amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1998-09-10 PRETORIA https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=52855&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1998/98090829_pre_2pretor3.htm ON RESUMPTION: 10<SUP>TH</SUP> SEPTEMBER 1998 - DAY 3 CHAIRPERSON PETRUS JOHANNES COETZEE (s.u.o.) MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON MR BIZOS GEN COETZEE Thank you Mr Chairman. The position is Sir, when I used those words in my evidence in chief, I did not imply, nor do I want an inference to be made that I meant by that, that there was any improper relationship, either on a personal level or on a work level, between Mrs Ruth Slovo and myself. Thank you Sir. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BIZOS (continues) Yes. Perhaps General, you could explain what you meant by it, and you mentioned an incident to me - well, I actually know about it, so let me ask you the questions. GEN ERASMUS That is correct. MR BIZOS And you were the only one that Mr Vernon Berringer could not find fault with in his evidence, because you had the advantage of writing in shorthand what were the speeches were made in relation to the congress of the people? GEN COETZEE MR BIZOS Well not serious fault anyway. And this was a time in the preparatory examination where there were no less 156 accused. GEN COETZEE That is correct Sir. MR BIZOS GEN COETZEE That is correct. MR BIZOS GEN COETZEE No, I would say that it was much better than later on. MR BIZOS Much better than later on. And did you have chats with Ruth First during the adjournment, as you have here with members of the bar and the attorneys that are appearing against your side, so to speak? GEN COETZEE Yes, that is true. Mr Chairman, on very many occasions, and in addition to that, she occupied offices which just around the corner from the offices of the Security Branch. MR BIZOS GEN COETZEE That is correct. MR BIZOS GEN COETZEE No, because it was alleged that trotskiest orientated. MR BIZOS GEN COETZEE MR BIZOS ADV DE JAGER MR BIZOS Thank you Mr Chairman, may I proceed? GEN COETZEE MR BIZOS The most important enemy of the Security Police must have been Mr Joe Slovo, if not the most, certainly on top of the list. GEN COETZEE Yes, I would say he would have been an important enemy, if you want to use that term. MR BIZOS And important enemy. And if he was eliminated the purposes of the Security Police would have been well served. GEN COETZEE MR BIZOS Yes. If he disappeared from the scene, is that a euphemism for being killed, General? GEN COETZEE MR BIZOS Well how could he have disappeared, did you think he was likely to be persuaded to give up the struggle? How was he going to be, to disappear other than by being eliminated or killed or permanently removed from society or any other euphemism that was in common currency at the time? GEN COETZEE MR BIZOS GEN COETZEE I beg your pardon? MR BIZOS GEN COETZEE But in any ...[intervention] MR BIZOS Mr Slovo was not in the country. GEN COETZEE In any event Sir, he was recognised and identified by the Security Police and by other intelligence agencies as an important cog in the conspiracy against South Africa. In that sense, if he disappeared it would have been to our benefit. MR BIZOS And if he died it would have been to your benefit? GEN COETZEE Well naturally. MR BIZOS Yes. GEN COETZEE If he disappeared, that includes ...[intervention] MR BIZOS Why are you so reluctant to use the ugly word General? MR VISSER MR BIZOS May I proceed Mr Chairman? Why are you afraid to use the ugly word, General? GEN COETZEE MR BIZOS General, was not the main purpose of the 1981 operation against the Mozambican ANC base, the main purpose, the hope of actually killing Slovo and his top operatives in relation to whom you had information were in Maputo at the time, or outside Maputo at the time? GEN COETZEE I had no information at that stage, Mr Chairman, particularly that Mr Slovo might have been in Maputo at the time. MR BIZOS If anyone ...[intervention] GEN COETZEE Could I please just continue, Sir? MR BIZOS Yes. GEN COETZEE MR BIZOS GEN COETZEE MR BIZOS So that the killing of Joe Slovo, when in 1983, I beg your pardon, in 1981 there was this crossing of the border, was to kill Joe Slovo? GEN COETZEE MR BIZOS Outside Maputo, Matola. You were right in the first place. GEN COETZEE MR BIZOS Well what would have been a bigger prize, the biggest prize of all, for transgressing the borders - what would have been a greater prize than the killing of the Commander in Chief of Umkhonto weSizwe, Joe Slovo, the leader of the Communist Party or a leader of the Communist Party, what would have been a greater prize for those that organised the 1981 raid, General? GEN COETZEE The complete destruction of the whole logistical support system would have been of great value, Sir. MR BIZOS GEN COETZEE My thinking was Sir, that at that stage, at that stage, that he was a very important target, from which must not be inferred that I would select him individually for an attempted assassination. MR BIZOS Can we agree then that it would have been a big plus? GEN COETZEE Yes, Sir. MR BIZOS A big plus. CHAIRPERSON MR BIZOS The target was a facility at which it was common cause - this is 1981, in which 13 ANC members were killed, in which Africa, the first Defence Force Commanders crossed into Mozambique border and drove some 70 kilometres into Mozambique to a place called Matola: M-A-T-O-L-A, outside Maputo. They destroyed three houses, they killed 13 ANC guerrillas and a Portuguese citizen passing by. GEN COETZEE MR BIZOS GEN COETZEE MR BIZOS The Head of the Security Police knew nothing about 13 of the top ANC people that were killed in a neighbouring country, is that what your answer is? GEN COETZEE My answer is Sir, that at that stage I was not a member, 1981 I was not a member of the State Security Council. The information that the South African Police could have had, and we were mainly concerned with matters inside the country, could have had about that particular issue would have been given, through the structures, to the Secretariat of the State Security Council where the decision was taken. MR BIZOS Did you as Head of the Security Police, have an input in 1981 in relation to the attack of these three houses in Maputo, yes or no? GEN COETZEE MR BIZOS Please answer the question, General. GEN COETZEE MR BIZOS Not "they", the question related to you General. GEN COETZEE No, I cannot remember that I was requested particularly myself to give an input Sir. My personnel working with that type of matter, where for instance, for instance, statements were stored, information was collected, collated and stored, about the activities of the ANC in Maputo, obviously they would have been requested to give an input through the structures of the State Security Council. MR BIZOS With your knowledge or behind your back? GEN COETZEE No, Sir, they would probably have discussed it with me. MR BIZOS GEN COETZEE MR BIZOS GEN COETZEE MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON MR VISSER Mr Chairman yes, the basis just of what we find unacceptable, is that we are wondering further and further afield, away from what we are busy with, but if that is your ruling Mr Chairman, we accept it. MR BIZOS May I proceed Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON May I ask, are you saying you were never told that there had been this successful raid on an ANC base, I think we can call it, where 13 of the leading members of Umkhonto we Sizwe had been killed? GEN COETZEE MR BIZOS If an officer of your Security Police says that the main purpose of that raid was to get Slovo, would you be able to admit or deny it? GEN COETZEE MR BIZOS GEN COETZEE I must have been informed that there was a strike intended or envisaged by the South African Defence Force. My department must have been given an input. MR BIZOS You had ...[intervention] ADV DE JAGER GEN COETZEE My personnel must have been involved in the planning because they had knowledge of the type of target that was going to be attacked, Sir. ADV DE JAGER Did your personnel inform you that this base would be attacked? GEN COETZEE That is very likely so, that at a briefing in the morning when the different officers gave their briefing to me, that they would have said that, informed me. That is very likely, Sir. ADV DE JAGER GEN COETZEE That is quite correct, Sir. MR BIZOS S-A-N-H-E-D-R-I-N, is that correct? GEN COETZEE MR BIZOS Is that a biblical expression? I see. What does it mean? GEN COETZEE MR BIZOS What does that mean? GEN COETZEE It means a meeting. MR BIZOS It means a meeting? GEN COETZEE As far as I am ...[intervention] MR BIZOS Presumably where the truth would be told, if it comes from the Bible? GEN COETZEE There was a meeting every Monday morning as far as I remember, Sir. MR BIZOS We have established that, the question was, where the truth was expected to be told. GEN COETZEE Briefings were supposed to be given, to be furnished by the ...[intervention] MR BIZOS Where the truth was supposed to be told? CHAIRPERSON Mr Bizos, must you go on and on with this? MR BIZOS MR VISSER MR BIZOS At these meetingswhat was to be done and what was done was discussed? GEN COETZEE At these meetings Mr Chairman, which were also attended by representatives of National Intelligence, sometimes Foreign Affairs, the Prisons Department, by the Military Intelligence, briefings were furnished by the different desk officers of the Security Branch of what had occurred, usually occurred in the past week. That is briefings and the developments and the tendencies and forecasts and ...[intervention] MR BIZOS Planning? GEN COETZEE No, planning was ...[intervention] MR BIZOS Why not? GEN COETZEE Planning was done Sir, when I was with the Security Branch, at an ad hoc committee on which a member of the Security Police would serve. I believe after it became known as Trevits or something like that, after my departure, but in my time there was an ad hoc committee established if it was necessary to discuss or to plan for a particular target outside the country. MR BIZOS Are you suggesting that this operation was planned without your knowledge and consent and support? GEN COETZEE I would have been informed that this is envisaged, ...[intervention] MR BIZOS No, but you must have taken part in the planning General, because ...[intervention] GEN COETZEE Not me personally Sir. MR NEL GEN COETZEE MR BIZOS I can understand that in relation to logistical details General, what I am asking you is whether a decision to make such an attack would have been kept away from you or not? GEN COETZEE No, I would have been informed that it was done at the State Security Council or at Cabinet level, I would have been informed through my Minister. MR BIZOS And what about the people that actually were working on the details, would they keep the fact that this is what they were doing in your offices secret from you? GEN COETZEE No, not at all. MR BIZOS Now do you recall whether the South African Government, whenever it performed an extraterritorial attack, gave out a supposed justification for that attack? GEN COETZEE MR BIZOS What was the justification given for this attack in which 13 leading MK people were killed and where we are going to prove the main target was Mr Slovo? What was the justification? GEN COETZEE MR BIZOS GEN COETZEE MR BIZOS GEN COETZEE Ja. MR BIZOS GEN COETZEE MR BIZOS Yes. And a reason was given for that, and it was different to the first, that was in response to the Pretoria bomb, do you recall that? GEN COETZEE MR BIZOS Certain capacities of the ANC, yes. Whatever may have been intended, you recall that a jam factory was actually destroyed? GEN COETZEE Well that is what was alleged by the Maputo Government afterwards Sir. MR BIZOS GEN COETZEE MR BIZOS I merely for the purposes of a ...[intervention] GEN COETZEE MR BIZOS Logistical problems. Now let us get back to this. We suggest to you that it will be proved that Joe Slovo was, because of his position, was a target. Do you know ...[intervention] MR VISSER MR BIZOS CHAIRPERSON MR BIZOS Let me put it again, I was - the Ruth - the bomb that killed Ruth First, it would appear from the documents before the Committee that some of those responsible appear to vacillate as to whether the bomb was intended for Ruth First or Joe Slovo or both. GEN COETZEE MR BIZOS General, how many photographs in how many poses and in how many positions do you estimate were in the Security Police files of Mr Slovo? GEN COETZEE Very many Mr Chairman, but not in the files of soldiers or ...[intervention] MR BIZOS GEN COETZEE MR BIZOS Yes. Well the question that I would want to ask you is, if a request was made to send a letter bomb to Mr Slovo, would you have authorised it? GEN COETZEE MR BIZOS Why not? GEN COETZEE MR BIZOS GEN COETZEE Yes, Sir, quite so. MR BIZOS That would have been legitimate, killing 13 is in order but killing one is morally reprehensible? GEN COETZEE MR BIZOS You speak as if your were a conscientious objector General. GEN COETZEE MR BIZOS Destroying three houses and killing 13 people with the distinct possibility or probability, even on your own version, that Mr Joe Slovo was expected to be there, you thought was okay. GEN COETZEE Yes, Sir. MR BIZOS Yes. GEN COETZEE Oh, yes. MR BIZOS But if you were asked to authorise a letter-bomb to Mr Slovo, you would not have done it? GEN COETZEE Absolutely correct Sir. MR BIZOS Why? GEN COETZEE MR BIZOS If they came to you and said: "Put the proper procedures to the highest possible level, we want to send a bomb to kill Mr Slovo", would you have done it? GEN COETZEE What was discussed, and that is why I said in my presentation to the TRC, I regard three of these matters where I was in the State Security Council, I regard it as state sanctioned. MR BIZOS GEN COETZEE No, I disagree with that Sir. MR BIZOS Now, listen to the facts and perhaps you can explain them. Mr Joe Gwabe(?) in 1981 in Zimbabwe, Mr Z Mbale in 1982 in Lesotho, Mr Petrus Mzima in Swaziland in 1982, Ruth First, probably intended for Joe Slovo if we are to believe it, in 1982, the Schoons in 1984, and it continued thereafter, even beyond your term of office. Chief representatives of the ANC were marked for assassination. GEN COETZEE MR BIZOS Yes. GEN COETZEE MR BIZOS Yes. GEN COETZEE MR BIZOS Well if that was in fact done by the Security Forces, it must have been done behind your back? GEN COETZEE MR BIZOS Answer the question. CHAIRPERSON Can he be held responsible for everything done by the Security Forces? MR BIZOS No, no, no ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON You asked him about the Security Forces, not the Security Police. MR BIZOS No, I ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON He can accept responsibility for the Security Police, but the Security Forces ...[intervention] MR BIZOS I beg your pardon. I meant behind you - if it were done by members of the Security Police or with the participation of the Security Police, it was done behind your back? GEN COETZEE MR BIZOS GEN COETZEE Sir, I really do not think that the killing or the assassination of one person, however important that person is within the subversive organisations, as we termed it then, liberation movements, that the killing of one particular person who could be replaced quite easily, they had lots of support throughout the world and in South Africa, would really have been very useful. MR BIZOS The facts show that you as the Head of the Security Police and as the Commissioner were out of touch, if your evidence is true. You remember that there was a query yesterday as to how many people were killed by the Security Police or the Security Forces, do you recall that? GEN COETZEE I remember that you told me Sir, that the 84 people who during the period of my so-called stewardship were killed in South Africa, and there was some political connotation with those killings. MR BIZOS Yes. GEN COETZEE ADV DE JAGER GEN COETZEE MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON I take it that this will happen and also that we will be told how they were killed. Was it in a motor accident, was it in a letter bomb, was it an assassination, was it in a highjacking? MR BIZOS Mr Chairman, they were assassinations and they were done by the Security Forces and we ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Well, will there be evidence to this effect Mr Bizos, that is the question. MR BIZOS Yes, there will evidence to this effect and admissions Mr Chairman. ADV DE JAGER I think Mr Visser is asking whether you could perhaps distinguish between Security Forces and Security Police. MR BIZOS GEN COETZEE I want to respond about the Monday Morning meetings Sir, which is within my personal knowledge Sir. Never ever was there the assassination of any person discussed in my presence at a Monday morning meeting where I was the chairman, Sir. MR BIZOS So you say General. GEN COETZEE Ja. MR BIZOS Now Mr Chairman, I want to place on record information that I have obtained from three of my colleagues after the adjournment yesterday. My learned friend, Mr du Plessis, Mr Chairman, has informed me, and I say this, I use this method of putting the matter on record because the data base of the Commission apparently there is some difficulty with but for my purpose I will use this information that was given to me in the presence of my colleagues and put it on record. My learned friend, Mr du Plessis has appeared for police officers in which 37 people were killed for political reasons. My learned friend, Mr van der Merwe has informed me that he has appeared for police officers in which 15 people were killed for political purposes and who like the 37, these 15 have applied for amnesty. My learned friend, Mr Visser ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON So you say like the 37, these 15 have applied for amnesty? MR BIZOS No, no, the perpetrators of these deceased persons applied for amnesty, Mr Chairman. ADV DE JAGER MR BIZOS Mr Visser has informed me that he has represented members of the Security Forces who have applied for amnesty - I use the expression "Security Forces" because he has raised that matter, but I understood that they were primarily if not exclusively, police officers that he as acted for, in which 50 victims were murdered Mr Chairman, by the persons applying for amnesty for political reasons. MR VISSER MR DU PLESSIS Mr Chairman, may we perhaps just make our position clear? I gave Mr Bizos the figure yesterday just from recollection. We went and - I discussed it with my attorney yesterday evening and the figures look a little bit different Mr Bizos. We have appeared in amnesty applications where approximately 75 people have died. We have already appeared in those applications. MR VISSER Yes, Mr Chairman, my learned friend, Mr du Plessis is correct because I did place one aspect incorrectly before you and my attorney has just drawn my attention to it. My attorney makes a distinction in regard to matters in which applications for amnesty are made which flowed from confrontations or skirmishes as well. ADV DE JAGER MR VISSER Yes. ADV DE JAGER Could anybody inform me how many police were killed during those periods? MR VISSER Mr Chairman, we were going to deal with that in our re-examination or by way of further ...[intervention] ADV DE JAGER MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON Well in Volume 5, the submissions to the TRC by General van der Merwe, page 17, he sets out the police members killed MR VISSER MR DU PLESSIS Mr Chairman, we also have official figures, if you are interested, of people who were burnt in unrest incidents, people who were necklaced in unrest incidents over that period. ADV DE JAGER MR DU PLESSIS ADV DE JAGER MR BIZOS Mr Chairman, I find myself constrained to explain for the benefit of the Member of the Committee that raised the question of the number of police officers killed and for my learned friends who put figures before you. The purpose for which, which I thought was obvious and which I explained yesterday, and that is this Mr Chairman, that we have the Head of the Security Police in the witness box and who says that: "I did not know that any political assassinations took place". It is in order to test his credibility that I want those figures on record Mr Chairman. It may well be that many policemen were killed, many civilians were killed and every death is regrettable. There is however the question that we are concerned with here, is whether the General is telling the truth, that he remained ignorant of political assassinations. GEN COETZEE MR BIZOS Answer the questions as they come please. GEN COETZEE MR BIZOS Do you now say that you did know that political assassinations took place in South Africa? GEN COETZEE I said that it was obvious to everyone, not only to me Sir, that there were assassinations. MR BIZOS Right. GEN COETZEE If Mr Joe Gwabe was killed in Zimbabwe by whoever did it and he was assassinated, surely I would know about it. What I said specifically, two things I said Sir, I said three things, with great respect, the first is I must confine myself to during the period that I was in charge specifically of the Security Branch of the South African Police. That is the so-called or the assassinations which occurred then. That I, reasonably speaking I could have taken notice of. MR BIZOS GEN COETZEE MR BIZOS No, not that they had instructions, that they did it. GEN COETZEE MR BIZOS No, General, we will come to this twilight zone that and other senior police officers and politicians speak of. Deal with the question. Did you know or reasonably suspect that the purposes of these political assassinations served the South African Government and did you suspect that police officers or Security Force people were guilty of assassinating political activists? GEN COETZEE I did not suspect that, Sir. MR BIZOS Well ...[intervention] GEN COETZEE That the Security Police or the South African Police were involved in that, I did not suspect. MR BIZOS GEN COETZEE MR BIZOS We gave you the ones that you were in a particular capacity and probably there were many more as a result of the admissions made by my learned friends and many more as a result of the evidence given by, that has been given by Mr de Kock and others. Whose purposes was served by the political assassinations within and outside South Africa, other than the then South African Government? GEN COETZEE Let me say Mr Chairman, that Mr de Kock was never operational except as far as I know, the London bomb affair. He never served under me. I was already retired when ...[intervention] MR BIZOS GEN COETZEE MR BIZOS We gave you details yesterday - let me confine my question to the ones that you, that we put to you yesterday, during your stewardship of the Security Police and the South African Police. GEN COETZEE MR BIZOS Whose benefit - who benefited by those political assassinations that were committed during your period of office, other than the apartheid government? GEN COETZEE MR BIZOS Yes, your evidence comes ...[intervention] MR VISSER MR BIZOS Have you finished General? GEN COETZEE Yes, thank you Sir. MR BIZOS May I ask the next question? And I will try not to interrupt. Who had the strongest possible motive to kill, to assassinate the political activists in the ANC within and outside the country during your stewardship of the Security Police and the South African Police? GEN COETZEE Who had the strongest motive? MR BIZOS Yes. GEN COETZEE MR BIZOS Just name the person please or persons or organisation. Who had the strongest possible motive and who received the greatest political benefit, albeit misguided, during your stewardship? GEN COETZEE I would think that as far as the first portion of the question is concerned, the Security Forces. MR BIZOS Yes. GEN COETZEE I would think that they would think that their activities benefited the state, which at that stage was the National Party. I would think so. MR BIZOS Thank you for that answer General. What, in your capacity, what steps did you take as Head of the Security Police and as Commissioner of Police to investigate, determine, arrest and prosecute anyone in the Security Forces for a political, politically motivated reason of any ANC or other liberation movement figures, what steps did you take? GEN COETZEE MR BIZOS In the police station? GEN COETZEE In the police station, in the interrogation room Sir. MR BIZOS And the uniform barge were good enough ...[intervention] GEN COETZEE MR BIZOS GEN COETZEE Yes, the incident. MR BIZOS It happened in the police station and this uniformed police officer immediate, with his service pistol and immediately this was taken care of by the people running the police station? GEN COETZEE MR BIZOS At the Protea Police Station? GEN COETZEE At the Protea Police Station. MR BIZOS Yes. GEN COETZEE That was his version Sir. His version was that this man was standing on his knees before him, or something like that and grabbed hold of his service revolver and the result being that this detainee was shot through the head. That was his version initially when the matter was investigated. This policeman was convicted and I think sentenced to something like ten years in prison. What is more Sir, the officer commanding this station was retarded in his promotion because I said he did not properly supervise the men under his command. MR BIZOS Give us another case of a high-profile political activist and not a Soweto youth, that was being interrogated by a junior policeman. Give us a planned assassination which was investigated and anybody was brought to book, General. GEN COETZEE In South Africa, Sir? MR BIZOS Yes. GEN COETZEE During my Commissionership? MR BIZOS Yes. GEN COETZEE MR BIZOS GEN COETZEE MR BIZOS Well, ...[intervention] GEN COETZEE MR BIZOS You mentioned Ribeiro. The police or the Security Forces in fact defeated the ends of justice in GEN COETZEE Mr Chairman, what I said is that the CID, to the best of their ability, be that ability very poor, without any interference from my side, went along and they investigated, they took statements from ...[intervention] MR BIZOS GEN COETZEE MR BIZOS GEN COETZEE Yes. What I say Sir, that in this what was really in fact a 30 years war, if one wants to term it that way, in fact a 30 year war, people got killed, people got assassinated and obviously I would have known about it. MR BIZOS GEN COETZEE MR BIZOS GEN COETZEE Ja. MR BIZOS GEN COETZEE MR BIZOS Incompetence, right. GEN COETZEE Would a conspiracy, stretching from where to where do you suggest? MR BIZOS No, but you see during this period when these political assassinations took place, would you agree that there was disquiet within the country and that statements were made by people not connected with the ANC or the PAC or any other liberation movement, that the conclusion was inevitable that these assassinations were done by servants or agents of the state? Do you recall that these statements were made by responsible people? GEN COETZEE I recall such allegations Sir, that ...[intervention] MR BIZOS Statements, yes? GEN COETZEE Ja. MR BIZOS Within parliament from the few members of parliament that were in opposition? GEN COETZEE There were allegations of that nature Sir, that, over a broad spectrum Sir. MR BIZOS GEN COETZEE MR BIZOS No, no, were such statements made in Parliament? GEN COETZEE Yes. MR BIZOS Please listen to my questions. Were responsible newspapers regularly writing editorials saying that the conclusion is inevitable, that these political assassinations are committed either at the instance of the police or the police or Security Forces themselves, were there such editorials? GEN COETZEE I would be surprised Sir, if there were not such, at that stage, such editorials. MR BIZOS GEN COETZEE MR BIZOS Okay, right. So they were? GEN COETZEE Ja. MR BIZOS Yes. The persons, lawyers from international organised human rights organisations that came to the country to observe inquests for unnatural deaths, trained people who made public statements within and outside the country that the conclusion was inevitable, that these assassinations could not possibly have been done without the police turning a blind eye to them, were there such reports and statements? GEN COETZEE MR BIZOS GEN COETZEE MR BIZOS In the proceedings in the inquest, General. GEN COETZEE What proceedings at what inquest, Sir? MR BIZOS At the Biko inquest General. GEN COETZEE I was there as an observer Sir, I was not there as a participant, as a witness, except for the one small item which I referred to, I was not concerned in the whole Biko inquest at all Sir. MR BIZOS More relevantly, what did he say about the conduct of the police in relation to Mr Biko and Mr Goosen in particular? GEN COETZEE MR BIZOS I see. GEN COETZEE But I take it, with respect Sir, that yes, he may have made, submitted a report to some organisation, Amnesty International for instance or to the lawyers for the ...[intervention] MR BIZOS No, to the legal profession in the United Kingdom. GEN COETZEE MR BIZOS Now General, what is apparent we will submit, this dismal failure to hold anybody responsible for the political assassinations, particularly now that we know that your underlings were responsible for these assassinations. GEN COETZEE Well some of them. MR BIZOS Some of them? GEN COETZEE Ja. MR BIZOS The conclusion is inevitable, that any reasonable competent police officer would have brought to book these assassins during your period of stewardship. GEN COETZEE MR BIZOS Which case was that? GEN COETZEE MR BIZOS When was that? GEN COETZEE During my stewardship, Sir. MR BIZOS What year? GEN COETZEE I cannot remember the year. MR BIZOS GEN COETZEE All that I did Sir, was in cases like that where policemen were convicted after proper investigation. MR BIZOS Was this a planned assassination? GEN COETZEE MR BIZOS GEN COETZEE This was a political matter. MR VISSER MR BIZOS No Mr Chairman, I talked about planned assassination, but I will leave it at that. We have two cases from the General. Now General, I want to ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON MR BIZOS Well assassinations Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON MR BIZOS General, you were visited at half past five in the morning by Mr de Kock and his colleagues. GEN COETZEE MR BIZOS GEN COETZEE MR BIZOS GEN COETZEE No. MR BIZOS Very well. Why would you have said that General? GEN COETZEE Brigadier Schoon came to me, it was a house with guards, not all the policemen came into the house, some of them led by himself. He was the spokesman. He said to me, as far as I recollect: "We had a firefight with members of the ANC. We have got hold of all these documents, valuable documents on an intelligence level". There were two or three at that stage in the kitchen or in the backyard of the policeman and I congratulated them. MR BIZOS GEN COETZEE MR BIZOS Did you believe at any time that in a shoot-out with armed ANC people of an unspecified number and with an unspecified number of police officers confronting them that Mr de Kock alone had spilt blood in that incident? GEN COETZEE MR BIZOS The question was, did you believe as a result of the report made to you, that in a gunfight between a number of ANC armed guerrillas and a number of armed police officers that Mr de Kock alone had spilt blood? GEN COETZEE MR BIZOS No, answer the question General. GEN COETZEE MR BIZOS Let me read to you what Mr de Kock wrote and which you have not contradicted. "All the officers went into his house to report on what had happened" Well that may be you now contradicted slightly by saying not everybody came in, but be that as it may. GEN COETZEE That was present there. MR BIZOS Yes. GEN COETZEE With respect Sir, ...[intervention] MR BIZOS Let me finish to read to you and ask the question please. GEN COETZEE Alright. MR VISSER What page Mr Chairman? MR BIZOS 136. MR BIZOS Now if this is correct, and you have not challenged it up to now except that not everybody came in, you made a distinction between Mr de Kock and the others in relation to bloody hands, would you agree that that is so? GEN COETZEE MR BIZOS GEN COETZEE ADV DE JAGER How many people were killed in this shoot-out? MR BIZOS ADV DE JAGER Three? GEN COETZEE Three. MR BIZOS Yes. CHAIRPERSON Do you know who was at your house, how many policemen were there? GEN COETZEE CHAIRPERSON GEN COETZEE No, Sir. CHAIRPERSON But we ...[intervention] GEN COETZEE No, I know Brigadier Schoon was in the kitchen ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Schoon and Visser would have been there. GEN COETZEE Well, it seems that Visser ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Who took no part in the attack? GEN COETZEE Ja. CHAIRPERSON GEN COETZEE No, Mr Chairman, I am relying Mr Chairman, on the ordinary meaning of the English words when a number of people - let me get an answer to the question that I have asked first. ADV DE JAGER MR BIZOS No, I would have thought that if there is an attack and a counter attack, Mr Chairman, it would be highly improbable that anybody would know who had killed whom or whose bullet had killed whom. I am actually, Mr Chairman, dealing with a premature, contrary interpretation to the meaning of the ordinary English words that have been admitted to have been uttered by the witness. May I proceed on that basis? ADV DE JAGER I presume he was speaking in Afrikaans at the time? MR BIZOS Well I assume Mr Chairman, that he was speaking in Afrikaans. I have not heard the General say that the translation of the Afrikaans words that were used were incorrectly translated Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON MR BIZOS I beg your pardon? CHAIRPERSON It was Mr de Kock who killed the three people? MR BIZOS No, not all three Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON If you look at the top of the page "I used a silenced weapon and was the first person to shoot, killing two men and a woman, including Sipho Dlamini and Vusi Majola" On the previous page, at the bottom of page 135 he says: "Three people were killed in the attack. Another person, Panzu was shot but three people were killed" They were all killed by de Kock. MR BIZOS Mr de Kock says that this was a planned assassination, is he correct or incorrect in that? GEN COETZEE MR BIZOS GEN COETZEE MR BIZOS Are you saying that you were told that it was a shoot-out and not a planned assassination? GEN COETZEE MR BIZOS GEN COETZEE No, Sir. MR BIZOS Did you know what was his capacity? GEN COETZEE No, I was completely unaware. When I left the Security Branch which was directly concerned with Vlakplaas, there was a Lieutenant Colonel Coetzee, not Captain Coetzee, a Lieutenant Colonel Coetzee at Vlakplaas and that was the last time that I ever visited Vlakplaas. During my Commissionership I never visited there. MR BIZOS What were they doing in Swaziland? - since you compare it with what happened in Soweto. GEN COETZEE MR BIZOS Mr de Kock writes that it was in Swaziland, have you any reason to suspect the correctness of that information? GEN COETZEE MR BIZOS Mr de Kock says that it was in Swaziland, have you any reason to doubt the correctness of that information? GEN COETZEE MR BIZOS What were they doing in Swaziland? GEN COETZEE Oh, they were - with the permission of the Swaziland Police, the South African Police were operating in Swaziland at the time Sir. MR BIZOS And did they have carte blanche to assassinate people? GEN COETZEE No, not at all Sir. MR BIZOS And did you - was it ever raised with you that South African Police officers crossed the border into Swaziland from time to time and assassinated people? GEN COETZEE Yes, I was summoned there, not only by the King but also by police officers. I had very many discussion with them. I gave them equipment. They asked for assistance and I did that, but the co-operation continued Sir, until as Commissioner I attended as an official visitor, the coronation of the present King, Sir. MR BIZOS GEN COETZEE MR BIZOS Who was that person? GEN COETZEE I think his name was either Mr Ebrahim or Mr Pillay, as far as my recollection goes. MR BIZOS GEN COETZEE MR BIZOS Yes, that was probably Mr Gonile. GEN COETZEE Mr? MR BIZOS Gonile. GEN COETZEE Gonile? MR BIZOS Yes. MR JANSEN Sorry, Mr Chairman, that was on the 19th of February. It was Mr Joe Pillay. GEN COETZEE Mr Joe Pillay, yes. MR BIZOS Mr Joe Pillay. GEN COETZEE Ja. MR BIZOS GEN COETZEE MR BIZOS How the accused came before the court? GEN COETZEE MR BIZOS The Appellate Division in the Ebrahim case said that that was completely wrong. GEN COETZEE MR BIZOS Yes, but this is true. This may be that when the Appellate Division held that, but Mr Ebrahim Ebrahim was abducted in Swaziland, brought before the court by a police officer in the Security Police who said to the Supreme Court of South Africa, Transvaal Provincial Division, that he did not know how Mr Ebrahim landed up in his office. Is that something that is new to you? GEN COETZEE MR BIZOS GEN COETZEE MR BIZOS GEN COETZEE I know it from my studies of law, this case. MR BIZOS Yes, okay. Well then you can easily find out. But what I want to say to you is that assassinations and abductions into Swaziland were regularly performed and that you in your capacity, one capacity or another turned a blind eye to it if it did not in fact take place with your concurrence. GEN COETZEE No, Sir, this is not the position. The position was Sir, that there was a very, very good intimate working relation between the Swazi Police and the South African Police. And he came back Sir, after a while with a map drawn up between him and the Swazi authorities, Swazi Police, and which it was suggested that the Swazi Police were unable to police certain border areas of their country and they said they thought they were going to ask that government to ask the South African Police to police those particular areas. That was the type of situation and ...[indistinct] that had evolved Sir, over the years. ADV DE JAGER Well General, I know you may feel inclined to give long answers on long questions and that kind of thing, but kindly see whether you could restrict your answers to the very essence of the questions and the facts before you. GEN COETZEE Thank you Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS General, whose ...[intervention] MR VISSER Mr Chairman, Visser on record again. I just want to give my learned friend the opportunity. We were give to understand that the drift of the questions regarding abductions from Swaziland was that it was the police who abducted these people, for example Ebrahim. I just want to give him the opportunity of telling me whether that impression is correct or whether he meant something else. MR BIZOS General, through what diplomatic authority did you, a Security Policeman or a Commissioner of Police go to His Majesty the King of Swaziland? GEN COETZEE He summoned me Sir. MR BIZOS He summoned you? GEN COETZEE Ja. I was told by the Commissioner of Police there that is His Majesty wanted to see me. I had on other occasions seen the Minister of Police, the Minister of Foreign Affairs and other officials Sir, but on that occasion, that particular occasion I was told that His Majesty wanted to speak to me. MR BIZOS Did you clear it with the Foreign Affairs Department in the country? GEN COETZEE Yes, on some of these occasions they were ...[intervention] MR BIZOS This particular occasion. GEN COETZEE MR BIZOS CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] MR BIZOS Oh, I beg your pardon, I misread the seconds dials on my watch which was on 12 at the time. GEN COETZEE Ja. MR BIZOS Now I am going to put to you that that is a fiction that has been created by the Security Forces in order to avoid the responsibility of the Generals and politicians, what do you say to that? GEN COETZEE In order to avoid the? MR BIZOS The responsibility for the assassinations and other human rights violations that took place in the country, that it was been deliberately worked out as a lie in order to protect the Generals and the politicians. GEN COETZEE MR BIZOS What did you ever say to Mr Williamson that might have given him the impression that he was at liberty to arrange a postal bomb for Ruth First and Jeanette Schoon and their daughter? GEN COETZEE MR BIZOS So you ...[intervention] GEN COETZEE MR BIZOS Nothing at all? GEN COETZEE No. MR BIZOS GEN COETZEE MR BIZOS No, no, no, answer the question please General. GEN COETZEE Must have impacted on all of us ...[intervention] MR BIZOS General, answer the question please. Shall I repeat it? Did you either publicly or privately say anything to Mr Williamson that gave him the notion or the idea that had authority for you or persons above you to kill Ruth First and the Schoons? What is the answer, either yes, or no? GEN COETZEE No. MR BIZOS No. Thank you. Now was there or were there lecture notes, books, lectures given, internal memoranda, in relation to the total onslaught, the war situation? Do you know of any direct statement in any of them that junior officers were entitled to take their own decisions in regard to assassinations? GEN COETZEE Mr Chairman, there was a library at Security Branch headquarters dealing with counterinsurgency methods and techniques, low intensity war technics and techniques by various authors, dealing with that type of situation and that type of development or occurrence in the world over a very, very, broad spectrum. MR BIZOS CHAIRPERSON GEN COETZEE No instructions, either verbal Sir, or ...[indistinct] CHAIRPERSON Right, shall we take the adjournment at this stage? MR BIZOS Thank you Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Gentlemen, how soon - I know Mr Bizos has problems but we say tentatively a quarter to two, if we can be back here. MR BIZOS Yes, we can. CHAIRPERSON MR BIZOS There was an improvement in the situation yesterday ...[indistinct] CHAIRPERSON Right, quarter to two gentlemen. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION GEN P J COETZEE (s.u.o.) MR BIZOS Are we now ready? CHAIRPERSON Right. MR BIZOS GEN COETZEE MR BIZOS Some of the them. Yes, we can accept that. The Security Police in particular, was the gravamen of the question, were proud of the fact that they, and they held themselves out as a disciplined force. GEN COETZEE MR BIZOS The answer is yes? GEN COETZEE Security policemen or many of them would in evidence have said that. MR BIZOS Yes. And you would have expected them, as the Head of the Security Police, to be a disciplined force? GEN COETZEE MR BIZOS And to have been aware of your view that no unauthorised actions, no irregularities, would be overlooked by you, that you would see to it that they were apprehended and punished if anything unlawful was done? GEN COETZEE Yes, that would perhaps be describing Sir, the prefect situation. MR BIZOS Yes. GEN COETZEE MR BIZOS Yes, but that was your standpoint. You were throughout your stewardship as Security Police Head and as Commissioner, completely clean. You would not commit any unlawful act, you would not permit any unlawful act, you would not condone any unlawful act? GEN COETZEE MR BIZOS GEN COETZEE Yes, Sir, this was my attitude. MR BIZOS And this was obviously well-known to all the police officers in the Security Police, particularly in the Security Police Headquarters. GEN COETZEE MR BIZOS GEN COETZEE Yes, Sir. MR BIZOS GEN COETZEE MR BIZOS No, obviously not, nobody expects you to do that, General. Now, we can then take it that is was quite clear as far as you were concerned, you as Head of the Security Police in 1982 and 984 as Commissioner, that as far as you were concerned no illegal or improper acts were to be committed? GEN COETZEE That is correct Sir. MR BIZOS And that was crystal clear to him? GEN COETZEE Well my views were known Sir. MR BIZOS GEN COETZEE He had worked under me on assignments. I was his desk officer for quite a number of years. And may I add Sir, during that period there was no indication that what we did was illegal or unauthorised. MR BIZOS At that time, yes. GEN COETZEE Ja. MR BIZOS GEN COETZEE MR BIZOS Let me redefine it. To perform any illegal or highly improper act. GEN COETZEE MR BIZOS And he heard nothing to the contrary at any time from you? GEN COETZEE MR BIZOS GEN COETZEE He, Sir, had no authority from me, what he thought he must explain. MR BIZOS GEN COETZEE Is that an Army General, Sir? MR BIZOS Yes. But you know he was the guru of counterrevolutionary warfare. GEN COETZEE He was prominent in lectures when I was a young police officer. MR BIZOS GEN COETZEE No, Sir, many influences from many authors and from many people and many instances inspired the ...[intervention] MR BIZOS Including Frazer. GEN COETZEE Including Frazer. MR BIZOS GEN COETZEE MR BIZOS From General Frazer? GEN COETZEE No, not from General Frazer. MR BIZOS Oh, from others? GEN COETZEE Ja, ja. MR BIZOS But General Frazer says: "Because terrorism by the state can be so counterproductive and so abused. When the state goes over to terrorism every act has to be authorised at the top". Do you know that or do you remember that? GEN COETZEE MR BIZOS Well then ...[intervention] GEN COETZEE MR BIZOS GEN COETZEE No. MR BIZOS Well did you hear that it had to be controlled, if the state became a terrorist state, its terrorist acts had to be controlled from the top? GEN COETZEE MR BIZOS GEN COETZEE MR BIZOS Well you must have been singularly ill-informed, having regard to what your juniors have told us they had heard at lectures and at other places, General. How is it that this important qualification that Brigadier Frazer makes was never heard by you? GEN COETZEE These different points of view were held by different persons, how it should be done. I was one at the Rabie Commission who described to the latter view. MR BIZOS Do you think what you have said answered the question, how come that you were unaware of this important qualification by Brigadier Frazer, that if you go over to terrorism it has to be controlled and it has to controlled by the top? GEN COETZEE MR BIZOS Right. GEN COETZEE MR BIZOS Yes, but just one moment ...[intervention] MR VISSER MR BIZOS MR VISSER Well, may I ...[intervention] ADV DE JAGER MR BIZOS Yes, well I have only had one matter before you Sir, but in other matters this was. But we will make it available Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON MR BIZOS MR VISSER Mr Chairman, I may just enlighten you in that regard. The Frazer book was part of the discussion or investigations which formed part of the Durban State Security Council Meeting of the Human Rights Violations Committee. MR BIZOS MR DU PLESSIS MR BIZOS In that case, but it was in others. Mr Chairman, need we take up any more time, we have given an undertaking that we will make this page available and my learned friend will access to it. You did know I think, General Janse van Rensburg of the Secretariat of the Security Council GEN COETZEE MR BIZOS No, surely you knew you knew him. GEN COETZEE Was he a ...[indistinct] officer? MR BIZOS He was a General in the Army but he was on the Secretariat of the Security Council in 1985 whilst you were Commissioner. He was the Chief Secretary of the Secretariat of the Council that you were on. Do you say that you never met him, that you never heard of him? GEN COETZEE MR BIZOS Alright. GEN COETZEE I may have met him, he may have been on the Secretariat which was housed in another building, both in Cape Town and in Pretoria. MR BIZOS In Pretoria. He was in Pretoria. GEN COETZEE Well he was not housed in Police Headquarters. MR BIZOS No, no. GEN COETZEE MR BIZOS Would the Secretary of the Secretariat of the Security Council have known who was to authorise killings? GEN COETZEE If there was such authorisation, yes, I would think so. MR BIZOS And what he - the evidence that he gave before his Lordship, Mr Justice Zietsman when it was suggested to him that the request for an execution warrant for Goniwe and others addressed to him, his answer was: "Then it was sent to the wrong address". Flabbergasted we asked the obvious question: "Where should he have sent it to"?, and his answer was: "To the Head of the Army". Will you accept that as a correct statement of what this General gave in evidence? GEN COETZEE MR BIZOS No, accept it for the purposes of my next question. GEN COETZEE Yes. MR BIZOS Accept it for that. In 1982, would you have been considered as the Head of the Security Police/ GEN COETZEE Yes, Sir. MR BIZOS In and 1984, would you be considered the Head of the Police? GEN COETZEE That is correct, Sir. MR BIZOS If Frazer read together with the evidence under oath by General van Rensburg is true, and if the advice of Frazer was taken by the South African state in committing acts of terrorism, would you agree that you would have been the Head to be asked? ADV DE JAGER MR BIZOS Yes, because the person who sent it Mr Chairman, was a Brigadier in the Army. Perhaps I should have made that clear. ADV DE JAGER Oh. MR BIZOS MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON MR BIZOS But Mr Chairman, it was justified on the basis that Frazer was what I described as, the witness described as an authority and that is an authority on which the Security Forces rely, and by analogy...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON MR BIZOS CHAIRPERSON General van Rensburg was trying to give a clever answer: "It was sent to the wrong address". MR BIZOS Yes. CHAIRPERSON MR BIZOS No, except that he then identified the person that it should have been sent to. CHAIRPERSON Yes, that what he thinks. MR BIZOS Yes. GEN COETZEE He was no the Secretariat Sir. MR BIZOS Yes. Very well, I will leave it at that for the purposes of argument, General. I am going to suggest to you that these, all these actions, not only in relation to the two bombs but the others, were in fact authorised from the top but there is a conspiracy of silence among the Generals and the politicians in order to save themselves and to allow the, what are usually called: "the foot soldiers" to be the brunt of it. GEN COETZEE MR BIZOS Yes. Before returning to this subject and the letter that I have been asking for, there are a couple of matters that I want to deal with on the facts of the case General. Were you surprised that the people came to your house at five thirty in the morning, a large group of them? GEN COETZEE MR BIZOS Did you ask them why they took the trouble to wake you up at half past five in the morning? GEN COETZEE No, Sir. MR BIZOS Why not? GEN COETZEE MR BIZOS Well let me put specifically what the evidence of Mr de Kock is going to be in relation to this matter, an instruction which he gave me when he heard your answers of an innocent explanation for what he said in his book. That Colonel Tiekie de Jager and Brigadier Coetzee came in, you asked for no explanation when they came in, you did not express any surprise why they came in so early in the morning, you said nothing but asked: "Did you get what you wanted to"? Is that evidence correct or incorrect? GEN COETZEE No, I cannot remember that, and particularly, the person that came to me was Brigadier Schoon or he was with the group and he reported to me. MR BIZOS GEN COETZEE No, I cannot comment on it Sir, because I do not remember the conversation ...[intervention] MR BIZOS GEN COETZEE As far as I am concerned I greeted them and a report was given by Colonel Schoon, or the then Colonel Schoon, and he had a lot of documents with him which he placed on the table. MR BIZOS I.G. GEN COETZEE I.G.? MR BIZOS GEN COETZEE MR BIZOS Mr de Kock is going to say to the Committee that this gave him a clear impression that you, General Coetzee, looked or appeared that you knew beforehand where they had gone to. GEN COETZEE MR BIZOS Well, if his evidence is correct then the Committee will make an ...[inaudible]. That you looked particularly pleased and excited about the finding and that it appeared that that was what you expected them to bring. GEN COETZEE Sir, this seems to be a description by another person about what the position was then. I have said Sir, that when the report was made to me I congratulated them. When they said they had been in a firefight with a group of ANC terrorists, prominent ANC terrorists who had been killed, and they have been able to get hold of all these documents which they displayed to me, I was pleased, yes. MR BIZOS Yes. He will also say that the fact that you did not ask any questions as to why you were there ...[intervention] GEN COETZEE Why I was there? MR BIZOS Why they. GEN COETZEE But they told me Sir. MR BIZOS No, no, no, why they came to your house. Just listen to me please. "He did not question us as to why we were there", is that correct or not? GEN COETZEE MR BIZOS And that from your behaviour he got a distinct impression that they were expected by you. GEN COETZEE MR BIZOS Having regard to the fact that they were on an assassination mission maybe they were unable to make a precise time or an appointment with you General, but let us go on. GEN COETZEE They could have phoned me Sir. MR BIZOS GEN COETZEE MR BIZOS And because you did not ask them who had authorised this operation, where did this information come from or any other pertinent information that a surprised Commissioner may have wanted, he came to the distinct conclusion that you had authorised the action and that you knew what they had done. GEN COETZEE That is pure speculation Sir. MR BIZOS GEN COETZEE And I said it is possible Sir, it is possible that they could have said de Kock played a prominent part or he was the man that was the bravest of the lot. In which case I would not have been surprised Sir, because he had a very good reputation from fighting in South West Africa. MR BIZOS CHAIRPERSON Say that name again. MR BIZOS You were then either the Chief of the Security Police or the Commissioner of Police. Do you know anything about that death or the death of McFadden? GEN COETZEE No, Sir. MR BIZOS None at all, you never heard of it? GEN COETZEE MR BIZOS At that stage. GEN COETZEE At this stage here today the names mean nothing to me. MR BIZOS Yes. Approximately seven or eight months after those two killings, the members that killed them, members of the police were again decorated by the police with the same high decorations as were issued with, were issued for the London Bomb. GEN COETZEE MR BIZOS Again if this be the case, would there be a similar document in the police files about this decoration? GEN COETZEE Yes, every decoration Sir, every decoration that authorised there must be some record of it in Police Force orders. MR BIZOS Yes. I was going to ask you to get it but I think that we better apply elsewhere. Now again, if these decorations were given for these two murders somebody had to report what these decorations were for. GEN COETZEE Every decoration has got to be motivated ...[intervention] MR BIZOS GEN COETZEE Every decoration, including those two. I can ...[intervention] MR BIZOS The answer is: "Yes"? GEN COETZEE Yes, has to be motivated. MR BIZOS Right. GEN COETZEE I cannot Sir, comment on it unless I see the motivation, because you suggest Sir, to me that the motivation for those decorations were explicit, it was for assassinations in Swaziland. MR BIZOS GEN COETZEE Oh. MR BIZOS GEN COETZEE Yes, Sir. MR BIZOS At that time you were either Chief of the Security Police or Commissioner of Police. GEN COETZEE If it was eight months after 1983 when you suppose Sir ...[intervention] MR BIZOS GEN COETZEE MR BIZOS Commissioner of Police? GEN COETZEE Yes. MR BIZOS GEN COETZEE Yes, Sir, I would have signed the force order announcing to the police that these members are entitled to this medal. MR BIZOS Without enquiring as to what they did? GEN COETZEE It would have been specified in the citation Sir, it would have been specified in the citation. ADV DE JAGER GEN COETZEE Ja. ADV DE JAGER Then there should be a motivation. GEN COETZEE Which goes to the medal section. ADV DE JAGER Ja. The other stage is after the medal has been awarded. GEN COETZEE: Ja. ADV DE JAGER And Exhibit F deals with the position after the medal has been awarded. GEN COETZEE That is correct Sir. So that all that I have then to handle Sir, is a concept force order which I must sign together with the motivations if the medals are with me then, depending upon who has got to present these medals but the citation comes to me. MR BIZOS Who would have decided whether these persons that had killed these two person deserved to be awarded these medals? GEN COETZEE Their commander. MR BIZOS Their commander? GEN COETZEE Ja. MR BIZOS Who would their commander have been at the time? GEN COETZEE In 1983, depending upon the date Mr Chairman, it was quite likely that it was General Steenkamp. MR BIZOS General Steenkamp. GEN COETZEE Ja. CHAIRPERSON MR BIZOS Yes, yes, thank you. CHAIRPERSON MR BIZOS Yes, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Where he says "The orders came from Brigadier Schoon and General Steenkamp" MR BIZOS CHAIRPERSON Page 109. MR BIZOS Thank you Mr Chairman. Now would the General have recommended it if the truth was told to him? GEN COETZEE MR BIZOS Where is that General now? GEN COETZEE MR BIZOS Yes. I want to turn to the other matter and that is the application for amnesty of Mr McPherson. Now you have already denied that Mr McPherson is speaking the truth when he says that you authorised the bomb intended for Joe Slovo in Lusaka. GEN COETZEE MR BIZOS In relation to the authorisation of the bomb or the authorisation of the payment of the R15 000? GEN COETZEE As far as I read in the application, it only refers to me as far as the money matter is concerned. MR BIZOS GEN COETZEE MR BIZOS Let me read it to you. GEN COETZEE MR BIZOS Yes. "Captain Kobus Pretorius and I approached General Johan Coetzee in his office and said that Captain Pretorius had an Indian source called Allie that had direct access to the ANC offices in Lusaka. He was prepared to take a bomb built into a briefcase and leave it on the premises of the ANC. General Coetzee gave permission that we could proceed with the project". GEN COETZEE MR BIZOS GEN COETZEE MR BIZOS There were not specified procedures for sending out bombs were there? MR VISSER MR BIZOS Please carry on. GEN COETZEE MR BIZOS Yes. GEN COETZEE MR BIZOS GEN COETZEE I say it runs ...[intervention] MR VISSER MR BIZOS Yes. GEN COETZEE MR BIZOS GEN COETZEE MR BIZOS Yes? GEN COETZEE MR BIZOS GEN COETZEE Ja. This Indian guy ...[intervention] MR BIZOS Allie. GEN COETZEE Thirdly Sir, I see they say here that they went to the Army, to Special Forces to have this bomb made, whereas they had an expert there as we all know. MR BIZOS GEN COETZEE MR BIZOS Was there a set procedure for how you went about to bomb ANC premises or bomb - I would appeal to my learned friend if he has an objection to make it but not to make disconcerting noises and body movements which are calculated to interrupt the flow of my questioning Mr Chairman. MR VISSER MR BIZOS General, the placing of bombs is a most unusual police procedure, it would have been a most unusual event and you would not have expect police procedures to be followed? GEN COETZEE And I would not have expected police procedures? MR BIZOS You would not have expected ordinary police procedures to be respected for preparing and placing bombs in neighbouring countries in order to kill people? GEN COETZEE MR BIZOS Yes. GEN COETZEE I say that the procedures followed here, the fact that they must have known that there were experts, explosion experts in the building, members of the police force, because it seems to me Sir that some people knew it. I knew there were explosives experts with a certain job, with a certain job that they had to do which I knew about. I visited them from time to time. There was no set procedure to place, to prepare and place bombs in ANC targets. MR BIZOS A simple: "No" would have done, would have been sufficient, thank you General. Now a person in, or persons in this position like Mr McPherson, on his version, had to load a bomb in a motorcar and travel to Swaziland, a dangerous undertaking. You nod, is the answer: "Yes"? GEN COETZEE Yes, Sir. MR BIZOS He may for some reason or other have been stopped along the way. GEN COETZEE That is correct Sir. MR BIZOS He may have been able to talk his way out of it by police cards and other things but he may not. GEN COETZEE MR BIZOS He may have been stopped at the Swaziland border. GEN COETZEE Yes. MR BIZOS Because despite the friendly relations there might have been an ANC sympathiser at the gate. GEN COETZEE MR BIZOS GEN COETZEE MR BIZOS All possibilities. All possibilities that must have gone through the mind of a security policeman of the rank of Mr McPherson who was then a Major, also a possibility? GEN COETZEE Yes, Sir. MR BIZOS Yes. GEN COETZEE It depends upon what his arrangements were and that is why I say it was out of the ordinary. MR BIZOS GEN COETZEE If Sir, if that went through his mind then surely he would have had the mindset or the idea: I would have support from the Commissioner of the South African Police? If it is true ...[intervention] MR BIZOS Might not that have been the reason ...[intervention] GEN COETZEE But I must still say Sir, that Mr McPherson and I had worked together for quite a while on some projects in the Security Branch. Perhaps, perhaps Sir, there is a slight, a very slight possibility but not as he described it because his mind can also be at fault about certain of these aspects. And that he did come to me and that he did say something to me and that he asked for instance, and this is what I said Sir :"Would the money be forthcoming, would a reward be forthcoming" because that was really my function. MR BIZOS GEN COETZEE MR BIZOS You conceded earlier when counsel for Mr McPherson was examining you, that you did or probably did give the R15 000, authorised it. MR VISSER MR BIZOS GEN COETZEE As far as I remember Sir ...[intervention] MR BIZOS No, please Mr Chairman, ...[intervention] MR VISSER MR CORNELIUS I recall that as well. MR BIZOS Well it may be that but my recollection was in addition at the time that counsel for ...[intervention] ADV DE JAGER MR BIZOS CHAIRPERSON He went on later of the same aspect to say: "If the application had been made through proper channels" he would have authorised it. MR BIZOS He would have authorised it, thank you Mr Chairman. Now I am going to put to you General that what Major McPherson says is correct and that you authorised in furtherance of this policy of eliminating ANC people in the neighbouring countries, you specifically authorised the Zambia bomb, you specifically authorised the payment of R20 000 and you shortchanged a man for his partial failure but that the bomb was really for Mr Joe Slovo. GEN COETZEE No, Mr Chairman, it is not so. MR BIZOS Now do you accept the correctness of this evidence to the extent that security policemen, through Swaziland, through Allie, placed a bomb at the ANC headquarters in Zambia? GEN COETZEE MR BIZOS You do not accept it, alright. Again why should Mr McPherson have undertaken this very dangerous operation if he was not authorised from the top? GEN COETZEE Sir, he was under the command of a particular commander who would have, he would have discussed it with him, they would have drawn up a proper plan, they would have then requested with a motivation to me, the authorisation of certain funds. MR BIZOS The R20 000? GEN COETZEE MR BIZOS GEN COETZEE MR BIZOS Yes, well the Commission has been trying to find Captain Pretorius and nobody can. GEN COETZEE MR BIZOS You pose a question and I have this information and I give it to you but you can make ...[intervention] GEN COETZEE Well then perhaps ...[intervention] MR BIZOS Perhaps you can find him. GEN COETZEE CHAIRPERSON MR BIZOS Then you had the same problem as we had, there are two pages missing. I was reading from two pages that were given to us later. But I think that the counsel for the Commission is privy to this Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON MR BIZOS Mr Chairman, if I may be of some assistance. If Your Lordship looks at page 69, there is a blank there. We asked about that and we were told that that deals with another incident. CHAIRPERSON MR BIZOS CHAIRPERSON Page 70 is merely the general notice: Application in terms of Section 30. MR BIZOS Yes. MR CORNELIUS Mr Chairman, I will peruse the full application with my colleague and I will report back to the Commission on that. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR VISSER Seeing that General Coetzee is implicated, we would really also like to see the whole application Mr Chairman. Thank you Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS Mr Chairman, there is a question of the letter that was written by Mr Wagener that I want to deal with at this stage because it is almost the last matter that I want to deal with. The letter that I really wanted all the time was identified. My learned friend informed us that he is not prepared to show it to me, he is prepared to put it before the Committee. I know of no procedure Mr Chairman, that information can be placed before this Committee to which the people affected by it are not entitled to. My knowledge of this newspaper, of this letter or our knowledge of it is based upon a newspaper report, two newspaper reports in fact which have been stapled together, from the Argus and the Daily News. I ask for leave to hand this in. CHAIRPERSON Any objection by anyone? MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON Have you not seen them before? MR VISSER No, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS Yes, well ...[intervention] MR VISSER What we have done is, we have given a newspaper report which we had in our possession to me learned friend ...[intervention] MR BIZOS MR VISSER Is my learned friend through, Mr Chairman? May I answer? MR BIZOS Well perhaps ...[intervention] MR VISSER Are you still busy? MR BIZOS MR VISSER I will reply without seeing the newspaper reports, Mr Chairman. ADV DE JAGER Could you give us a minute to see the newspaper reports please? MR VISSER At that stage none of the police officers had applied for amnesty. You heard Mr Chairman, and we led that evidence specifically from General Johan van der Merwe in the Cosatu House, the background of ...[end of tape] ...[inaudible] and General Johan van der Merwe and others played in convincing policemen to step forward and apply for amnesty. In order to make a clear breast of it my attorney at the time, in confidence, told the Commission who certain of those people were. He told Bishop Tutu and Doctor Boraine who some of those people were at the time Mr Chairman, and this is very important. There were a lot of people who were brought to him by General van der Merwe inter alia and those names of those people were mentioned in the letter. MR BIZOS I have no objection to you receiving a copy of the letter, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] what is the relevance of this letter? MR BIZOS "Top Security Force Generals from the apartheid era, including two former Police Commissioners, have acknowledged collective responsibility for more than 20 major crimes" It appears in the last paragraph of that page that the witness is one of two Commissioners. ADV DE JAGER Mr Bizos, the term: "collective responsibility". MR BIZOS Yes. ADV DE JAGER MR BIZOS Similarly with General Viljoen. He says that: "I thought that the 1994 elections should be stopped and I gave orders to my supporters to use violence for the purposes of stopping the election. I take collective responsibility for those acts". CHAIRPERSON MR BIZOS No, no, no, but maybe the letter Mr Chairman, and this is why I want to say we know that one of the Commissioners actually was involved in Khotso House, General van der Merwe, so it was only right that he should take collective responsibility in relation to that. This is why I want to have the letter in order to ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON MR BIZOS Let me concede that that is a correct ..(inaudible). What rule of law, what rule of law Mr Chairman, in a statute in which, except in very specific instances, says when matters not be made public, on what basis does that become privileged in any way, Mr Chairman? CHAIRPERSON MR BIZOS Mr Chairman, to what effect? What is it Mr Chairman, what is it in relation to ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON MR BIZOS No, with the greatest respect Mr Chairman, if this letter means, is correctly summarised, this witness may be shown on the letter to have personal knowledge ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON MR BIZOS CHAIRPERSON Give me the letter please. MR BIZOS I have already indicated Mr Chairman, that I have no objection to you seeing the letter but Mr Chairman, may I just say before you actually decide, before you actually decide whether to dismiss my application or not, that I make the principle upon which I say no privilege exists in this? May I complete that submission, Mr Chairman? CHAIRPERSON Carry on Mr Bizos. MR BIZOS Yes. That there is no basis Mr Chairman, of any sort of privilege writing to a statutory body asking them whether they are prepared to guarantee that they will get amnesty before they apply. There is no basis for any form of privilege Mr Chairman. And any attempt to equate it to negotiations in civil proceedings is completely, I submit, outside the principle upon which privilege is being played. ADV DE JAGER MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON And this press report in my view, is completely misleading. MR VISSER It is misleading, yes of course. I was coming to that Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON "Who in certain cases and where applicable will accept collective responsibility" It is not a general statement as would appear from the press. And there is also no mention of the other matters that Mr Bizos has been cross-examining about, as far as I can see. MR BIZOS Do I understand that ...[inaudible] from my learned friend that Pebco and Goniwe are not mentioned in the letter, Mr Chairman? MR VISSER Goniwe is not mentioned in this letter. CHAIRPERSON Goniwe is not mentioned. MR VISSER Pebco is. MR BIZOS I see. CHAIRPERSON And the bombings are not mentioned, of the Schoon family and the ...[intervention] MR BIZOS CHAIRPERSON MR BIZOS MR VISSER Mr Chairman, my learned friend is totally misinformed and his attorney ...[indistinct] good. MR BIZOS We would ask for leave that he stands down until we have verified these matters so that we can cross-examine him one, and possibly if in fact this letter was made, as we are informed, was made public in another hearing then there is no substantial reason why we should be deprived of it here Mr Chairman. MR VISSER ADV DE JAGER CHAIRPERSON It seems to me that we cannot on that basis - my colleague is undoubtedly entitled to read the letter, both are, and to hear any further argument they may thing is necessary. At this stage I do not propose to make any direction. I have told Mr Bizos what - I should however say that the letter does refer to explosions in various places, not to letter bombs or things of that nature. I propose that we will return to you and if you have a copy made, my colleagues can read it during the adjournment and you may wish to consider whether there are certain portions. I can understand and I think you are quite right in that it is wrong that the names of various people who are not party to these proceedings should be disclosed. There may be other portions which you could disclose to Mr Bizos and which may render the whole of these proceedings unnecessary. MR VISSER We will look into that tonight Mr Chairman. I propose we adjourn this now until tomorrow morning and we continue ...[intervention] MS PATEL CHAIRPERSON MS PATEL No, that is the only portion where he has been mentioned. CHAIRPERSON Right, Mr Bizos, have you got any other questions for this witness? MR BIZOS Not at this stage Mr Chairman, but there are questions on another topic on which I have been informed evidence was given in other proceedings ...[intervention] NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BIZOS CHAIRPERSON Oh, this is you want to enquire ...[intervention] MR BIZOS MR VISSER Yes, but Mr Chairman, ...[intervention] ADV DE JAGER MR BIZOS MR VISSER If my learned friend could tell us which amnesty application that would also facilitate. We might be able to help him with the record. MR BIZOS I am instructed and I agree with the instruction given to me, that we would like to rely on our own resources ...[intervention[] CHAIRPERSON Does this so you can surprise the General tomorrow morning? MR BIZOS No, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Then what is it? They may want to go and look it up themselves too. MR BIZOS Yes. CHAIRPERSON MR BIZOS CHAIRPERSON The procedure of this forum was that there should be pre-trial hearings three weeks before, where parties should disclose what documents they intend to rely on. That is three weeks before the hearing Mr Bizos. MR BIZOS Mr Chairman, I have ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON But you are not prepared to give 12 hours. MR BIZOS No, no, I am Mr Chairman. I have informed you Mr Chairman that this information has been given to us whilst I have been sitting here. CHAIRPERSON MR BIZOS MR VISSER Then ask him now, here he is. MR BIZOS CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR BIZOS I am not prepared to cross-examine in blind. If there if evidence I want the evidence before me Mr Chairman. ADV DE JAGER MR BIZOS Well that would be very useful, thank you very much Sir. MR VISSER MR BIZOS MR VISSER Thank you Mr Chairman. MR LEVINE Just on a point of order, could the newspaper exhibits be given an exhibit number? CHAIRPERSON B1 and B2 MR BIZOS Yes. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BIZOS CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] MS PATEL Honourable Chairperson, ...[inaudible] MR PENZHORN CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] MS PATEL CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] MS PATEL Alright, thank you Honourable Chairperson. GEN COETZEE Yes, Madam. MS PATEL Alright. The British Government, did you see in your view, did you at that perceive them to be a communist orientated ...[intervention] GEN COETZEE No, not at all. MS PATEL Alright. So then that would be the basis I would suppose for reservations in terms of choosing the ANC offices in London as a target, given the repercussions, the diplomatic repercussions that that would have had if you were caught out? GEN COETZEE I said in my application Madam, that the primary object of this exercise was directed at against the African National Congress. The secondary one a bonus I said, it was a bonus to demonstrate to the British Government that they MS PATEL Okay. GEN COETZEE But the main thrust, the primary one was to get at the ANC. MS PATEL Given your secondary motivation, would it be then correct to state that this was one of the reasons that the instructions that were given to the persons involved in the operations was clear in terms of no person having to be injured or killed? GEN COETZEE British subjects more in particular, yes, Madam. MS PATEL GEN COETZEE No, Madam, the instructions were quite clear that no persons were to be killed. Even - you referred Madam, to the diplomatic repercussions, even if ANC personnel were killed on that occasion, the implications would have been much worse. So there were not instructions that if the one, the British subjects should not be killed but you may kill ANC personnel. There was no such distinction. MS PATEL GEN COETZEE No, I was informed that no-one was killed ...[intervention] MS PATEL And injured? GEN COETZEE MS PATEL But given the clear nature of the instructions you would have expected the operatives to ensure that those instructions were carried out meticulously, not so? GEN COETZEE Yes. MS PATEL My instructions then Sir, from the Scotland Yard in London, is that in fact the caretaker of the building, a certain Mr Mbatha was in fact injured during this operation. GEN COETZEE MS PATEL Just finally then to state that one would have expected them to ensure that even the caretaker or somebody who was there permanently would not be injured and to place the bomb perhaps in a part of the building where the chances of anybody being injured were less than in other parts of the building. GEN COETZEE MS PATEL If you would give me a moment please. I beg to differ with you Sir, the explosive device was in fact placed inside the building. GEN COETZEE My - the report back to me Madam, was that the explosive device was placed outside the building, and not, they could not gain entry or they did not attempt to gain entry into the building at all. That was my report back to me. MS PATEL Alright, I accept that then. Unfortunately my instructions were incorrect. Finally Sir, just something that I find curious. Given the possible diplomatic repercussions of this operation, it would be highly probable that at least your Department of Foreign Affairs was informed about this operation so should anything happen they would be fully apprised of has happened and be prepared for any eventuality that may arise as a result of this? GEN COETZEE MS PATEL The question Sir, is ...[intervention] GEN COETZEE CHAIRPERSON MS PATEL NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS PATEL MR VISSER evidence. Perhaps my learned friend can just tell us. MS PATEL MR VISSER An allegation has been made that a certain Mr Mbatha who was a night-watchman or a caretaker was injured, we would like to obtain information about that, medical reports etc., etc., to these injuries and how serious they were, and who is going to come and say that the bomb was placed inside the building? We would just like to know where the instructions come from. MS PATEL Secondly, regarding the question of the placing of the bomb inside as opposed to outside, I did withdraw that. MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON It appears that certain of the applicants are going to be giving evidence of exactly where they placed the bomb. If you look at page 161 of Volume 3 you will see that it was placed, on this evidence "We found an old ...[indistinct] placed the bag in a black refuge bag and placed it against the wall. We found an old broken chair lying there and placed it over the bag disguising it further" It would appear it was outside in the yard. MR DU PLESSIS Yes, Mr Chairman, and Mr de Kock says exactly the same on page 220. CHAIRPERSON GEN COETZEE Yes, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON And was Mr Raven one of them? GEN COETZEE CHAIRPERSON Was he working in your building? GEN COETZEE Yes, Sir. CHAIRPERSON He was one of the people you would see from time to time? GEN COETZEE Yes, Sir. CHAIRPERSON Because it would appear from his evidence that he was asked by Mr Craig Williamson to help with preparing a bomb. GEN COETZEE Yes, Sir, quite correct Sir. CHAIRPERSON And then he was later asked to prepare two letter bombs. GEN COETZEE CHAIRPERSON So it would appear there was common knowledge that Mr Williamson could go around asking other people working in the building there to do things for him and they did. GEN COETZEE CHAIRPERSON And you visited it and spoke to them all from time to time? GEN COETZEE Yes, Sir. When they graduated I sometimes spoke to them and I told them what their job was. CHAIRPERSON GEN COETZEE No, Sir, what happened is that the prepared all kinds of explosive devices and they showed me to defuse them. They had all the Russian limpet mines, mines and all that type of equipment there and their job was to acquaint themselves completely with every type of explosive device that was available in the world. CHAIRPERSON Yes, but here Mr Craig Williamson approaches them and says: "Make me two letter bombs", and he says: "Yes, yes, certainly", and he does so. GEN COETZEE CHAIRPERSON No, but he would have known, Mr Craig Williamson would have known that you were a visitor to that part of the building, you used to come and chat to people from time to time. GEN COETZEE Mr Chairman, they were not hidden behind a wall, it was well-known this is the explosives expert office. There was a chief there ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON GEN COETZEE ADV DE JAGER General, can I just get some clarity on something? Can I ask you in Afrikaans because the words that were used were used in Afrikaans. GEN COETZEE Certainly Mr Commissioner. ADV DE JAGER You testified that you never gave an instruction that people had to be killed? GEN COETZEE That is correct. ADV DE JAGER There is evidence before us and documents before us and I think in this matter a document was put before us which mentions that a person had to be permanently removed, he had to be eliminated. GEN COETZEE That is correct. ADV DE JAGER For the ordinary person such as I who does not know these terms and you come and tell me that I have to eliminate a person in this situation in which we lived in at that time I put it to you that a normal person would have understood: "Kill". GEN COETZEE That is quite possible, you are correct. That is how I put it in my testimony before the TRC. ADV DE JAGER And if would have the same meaning if you said: "Remove a person"? GEN COETZEE Yes, similarly it would have the same meaning. ADV DE JAGER GEN COETZEE That is correct. ADV DE JAGER Now if those words are tangible for the meaning that I attach to it, why was it not seen to that such words were not used? GEN COETZEE Mr Commissioner, the position is as I have testified before the TRC, in incidents where the, I was sent to comment on this, that each of these incidents which you have mentioned where those words appear, there were annexures. I have some of them here where I offer a qualification where the word indeed concerning the different departments, as to what it means. In the case of the South African Army for example, it was said that with eliminate was meant follow-up actions etc. ADV DE JAGER And you realised at that time ...[no English translation] GEN COETZEE I also testified that I never had access to the complete minutes of the State Security Council. The custom and procedure was that only those sections which were of application to your department would come back to you and the rest would be taken out. So I was only left with a departmental order. The original document could have moved from the Secretarial of the State Security Council down the channels and there were also police officers acting there. CHAIRPERSON GEN COETZEE CHAIRPERSON GEN COETZEE Thank you Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON MR BIZOS Do I understand that the General will not come tomorrow. CHAIRPERSON Yes, he will be here. MR BIZOS He will be here. CHAIRPERSON And my colleague has said that he has those papers and he came make them available to you tomorrow morning. MR BIZOS CHAIRPERSON MR BIZOS CHAIRPERSON Which is perhaps more useful for the rest of us than the website. MR BIZOS Well ...[inaudible] to look at it on the website. CHAIRPERSON COMMITTEE ADJOURNS