amntrans AMNESTY HEARING 1998-09-08 CAPE TOWN 2 ANDILE SHICEKA STAKES RESTAURANT ATTACK https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=52840&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1998/98090710_ct_pac2.htm ON RESUMPTION CHAIRPERSON Yes, Mr Arendse? MR ARENDSE Thank you Chairperson, Honourable Members of the Committee. The next applicant is Mr Andile Shiceka, for the record. CHAIRPERSON Mr Shiceka, are you prepared to take the oath? ANDILE SHICEKA (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON The is a matter in which you are concerned? MR WARNER Mr Chairman, I am concerned with the attack on the restaurant in Claremont. CHAIRPERSON Yes, that's right. EXAMINATION BY MR ARENDSE Thank you Chairperson. Andile, where do you stay when you are here in Cape Town, your address? MR SHICEKA Guguletu NY72 at 11. MR ARENDSE Presently what are you doing, are you working? MR SHICEKA I'm undergoing training, South African Airforce at flight 6 in Pretoria. MR ARENDSE In which department or which section? MR SHICEKA Mustering of personnel. MR ARENDSE Did you have any schooling and if so, up to which standard did you go? Did you complete your schooling? MR SHICEKA I passed my standard 10. Right now I'm busy with my BA Public Administration Degree. MR ARENDSE Through correspondence, is it through correspondence Unisa? MR SHICEKA Unisa. MR ARENDSE Thank you. MR WARNER Mr Chairman, if I may interject, I'm sorry. I believe the Committee has not got a copy of the opposing affidavit. May I hand it in to the Committee? CHAIRPERSON Yes, please do. MR WARNER Thank you. MR WARNER HANDS IN OPPOSING AFFIDAVIT MR ARENDSE Where were you born? MR SHICEKA Here in Cape Town. MR ARENDSE Have you always lived here in Cape Town? MR SHICEKA Correct. MR ARENDSE Did you leave Cape Town at any stage, and if so, when was that? MR SHICEKA I left Cape Town at the time I left for exile in 1989, June. MR ARENDSE And you went into exile you say, where did you go? MR SHICEKA Tanzania and Uganda. MR ARENDSE Why did you go into exile? MR SHICEKA Because I saw that African people are oppressed, therefore I wanted to go and join a liberation movement to liberate them. MR ARENDSE Did you join one of the liberation armies when you went into exile and if so, which of the two liberation armies? MR SHICEKA APLA. MR ARENDSE Would it be correct to assume that when you went into exile, joined APLA, you also underwent military training when you were in exile? MR SHICEKA Correct. MR ARENDSE How old were you when you went into exile, that would have been in 1989? MR SHICEKA I was 20 years old. MR ARENDSE How old are you now? MR SHICEKA 29 years now. MR ARENDSE Did you return to South African at any stage? MR SHICEKA Yes, I returned. MR ARENDSE When was that? MR SHICEKA 1992. MR ARENDSE Did you return to Cape Town or did you return to somewhere else in the country? MR SHICEKA I went to Transkei. MR ARENDSE Is there any particular reason why you went to the Transkei? MR SHICEKA It was because most of the APLA High Command was based in Transkei. MR ARENDSE Now you had already gone into exile in 1989, you underwent military training there, would it be correct to say that you at that stage, in April 1992 when you went to the Transkei, you were already regarded as an APLA soldier or combatant? MR SHICEKA Correct. MR ARENDSE Now, you are applying - or let's just for the record, you had also been involved in the Newcastle Crazy Beat Disco incident and you applied for amnesty and you were granted amnesty in respect of that incident, is that correct? MR SHICEKA Correct. MR ARENDSE You are now applying for amnesty in respect of two incidents, the one at Khayelitsha Train Station and the one at the Claremont restaurant, is that right? MR SHICEKA Correct. MR ARENDSE Now obviously both these attacks took place in Cape Town. MR SHICEKA Correct. MR ARENDSE You had gone from exile into Transkei, at what stage did you then get to Cape Town? How did you get to Cape Town? Did you come so out of your own or did someone tell you to come here to Cape Town? MR SHICEKA I was sent by a member of the High Command called Power. MR ARENDSE Just for the record, this is the same person that has been referred to by your other comrades, Power, Mzala, Jones, is this one and the same person? MR SHICEKA I cannot confirm nor can I deny because what happens most times, at the time when they were involved with Mzala, as they called Mzala, I was not there. So most of the times comrades use combat names. I would not know whether it was Power because at the time they were talking with him I was not there. MR ARENDSE But the person who sent you was code-named Power? MR SHICEKA Correct. CHAIRPERSON Have you since then learnt whether Power and Mzala are the same person? Do you now know whether that is so? MR SHICEKA I know so. CHAIRPERSON That Power and Mzala are the same person? MR SHICEKA Correct. MR ARENDSE Thank you Chairperson. Now when did Power send you to Cape Town? MR SHICEKA 1992, late 1992, I cannot remember the precise dates but it was late in 1992. MR ARENDSE Why were you sent to Cape Town? MR SHICEKA To come and attack white people and policemen and state security officials or the state machinery generally. MR ARENDSE Was that a general instruction or did he specifically say to you you must attack Khayelitsha Station, Claremont restaurant, Heidelberg Tavern or whatever? In other words, did he send you here with specific targets in mind or was the instruction to you just a general one? MR SHICEKA General. MR ARENDSE Whose responsibility was it to identify the targets? MR SHICEKA It was mine and my unit. MR ARENDSE Your unit, is it correct to assume that you were a commander of a unit, an APLA unit? MR SHICEKA Correct. MR ARENDSE Who were the other persons in your unit? MR SHICEKA Chicken Licken, DK, he's called Mokasong Kadaki ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON What name did you say? INTERPRETER The speaker's mike is off. MR SHICEKA Chicken Licken, DK, who were the first I came to Cape Town with. MR ARENDSE So when you came to Cape Town you came with Chicken Licken and DK? Did they have any other names? MR SHICEKA It was Chicken Licken and DK. MR ARENDSE When is the last time that you saw Chicken Licken and DK? Have you seen them recently MR SHICEKA No. MR ARENDSE Were they - well, they were then also in the unit. CHAIRPERSON No, he didn't answer the first part of the question. When last did you see them? MR SHICEKA In 1993 when I left Cape Town in January. CHAIRPERSON Yes, do carry on. MR ARENDSE Now when you came to Cape Town, were you provided with any food, clothing, money, arms, ammunition and if so, who provided you with these means? MR SHICEKA I was not given clothes or money, what I was given was money to travel with and money to eat, for refreshments and food because the road is long between Cape Town and Transkei. MR ARENDSE This money, was it for your use or was it ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON I didn't hear the translation of that. MR ARENDSE Sorry. CHAIRPERSON What did the witness say? INTERPRETER He said he used the money for food and to pay for transport as the road is long between Cape Town and Transkei. MR ARENDSE They money, was it for you personally or also for members of your unit? MR SHICEKA It was money for the unit, all of it. MR ARENDSE How much money was it? MR SHICEKA R1 000. MR ARENDSE Who gave you the money? MR SHICEKA Power. MR ARENDSE Now you left the Transkei in a bus, is that right, in a Translux bus? MR SHICEKA Correct. MR ARENDSE And while you were on the bus or on the bus, you also had arms and ammunition with you, is that right? MR SHICEKA Correct. MR ARENDSE Tell us about that, just describe the arms and ammunition you had on you. MR SHICEKA Two R4's, magazine cassettes, a hand-grenade and a rifle-grenade. MR ARENDSE When you came to Cape Town, where did you go? MR SHICEKA I went to Tembani at Khayelitsha, at 19 April Close Street(?), Khayelitsha, Tembani. That is where I was told I was going to meet Tanda. MR ARENDSE Did you meet him there? MR SHICEKA No, he found us there because when we got there we found ladies and a number of people. When we got there we asked as to whether he was there and we were told that no, he was not there but he was soon to arrive, and he did. In a couple of minutes time, it should be less than one hour, he did arrive. MR ARENDSE When Tanda arrived there had you seen him before then? Did you know who he was? MR SHICEKA No. MR ARENDSE So you met him for the first time? MR SHICEKA Correct. MR ARENDSE Did he introduce himself to you as Tanda or did he introduce himself to you by some other name? MR SHICEKA He gave himself the name Tanda. MR ARENDSE And you and your other comrades introduced yourselves to him, by which names did you introduce yourselves to him? MR SHICEKA I was Thabo, DK and Chicken Licken. MR ARENDSE So Chicken Licken is the constant in the equation here, he kept his name. Then what happened after you met Tanda? MR SHICEKA I told him as to what our mission was because when I left there having talked with Power, he told me that I was going to meet Tanda, whom I then met and I told him what the plan was. We stayed at April Close Street for some days until we left. MR ARENDSE Then how long after you arrived and met Tanda did the Khayelitsha Train Station operation take place? How long after that? Was it days, weeks, months? MR SHICEKA I think it was days. Yes. MR ARENDSE Tell us who was responsible for planning the Khayelitsha Train Station operation? Firstly, who identified that as a target and then who planned the operation? MR SHICEKA It was DK. He came with information that there were policemen at the station, let us go there an carry out an operation. After that what happened, I told him at this time at the station there are a lot of people and if we can go there right now a lot of people could get hurt who were African, so can we not use another time later because it was at about sevenish, late, or eight. I told him we could not go there then, we had to wait a little so that we can make sure that no people get affected, that the ordinary public is not affected. MR ARENDSE So you went a little later in the evening? You can't remember what time? MR SHICEKA No, I cannot remember but it was late then. CHAIRPERSON A month are we talking about? MR SHICEKA In 1992, late in 1992. I cannot remember the date precisely. I think it was late in that year. MR ARENDSE You eventually went to the station to do the operation, is that right? MR SHICEKA Correct. MR ARENDSE Give us the names of your other comrades involved. You were involved, who else was involved in the operation? MR SHICEKA Myself, DK, Shaun and Chicken Licken, Shauna and Chicken Licken. MR ARENDSE Where does - we know now you said that DK and Chicken Licken had arrived with you from the Transkei, Shauna, who is Shauna? Where does Shauna come into the picture? MR SHICEKA Shauna is another member. You see when I was staying at Tembani, I stayed for some few days there. As I saw that our security at that house was not safe, how, that house belonged to a PAC member. A lot of PAC members used to visit that house and sometimes we would hold meetings. I then decided that we must leave this house because at the end of the day we would be caught. That is where I had to meet Shauna, a person that I know as a person who stays here in Cape Town. We used to be at school together. That is the person I approached. When I approached him we then left that house. Other people - I had to stay at Shauna and others had to find their own places, places I had already secured. Shauna I know because we had grown up together. He was an old PAC member, even before I left and most of the times we use his place. MR ARENDSE So there were then four of you in a group? MR SHICEKA Yes, we were four. MR ARENDSE You eventually went to the station, you were armed? MR SHICEKA Correct. CHAIRPERSON By you you're meaning him collectively or him? MR ARENDSE Collectively, sorry Mr Chairperson. All of you in a group, is that right? MR SHICEKA Correct. MR ARENDSE What were you armed with? MR SHICEKA R4, one R5, one AK47. MR ARENDSE You went to the station, what were you going to do there at the station? MR SHICEKA To attack and disarm those policemen. MR ARENDSE Do you know whether there were any policemen at the station or on the station? MR SHICEKA The information brought by DK was that there were policemen there. MR ARENDSE Just tell us what happened, how did you go about the operation? MR SHICEKA We went there. When we got there at the ...[indistinct] Station, it has a bush area. We stayed behind those bushes and we sent DK to go again and to check whether those policemen are still there. DK did go there, he went to look. When he returned he ...[indistinct] all the things are okay. When we went there we saw someone running. Apparently he saw us when we went up holding weapons. Apparently when he ran towards the other policemen he was going to report that there are people who are coming to attack them. When we reached the area it was some time after he had gone in and we saw that that policeman was inside a room. The door of the room was closed. We shot through the door. What happened was, the door was locked and we could not go into that room. We withdrew after having shot through that door. MR ARENDSE Did you shoot through the door? MR SHICEKA Yes, it was I and DK, others were holding firing cover. MR ARENDSE Now we know that there was someone behind the door, in the room. You know there was a person there and that person died as a result of the shooting? MR SHICEKA We knew that there were people inside that room but that a person was killed at that time we only got to hear about that the following day. MR ARENDSE Do you know whether any policemen went into that room or ran into that room? MR SHICEKA No, I cannot confirm that I know that they went into that room but what DK came to tell us after having checked was that those policemen were inside that room. When we went to go and attack there, when we got there the door was closed. Apparently that person who had ran had also gone into that room. That is when we started shooting through that door. MR ARENDSE Were you - would it be correct to say that you were under the impression, based on what DK had told you, that there were policemen in that room? MR SHICEKA Correct. MR ARENDSE Is that the reason why you shot through the door? MR SHICEKA Correct. MR ARENDSE After the attack, after you finished shooting, what happened? MR SHICEKA We withdrew. After withdrawing we went to Shauna's house. MR ARENDSE This attack, would you describe it as having been successful or unsuccessful? MR SHICEKA Unsuccessful. MR ARENDSE Why do you say that? MR SHICEKA Because when we heard over the news, we only heard that it was not the right person who had died. By implication it was not the correct person who had died. MR ARENDSE How do you feel about the fact that someone died that you intend to kill or disarm or injure? MR SHICEKA It is a very, very hurtful thing. CHAIRPERSON But you knew, you knew when you fired into the room that there were people and the wrong people might get shot? MR SHICEKA Yes, I shot. After having received information that there were policemen in that room, and the person had told us so was my own comrade whom I trusted. That he told us that there were policemen was my reason why I went to go and attack there. MR ARENDSE Do you know the identify of the security guard who was killed in the attack? MR SHICEKA No. MR ARENDSE How do you feel about the fact that as security guard was killed instead of a policeman? MR SHICEKA It is - I'm hurt. That is why I applied for amnesty, to enable those who were there to know what actually happened. I then decided to come and explain what all happened there. MR ARENDSE Were you arrested at all in connection with this operation? MR SHICEKA No, I was not arrested. What happened, when I was arrested at Newcastle, I was charged simultaneously for this case in Cape Town but after some time the case was withdrawn. MR ARENDSE Did you stay in Cape Town after this operation or did you go back to Transkei? MR SHICEKA I went back to Transkei. MR ARENDSE On a bus? MR SHICEKA Correct. MR ARENDSE Did you return to Cape Town at all after that? MR SHICEKA When I went to Transkei, after having heard what had happened, I was forced to come back to come and explain what actually happened and how all of these things happened. MR ARENDSE When you came back ...[intervention] MR SHICEKA I went to Transkei firstly to go and explain what happened here at Khayelitsha Station, to Power as the member of the High Command, that is mistake has happened. After that I moved from Transkei to Cape Town. MR ARENDSE Were you told to come back to Cape Town or did you just return to Cape Town on your own? MR SHICEKA I was told to come back to Cape Town. MR ARENDSE Who told you to come back to Cape Town? MR SHICEKA Power. MR ARENDSE Why did you have to come back to Cape Town? Did you come to Cape Town with any orders or instructions? MR SHICEKA They were orders. MR ARENDSE What were they? MR SHICEKA To come and attack white people. MR ARENDSE Where? Did they mention any names of any white people or was it again a general instruction? MR SHICEKA Where white people are congregated we must attack. MR ARENDSE When you were given this instruction, did you ask any questions? Did you say: "But you know, should we just attack any white people, are all the same, are they all bad"? Just to use an example, Joe Slovo may have been one of these white people congregating with other white people. Did you question the instruction at all? MR SHICEKA No, I did not ask. MR ARENDSE Why not? MR SHICEKA At APLA you do not question an order, you carry it out as is. You carry the operation out and then you ask questions later. MR ARENDSE Because it seems to me that, and you must correct me if I'm wrong here, this order or instruction now differs from the previous one where you are attacking the police, army and the purpose being to disarm them and to get arms and ammunition, is that right? Is this now a different instruction? MR SHICEKA They are the same. MR ARENDSE They are the same? MR SHICEKA Yes. MR ARENDSE Can you explain? MR SHICEKA I'll explain this way. Police and SADF are part of the state machinery. The government protects its own interests by using the police and automatically they are our targets as APLA. White people because of their position materially, being oppressed by them. Nobody knows in this meeting that white people oppressed us, everyone knows so. You could then not be able to determine who is bad or who is not bad. All of them stay in the same place. I do not see any difference. APLA has been hitting at white people. It is not a new thing that white people have been hit, it's been a longstanding thing for APLA to attack white people. I do not see any difference. MR ARENDSE Now when you returned to Cape Town on the 25th - sorry, you returned to Cape Town on the 25th of December, that's on Xmas day, is that right, 1992? MR SHICEKA Correct. MR ARENDSE Were you alone or did you have company? MR SHICEKA I was with Scorpion. MR ARENDSE Does Scorpion have another name? MR SHICEKA Correct. MR ARENDSE What is his other name? MR SHICEKA It is Gadluma or Vuyisile. MR ARENDSE When was the last time you saw him? CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] MR ARENDSE Sorry? CHAIRPERSON I didn't get that name, the first one. Could you spell that for me? MR SHICEKA Gadluma. CHAIRPERSON Could you spell that? MR SHICEKA G-A-D-L-U-M-A. CHAIRPERSON What was his full names? MR SHICEKA I do not know his full names because his name that he used in Transkei was Vuyisile. Here in Cape Town he did not use that Vuyisile name, he used Gadluma. MR ARENDSE Thank you. The two of you came together from Transkei in a bus I take it? MR SHICEKA Correct. MR ARENDSE Where did you go to when you arrived in Cape Town? MR SHICEKA We went to Shauna's place. MR ARENDSE And at Shauna's place, was anyone else there at Shauna's place? MR SHICEKA Yes, there was. MR ARENDSE Who was that? MR SHICEKA DK. MR ARENDSE Did DK talk to you, did he speak to you, did he say anything to you? MR SHICEKA Yes. MR ARENDSE What was that? MR SHICEKA When I arrived he said: "Commander there is a place I saw that I have been visiting from time to time to check out". MR ARENDSE And which place was that? MR SHICEKA Steakhouse at Claremont. MR ARENDSE And after he told you that - so this is a target which DK had identified, is that right? MR SHICEKA Correct. MR ARENDSE Had you been there before? MR SHICEKA No, I had never gone there before. MR ARENDSE Before then, did you know where Claremont was? MR SHICEKA I know Claremont. MR ARENDSE Did you go to the restaurant just after he told you that he had identified the restaurant as a target or was it only later that you went? Did you go that same day or did you go the following day or the following week? MR SHICEKA The same day I went there. MR ARENDSE The same day? MR SHICEKA Correct. MR ARENDSE How did you get there? MR SHICEKA We used public transport to check it out. I too saw that it was a proper place. We went inside and bought tobacco and I saw white people frequent the place. We went back with the intent that at night we would return. MR ARENDSE Did you return? MR SHICEKA We did. MR ARENDSE How did you return, how did you come back to the restaurant later that night? MR SHICEKA We stole a car, a Datsun. We stole a yellow 1400 Datsun and went with it. MR ARENDSE Who drove? MR SHICEKA DK. MR ARENDSE And where were - so DK's driving, are you in the vehicle, anyone else in the vehicle? MR SHICEKA Scorpion, Chicken Licken. MR ARENDSE Where are you sitting? MR SHICEKA Behind the driver. MR ARENDSE Where is Chicken Licken sitting? MR SHICEKA Front seat next to the driver. MR ARENDSE And Scorpion? MR SHICEKA At the back of Chicken Licken. MR ARENDSE Did DK drive to the restaurant directly? MR SHICEKA Correct. MR ARENDSE He stopped the vehicle at some point, where did he stop the vehicle? MR SHICEKA At a corner. MR ARENDSE Then tell us what happened after that. MR SHICEKA I told him to go inside to see if everything is still okay. He did and he returned telling us ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON You told who to go inside? MR SHICEKA DK. CHAIRPERSON Yes? MR SHICEKA After that he returned and said everything is okay. When he did so I said: "Let's go ...[indistinct]. We went inside, myself and Scorpion stood at the door. We did not go inside, we stood at the doors, we shot inside. After having done so we went back to our car, we drove back to Shauna's place. MR ARENDSE Did you - you stood at the door and you just shot, you just shot indiscriminately, you didn't look at who or what you were shooting at? MR SHICEKA DK had already checked that everything is okay. When we went there we did not go to check again, we went there to shoot. As to who was inside, we knew that it was white people and we had gone there to shoot them. MR ARENDSE What was the objective? MR SHICEKA To fulfil the aims and objectives of the PAC. MR ARENDSE Which was? MR SHICEKA To liberate the African masses from the white oppressors. MR ARENDSE How were you going to do that by standing at the entrance of a restaurant in Claremont and shooting at people inside the restaurant? MR SHICEKA We saw those people inside the restaurant. The restaurant has windows, you can see who is inside. MR ARENDSE My question is, how were you going to achieve the objectives of the PAC and APLA by shooting at people sitting inside the restaurant? MR SHICEKA We would achieve these aims and objectives in this fashion: A white person is an oppressor, nobody does not know this then. If we hit white people hard, clearly white people are going to go to their leaders, de Klerk or whoever was leading them in parliament and say: "Gents you can see it is difficult, these people are attacking us, please give the land back to its own people". We must put pressure on the white public to show that we are very serious about what we want. MR ARENDSE So would it be correct to say then that it is not as if that evening or during that operation you were going to immediately achieve your objective, but it was a form of applying pressure on the government of the day, the apartheid government of the day? You're nodding, the machine can't pick up your - what is your answer to that? MR SHICEKA Can you please repeat? MR ARENDSE Would it be correct to say that operation that day or that night, you weren't going to achieve your objectives immediately. The operation was a form of applying pressure on the apartheid government of the day, for them to realise that you are serious about liberating the black masses? MR SHICEKA Correct. MR ARENDSE If I may just deal with this also. There were also a number of attacks around that period, St James, Heidelberg, the Newcastle Disco, was that part of a pattern? Was that part of the same pattern of attacks that were now being launched by APLA? MR SHICEKA Correct. MR ARENDSE You were involved in the Newcastle Disco shootings. MR SHICEKA Correct. MR ARENDSE You applied for amnesty and you were granted amnesty in respect of that incident. MR SHICEKA Correct. MR ARENDSE The objective, was the objective in that attack the same as with this one, the Claremont restaurant attack? MR SHICEKA Correct. MR ARENDSE After the - the attack, did it last a matter of minutes, seconds, how long did it last? MR SHICEKA Seconds. MR ARENDSE Can you remember how many rounds you fired? MR SHICEKA No. MR ARENDSE After the attack was finished you obviously ran back to the bakkie and you drove off, what happened to the bakkie? MR SHICEKA We abandoned it at Downto(?). MR ARENDSE Do you know what happened as a result of the attack, have you learnt subsequently what happened? MR SHICEKA Yes, we got to hear. MR ARENDSE Did you make a report on the attack? MR SHICEKA Yes, I did make a report and the operation was claimed by APLA. MR ARENDSE Who did you report to? MR SHICEKA Power. MR ARENDSE After the attack, did you stay on in Cape Town? MR SHICEKA For some time, yes. I stayed for some time, yes. I stayed for a short period. MR ARENDSE You left Cape Town? MR SHICEKA I only left Cape Town the following year because this happened on the 26th of December and then I left in January 1993. MR ARENDSE So it wasn't long after the attack that you left Cape Town? MR SHICEKA I'm sure I stayed three to four weeks. I'm sure I left at the end of January. MR ARENDSE Were you arrested at all in connection with this attack? MR SHICEKA No, I was not arrested for this case. What happened I was arrested for the one at Newcastle and the police as a further charge, charged me for the one at Claremont. They charged me for the one at Claremont but through the lack of evidence the case was withdrawn. MR ARENDSE You were arrested subsequently in connection with the Newcastle matter, is that right? MR SHICEKA Correct. MR ARENDSE And there you were convicted and sentenced to 25 years? MR SHICEKA Correct. MR ARENDSE But this case was withdrawn, the Claremont case? MR SHICEKA Correct. MR ARENDSE Just in retrospect. Now it's 1998 in September and this attack happened in December of 1992, how do you now feel about what happened, about the attack? And that it could have been worse, a number of people could have been killed as a result of the attack. MR SHICEKA We do not complain today about that. What happens, for the part of reconciliation, let us forgive each other and not accuse each other about this or that. All wars are not exciting because people die, especially those who are not guilty. Those who are involved as perpetrators do not die. This is very sad. I feel very sad. What could we do? We could not allow our people getting killed whilst we were there and allow ...[intervention] MR ARENDSE What happened about the attack? It could have been worse, a number of people could have been killed because of the attack, fortunately no-one was killed. CHAIRPERSON Is that a question or is that a fact? MR ARENDSE I speak under correction but it is a fact that no-one was killed as a result of the attack. Some people were injured. MR SHICEKA ...[inaudible] MR ARENDSE The people who were in the restaurant at the time - Mr Chairman, just for the record, I'm referring not to page number 2 of the bundle, but the second page after the index of your bundle. There is a short summary of the attack and there is also a list of names. It will be said that these people whose names appear here as victims, Mr Malcolm Visser, owner of the restaurant, Lizette Theunissen, Dennis Smith, Jason Collie, Alan Williams, Amanda Warner, that these persons were innocent and unarmed. You were armed with an AK47 or with an R4 rifle, whatever it was, standing in front of a restaurant or shooting at them. Do you want to comment, that the attack was launched on innocent unarmed people, white people? MR SHICEKA What I can say is that a white person, all of them, all of them who underwent compulsory military training. When people say they are innocent civilians I may not understand, because when you undergo military training that person is a complete soldier. What I want to say in relation to what is written there, all of those people must come together with us and let us talk reconciliation so that what happened in the years past can never happen again, and all of us build our country together. MR ARENDSE Now Chairperson, I take it that by now you have a copy of this affidavit in front of you, it's by Amanda Warner. She is represented here today. It looks like the date is 7, at the back here: 7.09.1998, I'm not sure. 7 September '98 ja, is the date of this affidavit. Andile, you've also had a look at this affidavit, is that correct, the one by Amanda Warner? MR SHICEKA I've seen it already. MR ARENDSE Now I just want to raise a few things with you in the affidavit. It appears from this affidavit, and we've got no reason to question the factual correctness of it Chairperson, there are a number of submissions, conclusions and so on. ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] MR ARENDSE Yes, but it would appear, and we accept, that she was a waitress on the evening of the 26th of December 1992, at this restaurant. She says that she was sitting in the restaurant round about 10H30 when she heard a series of explosions. Now she had to help a number of people who had apparently got injured as a result of the attack, including Mr Visser who is the owner of the restaurant. Now what I want to ask you about is, she says she suffers or she suffered severe emotional trauma as a result of this attack and she also says that she harbours a fear that her attackers, which would include you, would hunt her down and kill her. Do you want to comment on that? She's afraid that you will hunt her down and kill her. MR SHICEKA I cannot do such a thing, I do not hate her. I cannot do such a thing. You see, what made us fight is no more, we are now one people. MR ARENDSE Are her fears well-founded or grounded, or doesn't she have any basis to fear anything from you? MR SHICEKA There is no reason for her to fear anything. Even if I can meet her I can sit down with her so that I can explain everything and to explain to her why everything happened the way it did. MR ARENDSE I take it you don't know her, you haven't seen her, you don't know what she looks like? MR SHICEKA I never saw her, I do not know her. MR ARENDSE She said that is why she is now living in the United Kingdom, just as a matter of interest. Now she opposes your application for amnesty on a number of grounds, and I just want to run through them with you. She says that what you did, the act which you perpetrated that night, was not a good faith act associated with a political objective. Do you want to comment on that? MR SHICEKA Yes. MR ARENDSE Sorry, just before you - to put it another way around, this was a purely criminal act. You decided with your cronies to go there, open up fire and to shoot them. This has got nothing to do with politics, it has nothing to do with the conflicts of the past. That is what she is saying. MR SHICEKA Let me tell it this way. In the way she explains, you see that operation was claimed by APLA under the code name Kabambata. When she says it was a simple criminal act from the PAC principles, the PAC do not hate white people. They believe that there is only one race, the human race. We did not hit white people because we hate them. There is only one thing we wanted from them, to allow us freedom to respect human beings, us as human beings. We did not hit them because we hated them. We do not hate white people because they are white, even from PAC principles. What happened is that they did not recognise us as human beings. MR ARENDSE Now you have already told us that you were a member of the PAC and of APLA, but she says that you did not commit this particular offence in furtherance of your struggle against the state. This was an attack on innocent unarmed civilians and had nothing to do with your struggle against the state at the time. MR SHICEKA This we did as members of APLA. APLA has accepted responsibility for the operation. In your thoughts, how can I go and kill people without anticipating any gains? I cannot move from Transkei and go and shoot people I do not know just for the fun of it. All of this was planned by APLA and us as operatives of APLA executed that job. MR ARENDSE Just to take your last point, you say you executed this job. Did you have reason to believe that the job that you were carrying out was within the scope of your duties as an APLA soldier, as an APLA combatant? Because she also claims that you did not have reasonable grounds to believe that you were doing this within the scope of your job as a combatant. MR SHICEKA I am an APLA soldier, I did this, I'm not denying anything. I was only executing the orders that were given to me as a disciplined member of APLA. You carry an order as it is and then you ask questions later. MR ARENDSE Then she also goes on to say that you also - the offence in respect of which you are applying for amnesty, this is the Claremont restaurant, cannot be associated with a political objective because firstly she says you were motivated by malice and a hatred of white people in general. MR SHICEKA We never hated white people, we regarded them as human beings like us but we had a problem in terms of their attitude, they were oppressing the Africans. We were joining the political organisations so as to liberate the Africans. We were to fight with the government to show the government that we don't like the manner in which we were being regarded. That doesn't imply that we hated white people. You can also find that in our preamble of the PAC, that all of us belonged to one race and that is the human race. We never hated white people, we hated oppression. No-one like oppression in the whole world. MR ARENDSE She also alleges that the Claremont restaurant attack was not committed within the context of a political uprising or disturbance, or in reaction to a political uprising or disturbance. MR SHICEKA APLA only suspended its armed struggle on the 16th of January 1994. The operation took place in 1992. That proves that we were in the battle with the whites up until the time when the armed struggle was suspended. MR ARENDSE She also claims that the offence wasn't even directed primarily at white people because half of the people who worked at the restaurant were 50% black. She doesn't say, interesting enough, how many white people were in the restaurant. I take it that most people who work at any place are mostly black. Do you want to comment on that? Did you take into account that there were not only white people there but there were also black people there, whether they were working there or whether they were eating there? MR SHICEKA There were only white people there. MR ARENDSE Now she also says that you failed to disclose why the Claremont restaurant was selected as a target or why it was selected as a legitimate target. MR SHICEKA That restaurant at Claremont was frequented by white people. We targeted it because we knew that it was frequented by white people. Even the other places that were frequented by white people were being hit. We couldn't hit all of them all at once. On that particular day we identified it as our target and that is why we had to hit that restaurant. MR ARENDSE She also says that neither the PAC nor APLA were aware of this target or that you had selected this restaurant as a target. MR SHICEKA I have a question now. How did APLA claim the responsibility of that operation, if it wasn't approved by APLA? How can APLA claim responsibility? That operation was claimed under the code name Kambambata. If she says that that was not approved by APLA, I don't know what that means because I know that APLA claimed responsibility. MR ARENDSE She also alleges that you gained personally from this, from the commission of this offence because you were paid R1 000, R150 of which you spent on alcohol in a shebeen and also to buy clothes. MR SHICEKA We got R1 000 from Transkei. When we were leaving Transkei we were given that money to use it for transport because if you have to take a bus you have to pay and buy food. We were not given R1 000 because we were hired, we were not mercenaries. APLA was not a mercenary organisation. We were given that money so that we don't encounter problems on the way. We needed transport, we needed money to pay the bus and buy food until we reach our destination safely. MR ARENDSE Now I don't think it's quite legitimate, but let me ask you anyway. She seems to equate what you did then in December 1992, she seems to equate that with what has been happening recently, for example at Planet Hollywood and some other such, what is regarded as terrorist attacks. Are they the same? MR SHICEKA No. MR ARENDSE Why do you say they're not the same? MR SHICEKA In that there is a difference between a terrorist and a guerilla fighter. I'm not a terrorist, I'm an indigenous South African and I'm a guerilla fighter. For me to liberate the African people from the oppressors I have to come to the people who were born in South Africa. What happened in Plant Hollywood, as you call it, it is a terrorism action. It is about people who live somewhere else and they go to another place and terrorise people there. I'm not a terrorist, I'm a guerilla fighter. As I've told you, there is a difference between the two. The people who committed that act in the Plant Hollywood, they've got their own problems with America and of which we are, I'm not part of that, I'm just a guerilla fighter. I have all the rights to fight for liberation, to fight for liberation of the African people. MR ARENDSE The conditions in 1992, December 1992, did they differ from the conditions now in September 1998? I'm referring particularly to the political conditions. MR SHICEKA There is a big difference. MR ARENDSE Just explain briefly what that difference is, or what you understand the difference to be. MR SHICEKA I'm a member of the airforce, I have white friends and they accept me as much as I accept them. In most places you will find white people visiting us and even in Guguletu you will find white people there visiting friends, there are not problems but previously that never used to be the case. Whether we like it or not we have problems but today it looks like everyone is happy. The situation is different from the previous one. MR ARENDSE Just lastly, you - I may have dealt with it but let me just, just in case I didn't, she says that you were, you just did this out of spite. You were just spiteful to take this gun, stand in front of a restaurant and just shoot at them. It's just because it was a white person that you did this out of spite. MR SHICEKA I'm a full member of PAC. I am a member of PAC and as a member of PAC, PAC doesn't hate white people. I also don't hate white people. A white person is a human being just like myself. The problem that we had was this, one was the oppressor and the other one was the oppressed. I was part of those who were oppressed. For me to free myself from this oppression, I had no alternative, I had to free myself. If I hated white men, why can't I kill them right now? I'm staying with them, we have friends, we do things together, how do I hate a white person? He is also a human being. I don't hate a white man. MR ARENDSE Thank you Chairperson, no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR ARENDSE CHAIRPERSON Any questions you wish to put to this witness, or the applicant rather? MR WARNER Thank you Mr Chairman, I do have some questions. CHAIRPERSON Yes. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR WARNER Andile, when you got to Cape Town, you said you told the other members what your mission was and you told them what your plan was, what was that? What was your plan that you'd come down from Transkei with? What were the details of your plan? MR SHICEKA Will you please repeat your question Sir? MR WARNER You were asked when you arrived in Cape Town, who was there? You said there was Thabo, DK and Chicken Licken. Then you were asked: "What happened after that"?, and you said that you told those people what their mission was and you also told them what your plan was. Now I'm asking you what was your plan. MR SHICEKA I had one plan, to execute orders that were given to me. Together with all those people who were in my company we had one purpose, no-one had a different purpose because whatever I was going to do I was going to do it with those people. MR WARNER I'm sorry I still don't understand what it was that you told them that you were, you briefed them on what you were going to do, you briefed them on what your instructions were from the High Command, what were those instructions, what did you tell them you were going to do? MR SHICEKA To attack the police, attack government and attack white people. MR WARNER And do I understand that they also didn't question the general statement of: "Attack white people"? They didn't question that, is that correct? MR SHICEKA That is correct. MR WARNER So no discussion ensued on what it meant to attack white people and who was included in the term: "white people", is that correct? MR SHICEKA That is correct. MR WARNER A little while after that you were asked: "Who planned the train attack"? and you said that is was DK. You went on to say that DK had said that you must, that it was a good idea for you to attack the train station, and the reason he gave for that was that there were policemen there, in other words, there was a target for you there, the policemen were there, is that correct? MR SHICEKA That is correct. MR WARNER You then said to him that you didn't want to do it at the time of the day which he had suggested and your reason for that was that you did not want to hurt innocent civilian African people, is that correct? MR SHICEKA That is correct. MR WARNER Did your statements there come from your own personal moral convictions or is it a policy of APLA not to kill innocent people? MR SHICEKA Africans. MR WARNER So you are saying that it is the policy of APLA to kill white people? MR SHICEKA That is correct. MR WARNER Even though you do not hate them? MR SHICEKA That is correct. MR WARNER If I can just draw your attention to the station attack. You went on to say that you went to attack the station and your purpose in attacking the station was to attack and disarm the policemen, is that correct? MR SHICEKA That is correct. MR WARNER You see what I am seeing here, from what we have heard today, is a common thread in that it would appear that the APLA attacks which we have heard about today have all, with the exception of this one, had as their aim the acquiring of weapons for APLA, would you agree with that? MR SHICEKA Will you please repeat your question? MR WARNER Okay. Toady we've heard applications in terms of a number of offences, applications for amnesty. I'm putting it to you that the common thread in all of those application, with the exception of this one, is that the purpose behind them was to attack police and military installations in order to acquire weapons to arm APLA soldiers, is that correct? MR SHICEKA That is not true. MR WARNER Could you point me to one of the other attacks that we have heard of today, amnesty applications in terms of those attacks, where the purpose was something other than to acquire arms? MR SHICEKA I don't want to talk about something that was said or mentioned by other people, let us stick to my case. MR WARNER Okay. Would you agree with me that you carried out two operations in Cape Town in December of 1992? The first one, what was the purpose of that one, the direct purpose, the attack on the police at the Khayelitsha station? What was the main purpose of that attack? MR SHICEKA Well it was to attack and disarm. MR WARNER Okay, so in other words, because you were unable to disarm and acquire weapons you viewed that operation as being unsuccessful, is that correct? MR SHICEKA That is correct. MR WARNER But there was also a further reason why you viewed the operation as being unsuccessful, isn't there? You viewed it as being unsuccessful because you killed an innocent person instead of a policeman, is that correct as well? MR SHICEKA That is correct. MR WARNER Now why did you not want to kill this other person, is it because - did you know if this was a black or a white person, first of all? MR SHICEKA Will you please repeat that question? MR WARNER Okay. In the police station attack, sorry, the train station attack, you fired through a locked door. Now you knew there were people inside there, you thought they were policemen, did you know as a fact that they were all white people or black people or policemen? You didn't know that, so what I'm putting to you is that there may well have been a white person in there. If that white person had got killed, would you then have changed your opinion as to whether the attack was successful or not? MR SHICEKA That is correct. MR WARNER Thank you. You also went on to state that your main reason for attacking the room as such, was that you believed, you genuinely believed and had no reason to disbelieve that there were policemen inside the room. Do I understand that correct? MR SHICEKA Yes, I understand that. MR WARNER So your target there was the policemen, is that correct? MR SHICEKA That is correct. MR WARNER You made two affidavits which I'm in possession of, the one the official affidavit, the other one is a sworn statement. Do you remember making those statements? MR SHICEKA Excuse me? MR WARNER Do you remember making any statements in connection with your amnesty application? CHAIRPERSON If it's part of the bundle, just refer him to the page please. MR WARNER Mr Chairman, I don't know if I have the same bundle as the Committee but I have a page 8, a statement made by Andile, and the surname appears to be spelt incorrectly, and in brackets (Thabo). CHAIRPERSON Just place that before him. Yes? MR WARNER Do you admit that is a statement which you've made? MR SHICEKA That is correct. MR WARNER You refer there to a yellow Datsun 1200, is that a car or a bakkie? MR SHICEKA It is a car. MR WARNER Thank you. MR WARNER I'd now like to turn to your statement which you made, your affidavit. In paragraph 6.1 thereof you said that Power, also known as Mzala, gave you orders to come to Cape Town and carry on operations in which you were to attack members of the then racist South African Police, South African Defence Force and other white people. You said that you were told that the purpose was to take the war to white areas and to steal by force weapons from the police and from members of the Defence Force, is that correct? MR SHICEKA That is correct. MR WARNER In your evidence which you gave earlier on today you mentioned something which differs from that affidavit in that you said you were ordered to attack places where white people congregated. Could you explain why you didn't word it in that way in your affidavit? MR ARENDSE Just a correction Chairperson, it's not an affidavit it's just a signed statement. CHAIRPERSON Very well, this contradiction, this difference is there nevertheless. What is the point? MR WARNER I'd like to put it to you that what your commander actually told you was that you were to come and attack white members of the South African Police and white members of the South African Defence Force. What is your comment on that? MR SHICEKA If you take a look at this statement, at 6.1 number 6, it is written there that in 1992 a member known as Power or generally known as Mzala gave me an order to carry operations in Cape Town where I was to attack racist South African Police and South African Defence Force and other white people. He didn't mention that I have to hit only South African Defence Force and South African Police alone. It is added there: "and white people". MR WARNER Okay. So would you have this Commission believe then that what is written in 6.1 is the truth? MR SHICEKA I am not trying to say that, because now when you are talking to me you are talking about two things only, the SADF and SAP, you omit the third one and that is why I read all of that portion there. CHAIRPERSON No, I think the question is you accept paragraph 6.1 is correct? MR SHICEKA That is correct. MR WARNER So then it must follow by necessary implication, that what you've said today is not true, is that not correct? CHAIRPERSON In what way? MR SHICEKA Mr Chair, in that the reference to attacking places where white people gather was not part of their order. CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] instructions are to attack white people, does it matter where? MR WARNER Mr Chair, what I would like to put to the applicant is that this part about attacking white people generally is something which he conceived on his own and that that was never part of his orders, it was something he took upon himself. And if one looks at the generality of that statement, it seems unlikely that he would be given such a wide and generalised order or that that would fulfil the meaning of the word: "order". CHAIRPERSON You'll recall his evidence where he said the attack on all whites because all whites underwent compulsory military training. So the direction was that all whites because they all underwent military training. Do you recall that sentence in his evidence? MR WARNER Mr Chair, I do recall that sentence, and if that may lead me on to my next question. Are you not aware that female white persons were not obliged to do compulsory military training, firstly. Secondly, that full-time students did not do compulsory military training and thirdly, that the persons working at that particular restaurant were all either female or full-time students, what is your comment on that? MR SHICEKA I don't know that. All I know is that each and every white person undergoes training. MR WARNER Sir, as an APLA ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Which is strictly speaking not correct, is it? There was a woman who is a waitress working in that place, at the restaurant. You said: "all whites underwent military training". That is a general statement and I'm sure you must concede that that is not what you intend to convey or is it? MR SHICEKA What I was told is this. All the South African white people were trained militarily. MR WARNER So you Sir, as an APLA soldier, not only a soldier but also a commander of your unit knew your enemy so badly that you were under the mistaken belief that your enemy was 50% female, how can that be? MR SHICEKA If we hit white people we don't check whether they are women or men. MR WARNER Are you telling this ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON And you don't check whether they have had military training or not? MR SHICEKA That is correct. MR WARNER Sir, isn't that one of the characteristics of racism, is that a particular group of people are seen as being all the same just because they are white? In other words, just because they are white they all had military training, they were all oppressors, is that not racist? MR SHICEKA We must also remember this, a white man is an oppressor, we were oppressed by white people and that is why we were hitting white people. MR WARNER What about the white people who were in violent opposition to the apartheid regime, would you hit them as well? Would you hit comrade Slovo for example, as a white person? MR SHICEKA If he happened to be among the people that I was attacking, I wouldn't differentiate, I would hit him, it's obvious. MR WARNER Okay, thank you. On the night when you went to see this particular restaurant, to attack the restaurant, you said just now that you first went there earlier in the day and checked the place out and decided that it was a good target. It would appear that DK was a subordinate to you and you first had to approve the target, is that correct? MR SHICEKA I'm a commander and DK is a commissar. In APLA we didn't operate as individuals, we operated collectively. I can also select a target and bring it to them and we discuss about this target but the last person to take the final decision is myself, the commander. That is why when DK came to me and he told me to go to the restaurant I went to that restaurant also and I confirmed and I approved that this is a real target, and late in the evening we went there to hit the restaurant. MR WARNER It is my information and I put it to you that there were, as alleged in the affidavit, at least 50% of the staff members were actually black and not white. It so happens that at the time of the attack the black staff had for some or other reason left earlier than they usually do. Was this part of the plan, was this actually organised, that the black staff would not be there? MR SHICEKA I don't know. I can't respond to that because I do not know that, because we don't plan with people who work in the restaurants. MR WARNER Okay. So then what you're saying is that is was unlikely that they would have been warned of attack and left early for that reason? MR SHICEKA Who could have given them a warning? MR WARNER Okay, I accept that there was no warning. Now what I put to you is that you went there earlier in the day during the daytime and you said that you went inside and bought tobacco, by the way, what tobacco was it that you bought? MR SHICEKA I can't remember, the reason being this, I don't smoke. I went inside, I bought something. Even if I wasn't going to use that but I bought it because I wanted to check thoroughly. Even if I had thrown that cigarette away but I went there to check inside. For me to check inside I had to do something, I had to pretend as if I was buying something. MR WARNER So you went inside the restaurant, being the same one which you later that evening attacked, is that correct? MR SHICEKA ...[inaudible] CHAIRPERSON What was his answer? MR WARNER Then I want to ask you, when you went inside you looked around, what did you see, who was in the restaurant at the time you looked around to see what sort of people frequented that restaurant? MR SHICEKA I saw white people. MR WARNER Are you telling the Commission that you did not see any black people in the restaurant? MR SHICEKA I saw white people. If he or she was there I didn't see him or her but I saw white people. MR WARNER Did it occur to you that there may have been black people either working or eating in the restaurant? MR SHICEKA No, I didn't think about that. MR WARNER Alright, let me take you to the evening of the attack, did you first drive past the restaurant or how did you get to the place where you parked your car? MR SHICEKA Have you been to that restaurant, because I want to explain to you so that you can get a proper picture. It's next to the robots. As DK was driving we stopped next to it and I alighted from the vehicle and I went inside, I bought tobacco. There's a first street, I'm not sure whether it is a pre-school but there is something there next to the restaurant. When I went inside the car took a turn so that when I went back, I came out of the restaurant, I would find the car on the road. MR WARNER Can I show you a map of the two roads and you can perhaps draw with a pen on there where the car parked and where the restaurant is. If I can show that to you. Could you just make the marks on both please. Could you put an "A" for where the car was parked and a "B" for where the restaurant is please. MAP HANDED TO APPLICANT FOR INDICATIONS MR SHICEKA ...[no English translation] I can see the Landsdowne Road. Will you please come closer to me because I want to be sure, I want to tick at the right place. Will you please come closer to me because I can't see where the robot is here. MR WARNER Are you able to make those marks on the map? CHAIRPERSON Is this crucial to the application or is it just a matter of side interest? MR WARNER I believe that it may be. I wish to point out the, whether the vehicle passed the restaurant first or whether it went through the back street, because from where the vehicle was, I believe, parked ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Yes. The event occurred, they were there, they got back. Now is this crucial to know how they went there and how they got back? MR WARNER What I'm trying to show is that this reconnaissance trip to the restaurant didn't happen as it is being said it happened. MR WARNER Okay, but they went there nevertheless? MR WARNER I don't think they went to that restaurant. CHAIRPERSON Well that's another matter. MR WARNER The restaurant doesn't sell cigarettes, the shop next door sells cigarettes. CHAIRPERSON Well now put it along those lines, if you are saying that they never went to this restaurant at all. Please carry on. MR WARNER I put it to you then that your colleague, your comrade, did not go to the Stake's Restaurant to check the restaurant out because apparently, according to the police report, somebody came and bought cigarettes at the shop next door. Now can you tell us, this restaurant, was it right on the corner or was the shop(?) next to the shop on the corner? MR SHICEKA There is a shop at the corner with a machine. The restaurant was next to the shop. There is a shop at - the fist building is a shop and there is a restaurant, and there's only a passage where one can park a car. There is nothing after the restaurant. MR WARNER Okay, thank you. No further questions on that point. Your counsel said that it was not possible for, or you said that it was not possible for APLA not to have known about this operation beforehand because they approved it afterwards. Now I put it to you that that doesn't follow. APLA approved the operation after you reported it to Power. I put it to you that APLA was not aware prior to this operation, that you were going to attack the restaurant or this particular restaurant. MR SHICEKA Do you expect an answer? MR WARNER Can you comment on that please? I'm putting it to you that APLA did not know before the attack took place, that you were going to attack a restaurant filled with civilians, is that true? MR SHICEKA You say APLA didn't knowledge prior. Let me explain this to you. If you are given an order and you are told what type of targets are to be attacked, and then what will happen thereafter, I won't say before an attack today, I won't tell people that I'm going to attack people before that could take place. What if that information will land to the wrong hands, will land to the enemies before the attack. APLA has given me a target. What I'm supposed to do is to execute the orders and report after the operation. They know very well everything about my whereabouts, they know very well that I'm involved in an operation. Even if I hid this or that, they know very well that the order was given but I can't tell people beforehand. I can't tell Mzala, what if Mzala has changed his mind and now he's collaborating with the enemy and we would be killed during the operation? That means that I'll never tell before the attack, I will never tell the people before the attack. MR WARNER Okay. So then do we have to understand it was within your authority to decide on what kind of target to hit? MR SHICEKA As I've already mentioned what type of targets were described to us, no matter what I do it has to fall under that category, I mustn't do my own thing. CHAIRPERSON I think there were general instructions and the commander of a unit then selects the target. The entire organisation of APLA doesn't select specific targets and say go and hit this target or the other, they are given general instructions and the commander then picks the target. That is how I understand the evidence to be. MR WARNER Can it then be said Sir, that the commander had a discretion in picking the target? CHAIRPERSON Obviously he selects the target. MR WARNER Thank you, thank you Sir. CHAIRPERSON That's how I understand his evidence. Mr Arendse, am I wrong? MR ARENDSE No, Mr Chairman, that's correct. MR WARNER I want to ask you also, this attack on the restaurant, is it not true that this was your first attack on a civilian or so-called soft target? Your attacks prior to that had all been on military installations, is that not correct? MR SHICEKA You see APLA was formed long ago in 1960 ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] your first soft target, not APLA. It's the first soft target in which you were involved, that's the question. MR SHICEKA That was my first attack. CHAIRPERSON That's the answer. MR WARNER Did you not therefore feel that you were entering unfamiliar territory? Did it not strike you as something you were not used to doing? CHAIRPERSON He's now got to express to you how he felt about it? Mr Warner, what is it that you're really after? MR WARNER I would like him to tell me whether or not he felt this was a different operation from his previous operations, or was it just the same as all of the rest. CHAIRPERSON Well the differences are so obvious, even to me. MR WARNER Sir, he made a comment earlier on that there was no difference whatsoever between a soft target and a military target. CHAIRPERSON No, what they mean is that they don't draw a distinction. MR WARNER What I'm trying to establish Sir, is that there is indeed a distinction there and that he must have been aware of that distinction. CHAIRPERSON No, no, they said that they don't draw a distinction. In other words, as far as APLA is concerned, they don't say: "We will only attack hard targets, military targets, we will not attack soft targets". They don't draw that distinction. They're not saying that there is no distinction, they don't draw that distinction. That is as I understand it. MR WARNER So can I understand that it follows from that, that as an APLA soldier, he himself did not feel that this was, there was any significance whatsoever in that this was his first soft target? Is that how we should understand it? CHAIRPERSON That there was no significance? MR WARNER No significance, it wasn't a moment for him, it wasn't a special time for him where he'd crossed over the line from soft targets, from hard targets to soft targets? CHAIRPERSON Listen carefully please. You attacked police stations, you attacked policemen at railway stations, with a view to getting their arms, that's one kind of activity. Now you are attacking a restaurant, not to get guns from the people but just to attack the people. In your mind, counsel wants to know, did you not have any difficulty in drawing a distinction that you're attacking unarmed people in a restaurant, as distinct from attacking policemen and soldiers? MR SHICEKA No. MR WARNER I put it to you finally that the target that you attacked was not a legitimate target, what is your comment? MR SHICEKA You say that was not a legitimate target, the one that we attacked? Is that what you are saying? MR WARNER That is correct yes, the restaurant. MR SHICEKA To me it was a legitimate target. MR WARNER Thank you Sir, I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WARNER CHAIRPERSON Have you any questions? MR MAPOMA Thank you Chairperson, no questions. NO QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA CHAIRPERSON Is there any re-examination Mr Arendse? RE-EXAMINATION BY MR ARENDSE Just one Mr Chairperson. In your written statement, Andile, you say in paragraph 6.1, just referring to your orders, in paragraph 6.1 you say the order was for you to come to Cape Town: "to carry out operations in which I was to attack members of the then racist South African Police, SANDF and other white people. The purpose was to take the war to white areas and steel by force weapons from the police and members of the Defence Force" Now in your written application on page 20 of the bundle you also say that comrade, and I'm referring to paragraph 11(b), there's a question: "If so, state particulars of such an order and the persons who gave you the order". You say: "Comrade Mzala issued the order to take the war to the white areas and to destroy the state machinery" Now, ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Sorry Mr Arendse, what page are you reading from? MR ARENDSE Page 20 of the bundle, paragraph 11(b). CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR ARENDSE Is that the same thing that you were saying in paragraph 6.1 of your written statement? MR SHICEKA Yes. MR ARENDSE Thank you, no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR ARENDSE CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you very much, you can stand down. WITNESS EXCUSED MR ARENDSE Chairperson, we've got no other witnesses, that is the case for the applicants. CHAIRPERSON Mr Arendse, do you know whether the people who were his companions have applied for amnesty, people whose names have been mentioned here? MR ARENDSE No, Chairperson, they definitely haven't applied for amnesty. CHAIRPERSON They haven't? MR ARENDSE They haven't. CHAIRPERSON Are you proposing to call any witnesses? MR WARNER No, Sir, I have no witnesses. MR MAPOMA No, Chairperson, no witnesses. CHAIRPERSON Where in Claremont is this restaurant, or is it no longer there? MR WARNER Sir, it is no longer there. Apparently the owner went bankrupt as a result of crippling medical expenses following the act. There is another restaurant in its place. This is on the corner of Landsdowne Road and Belvedere Road. I have a map if the Commission would like to have sight of such. CHAIRPERSON No, this is sufficient. And under what name was this restaurant at that time? MR WARNER It was called: "Stakes": S-T-A-K-E-S. CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you very much. Mr Arendse, will you address us now, or do you want a little time until tomorrow morning to do so? MR ARENDSE Can we have some time until tomorrow morning Chairperson? CHAIRPERSON Some time, meaning early in the morning? MR ARENDSE First thing in the morning. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR ARENDSE Yes. CHAIRPERSON Will you be available? If you propose to address us, you may do so now. MR WARNER I would prefer to do so also in the morning if I may Sir. CHAIRPERSON We'll adjourn the hearing until half past nine tomorrow morning. MR ARENDSE As you please Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS