amntrans AMNESTY HEARING 1998-09-08 CAPE TOWN 2 GCINIKHAYA MAKOMA https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=52839&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1998/98090710_ct_pac2.htm CHAIRPERSON Are you calling Mr Makoma? MR ARENDSE That's correct Mr Chairperson. GCINIKHAYA MAKOMA (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Yes, please proceed. EXAMINATION BY MR ARENDSE Thank you Chairperson. Mr Makoma, where are you staying at the moment? MR MAKOMA I stay at Khayelitsha, Site C. MR ARENDSE Do you work? MR MAKOMA No, I'm unemployed. MR ARENDSE Are you doing anything useful? MR MAKOMA I'm studying, I'm corresponding standard ten with a certain college. MR ARENDSE What is that college's name? MR MAKOMA It's Lyceum College. MR ARENDSE How old are you now? MR MAKOMA I'm 22 years old. MR ARENDSE Now you were involved in an incident with Walter Tanda. MR MAKOMA Yes. MR ARENDSE In 1992, is that right? MR MAKOMA Yes. MR ARENDSE At that time you would have been 16, is that right? MR MAKOMA Yes, that's correct. MR ARENDSE At the time, were you a member of the PAC? MR MAKOMA Yes, that is correct. MR ARENDSE Were you a member of APLA? MR MAKOMA No, I was only a member of the task force. MR ARENDSE The PAC task force or APLA task force? MR MAKOMA The PAC task force, that was the defence unit of the PAC that was being trained by the members of APLA. MR ARENDSE Who was the commander of the task force you were a member of? MR MAKOMA It was Tanda. MR ARENDSE Did he recruit you to join this task force? MR MAKOMA Yes, I was recruited by him. MR ARENDSE Were you - tell us about, were you at school at the time? MR MAKOMA Yes, I was still at school, I was doing standard seven. MR ARENDSE Now, this particular incident at Khayelitsha, when did you first become involved in it and how did you become involved in it? MR MAKOMA Tanda came at my home, he asked me to go with him as a member of the PAC and as a person who was in the leadership, that was the normal thing for me to do. We went to a certain house at Site C where we found two comrades. He introduced them as PAC members and he told them that I was also a member of PAC. MR ARENDSE Did they have names and if so, what were their names? Did he introduce them to you by name or code-name? MR MAKOMA He introduced them as members of PAC, he never mentioned their names. MR ARENDSE Did you ask their names? MR MAKOMA No, I never asked. MR ARENDSE Why not, isn't that odd? MR MAKOMA It is not a normal thing to do, to know the people with their names. If you are told that these comrades are members of PAC, that should satisfy you. I was not interested in knowing their names. MR ARENDSE After you were introduced, what happened then? MR MAKOMA Tanda left the house and he said he was coming back. MR ARENDSE And he came back? MR MAKOMA Yes, he came back. MR ARENDSE Did he come back with anything? MR MAKOMA He came with a bag, a blue bag with firearms inside. MR ARENDSE Did you get a firearm? MR MAKOMA Yes, I got an AK47. MR ARENDSE Were you going to do anything with this AK47? MR MAKOMA He told us after some time that we are going to do something because we checked these firearms, if they were working properly. MR ARENDSE Before this, did you handle a firearm before this particular or before he gave the AK47 to you? MR MAKOMA Yes, I once handled a firearm. MR ARENDSE And that was during training I take it? MR MAKOMA Yes. MR ARENDSE This particular operation, had you been on one like this before or was this your first operation? MR MAKOMA That was my first operation. MR ARENDSE Did he tell you that you were now going to carry out an operation, this is now Tanda? MR MAKOMA Yes, he told us that there is a work that we are going to do. MR ARENDSE Did he tell you when it was going to happen, where it was going to happen, who was going to be the object of this operation? Did he give you any details? MR MAKOMA No, he never gave details. MR ARENDSE So what did you do then, did you leave the place? MR MAKOMA Yes, he told us to leave the house and we all left together. MR ARENDSE And where did you go to? MR MAKOMA We went - we took a direction to Site B, we took the road coming from Site B, we went to Site C. We took a road from Site B to Site C. MR ARENDSE Were you on foot or did you drive? MR MAKOMA We were on foot. MR ARENDSE And when you got to Site C, what happened? MR MAKOMA He instructed me - as I was standing next to this road from Site C to Site B on the left-hand site, he instructed me to stand there and if I see the police van I was to give a warning by shooting only once with this AK47. MR ARENDSE And did you do so, did you shoot once? MR MAKOMA The van never appeared from my direction, it appeared from another direction. MR ARENDSE And what happened? MR MAKOMA There were gunshots, a lot of them followed, a lot of gunshots and a van passed next to me and it stopped at a distance and Tanda gave an instruction for us to leave the place. We went back to the veld and through the veld we went to Site C. MR ARENDSE Did you fire any shots? MR MAKOMA No. MR ARENDSE Do you know who fired the shots? MR MAKOMA It's Tanda and the other comrades, but I don't know among them who shot but I know that they were the people who were shooting because they also had firearms. MR ARENDSE Do you know whether anyone was injured or killed during the attack or as a result of the attack? MR MAKOMA No, I do not know. MR ARENDSE Why did you form part of the attack, why did you become part of the operation? What motivated you to become part of the operation? MR MAKOMA As Tanda was the leader of the task and as a member of the PAC, when he came to me and instructed me to do something I went there willingly because I knew that I had a perception that this is done to further the aims of PAC. MR ARENDSE Now you - and I'm referring here Chairperson, to page 39 of the bundle. You also applied for amnesty in respect of the attack on the St James Church in July 1993, is that correct? MR MAKOMA Yes, that is so. MR ARENDSE You made an application there and also a full disclosure and also motivated why you were involved in that attack, you can remember that? MR MAKOMA Yes, I do remember. MR ARENDSE And you've been granted amnesty in respect of that incident? MR MAKOMA Yes, that is so. MR ARENDSE This particular incident, were you arrested at all? Did you appear in court? MR MAKOMA No, I was never arrested and I never appeared in court. MR ARENDSE No further questions, Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR ARENDSE CHAIRPERSON Mr Mapoma, any questions? MR MAPOMA Just one Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Yes. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA Mr Makoma, why do you apply for amnesty for this incident, you never shot anyone? MR MAKOMA I'm applying for amnesty because I was there, even though I didn't shoot anyone. MR MAPOMA Do you associate yourself with the shooting that took place on that day? MR MAKOMA Yes. MR MAPOMA Thank you, no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA ADV SANDI Has anyone been able to ascertain what the police docket has got to say about this, what is contained in it? Were there any victims? MR ARENDSE Advocate Sandi, no. MR MAPOMA Yes, I confirm Chairperson, there appears to be no victim in this matter. DR TSOTSI Did I understand you to say that you belong to APLA task force, not the PAC task force? MR MAKOMA I said, at the time I was a member of PAC and I was also a member of the task force that was being trained by the APLA members in order to defend PAC members. DR TSOTSI I see. CHAIRPERSON Do you draw a distinction between being a member of the task force of the PAC on the one hand and of APLA on the other? Is there a difference between the task force of the PAC and the task force of APLA? MR MAKOMA PAC is a political organisation and APLA is a military wing and a task force is a defence unit but all of them consists of members of the PAC. CHAIRPERSON When you say that you're a member of the task force, it would be the task force of APLA or PAC, it's one and the same thing, is that it? MR MAKOMA It is a task force of PAC. CHAIRPERSON Any questions? Yes, thank you very much, you are excused. Unless you have questions to put? MR ARENDSE No, I don't. MR MAKOMA Thank you. WITNESS EXCUSED MR ARENDSE Chairperson, is this perhaps a convenient point to adjourn before we begin with Mr Shiceka, it's four incidents. CHAIRPERSON Yes, can we make an early beginning please. I've lost a lot of time in this matter. I'd like to have a shorter break for lunch. MR ARENDSE As you please Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON We'll break for 45 minutes, Mr Zuko. MR MAPOMA Yes, Chairperson. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS