN May I just ask you, the map of the supermarket that you drew up, was that a map of the supermarket inside or was it the location of the supermarket on the streets? What was this map consisting of? MR MAZETE The inside of the supermarket. MR MALAN When did he ask you to draw this? MR MAZETE If I remember well I think it was around March or towards the end of March or maybe the beginning of April, towards the end of April. MR MALAN So it was long before the attack, is that what you are saying? MR MAZETE Yes, not that much. It's not that long. CHAIRPERSON Well, almost three months. MR MAZETE It might be even in May because it was not a long time. I don't remember well but I don't think it was such a long time, the duration between the drawing of the map and the attack. MR MALAN Did comrade Bhani know the supermarket then? MR MAZETE I don't know, but he asked me to draw that map. I don't know whether he knew the supermarket. MR MALAN Did you assist you in drawing up the map? Did you do it in his presence in other words? MR MAZETE Yes, he was present. MR MALAN Did he discuss with you and give you directions while you were drawing the map? MR MAZETE No. MR MALAN He didn't comment at all, is that what you are saying? MR MAZETE No, he was quiet whilst I was drawing the map. MR MALAN Do you know whether he had been into that supermarket himself before? MR MAZETE No, I don't know. MR MALAN Did he not tell you? MR MAZETE He did not. MR MALAN Before you drew up the map did you go into the supermarket to check? MR MAZETE You mean myself or him? MR MALAN No, yourself. MR MAZETE No, Sir. MR MALAN On what basis did you know the supermarket that well? MR MAZETE I knew it well because I'm a resident there in the nearby township. MR MALAN Do you yourself often buy at the supermarket or did you then? MR MAZETE Yes, mostly. MR MALAN Regularly? MR MAZETE Yes, many times. MR MALAN And other comrades of yours, did they buy there? MR MAZETE Yes, because they were residents there in Monyake. MR MALAN So the supermarket was frequented also by APLA and PAC supporters? MR MAZETE I don't know members of APLA but members of the PAC used to go, many of them used to go to that supermarkets as it's one of the supermarkets in the surrounding area in Wesselsbron. MR MALAN Mr Steenkamp indicated that he would be leading evidence that almost 90% of the shoppers at that supermarket were black people, can you confirm that? MR MAZETE Yes, that is correct. MR MALAN The other 10% I assume would then not be black. Did you ever see people in uniform at the supermarket when you were shopping? MR MAZETE Sometimes yes, I used to see them during the day and during the night. MR MALAN In the supermarket is the question? MR MAZETE Yes, that is correct. MR MALAN What uniforms are you talking about? MR MAZETE You'd find that those are white people who would dress in khaki uniform. MR MALAN Police uniform? MR MAZETE That is correct, they used to come in their uniform to come and buy. MR MALAN The khaki, was that uniforms or khaki clothes? MR MAZETE Those are normal clothes but the way I knew is that they were specific people who used to dress in khaki clothes, that is white people. MR MALAN You're not talking of uniforms, like official police uniforms or officers uniforms? When you talk about khaki uniforms you're talking about khaki clothes? Am I hearing you correctly, I don't want to lead you on this, I'm asking. MR MAZETE I spoke of normal khaki clothes. MR MALAN Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Do I understand you that this was a busy supermarket, most of the customers were black who lived in the area and there were also some white customers, some in khaki, some policemen, who went there to do their shopping? MR MAZETE Those blacks who used to come there with khaki clothes on are students but many of those who used to clad in khaki clothes are white people. CHAIRPERSON White students? MR MAZETE I mean black students. CHAIRPERSON They were black students? And they were there to do their shopping? MR MAZETE Yes, that is correct, they used to come there and buy, maybe after school. CHAIRPERSON And the whites came to buy as you did? MR MAZETE That is correct. ADV SIGODI This supermarket, was it near a taxi rank? MR MAZETE Please repeat. ADV SIGODI Was it near a taxi rank? MR MAZETE That is correct. ADV SIGODI Do you know the last time the taxi would leave for the township? MR MAZETE Around 7 o'clock at night. MR MBANDAZAYO Thank you Mr Chairman, may I proceed? MR MALAN Sorry, just one last question. Do you know what time the supermarket closed? MR MAZETE Yes. MR MALAN What time was that? MR MAZETE Around 8 o'clock at night. MR MALAN Thank you. MR MBANDAZAYO Thank you Mr Chairman. I move to paragraph 7, Mr Chairman. "I further confirm that I later gave the weapons to Paulos Mohlolo Mohape for safekeeping. There were people coming to stay with me" Now can you tell the Committee, after how long did you give these weapons to Mohape, after the incident? How long after the incident did you give them to him? MR MAZETE Around a month. MR MBANDAZAYO Did you tell him about these weapons, anything about them, that maybe they were used, the operation or what? MR MAZETE No, I only told him about these weapons. CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] told him about? MR MBANDAZAYO He only told him about the weapons. Now you told him, what did you him about the weapons? MR MAZETE I said to him that he should help me to keep them safe because there were people who would be coming. MR MBANDAZAYO How long after the incident at Wesselsbron Supermarket were you arrested? MR MAZETE Approximately four months. MR MBANDAZAYO Mr Mazete, it transpired during evidence before the court, if I'm not mistaken, that a certain amount was left with you after this incident, after the attack at Wesselsbron Supermarket. MR MAZETE That is not true. MR MBANDAZAYO Also can you confirm, were you paid a certain amount of money for keeping the weapons or for assisting in the whole operation at Wesselsbron Supermarket? MR MAZETE That is not correct. MR MBANDAZAYO Now, did you hear about this evidence - coming to my first point, did you hear anything in court about the evidence that an amount of about R9 000 was left with you after the incident? MR MAZETE Yes, I did hear, I made that statement. CHAIRPERSON You did what? MR MBANDAZAYO You just said now in your evidence that you made that statement and that an amount of R9 000 was left with you ...[intervention] MR MAZETE That is correct. MR MBANDAZAYO And also if I'm not mistaken you also said that you were given an amount, you received R50 after it has been counted ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON He didn't say that to us. MR MBANDAZAYO Mr Chairman, I was - thank you, Mr Chairman it was myself who mixed it with the - I'm just looking at the court record, I wanted him to answer both of them. You have not yet said that, so I wanted to know whether you did make this statement again, that you were given R50 after the amount has been counted? MR MAZETE That was under certain circumstances, that is why I made those statements. MR MBANDAZAYO Now what I want from you, now that you confirmed that this transpired during the court proceedings ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Was this during your trial that you said this? MR MAZETE That is before I was tried in court, after I was arrested. MR MBANDAZAYO Now you have just told the Committee just before this, that the only that was left with you were arms and nothing else. Now can you tell the Committee, why did you now make a statement to say that an amount of R9 000 was left with you and you were also give R50 after the amount was counted? MR MAZETE Because I was tortured by the police. I spoke about this money so that they would leave me alone. MR MBANDAZAYO Mr Chairman, I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MBANDAZAYO CHAIRPERSON It's now 1 o'clock. Have you had a copy of this statement? MR STEENKAMP No Sir, I haven't seen this statement at all. CHAIRPERSON I take it it will be supplied to you in the same way as you have supplied copies? MR MBANDAZAYO Mr Chairman, just before that I was reading the court record Mr Chairman. I indicated that it transpired during the court - it's from the court record Mr Chairman. I indicated that according to judge there is an amount of ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON I understood you put to the last witness that nobody gave evidence. MR MBANDAZAYO Mr Chairman, definitely I put it that way but I said that it transpired during the court proceedings, that this evidence transpired during the court evidence, the court proceedings. CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] it was being be put by him, the statements made by him? MR MBANDAZAYO ...[inaudible] CHAIRPERSON You gentlemen can investigate the position. Would a quarter to two suit you? MR MBANDAZAYO Yes, it would suit me. CHAIRPERSON A quarter to two. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION GEORGE THABANG MAZETE (s.u.o.) CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR STEENKAMP ...[inaudible] colleague during the break. Apparently there is no sworn statement that was made or that is available by the applicant. I'll just continue the questioning of the applicant Mr Chairperson. Sir, if I look at your amnesty application, to start there, according to my documents, page 19 or at least it's marked page 19, this is the application of George Thabang Mazete, and to paragraph 9(a) there, I see you're referring to an incident which happened on the 22nd of October 1993. Can I repeat the question for you? MR MAZETE Yes, would you repeat please? MR STEENKAMP Looking at your amnesty application, page 19 which is the first page of your amnesty application, I see there paragraph 9(a) you say this incident apparently occurred on the 22nd of October 1993, is this a mistake? MR MAZETE No, that is not so. MR STEENKAMP So according to you this incident occurred on the 22nd of October 1993, do I understand you correctly? MR MAZETE It did not happen on that day. MR STEENKAMP So that is my question. MR MAZETE Sorry? MR STEENKAMP Is this a mistake? MR MAZETE That is so. MR STEENKAMP Is this the only mistake in your amnesty application or is there anything else you want to point out which is wrong, or is the rest of your application correct? MR MBANDAZAYO Mr Chairman, if I can just be of help not necessarily on the question, if the applicant can be told that the bundle is before him, take the bundle in front of him and open it, the bundle, not the affidavit. Take the bundle, turn to page 19. CHAIRPERSON Page 19 of the bundle is part of the old application of Khotle, isn't it? Oh, you're looking at the other bundle? MR STEENKAMP Sorry Mr Chairman for the inconvenience. CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] not the Wesselsbron Attack but the attack that is marked: "Wesselsbron/Thabu'Nchu Police"? MR STEENKAMP Yes, Mr Chairman. Do you have your application in front of you now? MR MAZETE Yes. MR STEENKAMP Can you just answer my question if possible? Is there anything else you would like to amend or point the Committee's attention to that is wrong in your application or do you still stick to your application as it is? MR MAZETE I don't know. The way I filled this application form I'm satisfied. MR STEENKAMP Well if we can go to page 20 ...[intervention] MR MALAN May I just ask, the handwriting there, is that yours? Did you write this? MR MAZETE No, it's not myself. MR MALAN Who wrote it? MR MAZETE I don't know. MR MALAN Were you present when this form was filled out? MR MAZETE Yes, I was present. MR MALAN But you don't know the person who wrote it? MR MAZETE I know him because he was present when the form was filled. MR MALAN Where was this done? MR MAZETE In Bloemfontein. MR MALAN Where in Bloemfontein? MR MAZETE Grootvlei Maximum Prison. MR MALAN Who was the Commissioner before whom you signed this? MR MAZETE There was no Commissioner who made us taken an oath. MR MALAN Do you someone, Sizane? MR MAZETE It might be the one who filled this form but I don't remember his name well. I don't know the name of the person who filled this form. MR MALAN Do you know a member of parliament? MR MAZETE No, I don't. MR MALAN Was a member of Parliament present when you signed this form? MR MAZETE It might be those lawyers who helped us to fill those forms, maybe that person from parliament was present. MR MALAN Thank you. CHAIRPERSON It appears to be signed by somebody who alleges he's a member of parliament but the copies that I have seen are not dated. MR STEENKAMP Can I continue Mr Chairperson? MR STEENKAMP Sir, can we just have a look at paragraph 10 on page 20, which is the second page of your application. Can you just turn to that page please, marked page 20? Do you have that in front of you? MR MAZETE Yes, I have it. MR STEENKAMP I'm just going to read from your own application and I just want your comment. Do you have it in front of you now? MR MAZETE Yes. MR STEENKAMP Under the heading: "State Political Objective Sought to be Achieved", you said "To carry forwards the armed struggle waged by the PAC/APLA at the time at or as, as the Wesselsbron Supermarket was owned by the local chairman of the AWB and frequented by AWB members? Do you still stick to this version? MR MAZETE No, what I know about this is that we were carrying forward the armed struggle for liberation. As to whether the owner of the shop was the AWB, I do not know. MR STEENKAMP Why did you put it in your amnesty application Sir? MR MAZETE When I filling this application I didn't include this aspect to say, I only talked about my objective, I did not include that the owner of the shop was a member of the AWB. MR STEENKAMP Can you please tell us what your political objective was? MR MAZETE It was to achieve total liberation for the people. CHAIRPERSON Are you saying that when you filled this form in this paragraph wasn't filled in? MR MAZETE I did fill it in? CHAIRPERSON Well what did you say? MR MAZETE I told them about my objective, that is was to achieve total liberation for the people. CHAIRPERSON But that is not what is in the form here. You say that is what was filled in in the form that you signed, that you prepared, as I understand you. Please correct me if I'm wrong. MR MAZETE I don't know who put that addition, under which circumstances or reasons. CHAIRPERSON Well, what else has been put into this form that you don't know about? MR MAZETE The way it was filled I'm satisfied. There is nowhere where I have doubts. CHAIRPERSON But the problem is you have told us it was filled in a certain way, the form we have is filled in and they are completely different in context. MR MAZETE To explain shortly before this Commission, at the time when we were filling these application forms those people who represented us at that time, we were telling them orally and those people were writing or filling those forms. I did not fill this form by myself. CHAIRPERSON Did you tell those people who were filling in the form "We entered the Wesselsbron Supermarket and started shooting indiscriminately at the white people who were inside the shop"? MR MAZETE No. CHAIRPERSON Because that has been written in the form and then scratched out. MR MAZETE Yes, I see that. MR MALAN Do you have your bundle open on page 20? MR MBANDAZAYO Mr Chairman, I don't think it has the same number, the one application he is using as yours Mr Chairman. MR MALAN Sorry, the copy of the statement that you have before you, I assume it's on the second page at the top, there is a IV and it says: "Nature and Particulars", do you have that before you? MR MAZETE That is correct, I see it. MR MALAN And you can read what is written there? MR MAZETE Do you mean the way it was scratched? MR MALAN You can see that it's scratched out with a diagonal line there. MR MAZETE Yes, I see that. MR MALAN And then there's some initial on the left of that scratched our paragraph. Is that your mark? MR MAZETE It's not myself. MR MALAN It's not your mark. MR MAZETE No, it's not my mark. MR MALAN If you turn over the page you see your name at the bottom: Deponent: George Mazete. MR MAZETE Yes, I see that. MR MALAN Is that your mark? MR MAZETE No, it's not myself. MR MALAN That's not how you write your name? MR MAZETE That is the way I write it. MR MALAN Did you write this? MR MAZETE No, it's not myself. MR MALAN Who wrote this? MR MAZETE It's the TRC lawyers. CHAIRPERSON You say TRC lawyers? MR MAZETE Those who represented the Truth Commission, who consulted people who wanted to apply for amnesty in this province. ADV SIGODI When you were interviewed or when you were being assisted in filling in this form, were you alone? MR MAZETE No, I was not alone. ADV SIGODI Was it you and the lawyer or was it you, was it a whole group of people and the person who came to take your statements? MR MALAN It was myself and the lawyer and many other people who were filling their forms for amnesty. ADV SIGODI Was Mr Morrison present when this form was filled, Malusi Morrison? MR MAZETE Yes. ADV SIGODI And of the other applicants, who else was there? MR MAZETE My co-accused were present, who are my co-applicants now. ADV SIGODI Were you all held in the same prison? MR MAZETE Yes, we were in the same prison. ADV SIGODI So were you relating the story as a group to the person who was taking down your statements or were you just giving your statements individually to the person who was taking your statements? MR MAZETE Individually. MR MALAN Individually to the same person in succession or to different persons? MR MAZETE It was the same person. MR MALAN You see Mr Mazete, the difficulty I have is that if I look at your application, the handwriting in which this was filled out I cannot find in any of the other forms. The handwriting in the other forms, all of them, are totally different. So it looks as if your document was filled out either by someone with knowledge, on your behalf or directly under your direction by an individual who certainly had by then not taken any of the other statements, not so? Sorry, let me just put this on record. It's been shown to me that Tshoane's application is in the same handwriting. That may explain the information that was scratched out, thank you. MR STEENKAMP Can the Committee attach any value to the information that has been submitted to the Committee in your application? MR MAZETE Yes, they are obliged to do so. MR STEENKAMP Did you discuss this application, your specific application with your lawyer before coming to the hearing? MR MAZETE Yes, we did. MR STEENKAMP And did you go through the application, did he go through the application with you? MR MAZETE Yes, that is correct. MR STEENKAMP And you were then satisfied that this is actually - you were actually satisfied that this information is correct as far as you were then concerned, am I right? MR MAZETE That is correct. MR STEENKAMP Do you know if any AWB members were killed in this incident? MR MAZETE No, I don't know. MR STEENKAMP May I just have that answer again please, I didn't hear it. MR MAZETE No. MR STEENKAMP You see Sir, according to paragraph 10(d) you're saying there, I read to you "Politically and military as one AWB members was killed" How should we understand this now? MR MAZETE It shows the way he filled that. He knew and then we agreed that that is how it happened and those people who were affected were like that, so that is the way I did not dispute that. MR STEENKAMP Sir, isn't it correct that you were never a member of APLA at all? Because this is what the investigating officer will tell the Committee if he is called. You were never a member of APLA, you were only there to assist the gang in providing safe housing or a place to store the weapons away, is that correct? MR MAZETE That is correct. MR STEENKAMP So you were never a member of APLA, because this is what you've just said. MR MAZETE That is correct. MR STEENKAMP So maybe I'm wrong but according to the previous applicants the amount of R4 000 was stolen or taken, robbed, at the supermarket. You said you received R9 000, do you know where this money came from and who gave it to you? MR MAZETE No. As I've already explained before that I didn't know as to whether there was money which was taken there. And again I was forced by the police to talk about that money so that they would leave me alone. MR STEENKAMP Just one question I forgot to ask you, you just said you were never a member of APLA but in your amnesty application in paragraph 7 you stated that you were a member of APLA, why is that? MR MAZETE I don't know, that is the way it was written. MR STEENKAMP Returning to the money, do you know what happened to the money, the bulk of the money? MR MAZETE No, I don't know. MR STEENKAMP Do you know for what purposes money was taken? MR MAZETE No, I do not know. MR STEENKAMP Sir, were you ever a member of PAC? Am I right to say you were never a member of PAC? MR MAZETE That is not true. ADV SIGODI I don't understand, what is not true? Are you saying you were never a member of PAC or you were a member of PAC? I don't understand. MR MAZETE I was a member of PAC. ADV SIGODI Were you a member of APLA? MR MAZETE No, not at all. ADV SIGODI What was your role in PAC? MR MAZETE I was the General Secretary of the Student Wing, that is PASO. CHAIRPERSON Were you a member of the task force? MR MAZETE Yes, that is correct. MR STEENKAMP Can you tell me exactly what your role was in this whole incident? What exactly was required from you to do, in this incident? Exactly what was your responsibility? MR MAZETE In the first place I drew the map of the supermarket and from there I hid their weapons which were used in that operation. MR STEENKAMP And that's all, am I right? MR MAZETE That is correct. MR STEENKAMP Did any of the other people who were involved in the shooting inside the supermarket, some of your co-applicants, did they report back to you what happened in the supermarket? MR MAZETE Not at all. MR STEENKAMP When did you realise that the shooting incident occurred in the supermarket, when for the first time did you realise something happened in the supermarket? MR MAZETE The following day, that is on Sunday. MR STEENKAMP How did you get to know this? MR MAZETE By rumours, that such an incident happened in town and by seeing many policemen within the township, then I believed that that kind of an incident happened. MR STEENKAMP Did you have any idea why the supermarket was attacked? MR MAZETE No, I don't have knowledge. MR STEENKAMP Would you say, as a PAC member, that this was a legitimate target? MR MAZETE I don't know. MR STEENKAMP Do you know what the PAC police was on identification of targets? MR MAZETE No. MR STEENKAMP You joined - according to your statement you joined the PAC or PASO in 1990/1991, did anybody inform you what the function or the policy of the PAC was at all? MR MAZETE Since I joined the PAC in 1990, some of the people I joined with or I joined by or through them, told me all about PAC. MR STEENKAMP But you're not able today to tell us what the policy of the PAC was, am I right? MR MALAN Your question was whether he had any knowledge of the PAC's policy in terms of targets. MR STEENKAMP Thank you Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Have you concluded your questioning? MR STEENKAMP Mr Chairman, I've got one or two, just basically one question left. I was just trying to ... Sir, my last question to you. Can you just briefly tell the Committee what your political motivation was for your part in this incident? MR MAZETE My political motivation on this incident was because the PAC was engaged in war for liberation at that time, the work of the Military Wing which is APLA, was that to bring the PAC close to liberation for the people. MR STEENKAMP But what was your personal political motivation? MR MAZETE To fight for liberation for the people. MR STEENKAMP Thank you Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STEENKAMP MR MALAN Mr Mazete, may I just ask you, you say the arms that were used when brought back to you stayed with you for about a month, is that correct? MR MAZETE That is correct. MR MALAN Was it ever used for any other project, other attack during that month? MR MAZETE No. MR MALAN Did nobody come to ask the weapons of you? MR MAZETE No. MR MALAN So to the best of your knowledge after this incident those who attacked the supermarket as part of the liberation struggle did not carry out any other action for at least a month and for as long as the arms were with Mr Mohape? MR MAZETE I don't remember well, but I don't think they were used. MR MALAN Well you would certainly remember whether they were used while in your possession? MR MAZETE They were not used at all for another operation whilst they were with me. MR MALAN That's between the attack of the supermarket and your giving it to Mr Paulos Mohape? MR MAZETE That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Just one matter I'm a little confused about. Do you remember during the course of your evidence your counsel asked you about evidence that R9 000 was left with you and you replied: "I made that statement"? MR MAZETE That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Where did you make that statement? MR MAZETE To the Chief Magistrate of Welkom. CHAIRPERSON You made a statement to the Chief Magistrate of Welkom? MR MAZETE That is correct. CHAIRPERSON In which you said that you had been given R9 000? MR MAZETE I told him so. CHAIRPERSON Did you also tell him you had been given R50 after the money was counted? MR MAZETE That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Why did you do this? MR MAZETE Because I was forced to do so. CHAIRPERSON Who by? MR MAZETE Even before I made this statement the police threatened me that I should tell the Magistrate that I was tortured. So things like that I would not say if I was not. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, you said even before you made this statement: "I was threatened by the police that I should tell the Magistrate I was tortured", is that what you said? MR MAZETE Yes, that is correct. CHAIRPERSON Do you mean that you were threatened by the police if you told the Magistrate you were tortured? MR MAZETE That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Were you taken to the Magistrate to make a statement to him? MR MAZETE That is correct. CHAIRPERSON And did he ask you if you were making it freely and voluntarily? MR MAZETE It was myself who gave that statement. CHAIRPERSON When was this, do you know? MR MAZETE It was on the 27th of October if I'm not mistaken. CHAIRPERSON And did he record the statement? MR MAZETE I don't understand your question. CHAIRPERSON Did he write it down, record it? MR MAZETE I'm not sure. CHAIRPERSON Weren't you asked to sign it? MR MAZETE No, I don't remember. CHAIRPERSON You mean you were taken to the Chief Magistrate to make a statement, you can't say if he wrote it down and you weren't asked to sign it? MR MAZETE Yes, they took me to the Magistrate. It is true that I was taken to the Magistrate, that is the police. Where I remember that he said to me to sign is where he made mistakes what I was telling him about. CHAIRPERSON Did you say he made you(?) to sign it? MR MAZETE That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Was this statement referred to at your trial? MR MAZETE Yes, that is correct. CHAIRPERSON That is your trial in the Supreme Court? MR MAZETE That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Re-examination? ADV SIGODI Can I just clarify something? CHAIRPERSON Okay. ADV SIGODI The contents of the statement, what you told the Magistrate, was it something that had happened, was it something that you knew or what? MR MAZETE Yes, it was the truth. ADV SIGODI So the aspect about the R9 000 and the R50, was that the truth? MR MAZETE No, it was not truth. ADV SIGODI Then I don't understand because you have just told us that what you told the Magistrate was the truth, how do you explain the discrepancy? MR MAZETE To make an example, as I was able to help those people who took part in that operation, I was able to hide their guns, those are the kinds of elements I put in the statement. ADV SIGODI ...[inaudible] R50? MR MAZETE I said that because I've already told the police. I knew that it would give me a problem if I don't include that in my statement whilst I did tell the police about the R9 000 and the R50. That is why I included that in that statement. ADV SIGODI And so when you told the police about the R9 000 was it the truth? MR MAZETE No, it was not the truth. ADV SIGODI Why did you tell them that? MR MAZETE I wanted them to release me because maybe I would be killed because of that so I wanted to satisfy them. ADV SIGODI Did they tell you to tell the Magistrate about the R9 000 or did you tell them about the R9 000 because you wanted to get them off your back? MR MAZETE I told them about the R9 000 because I wanted them to leave me alone. So to the Magistrate I saw that it was risky that I should leave that element in the statement I did before the Magistrate because those are the people who would handle the docket and they would ask my why I didn't tell the Magistrate about the R9 000 whilst I did tell them about the R9 000. So I was protecting myself. MR MALAN May I just ask you, on what basis did you believe that if you would tell the police a lie that you received R9 000 plus R50, that they would suddenly leave you? MR MAZETE Because I heard from the news the following day that they talked about the money that was involved there and I thought that by so saying I will make them satisfied about the investigations they were doing in this regard. MR MALAN Did they ask you where the R9 000 was? MR MAZETE No, they did not. MR MALAN You earlier said when you were asked: "How did you learn of the attack"?, you said: "By rumour and by the police in the streets and the township", now you tell us you also heard it on the news. Where did you hear it on the news? MR MAZETE At home we have a radio, so we listened to the news on a daily basis and so I listened to the radio when they broadcast the news. So I learnt that from the radio, and then about the disappearance of the money. MR MALAN What did you hear on the news? What did they say about the money on the news? MR MAZETE They said a certain amount of money disappeared. MR MALAN Did they say how much? MR MAZETE I don't remember as to whether they said the amount but they said there is the disappearance of money. MR MALAN So why did you choose R9 000 as a figure? MR MAZETE It just came from my head so that they should be satisfied. MR MALAN And this was four months after the incident, after your arrest? MR MAZETE That is correct. MR MALAN By then, when you were arrested and before you made this statement to the police, did you have any contact with your then co-accused? MR MAZETE No. MR MALAN So when the police took you in you didn't know whether any of your co-accused had been apprehended? MR MAZETE I knew because we used to go to Low Court whilst the first accused was prosecuted. MR MALAN Did you speak to him then? MR MAZETE No, I did not know him. MR MALAN What do you mean you did not know him? MR MAZETE It was for the first time I saw him. MR MALAN Who is the first accused that you're talking about? MR MAZETE That is Stanley Tshoane. MR MALAN Thank you. Mr Mbandazayo, may I just ask you to, in re-examination, canvass the issue of the signature. We may be in the position here where we don't have a valid application. RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Mazete, just on the point which has been raised by the Committee, let me start by - you have been asked regarding the application which is in front of you, the application which was submitted to the Truth Commission, and you indicated to the Committee that it was not filled by yourself, is that correct? MR MAZETE That is true. MR MBANDAZAYO Now, what I want to know from you, you have been asked by the Committee about the signature, whether after the application was filled and you have been assisted by whoever assisted you during the filling of the application form, were you asked to append your signature at the end of the application form? MR MAZETE Can you please repeat your question, I don't understand your question. MR MBANDAZAYO After you have completed the application form with the person who was assisting you in filling it, you have already told the Committee that you were asked and this person was filling the application form on your behalf, now I'm asking were you made to sign at the end after he has completed filling the application form on your behalf? Were you asked to sign the application form? MR MAZETE Yes, in the application that I filled. MR MBANDAZAYO Did you sign the application that you filled? MR MAZETE Yes, that is true. MR MBANDAZAYO Now you were asked by the Committee - in fact let me ask you this way, is the application which is in front of you they application that you filled when you were assisted by those persons who came to the Grootvlei Prison? MR MAZETE Yes, that is true. MR MBANDAZAYO Can you indicate where did you sign the application form? MR MAZETE I signed on that space where it is written: "Deponent". MR MBANDAZAYO But you've told us that the signature there is not yours. MR MAZETE I would like to ask for pardon before this Committee. CHAIRPERSON What for? MR MAZETE Because this application, I see this application is printed. When I was filling this application it was not printed and I used a blue pen but now I see a black pen. That is why I was confused. MR MALAN In what language did you fill it out? This may be the problem MR MAZETE I was using Sotho. MR MALAN Now then this may be explaining it. We can check on our records whether we have the original and that simply a translated version has been put before us. But even that would be difficult to understand because the signature is affixed here or what pretends to be a signature in a different pen, a different writing. CHAIRPERSON But that is not your signature you've told us, where it says: "Deponent". You signed your own signature on the form you filled in in ordinary hand-writing, is that what you are telling us? MR MAZETE Yes, that is true. MR MBANDAZAYO Mr Mazete, let me go back to this question of your signature, are you sure that the application you filled was in your own language, Sesotho? Was it also written in your own language, Sesotho? MR MAZETE I was not given the form that was written in Sesotho, I was only speaking Sesotho and the person who was filling the form was busy writing as I was speaking. CHAIRPERSON Was the form written in English? MR MAZETE Yes, that is true. CHAIRPERSON In hand-writing, not in print? MR MAZETE It was printed. CHAIRPERSON Was it this form or another form? MR MAZETE It means it is the same form. CHAIRPERSON But how did you come not to sign it, how did you sign another form MR MAZETE Like I have already explained to this Committee, the form that I filled, they person asked me to sign that form after he has filled the form. So I don't know afterwards what happened to that form. MR MALAN Are you saying it's not this form before you, the one that you have there? MR MAZETE I do agree that it is the same form. CHAIRPERSON But you've told us repeatedly it's not the one you signed. MR MAZETE I don't know whether the person who filled this form wanted to change it or I don't know whether this is the same form that I filled or not but they look similar. CHAIRPERSON But the signature you have told us repeatedly is not your signature. MR MAZETE I can fill the form and put the signature and then take that form and make photocopies of it. My signature will definitely appear on that photocopied document. CHAIRPERSON Is the signature on this form a photocopy of your signature? MR MAZETE That is so. CHAIRPERSON Will you sign this piece of paper please? MR STEENKAMP Mr Chairman, we will undertake in the meantime to see if we can find any other applications in our office in Cape Town, that may be related to this applicant and which may probably be in Sesotho. ADV SIGODI Mr Chairperson, can I ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON I'm marking this Exhibit D. ...[inaudible] MR MBANDAZAYO Yes, Mr Chairman. Just on that aspect I'm going to your affidavit. Just look at your affidavit Mr Mazete - let me ask you this way before you look at your affidavit, is that what you have done when you have been requested by the Chairman to put down your signature, is that your signature? MR MAZETE Yes, that is my signature. MR MBANDAZAYO Now Mr Mazete, I want you to look at the affidavit which is before the Committee and which I started using before we started these proceedings regarding this matter and look at the paragraph 7, below paragraph 7 where it says: "Deponent". MR MAZETE Yes, I do see. MR MBANDAZAYO Is that your signature which is there at the bottom of that? MR MAZETE Yes, that's true. CHAIRPERSON It appears to be very similar to the signature he has just signed. The M is the same with a loop in the middle, the g is similar. ...[inaudible] very unlike the signature on the application. MR STEENKAMP Mr Chairperson, I've been placed in the possession of the warning statement of the applicant which was signed in 1993. It is his original hand-writing, original document where he signed three times, and it will help you in any way I would like to show it to you and hand it in to you. I would like to beg leave to just hand it in Mr Chairman. MR MBANDAZAYO If the Committee can bear with me, I just want to go to the applicant and check the papers in front. MR STEENKAMP Mr Chairman, if I can take another opportunity? Mr Chairman, I just want to place on record that I was also informed that the accused did actually complete a Section 217 statement which was handed in as an informal(?) confession in the Supreme Court on which he was convicted and found guilty. Unfortunately there is no copies of those documents in existence anymore and the original is part and parcel of the exhibit list which was handed in in the Supreme Court. So in actual fact the Section 217 statement was ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON What has happened to the exhibits? MR STEENKAMP Mr Chairperson, as I understand it was handed in in the Supreme Court. The investigating officer is here. We're trying to establish what happened to that exhibit list. CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] Exhibit V. Have you got any further questions? MR MBANDAZAYO None Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MBANDAZAYO CHAIRPERSON There are certain matters I would like to clarify with you please. Mr Mazete, you said that you kept the weapons and then you gave them to Mr Mohape for safekeeping. MR MAZETE Yes, that is correct. CHAIRPERSON Did you have anything to do with the weapons after that? MR MAZETE Not at all. CHAIRPERSON Did you see them again? MR MAZETE No, I did not. CHAIRPERSON Did you have anything to do with any other weapons? MR MAZETE Not at all. CHAIRPERSON You were accused number 3 weren't you, at the trial? MR MAZETE That is true. CHAIRPERSON Now evidence was led at the trial that on the 22nd of October you took Major Hugo to a sink structure and dug up three R4 rifles, eight magazines and 197 bullets, do you remember that? MR MAZETE Yes, that is correct. CHAIRPERSON What weapons were these? MR MAZETE If they were the same weapons that we hid there then they were R4's. CHAIRPERSON What weapons did you hide there? I asked you if you saw any other weapons, you said: "No", now you say you hid weapons there, what weapons did you hide there? MR MAZETE That is the same weapons that Bhani asked me to go and hide them for him. CHAIRPERSON Who asked you to go and hide them for him? MR MAZETE That is Mangalisekile Bhani. CHAIRPERSON But you told us you gave them to Mohape and never saw them again. You told me that, you confirmed it again a few minutes ago, do you remember that? MR MAZETE Yes, that happened after that. CHAIRPERSON After what? You told us you were given the weapons to keep and you kept them till people came to stay and you then gave them to Mohape. MR MAZETE Yes, that is true. CHAIRPERSON And that was the last you saw of them? MR MAZETE I saw them again when we went there with the police to dig them up. CHAIRPERSON But when were they buried there? MR MAZETE We hid them in August. CHAIRPERSON Before you gave them to Mohape? MR MAZETE No. CHAIRPERSON After you gave them to Mohape? MR MAZETE Yes, that is true. CHAIRPERSON Why did you tell me that you never saw them again after you gave them to Mohape? Had you forgotten that there was this evidence? MR MAZETE That time when we were digging them up they were just a parcel, a wrapped parcel so I was not quite sure whether they were the same weapons that were used or we hid there. CHAIRPERSON You told us nothing whatsoever about hiding weapons, you told us on more than one occasion that you gave them to Mohape and when I've just asked you you said that you never saw them again. Now, because I've questioned you about the evidence at your trial, you say, oh yes, after you gave them to Mohape you went along and buried them. Why are you lying to us? MR MAZETE I'm am not telling a lie. CHAIRPERSON You said you never saw them again after you gave them to Mohape, now you say that is not true, you went and buried them. MR MAZETE Like I've already explained in court, the time when we went with the police it was just a wrapped parcel but I did not see them with my eyes. CHAIRPERSON Is that your explanation? MR MAZETE That is correct. CHAIRPERSON And there's one other matter which I don't know if counsel can help me with, as to what Exhibit D was at the trial. I've glanced through the Judgment but I haven't been able to find it. It may be that we will have to re-call this applicant tomorrow to clarify that point. MR STEENKAMP Mr Chairman, I've endeavoured now to get hold of the register of the Supreme Court so that we can at least get a list of the exhibits and probably all the exhibits itself if needed. CHAIRPERSON If we can have that by tomorrow morning. MR STEENKAMP As you please Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON And if you can get this statement that was handed in. MR STEENKAMP Mr Chairman, apparently that was also an exhibit. CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] referred to in the Judgment. Right, any questions? Thank you. WITNESS EXCUSED