amntrans AMNESTY APPLICATION 1998-09-08 CAPE TOWN 2 WALTER TANDA, THE CROSSROADS POLICE ATTACK THE KHAYELITSHA POLICE VEHICLE ATTACK AND https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=52838&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1998/98090710_ct_pac2.htm MR MAPOMA Mr Chairman, the next matter will that of Andile Shiceka, Walter Tanda and Gcinikhaya Makoma. They are all represented by Mr Norman Arendse. He is available for us to proceed, and the applicants are also here. CHAIRPERSON I didn't hear what you said? MR MAPOMA He is available Chairperson, he is here. CHAIRPERSON He is here. MR MAPOMA And the applicants are also here. CHAIRPERSON Can we make a beginning? MR MAPOMA Yes, Sir. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR ARENDSE Chairperson, Honourable Members of the Committee, I appear together with my colleague, Advocate Vuyani Ngalwana: N-G-A-L-W-A-N-A. Both of us are from the Cape Bar. We appear on behalf of the three applicants in this matter, Andile Shiceka, Walter Tanda and Gcinikhaya Makoma. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR ARENDSE Chairperson, if I may with your leave, just arrange the order in which the matter appears in front of you in the bundle, purely for the sake of convenience. If I may call Walter Tanda first and then Makoma second, and then lastly, Shiceka. You will notice from the bundle that the matter in respect of which the applicants appear together, either one or both of them, are only in respect of the second, the Khayelitsha Train Station attack, and then the last one, the Khayelitsha Police Vehicle attack. Apart from that, Tanda and Shiceka appear very much on their own. I propose dealing with the last one first, the Khayelitsha Police Vehicle Attack, where Tanda and Makoma appear together. CHAIRPERSON Yes, you may proceed. MR ARENDSE Thank you Chairperson. MR MAPOMA Excuse me Mr Chairman, there is next to me, Mr Warner who appears for one of the victims. I would ask him to place himself on record. CHAIRPERSON Yes, Mr Warner? I'm sorry I overlooked you Mr Warner. MR WARNER I appear on behalf of Miss Amanda Warner, one of the victims in the Claremont Stake Restaurant Shooting. CHAIRPERSON Yes. So the present application, the Khayelitsha Police Vehicle Attack is not concerned? MR WARNER Not at all Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Very well, thank you very much. MR WARNER Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Yes, do proceed Mr Arendse. MR ARENDSE Mr Chairperson, if I may call one, Walter Falibango Tanda. WALTER FALIBANGO TANDA (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Will he be given evidence for an interpreter? EXAMINATION BY MR ARENDSE Yes, Chairperson. Thank you Chairperson. Mr Tanda, what is your age? MR TANDA I am 38 years old. MR ARENDSE What are you doing at the moment, are you working, and if so, where are you working? MR TANDA I'm serving in the National Defence Force in Walmasdal(?), Pretoria. CHAIRPERSON I can't hear his answer. I'm sorry about that. Is he speaking in the mike? MR TANDA I'm serving in the National Defence Force in Pretoria at Walmasdal. CHAIRPERSON Yes, what was the answer? MR ARENDSE Please repeat the answer. MR TANDA I'm serving in the National Defence Force in Pretoria at Walmasdal. CHAIRPERSON Yes. INTERPRETER Can you hear me now? He is serving in the National Defence Force in Pretoria at Walmasdal. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR ARENDSE Thank you. And you said just before that, that your age was 38? MR TANDA Yes, I'm 38 years old. MR ARENDSE When you're not in the army, where do you stay? MR TANDA I stay at Molteno in the Eastern Cape in number 1184 in New Location. MR ARENDSE How long have you now been in the army, in the Defence Force? MR TANDA I started on the 1st of July this year, 1998. MR ARENDSE Before July 1998, what was your status, what was your position? MR TANDA I was in prison. I was released on the 3rd of June. I received amnesty. MR ARENDSE In respect of which offence? MR TANDA It's about the Newcastle Crazy Disco Attack. MR ARENDSE When did that attack happen? MR TANDA That was in 1994 on the 14th of February. MR ARENDSE That attack is also mentioned by you in your amnesty application, is that correct? MR TANDA That is correct. MR ARENDSE Just for the record, Chairperson, I refer to page 32 of the record. Did you go to school Walter? MR TANDA A little bit. MR ARENDSE What do you mean by a little bit, until what standard did you go to school? MR TANDA I went up until standard two. Due to some problems in the family I couldn't go on. MR ARENDSE When did you leave school? MR TANDA It was in 1972. MR ARENDSE In 1972. And since 1972, what did you do? MR TANDA I was doing nothing, I was just sitting at home. MR ARENDSE Did you become involved in politics at all? MR TANDA Yes. MR ARENDSE And when was that? When did you become involved in politics for the first time? MR TANDA That was in 1982. In 1990 I became - In 1982 I was involved with the PAC and then in 1990 I became the member of the Azanian People's Liberation Army. MR ARENDSE How did you become involved with what is referred to as APLA? How did you become involved? Did you join out of your own, were you asked to join? MR TANDA I was recruited and I was also satisfied because I could see that that was a way for me to fight for liberation. MR ARENDSE Is the reason why you joined APLA, or tell us why you joined APLA. MR TANDA The reason for me to join APLA, I realised that the African land was taken from them and they were victims and they were being oppressed. They were victimised by the South African Police and even the South African Defence Force was victimising them. So I saw the need for me to get involved with the APLA and be part of the people who are going to liberate Africa, to protect, to liberate Africans from the apartheid regime. MR ARENDSE And how were you going to do that, how were you going to liberate the African people from the regime? MR TANDA I had to obey the orders from the commander of APLA and be involved in the operations. MR ARENDSE Okay. Now tell us about the - the operations that you were involved in, we know now you were involved in the New Caste Crazy Beat Disco matter, where you applied for amnesty and you have been granted amnesty. We know about that one. Now the others in respect of which you are applying for amnesty are some of the ones we are going to deal with today. Now before we do that, can you just perhaps tell the Committee, you were born in the Eastern Cape, did you at any stage come to Cape Town? MR TANDA I once came to Cape Town when I was deployed here in 1990 although I was born in the Eastern Cape in Molteno. MR ARENDSE Who deployed you? MR TANDA The only names that I know is Mzala, Mandla and Jones. Those were the names that I was using, we were using for the comrade who deployed me here in Cape Town. MR ARENDSE Are those three different comrades or they one and the same person, this Mandla, Power, Jones or are they different persons? MR TANDA It's one person but we were using different code names. For security reasons we were using different code names for one person. MR ARENDSE When is the last time that you saw this person who has these various names? CHAIRPERSON And by what name are we going to be referring to him here? MR ARENDSE When last did you Mandla, Power, Mzala or Jones? You've said they are one and the same person. MR TANDA I last saw him in 1994, in 1994 when he was giving me instructions to go to Natal in Newcastle. After that I was arrested, I couldn't see him again. MR ARENDSE Now when you were deployed to Cape Town or to come to Cape Town, what were your instructions? Can you tell us what your instructions were? MR TANDA The instruction was to recruit Africans and establish APLA units and train comrades for the task force, the task force that would defend the members of the PAC and to ensure no enemies infiltrate the PAC, and to ensure that the APLA soldiers who are coming, I should welcome those and make sure that the operations here in Cape Town are going on. MR ARENDSE Were you also instructed to carry out any operations? MR TANDA That is so. MR ARENDSE When you instructed to carry out operations, who were to be the targets? The operations were to be carried out against whom? MR TANDA Our targets were people like the SAP, SADF and whites because those were the people who were oppressing the Africans. As everyone knows about this history of South Africa, that the land of the Africans were taken from the Africans. We never had rights as Africans in South Africa. MR ARENDSE The targets, whose task was it to identify the targets? MR TANDA The commander of the unit was the one who would take a decision about the target to be attacked and monitor that target. MR ARENDSE So these targets which we're going to deal with now, would it be correct that you were responsible for identifying them as targets, in your capacity as unit commander? MR TANDA That is so. MR ARENDSE Now let's deal with the first one: The Khayelitsha Police Vehicle Attack in Zolo Budd Road or Drive, I think it's also referred to. This happened towards the end of 1992, is that correct? MR TANDA Correct. MR ARENDSE You were involved in the attack with someone by the name of Mtura: M-T-U-R-A, and together with Gcinikhaya Makoma, is that correct? MR TANDA Correct. MR ARENDSE Tell us about the attack, how did it come about? MR TANDA The two people here, Mtura and one comrade and the third comrade was Gcinikhaya Makoma. Mtura came in the company of one comrade. When they came I had to contact Mzala as my commander. I wanted to know what was happening. I wanted to know whether these comrades were here to work in Cape Town. I later realised that they were supposed to work in the area of Transvaal. Mtura said these comrades should go. They were to be involved in an operation and leave Cape Town thereafter. CHAIRPERSON Which comrade was supposed to go? MR TANDA It was Mtura and one other comrade, I don't know his name. CHAIRPERSON Yes, but you said: "Mtura said that these comrades should go". MR TANDA It is Mandla who said I must involve them in an operation. It's Mandla who was my commander. MR ARENDSE So do I understand you correctly that Mtura and one other person came to your house and Mandla then instructed you to involve the two of them in this particular operation? MR TANDA That is correct, that is so. MR ARENDSE So it would have been you, Mtura, the other person who is not known to you, and Makoma. The four of you were involved in this operation? MR TANDA That is correct. MR ARENDSE Were all of them members of APLA? MR TANDA Mtura and the other comrade were a members of APLA and Gcinikhaya Makoma was still receiving training from the task force. He was a very disciplined person and also obedient. MR ARENDSE How did Makoma become involved in this operation? Was he also instructed by Mzala or did you instruct him, how did he get involved? MR TANDA I'm the person who instructed him to be involved, to get involved because we needed a person who was going to give a signal when the other people would be busy doing something else. Makoma and the other comrade were there to give a signal whenever the police van was coming from the bushes. If it's coming from Makoma's side, therefore he would give a signal and if it was coming from the direction of the other comrade the other comrade would also give a signal because we wouldn't see it coming. MR ARENDSE So the operation was to attack a police van, is that correct? MR TANDA That is correct. MR ARENDSE You attacked the van with weapons? MR TANDA Yes, that is correct. MR ARENDSE Tell us about the weapons used during this attack. MR TANDA I used an R4 rifle, Mtura had an R4 rifle and I gave Gcinikhaya Makoma an AK47 and I gave the other comrade an AK47. MR ARENDSE And just tell us about the operation itself, did it take place, what time of the day did it take place? MR TANDA It was late in the night. I'm not sure about the time, but it was late in the night. MR ARENDSE And did you fire on the van? MR TANDA Yes, I shot at the vehicle and Mtura did so, though my firearm locked. MR ARENDSE So was it only you and Mtura who shot at the van? MR TANDA Yes. MR ARENDSE What was the purpose of the attack, why did you attack the van? MR TANDA The purpose, we wanted to hit the police van and when it stops and I would issue an order to those people who were therefore signal, I would order them to disarm these police so as to get more weapons for the other soldiers. MR ARENDSE When you shot at the van did the van stop? MR TANDA No, it did not stop because my firearm locked when it was supposed to release the third bullet. So the operation was not successful because the van couldn't stop. MR ARENDSE So you regarded this as an unsuccessful operation? MR TANDA Yes, that's correct. MR ARENDSE Did you report the operation to the APLA High Command? MR TANDA Yes, after that I phoned Mzala and I told him about this operation and I told him that the operation was not successful. I told him that Mtura and the other comrade left Cape Town. They left Cape Town the following day. MR ARENDSE And what happened to Makoma? MR TANDA After the operation I released Gcinikhaya Makoma to go back to his family. MR ARENDSE Was Makoma from Cape Town? MR TANDA Yes, he was residing at Site C. MR ARENDSE Do you know what happened - you shot at the van, do you know whether - I take it you hit the van? MR TANDA Yes, though I'm not sure whether anyone was injured but I'm sure that no-one died there during that attack. MR ARENDSE Okay. ADV SANDI Sorry Mr Arendse. Mr Tanda, did the shots hit the body of the police vehicle? MR TANDA Yes. ADV SANDI You fired two shots, then you AK47 locked, is that what you said? MR TANDA It locked when it was supposed to release the third bullet, my firearm locked. ADV SANDI Mtura had also fired a shot at the vehicle? MR TANDA Yes. ADV SANDI Thank you. MR ARENDSE Walter, were you charged criminally with this particular offence? MR TANDA No. MR ARENDSE Did you go to court for it? MR TANDA No, I never appeared but I am the one who released that information when I was filling in the application form. I was never charged for the offence. MR ARENDSE Maybe we can just move on then to the next offence in respect of which you seek amnesty. This is the Cross Roads Police Attack. Now your orders you received from Mzala, is that correct? Directly? MR TANDA Yes, correct. CHAIRPERSON For this particular attack? MR TANDA I got order from Mzala because I used to connect with him telephonically and he said I must involve Africans in operations. MR ARENDSE Did it also include the Cross Roads Police Attack? MR TANDA Yes. MR ARENDSE Now is it correct that you carried out this particular attack? MR TANDA I do not want to say the attack was successfully carried out but I must say that there were people who were killed because the intention of the attack was to disarm those people. MR ARENDSE Now you were accompanied during this attack by other persons, who were they? MR TANDA I was with Simon and Graham. MR ARENDSE Do you know them by any other name? MR TANDA No. MR ARENDSE When is the last time you saw either or both of them? MR TANDA After that I used to meet them and I last saw them in 1993 when I left Cape Town. MR ARENDSE They're not here today, just for the record? They're not here today? MR TANDA Yes, they are not here. MR ARENDSE Where did you meet them? I'm coming back to before the attack now, where did you meet them? MR TANDA They were Africans that I used to work with, that is Graham and another member. We used to train under ...[inaudible] MR ARENDSE Were they members of your unit or were they from some other unit or were they deployed to Cape Town to assist you? MR TANDA No, they were under my command. MR ARENDSE In your unit? MR TANDA Yes. MR ARENDSE When - you said earlier that you were, as commander of the unit you were responsible for identifying the targets, was this particular attack also as a result of your identification of the target? MR TANDA It is I who identified the target. MR ARENDSE Now the target in this case were two policeman or what you thought were policemen, is that right? MR TANDA Yes. MR ARENDSE And this particular incident happened not far from the Cross Roads police Station, is that correct? MR TANDA Correct. MR ARENDSE Why did you think that the two person you attacked were policemen? MR TANDA You see policemen use a uniform and their uniform is different to other uniforms. The general public do not wear uniforms. MR ARENDSE Chairperson, just for the record, if the Committee peruses the police docket in this matter, it appears from the photographs in the docket that both the deceased were wearing blue coloured uniforms. Now these two policemen, they were not in a vehicle, they were walking, they were on foot, is that right? MR TANDA Yes, correct. MR ARENDSE Where were they walking? MR TANDA In front of other some shacks, moving from the direction of the police station of Cross Roads. When I saw them I said we must go between the shacks and Graham and Simon must be on the side of the police station with the intention to have someone giving me some firing cover, in order to prevent policemen who might appear later, from assassinating me. They came on as they were moving on foot and they were within reach of my fire. When they were within reach I then shot at them with an AK47. When they fell I said to Graham he must disarm them. We gave Graham firing cover and when that happened a kombi appeared and it lit directly in our direction, that is where I said: "Let us withdraw", because I was avoiding a situation of us being identified. MR ARENDSE Now ...[intervention] MR TANDA ...[no English translation] to avoid the people in the kombi identifying us because it had lit on us at the time. MR ARENDSE Why did you shoot at these policemen, were they armed? MR TANDA You see a policeman in uniform, it becomes a very unusual thing that he walks around without his weapon whilst he is in uniform. The uniform is also - you wear a uniform plus your firearm generally, that's what I know. CHAIRPERSON The question was, you told Graham to disarm them, did Graham disarm them? Did he recover or get any arms from them? MR TANDA No, he could not get any weapons from them because when that happened a kombi appeared and then I said we must retreat. MR ARENDSE So you don't know whether they were in fact armed or not? MR TANDA That is correct. As I've said, to a policeman his uniform is together with his firearm and I saw that there were people coming from the police station in uniform, I thought they must be armed as they are on duty. They were on duty at the time. MR ARENDSE Now after the attack you, Graham was unable to search them and find out whether in fact they had arms, what did you do then? MR TANDA We returned to the house we used. If I want to see somebody I would use that house as a shack(?) point. That is where we returned to. MR ARENDSE Where was this house? MR TANDA At Site C. MR ARENDSE At Site C in Khayelitsha? MR TANDA Yes. MR ARENDSE I'm not sure whether it's still the case, but at the time it was a squatter camp, is that right? MR TANDA It is still a shack place. MR ARENDSE Now do you know what happened to these policemen or these two persons? MR TANDA You see, the following day I woke up the following morning and went to where this attack occurred and I looked around and I noticed that indeed two policemen were lying there and the public had gathered there and investigation officers were on the scene. After that I reported the matter, the whole operation to Mzala. MR ARENDSE What did you say to Mzala? MR TANDA I told him that two policemen had passed away in that operation and that that operation can be claimed under APLA, though the weapons and the ammunition used could not be retrieved from the policemen because we were disturbed by that kombi that lit on us. ADV SANDI Sorry Mr Arendse. That kombi, the kombi you're talking about, did it come and stop there at the scene where these police were shot? MR TANDA It was on the road. The driver stopped the kombi and lit directly at the area where this whole operation was on. ADV SANDI Yes, but it came and passed? MR TANDA No, it did not pass, it stopped. ADV SANDI Thank you. CHAIRPERSON A bit strange isn't it? This happened late at night, the kombi arrives, they see policemen shot, they do nothing about it, because the next morning you go there and the policemen are still lying there. That is strange isn't it? MR TANDA Yes, it may surprise you, though I do not know why those people did not go and report this matter and why those policemen were still lying on the road even the following morning. I would not know. ADV SANDI This shack Mr Tanda, you say you went back to, was some sort of a hide-out for you? MR TANDA Yes, it was a place I used. Even before we go on operations, that is where we meet to discuss and then from there we move to whatever scene of operation. ADV SANDI How far was that shack from the place where the police had been shot? MR TANDA Site C is at Khayelitsha and the policemen were attacked at Cross Roads, next to the Cross Roads Police Station. ADV SANDI You mean to say that the - I want to be sure that I understand you clearly, you mean to say that the shack was far from the scene where the police had been shot? MR TANDA Yes, far. DR TSOTSI The place where the police fell, was that a public road? The road where you shot the policemen, was that a public road or a private road? MR TANDA Yes, it was a footpath but where you could use a car also because it was an open veld of sorts. ADV SANDI Did it have lights or was it dark in that area? MR TANDA There are lights at Cross Roads, that's why I could see them from a distance and said we must hide, using a shack as our cover. And where we were there was no bright lighting. It was darkish but you could see someone from a distance. ADV SANDI How did you see the colour and type of uniform these two people were wearing? MR TANDA I saw it when these people were in the street between the houses made of bricks, going towards the direction of the shacks. CHAIRPERSON You say: "street", is that the same thing that you talked about as a footpath? MR TANDA If you can see the police station at Cross Roads there is a street from the police station and then a street going this way towards the houses made of bricks. There is a street that crosses towards the shacks. CHAIRPERSON The point was this that I heard the word: "footpath" being given as the place where the shooting was done. Was it a footpath which was sometimes used by motorcars as you said, or is it a street that is well lit? MR TANDA I said when I answered this question, that people on foot can walk on it, even a person can use a car to drive because it's an open field of sort. CHAIRPERSON So it is not a street? MR TANDA No, it is not a street. MR ARENDSE Mr Tanda, were you watching these two persons for while, and if so for how long were you watching them? MR TANDA I saw them when they were approaching, going over this open veld like place. As I had my weapon on my body when they were coming I took cover with the shacks with the intent to position myself properly so that when they appear nearer to us I can then use my weapon. MR ARENDSE When you saw them for the first time, were they walking in a street where you could see them? MR TANDA Yes. MR ARENDSE And the street itself, was it, did it have lights? MR TANDA Yes, there are very long poles at Cross Roads that light up the location. Where they were coming from they have those lights, that's how I could see they were wearing police uniforms, and then I positioned myself between the shacks. MR ARENDSE So would it be correct to say that you observed them for a good few minutes before you decided to attack them at or near the footpath which the Chairperson is referring to and to which you referred to? MR TANDA Yes, I did look at them for some time but it is not a long time. I could then prepare myself to tell these Africans how they must position themselves in preparation of an attack. MR ARENDSE Were you the only one who shot at the two persons involved? MR TANDA Yes, myself alone. MR ARENDSE Are you sure that none of Simon or Graham shot at them? MR TANDA Yes, I'm certain. ADV SANDI Did they tell you that Mr Tanda, did they say to you they did not open fire at these two policemen? MR TANDA As I say, they gave me firing cover. This means they were keeping watch over my back. It is - the target was in front of me alone, it was I who was in close range with the target. CHAIRPERSON Were the identities of these two victims ever revealed to you? MR TANDA You mean, what do you mean Sir? CHAIRPERSON Their names, where they come from, details of that kind. MR TANDA No, I only got to know that they were policemen. MR ARENDSE Mr Tanda, is it correct that we also know now that of the two, only one was a policeman and the other one was an employee of Spoornet and that information you got from your legal representatives after they went through the police docket? MR TANDA Correct, I got that information from my attorney. MR ARENDSE Chairperson, just for the record, it also appears from the photographs that the deceased is still clothed in a Spoornet uniform which is also a blue uniform but which has a distinctive yellow Spoornet marking on the left shoulder. Mr Tanda, were you arrested at all in connection with this particular incident? MR TANDA Correct. MR ARENDSE Did you appear in court in connection with the incident? MR TANDA Correct. CHAIRPERSON How soon after this incident were you arrested? MR TANDA I was arrested in 1994, in February 1994 during the attack of Crazy Disco at Newcastle. MR ARENDSE Now you appeared in court in connection with this case several times in Mitchells Plain Court, is that correct? MR TANDA Correct. MR ARENDSE And the case was withdrawn against you? MR TANDA Correct. CHAIRPERSON What about your two colleagues, were they also arrested? MR TANDA No, they were not arrested. CHAIRPERSON And when was the case withdrawn? MR TANDA I cannot remember the date but it was during 1995. CHAIRPERSON Were you in custody throughout that period or where you on bail? MR TANDA I had been sentenced for 25 years for the case I had done at Newcastle and the case at Cape Town was a further charge. CHAIRPERSON I see. So what you're really saying is whilst that other case involved you, you were making appearances in this matter here and the case was withdrawn. I see. Alright, carry on. DR TSOTSI Why was it withdrawn? MR TANDA Yes. DR TSOTSI Why? MR TANDA I cannot answer the question on behalf of the one who acquitted me, who withdrew the case. I'm sorry. DR TSOTSI You were not given a reason why the case was withdrawn? MR TANDA What I noticed during the whole time of my appearance in court was that those who led the case, the investigators and so on, they did not go to court. I think therefore that that could be the reason why the case was withdrawn. DR TSOTSI Maybe Mr Arendse can help us there. MR ARENDSE I'm afraid I can't. Presumably because by that time Mr Tanda had already been found guilty and sentenced to 25 years in connection with the Newcastle matter and I take it the investigators didn't think that it's worthwhile pursuing the matter any further. CHAIRPERSON Yes, proceed please. MR ARENDSE Chairperson, just for the record, it also appears from the docket that an inquest was held into the deaths of the two persons involved and the finding was that the inquest court couldn't find on the evidence who the person or person responsible was or were for the deaths of these two persons. Mr Tanda, how do you - you're now sitting here in 1998, this incident happened towards the end of 1992, you killed human beings, two persons, one a policeman and one an employee of Spoornet. We don't know but presumably they had family, wives, children, dependants, how do you feel about the fact that you killed these two persons? MR TANDA Firstly, I want to say, regarding the victim who was walking with the policeman, if his family members or his dependants or wife or whosoever that I'm feeling very remorseful because the clothes he was wearing at the time looked very much like that of a policeman. And to the family and his relatives I want to apologise. The incident happened more because he was walking with a policeman. I want to apologise to his family. Also to the policeman, although we know that the police during the time of apartheid, their families even though they were working, doing things against their nation, they understand that but I want to apologise to them and want to say that that time was a time of conflict, we were fighting against the government. I think this time is a time of reconciliation and would ask their families to hold hands with us, and this is no more a time of conflict, thank you. MR ARENDSE Mr Chairman, with your leave if I could move onto the next incident. The next incident is the Khayelitsha Train Station Attack, with appears from pages 9 through to 23 of the bundle, Mr Chairman. Were you involved in this attack at all Mr Tanda? MR TANDA No. MR ARENDSE You are mentioned as part of this attack, did you know about it? MR TANDA No, I was not involved. MR ARENDSE Did you know who was involved or who were involved? MR TANDA You see, I was not part of the planning. Even in the execution of the attack I was not there. MR ARENDSE Did you know the persons involved in the attack? MR TANDA Yes, I knew Andile as Thabo, and I knew Chicken Licken as Chicken Licken, and I knew Maka Songe as DK. I want to confirm that I know them as APLA members. MR ARENDSE The last matter that I want to refer to is the one involving the Guguletu Police Attack at NY108. Chairperson, it is not referred to specifically as one of the incidents before you. If you look at the index on the front page, it is not one of the four incidents but it is mentioned by Mr Tanda in his application on page 32, paragraph 9(a) III. There's reference there to Newcastle, which is the Newcastle Crazy Beat Disco matter, then the Khayelitsha, Zola Budd Road or Drive matter which we've dealt with, and then one sees 108 Road (Guguletu), and then plus Old Cross Road, which is the one which we've also dealt with already. CHAIRPERSON Yes? MR ARENDSE Just for the record Mr Tanda, I'm just showing you a copy of your application, is that in your handwriting? MR TANDA No, I was assisted by Mpahlele. MR ARENDSE Is the 108 Road that you see there, and in brackets (Guguletu), is the incident involving the attack on the police at NY108? MR TANDA The 108 issue - oh, the 108 is the road from Guguletu and connected the one to the airport through Nyanga Cross Roads and so on. MR ARENDSE Now is it correct that this particular attack or operation was carried out in January 1993? MR TANDA That's correct. MR ARENDSE You were in charge of a unit which comprised Shiceka, the person referred to by you as Chicken Licken and one, DK, and also a person by the name of Scorpion, is that correct? MR TANDA The commander of the unit was Chicken Licken. Oh, the one commanding Chicken Licken, DK and Scorpion was Andile Shiceka, the one I knew as Thabo at the time and Scorpion are involved in the operation because at the time I did not want to use people who were based in Cape Town in my unit. So that when any person is wanted by the police that person would not be able to leave Cape Town easily. So it is Andile Shiceka who ran the unit. MR ARENDSE But in the operation itself in January 1993, it was only you and Scorpion that were involved in the operation? MR TANDA Correct. CHAIRPERSON What about the other names that he mentioned, why are they mentioned then? MR ARENDSE Perhaps Mr Tanda, you can just repeat why the other names are mentioned to you, Shiceka, Chicken Licken and DK, why were they not involved in the actual operation? MR TANDA The reason, I only wanted someone to assist me as part of my manpower, I did not want a unit. You see, the reason why all of these words are mentioned is because, so as to explain where Scorpion was coming from, which unit he was coming from. All of them were my visitors. CHAIRPERSON So to say that in January 1993, yourself, Shiceka, Chicken Licken, DK and Scorpion were involved, that's not correct? MR TANDA DK, Chicken Licken and Andile were not there, it was myself and Scorpion. MR ARENDSE Is it - just to correct that because I probably put it wrongly to you, you were together as a group, you yourself, Shiceka, Chicken Licken and DK and Scorpion, you were together as a group but in terms of carrying out the operation it was only you and Scorpion who were involved in this particular operation? MR TANDA Correct. MR ARENDSE Now, during this operation you attacked a yellow police van, is that correct, in NY108? MR TANDA That is correct. MR ARENDSE What time of the day was it? MR TANDA It was late in the night. I'm not sure about the time and the date. MR ARENDSE Why did you attack the van? MR TANDA The intention was to get arms as we knew that police were patrolling with arms. MR ARENDSE Did you decide to attack the van? MR TANDA Yes. I am the one who took that decision, though I got the mandate from Mzala. As I've already explained I was responsible for APLA soldiers who were coming. I was there to welcome them and train them so as to be ready for the operation and I had to ensure that they were armed. I would select the target to be disarmed. I later heard that one policeman died, the one who was driving. MR ARENDSE You were armed, were you armed with an AK47 or with an R4 rifle? MR TANDA I was armed with an R4 rifle and I gave another R4 rifle to Scorpion. MR ARENDSE Did both of you shoot at the van? MR TANDA No, I'm the only one who shot at the van. He was there to assist me if there was any resistance or shooting back. Because in such an operation it is important not to act at the same time if it's not necessary. MR ARENDSE So would it be correct to say that you take sole responsibility for the death of this one policeman during this attack? MR TANDA Yes, that is correct. Though the APLA have taken all the responsibility for any actions of APLA, but as the commander on that particular day, on this particular operation I'm taking the responsibility. I am even prepared to meet with the families of the victims. MR ARENDSE How do you feel about what happened during this attack, now that you know that one policeman, probably a black policeman, was killed during that attack? MR TANDA As I've already said initially, I heard that something happened during apartheid regime but now it's a new era. I am prepared to shake hands with the families of the victims because I know now that we are in the new era, we are no longer fighting. MR ARENDSE Were you arrested in connection with this incident? MR TANDA Yes. MR ARENDSE When were you arrested and where were you when you were arrested? MR TANDA I was arrested in 1994 during the attack at Newcastle. That was one of the cases that we used to appear in the Mitchell's Plain Court. MR ARENDSE So you also appeared in court in connection with this case on several occasions? MR TANDA Yes. MR ARENDSE And this case too was withdrawn against you? MR TANDA Yes, that is correct. MR ARENDSE Do you know why it was withdrawn against you? MR TANDA As I was not in a position to explain that before, I can only speculate. During the times of apartheid the lives of the black people didn't have any value. Maybe that was one of the reasons because the police who were involved in that case didn't attend the court. CHAIRPERSON Does that mean that even black policemen didn't attach any value to black life? MR TANDA The reason for me to say that, in this case of Newcastle ...[intervention] INTERPRETER Can the speaker please be requested to speak a little bit louder and in front of the mike. It is very difficult for the interpreters to hear. MR TANDA The reason for me to say that, in most cases that affected whites at the time were fully attended easily but those that were affecting the black people, they were not even there to attend. They were just using the black policemen to defend the apartheid regime. MR ARENDSE Mr Tanda, just tell us again. At the moment you serve in the SANDF, in the Defence Force? MR TANDA That's correct. MR ARENDSE How do you - this is a general question, how do you see your life at present, currently? How do you see your life at the moment and where do you see yourself going? MR TANDA I'll try and respond to your question although it is a very difficult question. I look like a child who is just born and I was in prison, involved in other things, and to me it's like a new life. I'm not yet prepared to say whether I'm going forward or backwards but I am prepared. I wish to go on and lead a normal life just like other people. MR ARENDSE I just want to comment on this. There is a general criticism from certain members of the public that where amnesty is granted to people like yourself, where you've killed other people, that you are being let loose on the public and that you are likely to commit the same offences again, do you want to comment on that? MR TANDA I can say the people of South Africa must know that we were involved in the struggle because I was mentally disturbed but I was there to liberate the nation that was oppressed. As I'm saying, the times of conflict is gone now and we are living with people. Wherever we live, we live just like other normal people. And secondly, they mustn't think that a revolution wasn't there, we were just pushing a revolution, because even the liberation that the people are talking about today, no matter who can say what, we've got to admit that those were the bullets of APLA, AZAPO and MK that managed to put us where we are today. We must not forget that because everyone knows that there are members of APLA who are in jails today and the members of Azania and ANC and MK. They are there because they wanted to liberate their nation and therefore they see us as people who are troublesome by trying to liberate our nation. MR ARENDSE Then just lastly, did you gain materially, did you gain anything, did you profit, did you make a profit from committing these offences? MR TANDA In APLA everyone was a volunteer. We were not benefitting anything after an operation. We were involved in the operations because we loved our nation so much. The only people who benefitted is the nation that was oppressed at the time. MR ARENDSE Just like lastly and finally, ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON How many times is that final? MR ARENDSE Just this once. What is your attitude towards white people in this country, who live in this country, your compatriots? MR TANDA In politics here in South Africa we never hated white people because of their colour as the other people were deceiving, people saying so. We regard white people as our brothers and sisters, but the problem is the system that they were using, the system that the government was using at the time. We don't have any attitude towards them, any bad attitude. Even now we are with them, we are working with them in the National Defence Force and there is no problem. Even in places where we live we do visit friends who are staying with whites but we don't hate them because of their colour but it's because of their actions during the apartheid regime. MR ARENDSE Thank you Chairperson, I've got no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR ARENDSE CHAIRPERSON Is this applicant not involved in the other matters? MR ARENDSE I speak under correction, no. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Have the identities of your victims, the people that you killed, has that ever been made known to you? MR TANDA No, I haven't seen them. I only saw them when I met with my legal representative. CHAIRPERSON I don't understand that. I've said the identities of the people that you killed. You say you saw them when you met your legal representative? Just clear that up. MR ARENDSE I think he's referring to the information which we got out of the police docket but the names and details of the deceased doesn't appear from there, we just discussed it with Mr Tanda. CHAIRPERSON Have you any questions to ask? ADV SANDI Mr Tanda, just to go back to the Cross Roads Police Attack where you killed those two people, one of whom was a policeman and the other one was an employee of Spoornet. Now you mentioned two names there, that is Graham and Simon. Did you know Graham and Simon before you called them to the house where you were staying at Site C? MR TANDA Yes, that is correct. ADV SANDI I notice that in your statement you say that you briefed them in full about the operation, what did you tell them? MR TANDA I told them that I want to get an order from comrade Power to start involving people in the operations. I chose Graham and Simon and I told them that we would be going to Cross Roads to check the target that we can disarm with the aim of getting more arms. CHAIRPERSON Just for the purposes of clearing up the record, you mentioned the word Power, that's the same person as Mzala? MR TANDA Yes. CHAIRPERSON I think we should one name throughout these proceedings otherwise the record, if it is read by somebody, might be confusing. ADV SANDI Thank you Chairman. So when you saw these two people you were not really expecting to see them walking in that area, were you? MR TANDA As I say the attack didn't take place far from the Cross Road Police Station. I knew that police are patrolling in the community. ADV SANDI If you had not come across these two people, what would you have done that evening? MR TANDA As I'm talking about the people who were patrolling, I knew that I would get some policemen patrolling in the area. I knew that for sure. ADV SANDI Why were the police patrolling the area? Were there any incidents happening in that area? MR TANDA If you'd notice that from 1986 up until today, the Cross Roads, time and again there are conflicts among the African people in that area and because of those conflicts the police are there to patrol the areas where the Africans are residing. As in the white areas the police would be there, even if they are there to check on thugs or for whatever reasons but they are there. They are always there patrolling all the time. ADV SANDI Thank you Tata. CHAIRPERSON Do you wish to put any questions to the applicant? MR MAPOMA No, Chairperson, I have no questions. NO QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA CHAIRPERSON Yes, you are excused. MR ARENDSE Thank you Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON You may step down. WITNESS EXCUSED