amntrans AMNESTY HEARING 1998-09-29 PRETORIA 15 WYBRAND ANDREAS LODEWIKUS DU TOIT AM 5184/97 LONDON BOMB https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=52851&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1998/98090829_pre_2preto15.htm ON RESUMPTION WYBRAND ANDREAS LODEWIKUS DU TOIT (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR BOOYENS Thank you Chairperson. The witness will give his evidence in Afrikaans. Mr du Toit, you are applying for amnesty with regard to your involvement in what has generally been called here: The London Bomb, is that correct? MR DU TOIT Yes, that's correct. MR BOOYENS And your application appears on page 189 of bundle number 3 and further. MR DU TOIT That's correct. MR BOOYENS If we could just quickly study your application. Page 189, is there anything that you wish to add? MR DU TOIT Negative. MR BOOYENS Regarding paragraph 7(a), were you a supporter of any political party? Here it says "Not applicable" MR DU TOIT Yes, I was a supporter of the National Party. MR BOOYENS An ordinary member? MR DU TOIT Yes. MR BOOYENS On page 190 you sketch by beginning with your career in the police, is that correct? MR DU TOIT Yes. MR BOOYENS Is there anything that you wish to add? MR DU TOIT No. MR BOOYENS Page 191, you discuss your career history further. MR DU TOIT That's correct. MR BOOYENS Anything to add? MR DU TOIT No. MR BOOYENS 192, it's still the same? MR DU TOIT Yes, that's correct. MR BOOYENS 193, the same? MR DU TOIT Yes, that's correct. MR BOOYENS And 194 until the middle of the page, you discuss your career history and to a certain extent how the structure was composed, the structure in which you worked, is that correct? MR DU TOIT Yes. MR BOOYENS Do you confirm the correctness of what is stated here? MR DU TOIT Yes. MR BOOYENS Let's look at paragraph 9(a), 9(a)1. This application of yours, who compiled it? MR DU TOIT It was compiled by me. MR BOOYENS Did you have any assistance from legal representation? MR DU TOIT Without any assistance of legal representation. MR BOOYENS 9(a)1, the deed, omission or offence for which you are applying, do you request that it be added to this if there's any other offence or delict which may emanate from my involvement in this incident. MR DU TOIT That is correct. ADV DE JAGER But just insofar as it is covered by the facts which have been given here? MR BOOYENS Yes, absolutely Chairperson. The only reason why I'm adding this is because this was not compiled by a legal person and there may be certain complications, there could be certain contravention of an the Explosives Act, there could be a contravention of the Airline Law and so forth. Any other statutory implications which should be covered by this and not only the common offences which are listed here. Mr du Toit, if we can turn to page 195 where you sketch your involvement. You said in the early '80 years you received a request, just proceed from there and tell us how you remember this occurring. MR DU TOIT Upon a certain day I was approached by Major Craig Williamson. MR BOOYENS Directly or indirectly? MR DU TOIT Indirectly. I have a suspicion that Mr Raven was sent to me with the request. I've given three here but I've heard from other witnesses that there were only two metal containers. I was requested to manufacture two containers with fake surfaces and the purpose of that was to contain documentation, films or any other information which would be sent over the borders of the country from time to time. MR BOOYENS The fake surfaces of these containers, how were they supposed to look? MR DU TOIT Well no definite description was given to me, this was left to my own discretion, to make it look as if it was a electronic testing device and it did indeed appear as such. MR BOOYENS Are you speaking of buttons and switches and other such devices? MR DU TOIT Yes, that's correct. MR BOOYENS You then manufactured these containers? MR DU TOIT Yes, I did. MR BOOYENS How big were these containers as far as you can remember? You could indicate it to us or you could give us measurements, according to your recollection. MR DU TOIT I would say it was about 350 long, 100 high and 200 wide. MR BOOYENS This request which you received from Mr Williamson, possibly via Mr Raven, was there anything strange about this sort of request which was given to your Technical Division? MR DU TOIT No, not at all. That was a standard request which we would receive from time to time, to manufacture items or objects such as this. MR BOOYENS We know that you could not remember the date but we've heard that it was in 1982. MR DU TOIT That is correct. And what was your rank at that stage, can you remember? MR DU TOIT I would estimate that I was a Captain. The other members, all of us were approximately in the same time frame, so I'm assuming that I was a Captain. MR BOOYENS Can you tell me whether after you had manufactured these containers you determined what the content of the containers would be, what would be packed into these containers? MR DU TOIT Once again I was approached by Mr Raven. After that he showed me the content and I noticed that it was among others, Eastern Block explosives and there were also other forms of apparatus such as wires and a clock and other similar items which went along with it. MR BOOYENS When you refer to wires and such and explosives, as I understand it there had to have been silencers? MR DU TOIT Yes, there would have been switches, which would have been the normal practice. The explosives would be in the one container and the other equipment would be in the other container. MR BOOYENS And you also said it was rationed TNT. Mr Raven said that it was plastic explosives, how sure are you of the nature of the explosives? MR DU TOIT Well I can't dispute this with him, that is simply my recollection and I wasn't very experienced at that stage. So I don't think I'd be able to give a better expert opinion than Mr Raven. MR BOOYENS Did you then these items into the containers? MR DU TOIT I sealed it lightly into a plastic container and after that I placed it into the container and ensured that it could not shaken about in transit. MR BOOYENS Were the explosives placed separately from the other equipment? MR DU TOIT Yes. MR BOOYENS In order to minimalise any kind of risk? MR DU TOIT Yes, it would have been fatal to do it in any other way. MR BOOYENS What were these containers made of, was it metal, wood or what? MR DU TOIT It was made of sheet metal. MR BOOYENS When you saw that these items were used to pack explosives, what kind of inference did you draw? MR DU TOIT The first inference that I drew was that this would be used for an offensive action and secondly, that this would be used in a cross-border operation because of the great deal of trouble that went into the packing of these items. MR BOOYENS Was anything ever said to you about the express purpose behind these objects? MR DU TOIT No. MR BOOYENS So you just drew your inferences? MR DU TOIT Yes. MR BOOYENS Mr du Toit, at that stage, as it appears from your background, you had been connected with the Technical Division of the Security Branch for quite some time? MR DU TOIT Yes, that's correct. MR BOOYENS And your division, did you ever have anything to do with input or the determination of who or what would be targets? MR DU TOIT No, not at all. We were purely in a supportive capacity in order to assist the Security Branch. MR BOOYENS And these requests, we're just going to deal with this specific request which you received, this came from Mr Williamson, according to your knowledge. Did you have any reason to believe - let's just speak of confidence or trust, what was your trust situation with regard to your fellow members at the branch and in terms of the legitimacy of operations, however unlawful they may have been, but with regard to the authorisation that was given for these operations. MR DU TOIT During those days, and I believe that this was the spirit which ruled over a long period of time, there was a great deal of confidence among all security members, especially when a request such as this came from the security head. MR BOOYENS Let's discuss this specific incident. This came from Mr Williamson, and you knew him, is that correct? MR DU TOIT Yes, I knew him. MR BOOYENS And you knew that he was Head of Intelligence? MR DU TOIT Yes, I knew that. MR BOOYENS And did you at any stage think in any way that this would be applied in a different way or in a different situation other than the struggle that was taking place between the liberation movements on the one side and the South African Government on the other side? MR DU TOIT No, I had no reason to believe anything else. MR BOOYENS And did you ask any questions of Mr Raven or Mr Williamson regarding these objects or why they were going to be used? MR DU TOIT We didn't ask any questions. If you received information you kept it to yourself. But if it wasn't given to you then you didn't ask any questions. MR BOOYENS Later, did you draw any inferences at a later stage regarding the ultimate destination of these explosives or a component of these explosives which you packed? MR DU TOIT I simply thought that it was going to be applied for the chief purpose. MR BOOYENS And by that you're implying that this would be for an explosion at the ANC's offices? MR DU TOIT Yes, that's correct. MR BOOYENS Regarding your personal and political objectives, it could be rather broad, but regarding your personal objectives on page 197 of your application, do you confirm that which is declared there? MR DU TOIT Yes. MR BOOYENS Did you regard yourself as a technical person who was connected to the Security Branch and therefore part of the struggle? MR DU TOIT Yes, that's correct. MR BOOYENS In the same position as Denel's weapons manufacturing section or Armscor's weapons manufacturing section? MR DU TOIT Well not on such a high profile level but I felt that I also participated in the attempt or the effort to combat the revolutionary struggle. MR BOOYENS So then you confirm the rest of your application as well? MR DU TOIT Yes, that's correct. MR BOOYENS Until page 200? MR DU TOIT Yes, that's correct. MR BOOYENS Anything else which you wish to add? MR DU TOIT No. MR BOOYENS Thank you Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BOOYENS MR VISSER Visser on record Mr Chairman. No questions, thank you. NO QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR LEVINE Mr Chairman, Levine on record. Mr du Toit, I have one question. If you would turn to page 195 of your affidavit, the first paragraph. Do you have that? MR DU TOIT Yes, I have it. MR LEVINE You will see on the third line "Three metal containers" I think or I'd like to know whether it was three metal containers or two metal containers, according to your recollection? MR DU TOIT As I've reflected here my recollection is that it was three but I will agree that I could be mistaken because it is quite some time since this incident took place and I can't remember it all that clearly, so I can't really dispute it. MR LEVINE Thank you Mr Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR LEVINE MR DU PLESSIS Thank you Mr Chairman. I'm sorry that I wasn't here, there was something urgent that I had to deal with and which may mean that I may not be here this afternoon, Mr Chairman. I have not questions to Mr du Toit. NO QUESTIONS BY MR DU PLESSIS MR JANSEN Thank you Mr Chairman, Jansen on record. I have no questions, thank you. NO QUESTIONS BY MR JANSEN MR CORNELIUS Thank you Mr Chairman, Cornelius for the applicant, McPherson. I have not questions, thank you. NO QUESTIONS BY MR CORNELIUS MR HUGO Thank you Mr Chairman, Hugo no record. I have no questions. NO QUESTIONS BY MR HUGO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BIZOS I have a few questions Mr Chairman. What was your unit called, Mr du Toit? MR DU TOIT Chairperson, the unit was referred to as the Technical Division of the Security Branch. MR BIZOS Did you know Mr Reeve? MR DU TOIT Not, at all. MR BIZOS Or Mr Freeman? MR DU TOIT No, Chairperson. MR BIZOS Have you ever heard the initials: EMLC? MR DU TOIT Yes, I have heard that before. MR BIZOS Other than in this hearing. What does EMLC stand for? MR DU TOIT I don't know. I think somebody here did give an explanation of that, Electro Mechanic - he didn't really expand on it. MR BIZOS What do you know about this body? MR DU TOIT Not much, I simply knew that it was a unit of the army which served certain needs of Special Forces, but furthermore I can't say much about them. MR BIZOS I do not want to touch upon a matter in which you were otherwise involved, save in relation to a very limited thing. I don't want to jeopardise your application for amnesty in the Motherwell matter nor the appeal that is pending if your application is not successful. What I do want to ask you is, were you a bomb maker in 1982? MR DU TOIT Chairperson at that stage I was not yet a bomb manufacturer. MR BIZOS Did you have knowledge of explosives in 1982? MR DU TOIT Well during the second half of '82 I did. In the winter of 1982 I was trained. MR BIZOS Before or after the London bombing? MR DU TOIT I have an idea that it took place after that incident. I heard here that the London bomb incident took place in March 1982 and my training was completed somewhere in June. MR BIZOS Yes. Did you have anything to do with the making of the bomb at Motherwell? MR DU TOIT I was definitely involved in that. MR BIZOS How much explosives, what quantity of explosives did you use in Motherwell? MR DU TOIT My recollection is not very good regarding that but I estimate that it would have been approximately 4 to 6 kilograms. MR BIZOS And the amount of explosives that you packed into the two or three cases, how much was that? MR DU TOIT I heard here that it was four or six blocks but my recollection is that it was somewhat more, although I don't know whether or not my perception or my memory has been influenced by the fact that I read what the British bomb experts had estimated. However, my recollection was that is was somewhat more. MR BIZOS A bit more than Motherwell? MR DU TOIT No, no, a bit more than was testified here. MR BIZOS I see. Well in relation to the Motherwell, was it bigger or smaller, or if it did vary, by how much? MR DU TOIT It was definitely less. I would say that it was approximately the half of it. MR BIZOS Between two and a half and three kilograms? MR DU TOIT Two and a half kilograms? I could go along with that. MR BIZOS And you do recall do you that the quantity in Motherwell was established by experiments by the army to have been a minimum of four kilograms? MR DU TOIT I am aware of that. MR BIZOS Although the "dekstorie" was that is was an ANC "kleef bomb". MR DU TOIT Six demolition charge. MR BIZOS It was a limpet mine, an ANC limpet mine with approximately - how much does that have, very little? How much does a limpet that ... MR DU TOIT Approximately a kilogram, Chairperson. MR BIZOS Yes. ADV DE JAGER I beg your pardon, I didn't hear your answer. How much explosives does a limpet mine have? MR DU TOIT One kilogram. I'm speaking under correction but I would say that it's approximately a kilogram. MR BIZOS There are different sizes are there not and I think the smallest is about half a kilogram. MR DU TOIT That's correct. MR BIZOS And that was said was used there by the ANC to blow up your colleagues? MR DU TOIT Yes, but the real cover-up was that it was not only a limpet mine, that it was also an NZ6 demolition charge which was used in conjunction with this. MR BIZOS Thank you Mr Chairman, I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BIZOS CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR DU PLESSIS Mr Chairman, I have one question flowing from this. There was not evidence pertaining to the weight and if I may be allowed to ask one questions. Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr du Toit, you were not present when Mr Raven compiled the bomb? MR DU TOIT No, I was not present. MR DU PLESSIS So there is no basis upon which you could dispute that that which he used in the bomb was the mass which he described when he gave evidence? MR DU TOIT No. MR DU PLESSIS Thank you Mr Chairman, I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DU PLESSIS CHAIRPERSON Well, against that Mr du Plessis, didn't Mr Raven say he used all the explosives? MR DU PLESSIS I'm not 100% sure if he committed himself to that Mr Chairman, it may be. I was wondering about that myself. And if it becomes an issue it may be appropriate to take it up with him, but I don't think it is much of an issue, Mr Chairman. If you feel that it is important I will take it up with him. I think that was the gist of his evidence, I think so. MS PATEL Thank you Honourable Chairperson, I have not questions for this witness. NO QUESTIONS BY MS PATEL MR SIBANYONI I've got no questions, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Anyone else? MR BOOYENS No re-examination, thank you Mr Chairman. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR BOOYENS CHAIRPERSON Thank you. WITNESS EXCUSED