amntrans AMNESTY HEARING 1998-09-14 BOKSBURG 1 JOHANNES COENRAAD SMIT AWB HEARING https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=52864&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1998/98091415_bks_2boksbu1.htm ADV PRIOR The 14th of September 1998, and the amnesty applications of Etienne Jacobus le Roux and Others proceed. Representation of all parties are as before. I understand that the applicants are in a position to proceed with their further evidence. Sorry, are you on record? Sorry Mr Chairman, Mr Van Zyl appears for a victim in the Jan Smuts Airport attack and is present. May he just place himself on record? MR VAN ZYL As it pleases you Chairperson, Johan van Zyl on behalf of one of the victims in the Johannesburg International bombing. The victim's name is Mr Percyville Moshwetsi. CHAIRPERSON Yes. I understand that Mrs Van der Walt, you are leading the first witness. Who is he? MS VAN DER WALT Mr Chairperson, this is Mr Johan Smit. CHAIRPERSON Mr Smit, which language would you prefer to speak? MR SMIT Afrikaans. JOHANNES COENRAAD SMIT (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MS VAN DER WALT Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Smit, were you a member of the AWB? MR SMIT Yes, since the middle of 1991 I joined the AWB in the Wenkommando. Since 1992 I was a Captain in the Ystergarde. MS VAN DER WALT And you were also an accused in the case where the applicants appeared or made application for amnesty in front of this Committee? MR SMIT That is correct. MS VAN DER WALT And that was a case that was held in Johannesburg before Judge Flemming? MR SMIT That is correct. MS VAN DER WALT And you were then found not guilty on all charges? MR SMIT That is correct yes. MS VAN DER WALT Your training as a member of the Ystergarde, what did this entail? MR SMIT Well, my training, after my training my instruction was to train other members of the Wenkommando in order to begin the war. MS VAN DER WALT Do you carry knowledge of an incident that occurred in 1993 at the World Trade Centre in Kempton Park? MR SMIT That is correct. MS VAN DER WALT Can you just in short tell us why you went there and the reason why you went there? MR SMIT At that stage the leader of the AWB, Mr Eugene Terreblanche did not agree with his Generals in Staff with what happened in CODESA at the World Trade Centre. We went there in protest and to say that we will not stand for the ANC government and we will fight for our country. CHAIRPERSON Can you just explain something to me. Did I hear you correctly, that the fact that you went to the Centre was because the leader Mr Terreblanche, did not agree with the election? MR SMIT That is correct yes. CHAIRPERSON Do I also understand you correctly that what the members thought, did not matter? MR SMIT To an extent it did matter, but it was more - it had to do more with Mr Terreblanche. MS VAN DER WALT Can I continue? Can I just ask you in answer to the question of the Chairperson, the AWB as a whole, at that stage, when you went to the World Trade Centre, how did the AWB and the members feel with regard to the negotiations with the ANC? MR SMIT They did not agree with that at all. MS VAN DER WALT Did the AWB at all take part in any negotiations up to when you went to the Trade Centre? MR SMIT No, not at all. MS VAN DER WALT At the World Trade Centre, what happened there? MR SMIT At the World Trade Centre, the march was not as peaceful as we all thought. It was occupied and Terreblanche said that we will not agree with this type of negotiations, that we will make war. MS VAN DER WALT That attitude, was that discussed with the members? MR SMIT With what happened before the World Trade Centre, there were meetings whether public or closed, it was said that we will make war. That attitude was not taken in at that stage, it was discussed beforehand. MS VAN DER WALT What was your rank at that stage? MR SMIT At that stage I was a Captain in the Ystergarde. MS VAN DER WALT Now the Ystergarde, what section is that in the AWB? MR SMIT That is a specialised unit that was used in the training with the rest of the members. It is shooters, self defence, patrols, any training and that was their task and instructions. MS VAN DER WALT If I understand your evidence correctly, it seems as if the training that you gave, was military training? MR SMIT Yes, that is correct. MS VAN DER WALT Up to the time when you moved up to the Trade Centre, were there a change after the happenings of that day? Did this change take place in the AWB, did any change take place in the AWB with their feelings towards the negotiations? MR SMIT Can you just repeat your question please. MS VAN DER WALT Did a change occur in the AWB or was the Trade Centre, was that a turning point in the viewpoint of the AWB? MR SMIT Yes, definitely. MS VAN DER WALT How? MR SMIT In that the previous government, the NP government at that stage did not want to acknowledge or accommodate the right wing. MS VAN DER WALT If you talk about accommodate, what do you mean? MR SMIT It was well known that all the right wing parties stood for a Volkstaat, that we wanted our own land and goals and no one wanted to give this to us. MS VAN DER WALT Were there then changes that took place in the training that you had to give after that? MR SMIT Yes, that is correct. Instructions were given that people must be sharpened in their training, that we must make more preparations for the war that will take place. MS VAN DER WALT Can you tell me Mr Smit, can you remember, more or less when the incident in the World Trade Centre occurred? MR SMIT If I can remember correctly, it was approximately in October. MS VAN DER WALT Can you remember how close it was to the elections? MR SMIT It was approximately one year. MS VAN DER WALT If I refer you to June 1993, could it have been during that time? MR SMIT Yes, that is possible. MS VAN DER WALT Did you then provide any training after that day at the Trade Centre? MR SMIT Yes, that is correct. Approximately every weekend after that. MS VAN DER WALT During that period, was there any inspections held by the Generals in Staff of the AWB? MR SMIT That is correct yes. From time to time the Generals in Staff as well as Terreblanche would travel through the country. They would meet people at training camps, look at their ammunition, food supplies, etc. MS VAN DER WALT If you talk about food supplies, what do you mean? MR SMIT It would be tinned foods, in other words non perishables. MS VAN DER WALT And the weapons and ammunitions, what do you refer to? MR SMIT It would be handguns, shotguns and at some places illegal weapons and explosives. MS VAN DER WALT You also mentioned that there were training in explosives. Can you maybe just elaborate on that? MR SMIT That is correct, although it was not in my area, certain people, old Defence Force members were experts in explosives, who would give people private training in these camps and they were chosen people. That was for warfare. MS VAN DER WALT Can you tell the Honourable Committee, there were evidence led with regard to the Boere Krisis Aksie. MR SMIT Could you just repeat please? CHAIRPERSON You said that these people were the chosen people? MR SMIT Just to come back to that point, the people who were chosen there were either chosen by the Commander or the Generals in Staff, they were well known as they said, who would not turn their backs on them. MS VAN DER WALT I would take you back now to the Boere Krisis Aksie, can you just tell the Honourable Committee, you now in answer to the question of the Chairperson, said that it would be drawn back to the Generals in Staff. How did the Generals in Staff and the ranks under them, how did this work? Could you just explain this? MR SMIT Let us say that the General of the Gauteng area had 100 people under him, and all of them had their Commanders, and if a Commander chose a person to undergo explosive training, this person would be taken apart and he would then report back to the General and say that this and this person received the training in explosives. MS VAN DER WALT You now talk about the General of Gauteng, these Generals, are there different Generals that were deployed in the country? MR SMIT Yes, in all the old Provinces there were a General. MS VAN DER WALT And these Generals, do they then gather and have meetings and report back, or what is the situation? MR SMIT Yes, that is correct. It would be the normal Generals in Staff meetings where Terreblanche would be as well. MS VAN DER WALT What is Terreblanche's position with regard to the Generals in Staff? MR SMIT He is automatically the leader of the AWB and has got the last say and approval of all tasks that had to be executed. MS VAN DER WALT The Generals in Staff, evidence was led that they had Order Group meetings, can you explain the Generals in Staff, would they come together in an Order Group meeting and if so, what is an Order Group meeting? MR SMIT Yes, that is correct. They gather in an Order Group meeting. These meetings are closed, it would only be the Generals in Staff and Eugene Terreblanche. MS VAN DER WALT The Boere Krisis Aksie, do you carry knowledge of such an "Aksie"? MR SMIT Yes, that is correct. MS VAN DER WALT What is it and where does it fit in? MR SMIT The Boere Krisis Aksie was another right wing organisation, most of the AWB members were part of this organisation and most of the Boere Krisis Aksie members, were members of the AWB, so it was a coordinated action. CHAIRPERSON What was the difference? MR SMIT There wasn't really a difference. Everybody stood for the same goals, although some of the members were not AWB or Boere Krisis Aksie members. CHAIRPERSON Why, if everything was the same then? MR SMIT I cannot explain that. MS VAN DER WALT Who would be considered as the leader of the Boere Krisis Aksie, would that also be Eugene Terreblanche? MR SMIT No, I do not know who he was. MS VAN DER WALT These inspections that you talked about that were held, you said that was on a regular basis? MR SMIT Yes, that is correct. MS VAN DER WALT What do you mean by that, on a regular basis, can you say? MR SMIT Let us say once a month, these people were brought together either for training camps or just for inspections of the equipment. MS VAN DER WALT Did you receive instructions to in the Commando's and the Commando members, get equipment for a purpose? MR SMIT That is correct. MS VAN DER WALT For what purpose? MR SMIT That was for warfare. MS VAN DER WALT When did you receive these instructions? MR SMIT We received the instructions more intensely after June 1993 after the World Trade Centre incident. MS VAN DER WALT There was a meeting held in Ventersdorp, the Committee heard about this, it was a meeting that was held at the Trim Park. Do you carry any knowledge of this? MR SMIT Yes, that was the 2nd of April 1993, sorry 1994. MS VAN DER WALT Evidence of the applicants conveyed that they were not sure of the date, some said it was in February or March. Are you sure? MR SMIT Yes, I am sure it was the 2nd of April 1994. MS VAN DER WALT This meeting were addressed by various leaders? MR SMIT That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Can you tell the Honourable Committee, was this an open meeting or a closed meeting? MR SMIT The first part of the meeting was open, after that it was closed. MS VAN DER WALT If you talk about an open meeting, could the media be present? MR SMIT Yes, that is correct. MS VAN DER WALT And the television? MR SMIT Yes, that is correct. MS VAN DER WALT What was your impression with regards to this meeting that was held there? Let us just look at the open meeting? MR SMIT Well, the impression that was created by all the speeches that were held, was that the war is very close. MS VAN DER WALT This meeting, was that opened with prayer and reading? MR SMIT Yes, that is correct. MS VAN DER WALT By an ordinary member? MR SMIT It was done by a Reverend but who was also a member of the AWB. MS VAN DER WALT And the message that he conveyed to you? MR SMIT That was war. MS VAN DER WALT Then Eugene Terreblanche ... CHAIRPERSON Are you talking about a Reverend? MR SMIT Yes. CHAIRPERSON A minister? MR SMIT Yes. MS VAN DER WALT And Eugene Terreblanche also talked? MR SMIT Yes, that is correct, just after Mr Manie Maritz. MS VAN DER WALT Eugene Terreblanche, did he at any stage in that meeting say anything about negotiations? MR SMIT No, not at all. MS VAN DER WALT What was his message? MR SMIT We would negotiate across the barrel of a gun. MS VAN DER WALT Did he at any meeting before the elections say that he will take part in the elections? MR SMIT No. MS VAN DER WALT What was his attitude right through this period? MR SMIT That he will not vote, that he will disrupt the election completely. MS VAN DER WALT After this meeting, this open meeting, what happened then? MR SMIT After the open meeting, all the people were divided into certain groups, where the Ystergarde also formed its own group. In this period all media people and cameras were removed from this area. MS VAN DER WALT Were you then divided into groups? MR SMIT Yes, that is correct. MS VAN DER WALT What was the reason for that? MR SMIT The reason for this was that the Generals and the Commanders of each group and sections for communication or medical sections, had to sort them out and to see if the equipment were in order. MS VAN DER WALT Did you know Chris van der Heever? MR SMIT Yes. MS VAN DER WALT What rank did he have? MR SMIT He was a Fighting General in the AWB. MS VAN DER WALT What was his responsibilities? MR SMIT Chris van der Heever at that stage, was responsible for all the provision of medical equipment and he would have been able to get Ratels from a military base close by in Zeerust. MS VAN DER WALT If I put it to you, was he in charge of the Special Forces? MR SMIT Yes, that is correct. CHAIRPERSON Did that happen, that he got hold of Ratels? MR SMIT No, not at all. It was withdrawn just before the elections. CHAIRPERSON Did you believe him that he would have been able to get hold of them? MR SMIT At that stage Chris van der Heever was Commander of the Wits Command. He had a lot of say in other Defence Force Commands. CHAIRPERSON But what made you think that he was telling the truth and not just trying to show off? MR SMIT To go back, at various meetings Eugene Terreblanche said the Defence Force is on the side of the right wing and this and this percentage. This old Special Forces member had automatic say in the whole process with the right wing and the Defence Force, that they would communicate with each other in order for us to get hold of these equipment. MR MALAN Can I just make sure, did you say Chris van der Heever was a Combat General in the AWB? MR SMIT Yes. MR MALAN At the same time he was a Commander of the Wits Command? MR SMIT Yes, that is correct. MR MALAN He was actively involved? MR SMIT Yes, actively. MR MALAN Are you sure about this? MR SMIT Yes, I am definitely sure about this. MS VAN DER WALT Can you just elaborate on this aspect that the Defence Force and the Police would help the AWB in their struggle? You said that Terreblanche at various meetings said this? MR SMIT That is correct. MS VAN DER WALT Were there other people except for Terreblanche, who also confirmed this? MR SMIT Not that I can think of at this stage, no. MS VAN DER WALT At one stage evidence was also led that Constand Viljoen also had certain meetings with the AWB, do you carry any knowledge of this? MR SMIT Yes, that is correct. MS VAN DER WALT Were you present at these meetings? MR SMIT Only one at the end of 1992, beginning of 1993. MS VAN DER WALT What was his attitude with regards to the Volkstaat? MR SMIT He supported the idea like Mr Terreblanche and everybody said after that that the Volkstaat would be the only thing that would save us now. MS VAN DER WALT At this stage I would just like to show at this stage a video of events that occurred, and I would like to lead on that. MS VAN DER WALT I am not going to show the entire video, merely bits thereof. The video will of course be available to other members of legal teams. Perhaps I should just show the video entirely, and then we can lead the evidence regarding that. VIDEO FOOTAGE We ask our Chaplain General to open this meeting for us. I am going to read a section to you from the Bible, we came to the land which you have sent us to, the land of milk and honey, the land of fruit. But the people of this country had died, and the cities have been destroyed. And we saw the children of the Levites, those in the southern land and the amorites in the mountains, and those living by the sea and in Jordan. The people were silenced and Moses said, let us withdraw because we can overpower them and take over their land. But someone else said we cannot withdraw the nation and so the rumours spread through the children of Israel which said the country which we withdrew from, and the people we saw there, are great. We saw giants there. Children of the giant. Verse 30, let us withdraw and take occupation later, because we can surely overcome them. It is wonderful for me that the media can have such an effect on people. That is what the anti-Christian powers want, they want to influence the beliefs of the masses if we look at the press, the radio and the television, which has infiltrated our homes, and the masses have simply taken them up. My fellow people, our security does not lay in what the world promises our people, because your and my security lies in the safety of God, of Jesus Christ who died on the cross for us. We will not be those "bywoners" in South Africa, we will not be influenced by communism. We do not have to make any apologies for our presence as white Boer Christians here in this southern tip of Africa. God's hand of provision has brought us thus far. God has given this country to our people by means of two covenants. God's Word says today that the Lord your God, gave the country to you to earn as your parents and your parents before them, have told you. The question is, are we prepared for this or are we getting cold feet? The people must remember the promise that we will occupy the land. The moment of glory has come. We have been chosen to go and investigate the country and to report back. We have investigated the country, it is a great country with rich cities and its occupants are giants, its cities are fortified. We look like dwarfs in comparison. We cannot occupy this land. We do not have the proper weapons with which to arm our people. It is very dangerous and we are walking into trouble with open eyes. We will be destroyed. Let us turn around, we cannot risk it. Then Joshua reported and said the country which we have investigated is a good and fruitful land, the milk and honey overflows. Let us withdraw and then occupy, because we can certainly overwhelm it. That which the Lord will give to us, is good. But as usual, the report of the majority was accepted, and what a sad story. A tragic story of a nation who had thrown ... (tape ends) ... Piet Retief, that the country had been explored. I want to ask you this, how are you and I in our attitudes, by means of our God given rights to this land? How do we feel about our call as Afrikaners in this country as those who were chosen to take up this legacy given by God our Father? How do we stand towards this country which was given to our people by God. God's country is there, we must just occupy it, God gave us this country. We cannot negotiate about this land. I wonder if our people realise the seriousness of this choice. People who have the enormous responsibility of preserving God's property, that is our responsibility. That is the responsibility of the Boer volk, to reserve, preserve and develop this country which was given to us by God. Our people have been misled, thousands have died. That is our exact problem, everything is at our disposal. The riches and the words of God which are full of promise, this country with its possibilities which God gave to the people by means of a vow, what are we doing with it? Do we take it up for ourselves or are we ruining our chances? That is what Israel did. They created a land of opportunity, but they lost it because they did not have faith. Because they did not have faith, because they stood away, stood back from the cities and the giants, because they would rather chose the little that they had. Because they stood in opposition to these powers, but thank the Lord, that Joshua and his partners, did not agree with this view. They saw the Hand of God which would lead them into this country. It is the Hand of God which made the promise that you will occupy this country. You and I must remember that we got this country by means of the vow. This is the country which our predecessors, our descendants left for us. We must not fight and argue. There are many women and children in this country, which was dipped in the blood of war. I want to say to you this morning that God has given us this country already. You and I must occupy and conserve that which God has given us, even though the world says whatever it says. We must remain thankful that I should never have to report to Mandela or De Klerk. You and I will answer to God and we must answer to the question what did you do to the property that I gave you? What did you go with this country that I entrusted to you? Did you cultivate it, did you create a legacy out of it for your descendants? We must tell God today that we will fight for that which is ours. Let us fight then. Let us fight for this country which God has given us and let us fight on the same side. Let us take each other's hands. Let us walk the path of faith. Let our story never be the same as that of Israel. MS VAN DER WALT That is Mr Manie Maritz, I will only show the last portion of his speech. VIDEO FOOTAGE I could not believe how many we are, we are enough. The first thing we must remember is that we are white people, but the most important thing of all is that we believe in God who helped us out of Blood River. I say that I am a descendant, I am a white man, I am a descendant and I am proud to be a white man. I have nothing against the black man, but he is not my neighbour, he is not a member of my volk, and that is why I say to my people that we should take up each other's hands and the hands of those who must fight with us. I want to say to you today that the revolution is at hand, let us begin it, thank you. VIDEO FOOTAGE : EUGENE TERREBLANCHE When we came to the Fatherland, we came to listen and talk and make a joint decision because Paul Kruger said that in the voice of my volk, I hear the voice of my God. That is why it is important for us to participate in today's proceedings. The volk must talk, because therein lies the task of our volk. The volk is a faithful volk, which has committed itself to make this country wealthy through cultivation. We have committed ourselves to this country in God's name and to give it down to our descendants. The honour and the wealth of victory will always depend on God. A house will be built in your name and we will tell our children to the furthest generations, that this is what our volk did. We have always used you in the meetings of our volk, especially with regards to the annexation of Transvaal when the Boers felt the humiliation of the loss of their sovereignty, the volk gathered at Paardekraal and said what can we do? The volk packed the stones and spoke to God. That is when the volk decided that we cannot live in subjection, the volk was not prepared to give in and from there, the first freedom war emanated and twice thereafter the Boers stormed up Majuba mountain and took back the freedom of the volk, which was from the most powerful empire at that time, the British Empire. Those who determine the direction, those who are the natural leaders only 5 000 people from the Boer republic, went up Majuba mountain and took part in a battle which was the same as that of Blood River. Militarily speaking we had the best base. Earlier during the parade it was asked whether or not 80 percent of us sitting here, were in Bophuthatswana. You know that when you were welcomed and blankets were given to you, this was after Rowan Cronje and I had an agreement with Bophuthatswana and the former Rhodesia that the AWB's presence would be felt there. In an operation area while the Bophuthatswana Defence Force was in mutiny, while the Police were all in mutiny, Viljoen's Officer was sent to the AWB in spite of our agreements and he said the AWB must get out. They are enough to handle the situation. When his body was ripped of the vehicle and the vehicle was shot down, and the convoy was stopped, all six wounded were taken up and taken to a place of safety and this was executed within a barrage of automatic gunfire and the blacks retreated despite the fact that our bullets could not penetrate their armoury. The fire of the Boers who shot through the tiny hole which they could see, and that is how we saved the day. Our casualties the following morning, was zero. Not one single AWB member had died, five were wounded and on the other side, according to the SABC, 50 had died and 285 had been wounded. Apparently they are still running. I know of no military set-up and I am a militarist, I did patrol work for a long time, I was on the border of South West Africa where I fought for a year and 14 days. I am a militarist, it is my interest and I know of no other battle in which ordinary vehicles with handguns and shotgun fire, fought against military vehicles and ammunition, which left no single Boer casualty during that incident. Regarding our friends who were taken out of the convoy, they were occupied by the Bophuthatswana government and shot dead. There they were murdered in cold blood by the State. This Honourable Chairperson General, the blood which flowed there, is blood which heralded the beginning of the freedom struggle with the participation of thousands of men and women and children. We must now allow that our volk feels alone. We must support our volk with sincere prayer so that the Comforter of grief and tears can be felt. I feel very proud as a leader in front of proud soldiers, men of courage and determination. There was never any retreat, cowardice or lack of order. There was always discipline. I must tell you that I thought many times that I should also have left, but I did not because if I had turned around, there would have been people who said turn around and shoot, because some of our people might have died in that event. That is why I thank my Corporals. They led a convoy out of an ambush, which deserves the admiration of the world. I thank my staff, thank you very much. When I listened to Mr Willem Olivier - indeed we are threatened and people are fighting against us, the powers of Hell are fighting against us. We must remember that our Christian Creator would never expect anything from us which we cannot manage. He would never expect of us to become a Jodi Scheckter all of a sudden and becomes the world's best driving champion. He wouldn't expect of us to climb into the boxing ring tomorrow. He would never give you a task which you cannot handle. He would only show you what to do if it is possible for you to do it. If you think about the handful of Voortrekkers in the ox wagon who braved the fever and the illness alone, the illness which killed them, if we think about that, it would never have occurred to us that the Boer could win at Majuba and they did, despite all of this they did. If we think about the Battle of Blood River where we faced an enemy of 30 000, and even then we became famous in battles of the world which we won. We were made strong by our God. When it came to fighting against the Zulu's and the Xhosa's, we had to fight against obstacles, we still fight against obstacles such as communism. These are our political enemies. We must fight against the bombardment of communism from the Eastern countries. We must sound the trumpet of the volk and announce that we are here today, we must say the country is good, let's take it. We will look like locusts in comparison to our enemies, because they are giants, but this view is not entirely of application, because the group which is threatening us is not a group of giants, and we are not like locusts. That is why I say that by means of our experiences and our intellectual abilities and our spirit and the spirit of God which runs through your veins, you can never see yourself as a locus then, because of that. We are the giants then, we are the white giants. We were mentioning figures during the last couple of meetings and we have seen that there are thousands of Permanent Defence Force members. There are 250 000 Commando and active Civil members of which 180 000 at least are right-wingers. The South African Police of which 80 percent are right-wingers, and if you add on the 180 000 of the Defence Force Commando members who are right-wingers to the South African Police, and the 65 000 AWB members, then we are more than prepared. We have the minority of whites, but we have the majority of soldiers among us. Umkhonto weSizwe which has 28 million people under its representation, only has about 7 000 members, not 15 000 members. We have come out of the heart of the volk for the AWB. Not only are we the right-wingers, but we have suffered humiliation, fraud and other hardships, but we have become the strongest right wing organisation in this country. I challenge you then as Officers and as believers that I have stood before audiences and called and begged and scolded until I have gathered 60 000 of you together. Now fetch them and arrange them in your Commando's because there are very few choices. Next month this time, we will have become part of a new State and those three sixes will hover above our fatherland in the air, or will we have our Volkstaat, no matter how big or how small. We want our own piece of land in which we can protect our 60 000 men, women and children. These are our options. I have told you that I will never accept an ANC government. Since then I have never changed my mind, and therefore I cannot say anything else. I must say it once more. I am what you have made of me. My task is fulfilled in the obtaining of the Volkstaat. I just want to tell Viljoen and some of the others, that I refuse to place my Generals in command of people whom we cannot trust. With the greatest possible level of co-operation and the Boere Krisis Aksie, the greatest level of co-operation with all our friends, and with the men and women and children who are prepared to take the oath of loyalty. You will see that there are more than 60 000 of them. There will be a time when we fill find our final resting place and that will be when we ultimately obtain a much bigger Volkstaat than what Mandela had ever planned for us. I promise you that when we have won the war, Mandela will ask us for land and then we will decide whether or not we could do away with a centimetre or two. MS VAN DER WALT Thank you Chairperson. You have watched the video, is that the meeting which took place at the Trim Park? MR SMIT Yes, that is correct. MS VAN DER WALT It appears to have been on the 2nd of April 1994? MR SMIT That is correct. MS VAN DER WALT That was also your view before the video was shown, that the impression which you were under was that all addresses and speeches given, the prayer and the Bible reading was seen as preparation for warfare? MR SMIT That is correct. MR BRACHER Can the witness not be led in that fashion? I am complaining about the leading question that was just put to that witness, it was not a question at all, it was a statement to which he said yes about a critical matter here. MS VAN DER WALT Mr Chairperson, I led this evidence before the video and I am simply confirming it with regard to the video. I don't know what Mr Bracher's contention is. CHAIRPERSON The influence which you were speaking of before we saw the video, is that also part of the influence which we saw during the video? MR SMIT Yes, that is correct. MS VAN DER WALT You have also listened to the speech made by Mr Terreblanche. Was there at any stage ever said to you, even during closed meetings, that members of the AWB were to participate in the elections or not? MR SMIT It was never under any circumstances ever said to us that we would participate in the elections, we were simply to disrupt the elections. MS VAN DER WALT You have testified that after the meeting, you were divided into groups? MR SMIT That is correct. MS VAN DER WALT On the video mention was also made of call up instructions? MR SMIT That is correct. MS VAN DER WALT Did you ever receive any call up instructions? MR SMIT That is correct. MS VAN DER WALT When? MR SMIT On that specific day, the 2nd of April 1994, it was said to me and to other members that people should prepare themselves, war is just around the corner and that we would receive our call up instructions shortly. CHAIRPERSON Of which war are you speaking? MR SMIT Before the elections, Mr Terreblanche and his senior Generals in Staff were all speaking about the war, and by that they meant the disruption of the elections, that an election should not take place, even if we were to use violence to prevent it. CHAIRPERSON Is that the basis of what followed? MR SMIT That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Is that the only basis? MR SMIT Yes, that is correct. CHAIRPERSON Therefore the elections were not to take place? MR SMIT That is correct. MS VAN DER WALT Mr Smit, why was it necessary to prevent the elections? MR SMIT As Mr Terreblanche said on video, it was our common sentiment that we would never stand beneath an ANC government. He also said that the majority were on the ANC side and we were the minority of manpower. MS VAN DER WALT Okay, what was the situation with regard to the Volkstaat? MR SMIT What do you mean? MS VAN DER WALT Were any discussions ever held with regard to a Volkstaat and what was said to you? MR SMIT That is correct. It was never said that we would ever take a small piece of land of the country as a Volkstaat. MS VAN DER WALT Who said that? CHAIRPERSON Mr Terreblanche said on many occasions that even though it was a small piece of land for 60 000 people? MR SMIT Yes, but he said after that, that Mr Mandela would have to come begging for a centimetre or two. CHAIRPERSON From that small piece of land? MR SMIT No, from the entire country. CHAIRPERSON And everybody realised that this would spread throughout the country? MR SMIT Yes, it was about the entire country, not just a small piece of land. CHAIRPERSON This small piece of land upon which the Volkstaat would be established, was the entire South Africa? MR SMIT Yes, the entire South Africa, all four of the old republics. MS VAN DER WALT Mr Smit, on the video a map was shown, did you see it? MR SMIT Yes. MS VAN DER WALT What was that map? MR SMIT That was a map of the Volkstaat. MS VAN DER WALT Which areas did it comprise? MR SMIT Basically the old four republics? MR MALAN To which four republics are you referring to? MR SMIT Natal, Cape, Free State and Transvaal. The Provinces. MS VAN DER WALT On the video, certain towns were indicated which were situated in Western Transvaal, did you see that? MR SMIT Yes. MS VAN DER WALT What was the meaning of that? MR SMIT At that stage especially the Ystergarde and certain sections of the Wenkommando were sent to protect certain areas in the Western Transvaal. MS VAN DER WALT Why that area specifically? MR SMIT Because our Headquarters were in Ventersdorp in the Western Transvaal and before these incidents, before the elections, most of the towns in Western Transvaal, like Ottersdal and Sannieshof were the major AWB strongholds. MS VAN DER WALT Do you know the organisation by the name of WESBOU? MR SMIT No. MS VAN DER WALT After this particular day, the 2nd of April 1994, did you receive any further call up instructions? MR SMIT Yes, I did. Approximately round about the 19th of April 1994. MS VAN DER WALT Yes, and what was said to you? MR SMIT I was told that I should get my people together and that we should move up and gather in Ventersdorp. MS VAN DER WALT When you speak of your people, what do you mean? MR SMIT That would be the direct Ystergarde members who fell under my command in that region. MS VAN DER WALT Where did you live at that stage? MR SMIT I lived in Vanderbijlpark. MS VAN DER WALT And so therefore you included that area? MR SMIT That is correct. MS VAN DER WALT What did you do then? MR SMIT After that I gathered some of the people, amongst others Jaco Nel. We met and we drove from Vanderbijl to Pretoria where we gathered and from there Mr Hanibal, Jaco Nel and other people who were involved, collectively moved to Abie Fourie's smallholding near Vereeniging. MS VAN DER WALT This Jaco Nel, he is one of the applicants? MR SMIT That is correct. MS VAN DER WALT Mr Hanibal, what do you know about him? MR SMIT Rudi Hanibal received his training from me. He was also one of the key State witnesses in the hearing in 1994. MS VAN DER WALT You said that your rank then was Major? MR SMIT That is correct. MS VAN DER WALT Then you went to Mr Abie Fourie who is also an applicant in this matter? MR SMIT That is correct. MS VAN DER WALT What was his rank? MR SMIT He was a Commandant in direct command. MS VAN DER WALT Very well, and then where did you go? MR SMIT We waited there basically the whole night for his brother Gert, who had to come from Standerton. They all arrived at Abie Fourie's smallholding and after that we left for Ventersdorp. MS VAN DER WALT The call up instructions which you received, what exactly did that entail? What did you hear and what was conveyed by you to the others? MR SMIT Our call up instructions were to collect all our food, all our weapons and all our people together. MS VAN DER WALT It wasn't told to you what you should do after that? MR SMIT No. MS VAN DER WALT And then at Ventersdorp? MR SMIT We arrived there, we were addressed by Nico Prinsloo, Leon van der Merwe who told us that we were here to make war. MS VAN DER WALT Mr Nico Prinsloo, he was the General? MR SMIT Yes, that is correct. At that stage he was Secretary General of the AWB. MS VAN DER WALT And that is the gentleman sitting next to Mr Prinsloo over here? MR SMIT Yes, that is correct. MS VAN DER WALT And what did you do then? MR SMIT After that we were taken to Mr Kloof Barnard's farm where we stayed and prepared ourselves, our provisions and our weapons for the war which was at hand. MS VAN DER WALT When you speak of us, are you referring only to your group or other people who were there as well? MR SMIT No there were other people who were also present, they had come from other parts of the country. MS VAN DER WALT Were there many people? MR SMIT We were approximately 30. MS VAN DER WALT There was evidence that the women were moved to Ottosdal, is that correct? MR SMIT Yes, that is correct. The women were not happy about living in the bush and we moved them to Mr De Wet's farm in Ottosdal where they resided. MS VAN DER WALT Do you know anything about whether the Army would have been involved at that stage with this entire operation? MR SMIT According to my knowledge, yes. MS VAN DER WALT Did you know about the Army bases in Zeerust? MR SMIT That is correct. MS VAN DER WALT What would they have done? MR SMIT The Army base in Zeerust was an old Infantry Base and they would have provided all our armed vehicles. MS VAN DER WALT Who said that? MR SMIT That came directly from the Generals in Staff, among others Gen Chris van der Heever, the Combat General. MS VAN DER WALT Okay, the women had been moved to Ottosdal and the men, where did they go then? MR SMIT After that, the men left for Mr Leon van der Merwe's farm where we began the whole thing. MS VAN DER WALT This Leon van der Merwe, what was his position in the AWB? MR SMIT At that stage, he was the Head of the Ystergarde. MS VAN DER WALT What was his relationship, was he quite involved with AWB Headquarters? MR SMIT Yes, that is correct, he worked for AWB Headquarters. MS VAN DER WALT And Gen Prinsloo? MR SMIT He also worked for AWB Headquarters. MS VAN DER WALT There was evidence that this group of people then left for the game farm? MR SMIT That is correct. MS VAN DER WALT Did you receive any orders at that game farm? MR SMIT Basically we were told that we should prepare ourselves and our equipment, that we should be ready to make war and that we should be prepared. MS VAN DER WALT Who said that? MR SMIT Nico Prinsloo. MS VAN DER WALT The AWB members would usually take an oath of loyalty, is that correct? MR SMIT Yes, that is correct. MS VAN DER WALT Could you remember that oath? MR SMIT Yes. MS VAN DER WALT Could you say it to the Committee? MR SMIT If I walk ahead, follow me, if I turn around, shoot me. So help me God. MS VAN DER WALT What did you understand with this oath when it said if I turn around, shoot me? What was that to you? MR SMIT That would mean if I wanted to retreat as a coward and did not want to fight any longer, that I should be shot. MS VAN DER WALT This order which you received there from Gen Prinsloo that there would be no turning back, what did you understand by that? MR SMIT That we were there for good. MS VAN DER WALT To do what? MR SMIT To make war. MS VAN DER WALT Is it correct that there were many other people from other regions at that game farm? MR SMIT Yes, amongst others from Natal. MS VAN DER WALT Do you know whether apart from the game farm, there were any other places in Transvaal or in the entire region, where there were people who had also come together? MR SMIT That is correct. Koster, at some or other holiday resort approximately 1 000 people had gathered there. MS VAN DER WALT That would also be during that same time? MR SMIT That is correct. MS VAN DER WALT Do you know of any other groups who had gathered? MR SMIT Yes, I don't know exactly which places they gathered at, but I know that they gathered throughout the entire country. MS VAN DER WALT So therefore not only in the Transvaal? MR SMIT No, not only in the Transvaal. MS VAN DER WALT What were your duties during this gathering at the game farm? MR SMIT I was in charge of all guards and guarding systems who were supposed to guard the farm. MS VAN DER WALT These people who had moved along to the game farm, could they move in and out freely? MR SMIT No, not at all. MS VAN DER WALT What happened? MR SMIT There had to be special permission before you could leave the game farm. The reason for that was that we were afraid that any information or planning that we had undertaken, could be leaked out to the Police or other agents of the government. MS VAN DER WALT Headquarters in Ventersdorp during that period in time, do you know whether Eugene Terreblanche was present there? MR SMIT I wouldn't be able to tell you. MS VAN DER WALT On the Saturday, that is the Saturday before the elections, you were on the game farm at that stage? MR SMIT That is correct. MS VAN DER WALT Did any planning take place on the night before? MR SMIT That is correct. MS VAN DER WALT What happened? MR SMIT Among others it was planned to steal 4 x 4 vehicles, the only reason for that was that the terrain upon which we were moving, was not suitable for the usual type of vehicle and we needed other vehicles. MS VAN DER WALT Was there any communication between the game farm Camp and any other persons outside the camping area? MR SMIT We struggled to establish a communication system and the only other communications which we could establish, would be with Nico Prinsloo who had to drive to AWB Headquarters from the farm all the time, to obtain information. MS VAN DER WALT He was on permanent basis? MR SMIT Yes, that is correct. MS VAN DER WALT Did you know of any person living at Koesterfontein? MR SMIT Yes. MS VAN DER WALT Who were they? MR SMIT Abraham Myburgh who lived on the farm at Koesterfontein. That is where the explosives were stored. MS VAN DER WALT Mr Smit, your evidence was where you arrived at the game farm, that Sunday, the Sunday before the election, you were also at the game farm? MR SMIT Yes, that is correct. MS VAN DER WALT What happened there that evening? MR SMIT There was a closed meeting held by myself, Nico Prinsloo, Leon van der Merwe and Abie Fourie. MS VAN DER WALT Do you know Mr Johan du Plessis, also an applicant in this matter? MR SMIT Yes, that is correct. He was also present at this meeting. MS VAN DER WALT What was discussed at this meeting? MR SMIT At this meeting it was basically strategy and the planning of this whole operation that we wanted to execute and we did the final planning. MS VAN DER WALT To what operation are you referring to? MR SMIT That would be the so-called warfare. MS VAN DER WALT What was decided? MR SMIT We decided that we would only target black taxi ranks, we will not go into white areas to unstable that areas, in order to disrupt the whole election. CHAIRPERSON How would that have happened? MR SMIT That would have happened through bomb plannings. CHAIRPERSON So the whole bomb planing process was targeted at black people? MR SMIT Yes, that is correct. Yes, it was directly targeted towards them. CHAIRPERSON Why? MR SMIT If you look at the old dispensation, they were the enemy. CHAIRPERSON How? MR SMIT That was how we believed it to be. CHAIRPERSON Who said that? MR SMIT No one said that. Every person felt like that in his heart. CHAIRPERSON So the whole attack was based on racism? MR SMIT No, not at all. CHAIRPERSON But how does it work then? MR SMIT The new government is an ANC government. The ANC government exists 99 percent out of blacks, so the election had to be disrupted in order for black people not to take over the government. CHAIRPERSON No, I am talking about the enemy and that the black people were the enemy. That was your belief. How can it not be racism? It is based on the colour of a person's skin? MR SMIT If you want to look at the colour of the skin. CHAIRPERSON No, that is what you testified? MR SMIT If white people would come into this area where we would plant these bombs, he is white, left or right, we are sorry for him. In no war you find friends. The people who fight in this war, are your friends. Nowhere were there racism involved. CHAIRPERSON I do not understand this. You said that the bombs were targeted at black people. There were talk of the protection of white people. The bombs must not explode there where white people will be and I accept as far as possible. MR SMIT Yes, that is correct. CHAIRPERSON You said if I understand your evidence, that the rational behind this over the years was that it was the belief that the black people were the enemy? MR SMIT Yes, that is correct. CHAIRPERSON And you said that they were always the enemy. In this country we know that the colour of a person's skin is the only way, or were the only way to distinguish people from black or white? MR SMIT Yes, that is the only way in which you can distinguish white or black people, that is the colour of their skin. CHAIRPERSON Is that not racism? MR SMIT No, not in my eyes. No. CHAIRPERSON What is racism then? MR SMIT Any person is a racist. The definition of that is a person who loves his nation or volk. CHAIRPERSON A person who loves his nation or his volk, then he is a racist? MR SMIT Yes, that is true. CHAIRPERSON In South Africa in the way in which I understand your evidence, it was the chosen country of the white people? MR SMIT That is correct. CHAIRPERSON As a result of that, the black people were the enemy? MR SMIT At that stage, yes. CHAIRPERSON Do I understand you correct that under the chosen people, there were not one black person? MR SMIT Which chosen people? CHAIRPERSON Those who were chosen to govern this country? MR SMIT No, not at all. CHAIRPERSON On what basis was this decided? MR SMIT It is about the Volkstaat. In parts of the Volkstaat, it would be as in the old dispensation in that black people had to leave the country and go back home, let's say at ten o'clock at night. CHAIRPERSON Is it not true that according to the belief that God gave this country for the chosen people? MR SMIT That is correct. CHAIRPERSON And under those or amongst those chosen people, there were not black people? MR SMIT No. CHAIRPERSON Continue please. ADV BOSMAN Can I just ask this, from this viewpoint was the Bophuthatswana attack which was known as a black State, how is this reconcilable with the AWB's policy? MR SMIT It was targeted at international fame and national fame, firstly for Mr Terreblanche and then for the AWB. ADV BOSMAN How do you mean targeted for, are you saying that he wanted to make his name known in the attack on Bophuthatswana? MR SMIT That is correct. There was another motive and that is to begin this warfare. Later, we would also have attacked Bophuthatswana, who would we at that stage protected and made this part of the Volkstaat. CHAIRPERSON And when this happened, the AWB lost, is that not true? MR SMIT Where did they lose? CHAIRPERSON In Bophuthatswana. MR SMIT No, not according to me. ADV GCABASHE Could I just get clarity on one point. When we watched that video, the snippets we watched, I didn't hear Mr Terreblanche say that black people are your enemy, they have always been your enemy. The impression I got and the way it was translated was that it is not a racial issue. Where then do you get the idea that this war, this operation, was about the AWB attacking black people because black people have always been the enemy? MR SMIT Through the years black people always as in the Heidelberg, or the black people always killed the white children and people, and in that case it was the same. ADV GCABASHE If you were executing an operation that you thought was authorised by your leaders, you seem to be going beyond what your leaders had been saying to you just a few weeks ago about black, white and what the issue really was? This is really where my problem is. Your leaders weren't saying black people were the enemy, therefore we attack them? MR SMIT They didn't say it at all. ADV GCABASHE Yes, but this is what you are saying the rationale was, at this meeting that you held at the game farm and your whole operation was based on this issue of black people are the enemy, therefore we headed for black taxi ranks and never mind that a certain area is a white ANC area, that would not be an issue for you at all, even though you might have known that a particular area is white and strongly ANC? MR SMIT As I would have given evidence furthermore, the whole West Rand, Jo'burg of which Johannesburg is the largest liberal area. That was the target area. So if we started at black taxi ranks, there were the largest support base of the ANC was, that was the target area. MS VAN DER WALT You said that the discussion was furthermore about explosions or bombings that would take place? MR SMIT Yes, that is correct. MS VAN DER WALT What bombings were discussed on this particular evening, that is now when you were with Leon van der Merwe, Nico Prinsloo and Du Plessis and Abie Fourie? MR SMIT I am not quite sure which explosions were discussed. MS VAN DER WALT In the meeting, was there any discussion with regard to pipe-bombs? MR SMIT Yes, that is correct as well as a trailer bomb of which the trailer was the property of Eugene Terreblanche. MS VAN DER WALT Regarding the pipe-bombs, what was discussed? MR SMIT We discussed that we would build these bombs in Koesterfontein. These bombs had to be used in these bomb attacks and we had to use the equipment we had. MS VAN DER WALT Were any instructions then executed after this discussion with regards to the pipe-bombs? MR SMIT Yes, people were called together. In groups of two, two or three, three instructions were given to plant these bombs at different places. MS VAN DER WALT If you say people were brought together, of which people are you talking about? MR SMIT That would be the people that were gathered at this game farm. MS VAN DER WALT At that stage, the people who were there were then aware of the fact that pipe-bombs would be thrown? MR SMIT That is correct. MS VAN DER WALT Did you know where all these pipe-bombs were going? MR SMIT No. MS VAN DER WALT Who gave the instructions that pipe-bombs had to be thrown? MR SMIT Nico Prinsloo. MS VAN DER WALT Now Nico Prinsloo, his rank was that of a General? MR SMIT That is correct. MS VAN DER WALT When he gave you these instructions, how did you see that? Did he personally give the instruction, where did this instruction come from? MR SMIT He conveyed this instruction personally, but the instruction that he gave to us was coordinated with his driving to Ventersdorp Headquarters where the Generals in Staff and Eugene Terreblanche were and where they discussed it. MS VAN DER WALT Did he at any stage tell you that it came from the Generals in Staff? MR SMIT Yes, that is correct. MS VAN DER WALT And you say that you are not quite sure where all these pipe-bombs went? MR SMIT No, I am not. MS VAN DER WALT Did missions go out then to different areas? MR SMIT Yes, that is correct. MS VAN DER WALT You say that there was also discussions with regards to a trailer bomb? MR SMIT Yes, that is correct. MS VAN DER WALT Was that at the same time or was this discussed at the same time when you were discussing the pipe-bombs? MR SMIT Yes. MS VAN DER WALT What was discussed? MR SMIT Mr Cliff Barnard said I am going to use this trailer of Mr Eugene Terreblanche to build this bomb. Mr Nico Prinsloo then answered and his words were that he will have to tell the "Oubaas" that his trailer will be used. CHAIRPERSON You knew that these bombs could kill people? MR SMIT That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Did you agree with this? MR SMIT Yes. CHAIRPERSON From the start? MR SMIT Yes. MS VAN DER WALT You now mentioned Cliff Barnard who spoke there, but you initially testified and you did not mention that he was present. What is the situation there? MR SMIT I just forgot about that. MS VAN DER WALT This trailer, can you just elaborate on that. You said that he said that he will personally go to Terreblanche and tell him. Of who were you talking when you say he, himself? MR SMIT I am speaking about Nico Prinsloo. MS VAN DER WALT Did Nico Prinsloo tell this to Barnard? MR SMIT Yes. MS VAN DER WALT That he will use the AWB's trailer? MR SMIT Yes, that is correct. MS VAN DER WALT Was there any other discussions concerning the trailer? MR SMIT No, they said that the registration plate will be removed. MS VAN DER WALT MR SMIT That is correct. MS VAN DER WALT Did you know who planted the bomb there? MR SMIT Yes, at that stage. MS VAN DER WALT At what stage, after the bomb exploded? MR SMIT Yes, after it exploded. MS VAN DER WALT Who told you this? MR SMIT It was a closed group of us who stood there and amongst others Jan de Wet, whose vehicle was used in this trailer bomb. MS VAN DER WALT MR SMIT I am sorry, I am confused now. MS VAN DER WALT MR SMIT No. MS VAN DER WALT After this discussion took place, what happened to Cliff Barnard? MR SMIT He and Koper Myburgh and Koekemoer ... MR MALAN Just before you continue, I am confused now. I understand that you said that the discussion was about the pipe-bombs and the trailer bomb. If I heard you correctly you gave evidence in the line of that the pipe-bombs were built at Koesterfontein? MR SMIT Yes, all the bombs were built at Koesterfontein. MR MALAN Is it true that the pipe-bombs were built there or did it come from another place? Other evidence was led that it came from another place? MR SMIT The final product was at Koesterfontein. MR MALAN Did you see this yourself? MR SMIT No. MR MALAN Why are you so sure about this, that is what I would like to know? MR SMIT Well, Koper Myburgh, Cliff Barnard and this Koekemoer, they lived at Koesterfontein during that period when we were at the game farm. They brought all the stuff from there to the game farm. MR MALAN But Mr Smit, you were at that meeting that evening and the first time bombs were discussed then in your presence? MR SMIT Yes, that is correct, and that is when they brought the bombs there. MR MALAN No, but you are talking now about them being at Koesterfontein. What knowledge did you have about that? MR SMIT That is what they told us. MR MALAN So they told you that they built the bombs at Koesterfontein? MR SMIT That is correct. MR MALAN Did they arrive there at the meeting with the bombs? MR SMIT No, not with the bombs, no not at the meeting, but after the meeting took place, the people left the hall, all the people. They gathered on the verandah of the hall where the workings of the bombs were explained to them. MR MALAN You said that you had regular contact, I think you talked about driving to and fro from Ventersdorp and the farm and you had contact with Mr Terreblanche and Gen Prinsloo? MR SMIT That is correct. MR MALAN But with all this driving to and fro, when you heard about the bombs that were built and which would be used, and when they talked about the trailer, then he said he will have to go and tell Terreblanche that they will use the trailer. MR SMIT Well, I do not know if Terreblanche's trailer was taken without his permission. MR MALAN But you knew that he was in contact with him? MR SMIT Yes. MR MALAN And you did not ask him then, you did not ask him why did you build a bomb in Terreblanche's trailer without talking to him while you go there every single day? MR SMIT Nico Prinsloo never built bombs. MR MALAN Mr Smit, the evidence that you gave here, is that within your knowledge and memory? It is really difficult to follow you on this? MR SMIT I can just testify about things that were told to me, other things I cannot testify about. MR MALAN That is my problem. You testify about things that were said to you, but that does not make sense within the framework of your evidence. Are you sure that it was then said to you? MR SMIT Yes, that is correct. MR MALAN I find it very difficult to follow you. MS VAN DER WALT Can I just get clarity for you. The person who was in contact with Headquarters, who was this? MR SMIT That was Nico Prinsloo. CHAIRPERSON During that meeting where this trailer was discussed, who had to go and tell Terreblanche that his trailer will be used for a bomb? MR SMIT Nico Prinsloo would go back to tell Terreblanche that Cliff Barnard took his trailer to plant a bomb. CHAIRPERSON According to what you understood there, it was that Prinsloo knew that Barnard took this trailer? MR SMIT That is correct because Barnard in this meeting said I went to get the "Oubaas's" trailer. MS VAN DER WALT So he did not carry any knowledge of that before that incident? MR SMIT No, not at all. MS VAN DER WALT You said that the people were gathered outside and there was a demonstration held, is that correct? MR SMIT Yes. I was not present there throughout the whole demonstration, I was in charge of the guards and I had other tasks. MS VAN DER WALT Who presented the demonstration? MR SMIT It was Koper Myburgh. MS VAN DER WALT What did this entail, this demonstration? MR SMIT What I could hear and see was how long it would burn, how it is ignited and that is basically that. MS VAN DER WALT In other words, it is the workings of this pipe-bomb? MR SMIT Yes. MS VAN DER WALT And you said that the missions then went out? MR SMIT That is correct. MS VAN DER WALT That was the Monday just before the elections? That is the evidence that is in front of the Committee? MR SMIT That is true. MS VAN DER WALT You then moved from the game farm to another destination? MR SMIT That is correct. MS VAN DER WALT Where did you go? MR SMIT We went to the shooting range just outside of Rustenburg. MS VAN DER WALT Was there any other discussions held at this shooting range outside of Rustenburg with regard to any explosions? MR SMIT There were quite a few meetings, discussions about people who wanted to go back to their families, to go and greet them, and as well as the planning of which I was not part of, of the Johannesburg, Jan Smuts bombing. MS VAN DER WALT You said that the people went home to go and greet people, what do you mean? MR SMIT Initially people thought that this would be a very short thing, but after all these explosions and bombings Gen Ackerman amongst others said at the game farm, that the bombs were looking good, we are on full steam, we continue and this would be a long term thing. CHAIRPERSON This was the beginning of this was? MR SMIT That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Did you have hopes that you would win this war? MR SMIT Yes. CHAIRPERSON With how many people in the military wing? MR SMIT What military wing? CHAIRPERSON Those who would help the AWB to win this war? MR SMIT At that stage there were 1 200 people at Koster as I testified earlier on. Countrywide people were gathered, I cannot say that there were 20 000 or 50 000 people, I cannot say. CHAIRPERSON Would it only be AWB members who would be part of this war? MR SMIT No Sir, as I testified earlier on the Defence Force, Police, Commando's they would provide us with vehicles and men. CHAIRPERSON The contact in the vehicles was Gen Viljoen? MR SMIT I don't know who the contact was. I cannot say. CHAIRPERSON How do you know then that the military people of South Africa would assist the AWB? MR SMIT Like you saw on the video, they gave us numbers and before the election they said that so many Policemen and so many Defence Force men will support us, and we went on that information. CHAIRPERSON The reason why I am asking this is on that same video, there was apparently problems between Terreblanche and Viljoen, that was on the 2nd of April? MR SMIT That is correct. CHAIRPERSON How is it then that you thought that the AWB can receive support from Viljoen is there is problems between the leadership? MR SMIT We would not have supported Viljoen. CHAIRPERSON Was he not in charge or at the Head of the Military wing of the Security aspect? MR SMIT No, not at all. CHAIRPERSON You did not have any knowledge that he was the General of the Defence Force? MR SMIT Yes, I knew that. ADV BOSMAN At that stage, when Mr Terreblanche and Viljoen had problems, what was Viljoen's position then with regards to the Defence Force, was he still in the Defence Force? MR SMIT At that stage, as far as my knowledge goes, he was not a member of the Defence Force any more. He had his own right wing movement and that was the Volksfront. CHAIRPERSON Do I understand you correctly then that according to you, Viljoen would not have anything to do with the war of the AWB? MR SMIT In the beginning or in the beginning of the planning, he was involved until he decided to vote. CHAIRPERSON But when did you then discover that he is going to vote? MR SMIT It was just before April 1994. CHAIRPERSON Was it not a few days? MR SMIT It was just before the bombs went off. CHAIRPERSON The bombings occurred around the 27th, 28th of April. MR SMIT I haven't got the exact dates. CHAIRPERSON And we are talking now about the 2nd of April. You see, evidence was led earlier on that indicated that the support of Viljoen and the Defence Force carried a lot of weight, and some of the evidence was that they did not know that when bombs were planted, that Viljoen indeed pulled out? MR SMIT That is correct. CHAIRPERSON But on this video apparently on the 2nd of April already, there were problems between the two? MR SMIT I cannot testify about that. CHAIRPERSON What did you think, you personally? MR SMIT At that stage it did not even come up that there were problems between Viljoen and Terreblanche. CHAIRPERSON So you thought that the AWB would still receive support from Viljoen or the Defence Force? MR SMIT No, I did not think of Viljoen at all, but I still thought that we would receive support from the Defence Force. CHAIRPERSON How did you think that would happen? MR SMIT Well, like Chris van der Heever said of the vehicles that we would get at Zeerust, military weapons. CHAIRPERSON And men? MR SMIT Yes, we did have the men. Terreblanche said we had 60 000 men. CHAIRPERSON Let's say 100 000 men, did you think that 100 000 men would win a war in this country? MR SMIT I would win it with 5 000. CHAIRPERSON Do you believe that? MR SMIT Yes. MR MALAN Can I just follow up here, why do you believe that with 5 000 men you would win it? MR SMIT At that stage I did believe it. MR MALAN You believed it then? Can I just follow the following up, you said that the men went to go and greet their wives for the last time? MR SMIT That is correct. MR MALAN Why do you say that? MR SMIT At that stage like I also testified, it was within a time span of 24 hours from when we left the game farm and the afternoon when the men left to go home where Gen Ackerman said that we cannot turn back, things are looking good, we now continue. So we went to go and greet them and then continue with this war for a month or a year. MR MALAN You see, you initially thought that it would be very short and the evidence that we received from all the applicants was that they accepted that it would be a long period because they sold all their assets, they brought their families with them. The women were there. MR SMIT That is correct. MR MALAN And that they would build up a community there to start the Volkstaat? MR SMIT That is correct. Every person had his own view. MR MALAN But you testified that it would be a short period of time and then everybody would go home? MR SMIT That is correct, everybody had his own opinion. I left all my things at home and I would have gone to fetch it. MR MALAN Don't you want to talk just for yourself then, you said we and our group. Every time you talk on behalf of the group. If you have an opinion, please make it clear that you are busy with your own opinion. MR SMIT Yes, I will do that. MS VAN DER WALT Do you carry any knowledge that people left their homes and left their work? MR SMIT Yes, that is correct. MS VAN DER WALT Why did they do this? MR SMIT Like I said everybody has his own opinion. They thought it would be a long thing, I thought it would be a short thing. MS VAN DER WALT You further mention that at the shooting range, there was a further discussion with regards to explosions? MR SMIT Yes, that is correct. MS VAN DER WALT What did you hear there? MR SMIT I heard that the last bomb must go to Jan Smuts airport. MS VAN DER WALT Who gave this instruction? MR SMIT Nico Prinsloo. MS VAN DER WALT Did you hear why it had to go to Jan Smuts? MR SMIT Yes, it was for international publicity, in order to stop or prevent any international investments and communism was supported by foreign countries. MS VAN DER WALT Who was present when this discussion took place? MR SMIT It was myself, Abie Fourie, Johan van der Merwe, Nico Prinsloo and Johan du Plessis. CHAIRPERSON What about the white people that would have been killed in that bomb? MR SMIT Like I said earlier on, in war there is no innocent people. There are no innocent people. MS VAN DER WALT Did you then remain or stay behind at the shooting range? MR SMIT No, I also went back to my home. I then went to my parents' home in Pretoria. MS VAN DER WALT This Gen Ackerman that you are talking about, what is his position in the AWB? MR SMIT I am not quite sure, all that I know is that he was part of the Generals in Staff. MS VAN DER WALT Evidence was led that there were two Ackermans. Of which Ackerman are you talking about, the one who was at the shooting range? MR SMIT It was Dirk Ackerman. MS VAN DER WALT That was at the shooting range? MR SMIT No, it was at the game farm. MS VAN DER WALT Were there any other Generals who visited the game farm, except for Ackerman? MR SMIT With him was Alec Cruywagen and then a third person whom I do not know. MS VAN DER WALT When did they visit this game farm? MR SMIT You now mentioned a meeting where the pipe-bombs were discussed. Was this before or after? MR SMIT It was after, it was the morning of the 26th of April. MS VAN DER WALT That was the morning before you left for the shooting range? MR SMIT Yes, that is correct. MS VAN DER WALT Statements were made to some of the applicants that the people who acted there at the game farm and at the shooting range, was a splinter group or the people at Koesterfontein. What is your comment on this? MR SMIT No, it was not a splinter group. All the groups from Koster and the shooting range and countrywide, we were a combined group in instructions from the Generals in Staff and Eugene Terreblanche. MS VAN DER WALT Do you know if there were any other explosions, except for those in Johannesburg and in ... MR SMIT That is correct. The Boere Krisis Aksie just before the election, they took responsibility for certain bombings at power lines. MS VAN DER WALT Do you know if it was done by the AWB? MR SMIT No, not before we started working at the game farm. MR MALAN Can I just take you back to a previous question. You now again said that the people were gathered all over the country by the Generals in Staff. MR SMIT That is correct. MR MALAN But before you were asked about that, you said that you did not know. Can I just ask you, is it not true that the evidence of the applicants were that they came from the Free State and some from Natal? MR SMIT Yes, there were people from Natal. MR MALAN No, but also from the Free State, if I am not mistaken. MR SMIT I cannot say who came from which town. MR MALAN My question is if people came from Natal to Ventersdorp, what would make you think that there would be gatherings in Natal as well? MR SMIT That was the information that we received? MR MALAN From whom? Why would the people from Natal then go to Ventersdorp, why won't they gather there? MR SMIT It wasn't a thousand people, it was a small handful of people. I didn't say thousands. MR MALAN I asked you why do people from Natal come, if there is a gathering in Natal in any case? MR SMIT I do not know what the situation is there, I cannot give evidence about why he came to the Transvaal. MR MALAN My question is directed at something else. My question is actually what is the grounds on which you say that there were gatherings countrywide? The applicants said that according to their knowledge and perceptions, there were other gatherings within the Volkstaat area, but you are certain about the fact that there were gatherings all across the country. You first talk about the four republics, and the Cape was included and everywhere there were people gathering. Where would the war then start or begin? The evidence and you were at the Trim Park, is that we will start from a small place and we will then continue and later Mandela will then come and beg for a piece of land. How are you so sure that they gathered all across the country? MR SMIT That was the information that I received and that is as simple as that. ADV BOSMAN From where did you receive this information, can you remember? MR SMIT Yes, it was either at a public meeting or closed meeting, talk was that people would gather all across the country. MR MALAN Didn't they say that people will gather from all over the country? MR SMIT I don't know if there is a difference. MR MALAN What does gather mean? MR SMIT It means to come together. MR MALAN You come together at a certain point? MR SMIT I think the most suitable word would be points. MR MALAN How do you know that this was the planning? MR SMIT That is the information that I received. MR MALAN So you had other information to the applicants? MR SMIT That is possible, yes. MR MALAN Thank you Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Continue. MS VAN DER WALT You said that some of the other Generals were present as well. MR SMIT There was Ackerman, Cruywagen and a third person that was not known to me. MS VAN DER WALT Did they have a meeting there or what was the situation? MR SMIT They basically, I wasn't in a meeting where they were present, but the previous evening they arrived, they slept there. I cannot testify about meetings that were held. The next morning they said the bombs looked good, continue. We continue with the struggle. MS VAN DER WALT You were then arrested, is that correct? MR SMIT Yes, the morning of the 27th of April. MS VAN DER WALT Did the Jan Smuts then explode? MR SMIT At that stage I did not carry any knowledge of that and while detained, I heard about this. They said look what you have done. MS VAN DER WALT Can you just tell the Honourable Committee how it happened that you testifies in front of this Committee. MR SMIT Out of my own free will. MS VAN DER WALT Did you approach anyone? MR SMIT Only you as a legal representative. MS VAN DER WALT No further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS VAN DER WALT . CHAIRPERSON Mr Prinsloo, do you have any questions? MR PRINSLOO No questions, thank you. NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR PRINSLOO CHAIRPERSON Where do we start, Mr Van Zyl, do you have any questions? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MOTLAUNG Mr Smit, there is something that I didn't quite understand regarding the way you are going to wage your war. Is it your evidence that the bombs were actually targeted only at the black people? MR SMIT Did you ask me whether the bombs were aimed solely at the black people? MR MOTLAUNG That is correct. MR SMIT I would say that over the entire Rand area the greatest target was soft targets such as taxi ranks and so forth. MR MOTLAUNG Yes, I understand that you call some of these things soft targets, but the main import of my question is were all the bombs ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Mr Motlaung, I can tell you that he did give evidence to that effect. MR MOTLAUNG Thank you Mr Chairman. Now, you say that according to you, this was not racism? MR SMIT That is correct. MR MOTLAUNG And tell me, if this amounted to racism in your view, would you have gone on with the war? MR SMIT At that stage in my heart I believed and felt that it was right, that we should wage the war and that we would maintain that which we had built up. CHAIRPERSON That who built up? MR SMIT That which the whites had built up in their existence in this country. MR MOTLAUNG And you say that according to you, no innocent people were to be killed? MR SMIT No, I didn't say that. I said that one would never find innocence in any war. MR MOTLAUNG Now tell me, the people at who the bombs were directed, the taxi ranks amongst others, were they not the innocent people in your mind? MR SMIT I have just said that there were no innocent people. Take note, no innocent people. MR MOTLAUNG Maybe I don't understand the answer, what is the answer? MR SMIT I said that in no war would there be innocent people. MR MOTLAUNG That I understand that some innocent people can be caught in the crossfire, but what I am asking is these people at the taxi rank, the ones that you actually aimed to kill or maim, were they not innocent? MR SMIT Let us just get away from this idea of innocent people, there were no innocent people. The aim was to kill and injure people, to do anything to disrupt the elections. In other words there are no people ... CHAIRPERSON Why weren't the voting places not blown up? MR SMIT The objective was to disrupt the election, it was not to take place and that is why everything had to happen before the 27th of April. CHAIRPERSON If that was the target and if the plan was to prevent the elections, why then didn't you blow up the ballot boxes? MR SMIT The 27th of April ... CHAIRPERSON Instead of putting people's lives at risk. MR SMIT Whether we blew up the ballot boxes or not, people would still have died. The major objective was that these actions were to take place before the 27th of April, not on the 27th of April and not after the 27th of April. CHAIRPERSON I see. So the bombs which were planted on the 25th were correct? MR SMIT That is correct, before the 27th of April. CHAIRPERSON Well, that is why I am asking why weren't the ballot boxes blown up before the 27th? MR SMIT Because they would have found another place to place the ballot boxes and hold the election. The idea was to disrupt the election entirely so that it would not take place, so that people would not go to the ballot boxes on the 27th of April. CHAIRPERSON So bomb explosions would take place at the taxi ranks and that would have prevented the elections from taking place? MR SMIT That is what we hoped for. CHAIRPERSON Yes, Mr Motlaung? MR MOTLAUNG Mr Smit, as far as the bombs are concerned, did you have any role to play yourself? MR SMIT No. MR MOTLAUNG I've got no further questions Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MOTLAUNG CHAIRPERSON Mr Bracher? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BRACHER Mr Smit, what are your full names? MR SMIT Johannes Coenraad. MR BRACHER Did you tell the story you have told this morning, to the Criminal Court? MR SMIT I did not testify in the Criminal court. MR BRACHER Did you plead not guilty? MR SMIT That is correct. MR BRACHER Were you represented by Counsel? MR SMIT That is correct. MR BRACHER Have you applied for amnesty? MR SMIT No. MR BRACHER As I understand the evidence, you were aware of the Jan Smuts bomb and the Boksburg bomb and the pipe-bombs before they occurred, and you were part of the organising structure in the meeting, is that correct? MR SMIT That is correct. MR BRACHER Are you prepared to accept personal liability for the injury and damages and death that were caused there? MR SMIT No. MR BRACHER Why not? MR SMIT I have no desire to do that. MR BRACHER Do you accept personal responsibility, I don't care whether you have got the facilities or means or not? If I issue a summons against you, will you consent to judgement? MS VAN DER WALT Mr Chairperson, I would just like to place it on record that the very same Mr Bracher with regard to the previous amnesty applications, also issued a similar threat. I would like to put it to the Committee that this was quite a problem for the applicants. The applicants are here and it is the Committee's duty with regard to the Constitution and the Law, the applicants are here to present the truth to you, they are also here to present evidence before you so that you, the Honourable Chair and the rest of the Committee, can construct the bridge which is mentioned in the Constitution among the divided community which existed and the future which lies ahead of us. How can it be expected in this country that reconciliation be achieved, if these applicants arrive here with the greatest will in the world and they try to present evidence which would support their applications, if they are forced to do so under duress. CHAIRPERSON What is wrong with the question? MS VAN DER WALT It is a threat Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Why do you see it as a threat, it is a simple question? MS VAN DER WALT To ask this applicant whether or not he would accept accountability for a civil claim, if that is not a threat Mr Chairperson, then I don't know any more. CHAIRPERSON I am not sure whether it was a threat, I don't know if it was intended as a threat, because this witness is not an applicant. MS VAN DER WALT He is not an applicant, but he is being threatened with that, with a civil claim, and the same thing happened on a previous occasion. CHAIRPERSON I really wouldn't be able to say if this is a threat, it was simply a question with regard to whether or not he would accept accountability. Yes, Mr Bracher? MR BRACHER As the Chair pleases. I just want you to understand that what you are doing today is confessing to a crime, and confessing to a civil wrong which makes you personally responsible. Do you understand that? MR PRINSLOO At this point, I would just like to intervene, with respect, that Mr Bracher was aware of the fact that this man was an accused before Judge Flemming. He is aware of what the allegations were. I don't know where he is coming from. CHAIRPERSON I think Mr Prinsloo that he can clear this up with regard to this civil case which he is mentioning. Quite honestly, I don't understand what the problem is with the question. MR PRINSLOO With respect, I don't understand what the relevance is of the civil claim if any such evidence cannot be used, any evidence which is given here, cannot be used in a civil claim? CHAIRPERSON Allow him to answer the question, then I will tell you. MR BRACHER Do you understand my question? MR SMIT I prefer not to give evidence any further regarding this matter. I did understand it. CHAIRPERSON Do you not want to answer the questions? MR SMIT I will answer the question but if I am going to be sued because of this, I wish to say nothing further. MR BRACHER Is Nico Prinsloo here today? MR SMIT That is correct. MR BRACHER Do you know if he is going to give evidence? MR SMIT No. MR BRACHER Can you point him out to me please? MR SMIT He is sitting right next to Mr Prinsloo. MR BRACHER Mr Smit, what did you do in the war? MR SMIT In which field? MR BRACHER Anything, tell me something you did to fight this war? This great war to get your homeland. MR SMIT Well, to begin with I trained people before the elections. I was part of a group of the group who was at the game farm and those who were going to distribute the bombs. MR BRACHER The trailer bomb group? MR SMIT I had knowledge thereof but I did not execute anything like that? MR BRACHER Did you consider yourself to be part of the trailer bomb group? MR SMIT No. MR BRACHER Do you consider yourself to be part of the Boksburg bomb group? MR SMIT No. MR BRACHER Do you consider yourself to be part of the Jan Smuts bomb group? MR SMIT No. MR BRACHER Was this discussed in a meeting at which you were present? MR SMIT There were senior members present at that meeting. MR BRACHER (No sound) MR SMIT Major - the whole Ystergarde of the Gauteng area. MR BRACHER (No sound) MR SMIT It is very difficult to estimate at this stage. MR BRACHER Estimate. MR SMIT Approximately 15. MR BRACHER Were they all on the farm? MR SMIT Correct. MR BRACHER Were they all with you on the farm? MR SMIT No, not all of them. MR BRACHER At home? MR SMIT That is correct. MR BRACHER Why didn't you shoot them in your war, isn't that your oath? MR SMIT In the first place it is rather a ridiculous question. CHAIRPERSON Mr Bracher, he hasn't testified that they stayed at home because they didn't want to fight the war. MR BRACHER What were they going to do at home? INTERPRETER Could the speaker repeat the question? MR SMIT To come back, I would just like to repeat that it is quite ridiculous for you to ask me that question. The way I feel about an oath and your feelings about an oath, would be two totally different sets of feelings. MR BRACHER ... ranks in the AWB, correct? MR SMIT That is correct. It was a paramilitary civil organisation, nothing to do with the government or the army. Yes, we maintained discipline. MR BRACHER What did you do disrupt the elections? MR SMIT I was part of a group, of the group who was at the game farm and those who were going to distribute the bombs. MR BRACHER Do you consider yourself to be part of the trailer bomb group? MR SMIT I had knowledge thereof but I did not execute anything like that. MR BRACHER Do you consider yourself to be part of a trailer bomb group? MR SMIT No. MR BRACHER Do you consider yourself to be part of the Boksburg bomb group? MR SMIT No. MR BRACHER Do you consider yourself to be part of the Jan Smuts bomb group? MR SMIT No. MR BRACHER Why was it discussed at a meeting at which you were present? MR SMIT There were senior members present at that meeting. MR BRACHER What was your rank? MR SMIT Major. MR BRACHER How many people were under you? MR SMIT The whole Ystergarde of the Gauteng area. MR BRACHER How many people was that?? MR SMIT It's very difficult to estimate at this stage. MR BRACHER Give me an estimate. MR SMIT Approximately 15. MR BRACHER 15? MR SMIT That's correct. MR BRACHER Were they all on the farm? MR SMIT Please repeat. MR BRACHER Were they all with you on the farm? MR SMIT No, not all of them. MR BRACHER Did some of them stay at home? MR SMIT Correct. MR BRACHER Why didn't you shoot them, if they don't want to participate in your war? Isn't that your oath? MR SMIT It in the first place it's rather a ridiculous question. CHAIRPERSON He hasn't testified that they stayed at home because they didn't want to fight a war. MR BRACHER What were they going to do at home? INTERPRETER Could the speaker repeat the ...[intervention] MR SMIT To come back, I'd just like to repeat that it's quite ridiculous for you to ask me that question, if he doesn't want to he doesn't want to. MR BRACHER That's not your oath is it? MR SMIT The way I feel about an oath and your feelings about an oath would be two totally different sets of feelings. MR BRACHER Now you had ranks in the AWB, correct? MR SMIT That's correct, it was para-military civil organisation, nothing to do with the government or the army. MR BRACHER Did you have discipline, army discipline? MR SMIT Yes, we maintained discipline. MR BRACHER How many chains of command? MR SMIT It depends in which division of the AWB or Ystergarde. MR BRACHER Ystergardes. MR SMIT From the Colonel, who was Leon van der Merwe at that stage, right through to Lieutenant. MR BRACHER Did you have a chain of command? I mean a junior officer wouldn't argue with a senior officer? MR SMIT That's correct. MR BRACHER Some of the witnesses spoke about "Christelike norme en standaarde", did you use those in your army? MR SMIT Correct. MR BRACHER Did you apply the Geneva Convention to your war? MR SMIT I don't know exactly what is contained within the Geneva Convention. MR BRACHER One of the things the Geneva Convention doesn't permit is the targeting of civilian targets only. MR SMIT Well that is a foreign idea. In my mind there were no innocent people. MR BRACHER Tell me, who trained in the use of explosives, who did the training in the use of explosives? MR SMIT I can't remember the name at this stage. There was training in various areas by various people. MR BRACHER You don't know of anybody who did such training, that you can name today? MR SMIT Yes, Chris van der Heever is one of the persons who provided explosives training. MR BRACHER Is that the Brigadier you're talking about? MR SMIT That's correct. MR BRACHER And who - do you know of anybody who was trained in the use of explosives? MR SMIT Among others, Chris van der Heever, yes. MR BRACHER No, who received training, anybody that you know? MR SMIT No. MR BRACHER Now I want to go back to these meetings where the targets were chose. Who gave instructions about what targets were chosen? MR SMIT Nico Prinsloo gave those instructions via top structure and Eugene Terreblanche. MR BRACHER No, don't worry about what you heard about. Who did you hear giving instructions about the choosing of targets? MR SMIT Repeat the question please. MR BRACHER Who did you personally hear giving instructions about the choice of targets? MR SMIT Nico Prinsloo. MR BRACHER Anybody else? MR SMIT No. MR BRACHER And what exactly did he say the target should be? MR SMIT It's very difficult to say exactly what he said but he said soft targets, preferably taxi ranks and bus stops. MR BRACHER Who did he gave those instructions to? Who did you hear him give those instructions to? MR SMIT In these closed meetings mention was made of names which I mentioned earlier. MR BRACHER Is that the only time you heard him give the instructions? MR SMIT Just give me a chance. After that on the stoep the rest of the group gathered and Koper Myburgh demonstrated the bombs. MR BRACHER Who spoke at that meeting? Koper Myburgh? MR SMIT Koper Myburgh gave the demonstration of the bomb there, Nico Prinsloo gave the targets. He didn't say: "Go and blow Boksburg taxi rank, he said: "Go and blow up a place in Boksburg", whether it was a taxi rank, a station or a bus stop it didn't matter. MR BRACHER Did he mention Boksburg? MR SMIT No, I just take it as an example. MR BRACHER Did he not mention Boksburg? MR SMIT Not that I can remember. MR BRACHER Did he mention specific ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Who would have decided then that Boksburg, the taxi rank in Boksburg would have been a target? MR SMIT Please repeat. CHAIRPERSON Who would have decided on that? MR SMIT Decided on what? CHAIRPERSON That the taxi rank in Boksburg should be a target. MR SMIT I assuming the generals and staff, those who would have attended the planning phase of this entire operation. CHAIRPERSON The is question is aimed at trying to determine who would have told those who planted the bombs to place a bomb at the taxi rank in Boksburg specifically. MR SMIT If that order had to be given it would have been given by Nico Prinsloo. MR BRACHER You didn't hear that instruction being given? MR SMIT Not at all, no. MR BRACHER To this day you don't know who was responsible for the Bree Street bomb in Johannesburg? MR SMIT No. MR BRACHER Just tell me exactly what you know about the Boksburg bomb and when you first heard. MS VAN DER WALT I would just like for Mr Bracher to indicate, the Boksburg bomb, to which incident exactly are you referring? MR BRACHER Sorry, it's Germiston bomb. MR SMIT I don't have all my facts together regarding which bomb was planted where and whether it was a trailer bomb or a pipe bomb, so if you could just give me a bit more clarity regarding that. CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] INTERPRETER The speaker's mike is not on. CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] INTERPRETER The speaker's microphone is not on. CHAIRPERSON Sorry. MR SMIT I would just like to ask, if it's a pipe bomb then it would have been on that evening that the pipe bombs left the farm. MR BRACHER The trailer bomb, what do you know about the trailer bomb? Where did that go off? MR SMIT Germiston. MR BRACHER Now when did you first hear about that? MR SMIT I heard about that when volunteers were asked to go and plant the bomb, and Jan de Wet and he said that he would use his own vehicle. MR BRACHER Now when did that happen? MR SMIT I'm not entirely sure. MR BRACHER Well you remember hearing him, where did you hear him, what meeting or what place? MR SMIT It was on the game farm. I'm not certain but it could have been on the evening that the pipe bombs left the farm. That is when the volunteers had been requested. MR BRACHER Is this in the public meeting on the stoep, the open meeting? MR SMIT The whole thing began with Barnard in the closed meeting and then led to the open meeting on the stoep. MR BRACHER So they would have asked for volunteers at the meeting on the stoep and Jan de Wet stepped forward, is that your evidence? MR SMIT That is correct, just as all the volunteers of the pipe bombs were asked there as well. MR BRACHER I'm talking about the trailer bomb, don't get the "pyp bomme" mixed up with this. MR SMIT That's correct, all the volunteers were asked that evening on that stoep. MR BRACHER But we know Mr Vlok wasn't there, he was involved in one of the bombs. MR SMIT I can't testify regarding who was there and who wasn't there at that stage. I know of certain people who were there ...[intervention] MR BRACHER Who called for volunteers?? MR SMIT Nico Prinsloo. MR BRACHER You say Nico Prinsloo went out and addressed the gathering and said: "I want volunteers for a trailer bomb", and Jan de Wet stepped forward? MR SMIT No, I never said that he wanted volunteers for a trailer bomb attack, he addressed the meeting on the stoep and asked for volunteers to throw bombs. They were looking for a vehicle which could draw a trailer for the trailer bomb and Jan de Wet was someone who had a vehicle that had a towbar on. MR BRACHER I don't understand your evidence. Was a trailer bomb mentioned in this gathering on the stoep? Did they ask for volunteers? Otherwise, where did it take place? MR SMIT All that I can say is that the volunteers, according to my knowledge, for all bomb attacks were requested on the stoep. MR BRACHER Yes, but you say: "So ver dit my kennis strek", did you hear it happening, did you see Jan de Wet volunteer, did you see Prinsloo ask him to, asking for trailer bomb volunteers or was not of that actually seen and heard by you? MR SMIT Okay, I was inside the hall and we were still busy with radio communications, the establishment thereof. I heard everything which happened. I just heard that de Wet said that he would be driving his own car. MR BRACHER Did you hear somebody asking him to volunteer for a trailer bomb and who was it and where was it? MR SMIT It was pertinently put to him, they said: "We're looking for a volunteer who will draw a trailer for us". Jan said that he would be prepared as long as he could use his own vehicle. MR BRACHER Is that your evidence? All you heard was a volunteer to tow a trailer and Jan de Wet said: "I will tow a trailer"? Is that your entire of this? MR SMIT That's correct because it was about the trailer, and previously we were talking about the "oubaas". MR BRACHER The Commission will decide that. Now go to the Jan Smuts bomb, tell me exactly what you heard, who said what to whom? MR SMIT No, I cannot testify regarding who said what. MR BRACHER Well you did already give evidence this morning, so tell me what your evidence is because the trailer has got into nothing, now what about the Jan Smuts bomb? MR SMIT It was just said by Nico Prinsloo that we should plant a bomb at Jan Smuts airport in order to elicit international reaction and also to stop international investment. MR BRACHER Prinsloo said that? MR SMIT That's correct. MR BRACHER When did he say that? MR SMIT He said that in the afternoon just before we went home, during the meeting when we were talking about the Jan Smuts incident. MR BRACHER The closed meeting, the open meeting or neither? MR SMIT It was during a "geslote vergadering" meeting at the shooting range just outside Rustenberg. MR BRACHER Now who was at that meeting? MR SMIT It was me, Abie Fourie, Nico Prinsloo, Leon van der Merwe and du Plessis. CHAIRPERSON Mr Smit, before we proceed or adjourn, were you involved in any decision to plant a bomb, wherever? MR SMIT No, I did not tell anybody to plant a bomb because the way I understand it ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON As I understood your evidence you were a trainer amongst the Ystergarde, what did you teach them? MR SMIT Well explosives was not part of my field, I dealt with self-defence and weapons. I also provided sharp-shooter training but in no way explosives. CHAIRPERSON So you weren't an expert in the field of pipe bombs, so what were you doing there, why were you called in? MR SMIT In the same way that everybody else was called up I was called up as well. CHAIRPERSON But the way that I understand it, you had absolutely nothing to do with this? MR SMIT Well many did nothing in many people's eyes but I was part of the group. CHAIRPERSON So you say you did nothing, you know nothing? MR SMIT No, that is not what I'm saying. CHAIRPERSON As I understand your evidence you can't say who made decisions, you can only say that Mr Prinsloo gave the orders from time to time. You cannot say how people were chosen to plan certain bombs, am I right so far? MR SMIT As I have testified, volunteers were requested. CHAIRPERSON But you don't know who asked? MR SMIT Nico Prinsloo did the asking but I don't know who volunteered. CHAIRPERSON Now you say that you were part of a meeting during which the strategy was planned? MR SMIT That's correct. And what I mean by "strategy" is what we were going to do, were we going to plant pipe bombs, trailer bombs, that kind of thing ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Is that all? MR SMIT Under strategy yes. CHAIRPERSON But not where it would be planted and who would plant it? MR SMIT Not at all. CHAIRPERSON That was not part of strategy? MR SMIT Well where it would be planted would be decided on a level much higher than mine. CHAIRPERSON So that meeting couldn't really have taken very long if the only decision to be made was whether or not you'd be planting pipe bombs or trailer bombs. MR SMIT No, not long at all, we were speaking of a couple of minutes. CHAIRPERSON Can we take the adjournment now. There's just one question. MS GCABASHE Mr Smit, just as a follow-up question to that, what was your contribution in that strategic planning forum, what contribution did you make to the discussion? MR SMIT As I have already testified, the strategy which I have mentioned had to do with equipment. That is what I mean by "strategy", the type of equipment that we would use. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION JOHANNES SMIT (s.u.o.) MR MALAN Could you please just inform us a little more with regard to your answer, what exactly do you mean by strategy, what exact strategy was discussed during the meetings? MR SMIT All that I can say is that it was the strategy that was used. We had the minimum at our disposal. Our strategy would be, right, we have to plant a bomb, what type of bomb, how we're going to plant it. MR MALAN But if I understand your evidence correctly, when you had that so-called strategy meeting, the pipe were already there. MR SMIT No. The first meeting was held and during that meeting we decided what we would do and we would plan that. During that meeting we were told that bombs were already being manufactured at Koesterfontein. We left meeting, went into the second meeting and that is where Koper Myburgh and Cliff Barnard and Koekemoer were told: "There are the pipe bomb". MR MALAN Was the second meeting the open meeting? MR SMIT Yes, that's correct. MR MALAN So they walked in between the closed and the open meeting? MR SMIT Yes, basically. MR MALAN Were the pipe bombs not demonstrated during the first closed meeting? MR SMIT No, only during the second open meeting. That is all that I know of. In the closed meeting we spoke about the trailer bomb but a pipe was never in that room during that meeting. When we went to the second meeting the pipe bombs were retrieved from the car. MR MALAN When it was said that a trailer bomb was being manufactured at Koesterfontein, this was said to you during the closed meeting. MR SMIT Yes. MR MALAN But then the strategy would have been determined a long time ago? MR SMIT What I understand under strategy is what took place during that meeting. MR MALAN But I still want to know what the strategy is, because you've been told that a bomb is being built in a trailer, it's Mr Terreblanche's trailer, we must go and tell the old boy, and you've been told that pipe bombs are being manufactured, these pipe bombs are supposed to be thrown but you're not informed where they should be thrown. This is while you are busy with radio communication and then you hear people being asked to volunteer for these activities, what kind of strategies are you talking about? MR SMIT I can only once again reiterate what I was involved with and that was: "What are we going to use and how are we going to use it". MR MALAN But you already knew that you had it, that it was being manufactured, the decision had been taken. You were told that a trailer bomb was being manufactured. It wasn't as if you sat there not knowing what you had, you were told what was being done, you were confronted with a strategy, according to your evidence. You were not part of the planning? MR SMIT Well then strategy planning is probably the incorrect term. ADV BOSMAN What do you understand under the word strategy? MR SMIT Planning. MR MALAN May I ask you two questions? The video which was displayed to us, where did you find this? Did you make this available to Mrs van der Walt? Did you have any knowledge of this video? MR SMIT No. MR MALAN And in your background, what is your career or your profession, were you in the police? MR SMIT No, I was national member of the army. MR MALAN What else have you done? MR SMIT I work for a private company. MR MALAN In which field? MR SMIT Finances. CHAIRPERSON Mr Bracher, I was hoping to take tonight's plan home but I've changed my flight to half past twelve tomorrow. MR BRACHER Mr Smit, you told us that at the meeting where it was announced that there was a bomb being built at Koesterfontein, Mr Abie Fourie and Mr du Plessis were present, is that correct? MR SMIT That is correct. MR BRACHER That's Mr Johan du Plessis, one of the applicants in this matter? MR SMIT Correct. MR BRACHER I want to put it to you that neither of them said anything about that in their evidence. And if the Commission should believe you and find that they have not made a full disclosure of all relevant facts, they may not be entitled to amnesty. Do you nonetheless persist in saying that it was said at a meeting at which they were present? MR SMIT I cannot testify about somebody else's testimony. MR BRACHER Do you persist in saying it was said at a meeting at which they were present? MR SMIT As far as I can remember, yes. MR BRACHER Excuse me, "so ver soos u kan onthou"? Is there some doubt as to whether it was said at meeting at which they were present? MR SMIT I'm not saying that I doubt it, I'm saying that as far as I can remember they were there. MR BRACHER What does that mean, do you mean you remember it happening there? CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] MR SMIT Like I said, as far as I can remember they were there. CHAIRPERSON What do you mean: as far as you can remember? Either you remember if they were there or you do not remember they were there. MR SMIT I remember they were there. MR BRACHER And the meeting at which a bomb in Jan Smuts was discussed, Mr Abie Fourie was there as well you said? MR SMIT That's correct. MR BRACHER And Mr du Plessis? MR SMIT That's correct. MR BRACHER And if Mr Prinsloo carried out his intention, Mr Terreblanche must have known there were bombs being built, trailer bombs being built as well? MR SMIT That's correct, Mr Terreblanche would have known about all of these bombs. MR BRACHER How do you know that? MR SMIT Because this was direct instructions, as we received it directly from him and the generals in staff. MR BRACHER You got it direct from Mr Prinsloo, you didn't get direct from Mr Terreblanche. MR SMIT Mr Prinsloo was a member of the generals in staff, the generals in staff's instructions and execution of it is approved by Mr Terreblanche directly. MR BRACHER Well I'll leave it at that, you don't know that. I just want to ask you about the Volkstaat, have you got in front of you these volumes? There's a bound volume called: "Index, Volume 1" and if you have, please turn to page 95. We're looking at the evidence of Mr Vlok, Johannes Abraham Vlok. Similar evidence was given by the other applicants. Can you just read aloud paragraph 21 please? MR SMIT "The instruction was given that we must move to the Western Transvaal where the future Volkstaat would be established and that all members must leave their work and houses to go to the Western Transvaal in order to protect the Volkstaat. If they do not follow the demands of the Afrikaner Boerevolk, the election will not take place" MR BRACHER And just turn over the page and read the introductory part of, the first sentence of 24. MR SMIT "We as members of the AWB believed that the Western Transvaal will become the future Volkstaat and that we must protect and get hold of this at all costs. At that stage the AWB already received the freedom of 21 Western Transvaal towns" MR BRACHER You see, the evidence was here that the Volkstaat was going to be in the Western Transvaal, and when I listened to that video I didn't hear anyone speak about: "die hele land", did you hear those words being used? MR SMIT The whole country was not mentioned no, but what does mean but that Mandela would come and beg for a centimetre of land. MR BRACHER Can you explain why some of the applicants would sell property in Pretoria if that was going to be part of the Volkstaat? MR SMIT The beginning of the Volkstaat would have been the Western Transvaal, so somewhere we needed a beginning. That is all that I can testify. MR BRACHER But were your instructions not to "bekom en beskerm" the Western Transvaal? MR SMIT At the beginning, yes. MR BRACHER I also didn't hear on the video anything about "ontwrigting van die verkiesing". That wasn't said in any of the extracts, was it? MR SMIT I cannot comment on that. MR BRACHER Well you listened to it when I listened to it, did you hear anybody say that the instructions given at that meeting were to "ontwrig die verkiesing"? CHAIRPERSON Mr Bracher, to be quite fair, there were insinuations at least that the forthcoming elections were not acceptable. MR BRACHER Yes. CHAIRPERSON Now while there may not have been as forthright an allegation that there must be an attack on the elections, one can read in the circumstances, an attack, when they say they didn't find it acceptable. MR BRACHER I won't pursue it Mr Chairman. You said that at these meetings you were in charge of "toerusting", what did you actually do, what did you supply or obtain? MR SMIT Which meetings are you talking about? MR BRACHER Meetings at which bombs were discussed. MR SMIT That would be at the game farm. MR BRACHER Excuse me? MR SMIT Is that now on the game farm? MR BRACHER Ja. MR SMIT I never got hold of any equipment, it was already obtained. MR BRACHER The other evidence that we had here was that there was an operational radio on the farm which was in touch with the head office of the AWB, which would not make it necessary for Mr Prinsloo to drive backwards and forwards. MR SMIT As I also testified, at the meeting on the verandah of the game farm, the same distance as we are from each other, I was still busy struggling to make connection with the head office and we could not do that. MR BRACHER The other evidence is wrong? MR SMIT What evidence? MR BRACHER There was evidence in this hearing that there was radio communication between the farm and head office. MR SMIT No, we couldn't make connection or communicate with head office, that is why it was only Nico Prinsloo who drove to and fro. MR BRACHER ...[inaudible] MR SMIT Is that now ...[intervention] MR BRACHER No, sorry, in this period when you were gathering in the Western Transvaal. MR SMIT I arrived at head office when we got there and I wasn't there again. MR BRACHER No further questions, thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BRACHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS CAMBANIS Thank you Mr Chair. Sir, you say that the purpose to get back to the - the purpose was to disrupt the elections and you believed that these bombings would further that aim, would disrupt the elections? MR SMIT That's correct. MS CAMBANIS Now on the tape we hear Mr Terreblanche saying that: "Next month this time we will have a new government", did you hear that on the video tape? MR SMIT Correct. MS CAMBANIS Would you agree with me that it seems as though Mr Terreblanche himself was of the view that within a month from the 2nd of April there would be a new government? MS VAN DER WALT That is not put in the context properly. It was very clear that Terreblanche said that there are only two choices. I did make a note of it. He said that there are only two choices, either there will be a new government with the flag of the 666 or we will be a Volkstaat. It was a choice between these two. CHAIRPERSON I do not believe that that's what the attorney asked, she's not talking about options. MS VAN DER WALT Then I think, with respect, it must be put clearer because I do not follow to what she is referring. CHAIRPERSON But your client or witness said that he does have knowledge of it. MR SMIT I do carry knowledge of what was said on the video but I agree with my legal representative that there were two options. It was not said that within a month we will have a new government. We had two options, either a Volkstaat or under a new government. CHAIRPERSON Mr Smit, I don't know if I have it correct but as I remember it he said: "If we do not do certain things we will have a new government next month". Is that not right? MR SMIT That's correct. CHAIRPERSON And my opinion he talked about warfare. MR SMIT That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Is that what you are talking about? MR SMIT Yes. CHAIRPERSON Answer the question then please. MS CAMBANIS Mr Chair, I had my note as Mr Terreblanche saying: "Next month we will have a new government", I didn't have the note on options. I was asking ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] MS CAMBANIS Yes. CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] INTERPRETER The speaker's microphone is not on. CHAIRPERSON He was suggesting certain processes. As I understood it, in the context of making war. And he said if those things did not occur then by next month they would have had a new government. MS CAMBANIS Thank you Mr Chair, I'll leave ...[intervention] MR MALAN Ms Cambanis, if it would help you, my note says, and I'm reading the Afrikaans "Early next month we will have a "eenheid" state or a Volkstaat in South Africa and I said that I will never accept an ANC government and I will not change on this" I think that was the context. MS CAMBANIS Thank you Mr Chair, I'll leave it at that then. Sir, then when you were being led you again referred to the evidence that General Constand Viljoen would have, the impression was that General Constand Viljoen supported this idea of the military option. MR SMIT That's correct. MS CAMBANIS Just for your comment Sir, Mr Viljoen's submission to the TRC - and I take this Mr Chair, from a submission dated the 19th of August 1996 at pages 25 and 26, where Mr Viljoen also talks or General Viljoen talks that "We realised that the mood amongst some of our supporting groups was volatile and that one action is that it could very well become uncontrollable. The demonstration at Kempton Park and the operation at Mmbatha showed that" And then it goes on to say: "We were at the cross-roads. In the end we saw little sense in more violence and we wanted reconciliation and that is when the agreement came to the constitutional principle of the Volkstaat and this all this happens in March, Sir, 1994, a month before the bombings took place" Do you accept that? MR SMIT I cannot comment on that. MS CAMBANIS Did you have knowledge of that in March 1994? MR SMIT According to my knowledge in March 1994 he would have supported us fully. MS CAMBANIS Was he not then participating in the elections Sir, General Viljoen? MR SMIT Not as far as I know. CHAIRPERSON But Mr Smit, did you not see in the streets his posters and placards? MR SMIT On the lampposts? MR SMIT No. CHAIRPERSON Not at all? MR SMIT No, I never saw his posters or placards. MS CAMBANIS Sir, I won't debate it to you but any South African who was driving through any town or village at that time would have known that General Viljoen was participating but you are the exception to that, is that - I put that to you. CHAIRPERSON Ms Cambanis, he can't be the only exception, there were other applicants who claimed the same. MS CAMBANIS Thank you Mr Chair. You together with certain applicants did not see that? MR SMIT That is correct. MS CAMBANIS Sir, when we were watching the video material we heard a preacher or a priest giving what appeared to be a sermon, you heard that? MR SMIT Correct. MS CAMBANIS And what was the purport ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON The preacher called it a sermon. MS CAMBANIS Was the purport of that, would you agree, that this Volkstaat is a mission from God, God's mission? God had spoken and said the Volkstaat should come, is that fair? MR SMIT No. MS CAMBANIS What would you say, what was the purport? MR SMIT The content of that sermon was to protect and to hold onto that which is already ours, that was the country. CHAIRPERSON To who did it belong? MR SMIT The people who live here. CHAIRPERSON Everybody? MR SMIT If you look at the history, the white people built this country the way it is today. CHAIRPERSON No, I didn't ask this, I asked to whom the country belonged at that stage. MR SMIT To the inhabitants of this country, the National Party Government. CHAIRPERSON Black people? MR SMIT Not according to me. CHAIRPERSON Who gave this country to the Nationalists? MR SMIT They worked for it. The National Party was in power for a number of years. ADV BOSMAN According to you, to whom does the land belong now? MR SMIT The ANC Government. MR MALAN Mr Smit, but your evidence was that the National Party was part of the enemy, and all the applicants' evidence was the same. MR SMIT That is correct because they gave the land away ...[intervention] MR MALAN Yes, they gave the land away, but they kept the land while the AWB and the National Party, on your evidence, did not sit on the same side. The National Party did not represent the Afrikaner, as the AWB thought. MR SMIT That's correct. MR MALAN Now why then, if it was the National Party's country, how did the AWB then God's command keep or hold onto the country? MR SMIT Let me put it differently. The country belonged to the whites. MR MALAN So if it was white communists it would have been alright? MR SMIT No, not at all. MR MALAN Thank you very much. MS CAMBANIS Sir, in summary, God's mission that it should go to white, it belonged to white Christians who spoke Afrikaans, that is who the land belongs to? MR SMIT I cannot testify about God's mission. CHAIRPERSON How did you think you can execute the word of God? MR SMIT In what circumstances? CHAIRPERSON Like that minister said. MR SMIT That minister pertinently pointed out from the bible that we have to fight what is ours and we have to hold onto it. CHAIRPERSON How would you then have executed this? MR SMIT By war, by disrupting the elections in order for it not to take place and to ensure that the land would stay in the hands of the whites. CHAIRPERSON And who would have done that, in the name of God? MR SMIT The right-wing. CHAIRPERSON Is that as the advocate or attorney described, as white Christian people who spoke Afrikaans? MR SMIT No, I'd like to move away from people who spoke Afrikaans, the AWB didn't only have Afrikaans speaking people but white Christian people. CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] MS CAMBANIS Thank you Mr Chair. Sir, but part of the constitution of the AWB talks about white Christianity, white racial purity being one of the objectives of the AWB, is that correct? MR SMIT That is correct. MS CAMBANIS And part of the motivation is based on your religious belief, isn't it? MR SMIT That's correct. MS CAMBANIS Specifically it says, 1.3 of your constitution "The national Christian living standards flowing from the Protestant religion guide the development of people's lives in all aspects of their lives" Is that correct? MR SMIT Could you just repeat it please? MS CAMBANIS "The national Christian living standards flowing from the Protestant religion guide the development of people's lives in all aspects of their lives" MR SMIT That's correct. MS CAMBANIS It goes on to talk about "The vow of "Blood River," confirmed at Paardekraal, November 1986" which is what you believe, is that not correct? MR SMIT Could you please repeat that again? MS CAMBANIS Sir, it talks about "The vow of "Blood River", confirmed at Paardekraal on 29 November 1986, consecrates the Volk's bond with God and he is honoured in eternal gratitude for his merciful deliverance" MR SMIT I'm sorry, the interpreter is interpreting extremely bad. I'm being honest. I cannot follow what you are saying. MS CAMBANIS Sir, unfortunately I only have a copy in English, can I perhaps pass this on to you? MR SMIT No, it's okay, speak English, it's fine. MS CAMBANIS "The vow of "Blood River", confirmed at Paardekraal on 29 November 1986, consecrates the Volk's bond with God and he is honoured in eternal gratitude for his merciful deliverance" MR SMIT That is correct. MS CAMBANIS And is it not correct that a large part of the motivation here is based on religious sentiment of the AWB? MR SMIT That's correct. MS CAMBANIS And just in summary, that pertains only, as the Chairperson has pointed out, not to language but to white Afrikaners? It is between God and white Afrikaners only. MR SMIT That's correct. MS CAMBANIS Sir, Mr Koekemoer who gave evidence at your trial, did you know him before? I know he was at the meeting with you, but did you know him before those meetings? MR SMIT I met him the evening when we arrived at Jan de Wet's farm. MS CAMBANIS And what did you know about his background, if anything? MR SMIT All that I knew is what I heard at the game farm, that he had something to do with explosives at some or other mine. MS CAMBANIS Do you perhaps know whether he trained anyone in the use of explosives? MR SMIT No. MS CAMBANIS When did you first find out that he was a police informer? MR SMIT In the hearing. MS CAMBANIS Mr Nico Prinsloo, was he present throughout - were you present throughout your trial, firstly? MR SMIT Yes. MS CAMBANIS Mr Nico Prinsloo, was he present throughout the trial? MR SMIT Yes. MS CAMBANIS Can I just have one moment please? Now Sir, according to your evidence, a large part of the police force was supportive of the AWB's constitution or what actually is your evidence, a large of the police were supporters of what? MR SMIT They were supporters of the right-wing. CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] MR SMIT I wouldn't say only the AWB, when I speak about the right-wing I mean the AWB and the Volksfront. CHAIRPERSON Did you belong only to the AWB? MR SMIT That's correct. CHAIRPERSON Then how would you know that there were policemen who were supporters of other right-wing organisations? MR SMIT It was mentioned during meetings. CHAIRPERSON By whom? MR SMIT By Eugene Terreblanche amongst others. CHAIRPERSON Did you believe everything that Mr Terreblanche said? MR SMIT At that stage yes. CHAIRPERSON And now? MR SMIT No. MS CAMBANIS Did you know whether any of the members present at Koesterfontein or at the game farm were currently at that time members of the police force, South African Police at that time? MR SMIT Yes. MS CAMBANIS Who were they? MR SMIT There was a set of twin brothers by the name of Coetzee. I'm not sure if they were twins, I know that they were involved with the permanent forces. MS CAMBANIS Sorry, that means they were active members of the South African Police at that time. And what was their role in the planning, the execution of these bombings? MR SMIT They didn't have any definitive role, they were there as the other members were there. MS CAMBANIS And as the other members, they knew about the planning of these bombs? MR SMIT That's correct, after the meeting on the stoep of the game farm. MS CAMBANIS Now Sir, did you know anything about any contact between any of these groupings and sections of the police at the time, April '94? MR SMIT Which contact do you mean? MS CAMBANIS Well, would the Coetzee "tweeling", would they have been there in their, in what capacity would they have been there at the farm? As police people? MR SMIT No, both of them were trained by me in the Ystergarde. MS CAMBANIS Now Sir, the Bree Street bomb for example, was just a couple of days before the election. At that time there was very tight police security in and around the main centres, do you agree with that? Do you recall that? MR SMIT Yes, that's correct. MS CAMBANIS Is there any reason why the plans went ahead with no fear of detection, roadblocks or so on by the police, that you can tell this Committee? If you know. If you don't know it's ... MR SMIT We knew about the risk but the work had to be done. MS CAMBANIS Thank you very much Mr Chairman, no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS CAMBANIS CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR LANDMAN Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Smit, why did Nico Prinsloo want the 4 x 4's? MR SMIT Firstly, when we were on the game farm there were many dirt roads, it was a very difficult terrain to move over in normal vehicles and that is why we needed the 4 x 4 vehicles. MR LANDMAN No that's in the "eerste plek", were there any other reasons? MR SMIT No. MR LANDMAN Was there any intention of building bombs in these 4 x 4 vehicles? MR SMIT No. MR LANDMAN How far was the game farm the AWB headquarters, in kilometres? MR SMIT I'm not certain how far it was, approximately 50 to 80 kilometres. MR LANDMAN And how long does it take to drive there, to Ventersdorp from the game farm? MR SMIT 45 minutes. MR LANDMAN And how many times did Mr Prinsloo, that Sunday, the Sunday that you were on the game farm, how often did he make that trip? MR SMIT I can't answer that. MR LANDMAN More than once? MR SMIT I doubt it. MR LANDMAN Do you think it was only once? MR SMIT It could be so. MR LANDMAN When he came back from that trip did he tell you where he had been? MR SMIT Not to me personally. MR LANDMAN Did he tell you as a group? MR SMIT Not that I can remember. MR LANDMAN Did anybody ask him where he had been? MR SMIT Not that I can remember. MR LANDMAN Did he tell you what his instructions were from the AWB headquarters? MR SMIT No. MR LANDMAN Did he go into town alone? MR SMIT There was one occasion, I can't remember on which day, that he and General van der Merwe went together. MR LANDMAN Was that on the Sunday? MR SMIT I can't remember. MR LANDMAN Did Nico Prinsloo ever admit that he knew anything about the Bree Street bomb? MR SMIT Not to me. MR LANDMAN Thank you, I've got no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR LANDMAN CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR KRIEL Thank you Mr Chair, there's just one or two matters. Mr Smit, as I understand you were part of the leadership on the game farm, is that correct? MR SMIT Yes, I was in control of the guards. MR KRIEL And when Prinsloo arrived there and the meeting was held behind closed doors, you were part of that meeting? MR SMIT That's the correct. MR KRIEL And that was the first time that you heard that you were to plant bombs or set bombs off? MR SMIT That's correct. MR KRIEL So as part of leadership, you heard for the first time on Sunday evening the 24th? MR SMIT That's correct. MR KRIEL At that stage did Nico Prinsloo tell you anything about the Bree Street bomb which had taken place earlier that day? MR SMIT No. MR KRIEL Would you agree with me that Mr Terreblanche, on the video which we watched, clearly indicated what the AWB had done in the past, that is what they had done, that's how many people, they'd attacked this, they'd done that, but during the meeting, the closed meeting of Sunday evening absolutely no mention was made of the Bree Street bombing? MR SMIT Not that I can remember. MR KRIEL However you were there? MR SMIT That's correct. MR KRIEL You said that you resided in Vereeniging, Vanderbijlpark? MR SMIT That's correct. MR KRIEL That was part of the old area? MR SMIT That's correct. MR KRIEL How long did you live there? MR SMIT Four years. MR KRIEL And before that? MR SMIT Pretoria. MR KRIEL So therefore you knew the PWV area? MR SMIT Yes, that's correct. MR KRIEL You knew where Commissioner Street was in Johannesburg? MR SMIT No. I know about the street but I wouldn't be able to tell you exactly where it is. MR KRIEL Commissioner Street. MR KRIEL Therefore you wouldn't know where Bree Street is? MR SMIT I know about the street but I don't know how to get there. MR KRIEL Where is Bree Street? MR SMIT It's behind the Supreme Court. MR KRIEL And you knew that at the time of those meetings? MR SMIT That's correct. MR KRIEL Very well. Koesterfontein, did you know on that Sunday evening who was based at Koesterfontein? MR SMIT What do you mean by that? MR KRIEL I mean the persons who were at Koesterfontein on Sunday evening. MR SMIT Well I knew that Koper Myburgh lived there, it was his farm. I knew that Cliff Barnard was with him. MR KRIEL And who else? MR SMIT And the so-called Koekemoer. MR KRIEL Only those three? MR SMIT That I knew of. MR KRIEL Thank you Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KRIEL CROSS-EXAMINATION BY ADV PRIOR Chairperson, just one or two aspects. Mr Smit, do you know Fred Rundle? MR SMIT That's correct. ADV PRIOR Apparently during the criminal proceedings he testified in order to mitigate his sentence, is that correct? MR SMIT Not when I was present. ADV PRIOR Didn't take any further interest after your conviction? MR SMIT Sir, I also have a job to see to. MR BRACHER Just answer the question. MR SMIT No, I wasn't involved in it any further. ADV PRIOR According to a newspaper report of 2nd April 1996, on page 12 of Annexure A, for these proceedings, Mr Rundle was called as a witness and according to the report under oath he said that the AWB never gave instructions to members to plant bombs in order to disrupt the elections. MR SMIT As far as I know I cannot testify according to his evidence. ADV PRIOR Is that surprising to you? MR SMIT Definitely. ADV PRIOR That on he on behalf of the applicants, during the criminal proceedings, that he testified this? MR SMIT Well it is surprising to me now. I think that he would have incriminated himself in a number of matters if he had admitted. ADV PRIOR Even before the trial on April 26, 1994 in Business Day, on behalf of the AWB, Rundle also denied that the bomb explosions could be ascribed to the AWB. MR SMIT I can't give evidence regarding that. ADV PRIOR Is it your evidence that Mr Prinsloo had direct instructions for the AWB to plant these bombs? MR SMIT From Mr Eugene Terreblanche and the fellow generals in staff. ADV PRIOR As I understand the issue Rundle would have liaised with Terreblanche, he couldn't simply make utterances. He would have been briefed or told what to announce to the world. He couldn't personally make any kind of announcement, he would be speaking on behalf of the AWB, is that not so? MR SMIT That's correct, but I could also ask other people to lie on my behalf. ADV PRIOR One final aspect. The preparations for the manufacturing of the bombs and the transportation of the bombs, is it your evidence that for the first time, regarding you, you came to hear of it, on the game farm? MR SMIT That's correct. ADV PRIOR And you were the person who would have asked: "How are we going to build the bomb and what is our equipment?" MR SMIT No, I didn't ask that, I was present when we discussed it. ADV PRIOR For the first time? MR SMIT For the first time. ADV PRIOR Did you know that they were going to use Mr Terreblanche's trailer? MR SMIT No, I heard about that for the first time in the meeting. ADV PRIOR And a grass roller which was on the farm purely by coincidence? MR SMIT I have no knowledge of a grass roller. ADV PRIOR What contribution did the Natalers have in the whole affair? MR SMIT They were members of the rest of the group. ADV PRIOR Why were the proceedings at Koesterfontein so secretive, or kept secret from the other people on the game farm? MR SMIT Well my honest opinion is that any military action which was to follow should be kept secret until a certain stage. ADV PRIOR And the statements made by the AWB which appear on page 13 of Annexure A, that according to Mr Rundle once again, this was on the 22nd of April 1994, and I quote "We are not planning to act aggressively, however if our people are attacked, the attackers will get to do with the entire power of the AWB. Furthermore, no we are not going to disrupt the elections. What should we do to achieve this, physically prevent people from reaching the ballot boxes? We're not going to do that because we are not kaffirs" MR SMIT I cannot testify regarding his evidence. ADV PRIOR Is it not true that this small group at Koesterfontein had their own agenda? MR SMIT That's not true, that had absolutely nothing to do with the agenda of the AWB, not at all. ADV PRIOR It would appear as such. MR SMIT But that's your opinion. ADV PRIOR Mr Abie Fourie said that regarding him it was more patrolling and the protection of farms and farmers and so forth. MR SMIT That was the initial call-up instruction to get people there. ADV PRIOR When did it change? MR SMIT On the game farm during the closed meeting. ADV PRIOR On the Sunday evening? MR SMIT Well I talk - probably the Sunday evening, when it was said that we would disrupt the elections. ADV PRIOR And according to you Mr Prinsloo has to assume the entire responsibility for that decision? MR SMIT He gave the direct order. ADV PRIOR Without that you would have continued with the ordinary patrolling? MR SMIT That's correct. ADV PRIOR Thank you Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV PRIOR MS VAN DER WALT No further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS VAN DER WALT ADV BOSMAN Mr Smit, were you present here during the previous session of this hearing? MR SMIT No, not at all. ADV BOSMAN Can you tell at which stage you went home from the game farm? MR SMIT The afternoon of the 26th of April 1994. ADV BOSMAN And when were you arrested? MR SMIT In Pretoria. I went to my parent's house, not to my own house. ADV BOSMAN Why did you go there? MR SMIT I didn't have any further interests there. ADV BOSMAN Didn't you think that the war should continue? MR SMIT I felt that it would be continued on the morning of the 27th of April. ADV BOSMAN And where did you think you would be on that morning? MR SMIT We would go back to the shooting range outside Rustenberg. MS GCABASHE Can I just get this right, you were arrested in Pretoria, where were you arrested? MR SMIT That's correct. MS GCABASHE One other question. As part of the strategic planning group or that group of leaders, how did you plan to co-ordinate your effort with the efforts of the people at Koesterfontein for instance, and the other "punte" that you knew to be operational points? You know, where others had gathered to do what you were supposed to be doing. How were you going to co-ordinate your activities? MR SMIT That would have been co-ordinated by means of radio communication. MS GCABASHE But your radio didn't work, you have told us that. MR SMIT Yes, that's what I just said. MS GCABASHE So how would you know that one of the other groups had not targeted, for instance Johannesburg Airport? MR SMIT Personally I wouldn't have known that. MS GCABASHE But you were part of the general planning around the bombing? I just use that as one example. I'm just visualising this, your group could be arriving to bomb Bree Street, any particular place, Germiston, another group could be arriving to do exactly the same thing, you have no radio contact with head office, how would you avoid chaos in your own ranks? MR SMIT As far as I know our order was to do with the Rand, the North Western East Rand, so the other groups and the other members and the other leaders had their own orders. MS GCABASHE And just to get this absolutely right, at no stage did Terreblanche come and visit you, either at Koesterfontein, at the game farm or at the shooting range, is that correct? MR SMIT That's correct. MS GCABASHE And would I be correct to say again that you certainly, the last time you saw Mr Terreblanche where he was giving you instructions as to where you were from as a people and where you were going to as a people, was on the 2nd of April at that gathering at Trim Park? MR SMIT No. MS GCABASHE Just help right, so when did you see him, between the 2nd of April and the 24th of April, when did you see him and what was he saying to you in particular? MR SMIT He didn't say anything specifically to me, but I did see him after we had moved up to Ventersdorp when we were protecting headquarters and staying on Cliff Barnard's farm. So therefore I did see him but I didn't speak to him. MS GCABASHE Now again just explain that to me because, just give me a date, just to help me understand and picture this, a date and what he would have been saying to the people whom you may have been with. MR SMIT Let me give you a background. Approximately, I'm not sure about the dates, but let's say the 19th of April we were called up, we went to Ventersdorp and we then went to Cliff Barnard's farm and our orders were to protect the AWB headquarters. We didn't speak to anybody else in an open meeting where there were other people. Some of us may have spoken to members while we were guarding the AWB headquarters, but personally I can't offer you any evidence. MS GCABASHE So as far as you are concerned, the changed of policy or the change of function, to that of disrupting the elections, came from Nico Prinsloo on the Sunday evening, before that all you were told to do was guard? MR SMIT That's correct. MS GCABASHE Thank you very much. CHAIRPERSON Mr Smit, did you believe the church minister? MR SMIT I think all of us believed at that stage. CHAIRPERSON Who is: "all of us"? MR SMIT Any person who listened to a sermon in a church service or during a meeting believed what the minister had said. CHAIRPERSON Tell me, is this the first time today that you have come to speak the truth? MR SMIT That's correct. CHAIRPERSON Did you make any attempt to get to those people who had lost their husbands or their wives or their children as a result of what happened? MR SMIT That is why I am here today. CHAIRPERSON No, the question is whether you made the attempt. MR SMIT Yes. CHAIRPERSON When? MR SMIT When I went to the legal representatives out of my own free will. CHAIRPERSON Did you go and speak to them? MR SMIT With any of the applicants? CHAIRPERSON No, with those who were injured. MR SMIT No, not at all. CHAIRPERSON If you were to have such an opportunity would you make use of that? MR SMIT I believe so. CHAIRPERSON Even though these people may be black people? MR SMIT That's correct. CHAIRPERSON What is your attitude today towards the Boere Volkstaat? MR SMIT It was never realised and it will never be realised. CHAIRPERSON Well was that not one of the hopes that you cherished? MR SMIT It was. CHAIRPERSON And now? MR SMIT No. CHAIRPERSON Are you still a member of the AWB? MR SMIT No. CHAIRPERSON What would happen if they came tomorrow and said: "Let's take up arms again and fight the war"? MR SMIT There would be no way in which I would. CHAIRPERSON And what if that minister gave another sermon in church? MR SMIT I wouldn't believe in it. CHAIRPERSON And what is your attitude towards black people today? MR SMIT We all live together in the same country. CHAIRPERSON Yes, we know that, but what is your attitude? MR SMIT We are all citizens of the country, you do your bit and I'll do mine. CHAIRPERSON Can't we all live together? MR SMIT Well we all live together in the same country. CHAIRPERSON No, as a nation? MR SMIT We are not the same nation. CHAIRPERSON Aren't we the South African nation? MR SMIT That's correct. CHAIRPERSON So then why can't we all live together as a nation? MR SMIT Because we are not a nation, we are all inhabitants of one country. CHAIRPERSON Don't you see that there might be an opportunity for all of us to live together as one? MR SMIT As I've said, we will never be able to be one nation but we can all live together in one country. CHAIRPERSON Don't you even want to try to live together as one nation? MR SMIT No. CHAIRPERSON Even some of the applicants said that they would be prepared to try to live together as one nation. MR SMIT The only way to have one nation is to rid the nation of hybrids. CHAIRPERSON Well I'm not going to debate the scientific aspect behind that. You see, we are all here in order to determine the truth behind certain problems and the notion, or to achieve the notion of one nation and that is why I will once again ask you, and I'm not speaking of science here, are you not prepared to at least make an attempt to contribute to the achievement of one nation in the country. MR SMIT Well we have been under the government of this one nation for four years. MR MALAN Might I just follow up on this point please. According to my historical background, terms might be used differently and incorrectly. As I understand you, do you still see the Afrikaner as a volk? MR SMIT Yes, as you have the Zulu nation or the Xhosa nation. MR MALAN As a homogenous ethnic volk. MR SMIT That's correct. MR MALAN What do understand under nation? MR SMIT One nation. MR MALAN You understand it similarly? MR SMIT That's correct. MR MALAN Well then if I were to say to you, let us assume that the definition of one nation denotes all those living within the same country's borders, under the same lay, in the same political arena, all of those who commit themselves to the same constitution and the same legislative rules, if that indicates a nation, how would you feel about that? MR SMIT I would agree with it. MR MALAN Therefore, what is your opinion about co-habitation as a nation, according to this definition, under one constitution in one country, and what would your role and connection for the future be, given there are other people who are all part of this nation but not of the volk? MR SMIT Well as I've said, for the last four years I'm doing my bit for this so-called nation, but - I misunderstood it from the beginning then. MR MALAN Do you everybody in South Africa at the moment as South Africans? MR SMIT That's correct. MR MALAN Who are here now and who will be here in future? MR SMIT That's correct. MR MALAN Under the same constitution? MR SMIT That's correct. MR MALAN In the same political process? MR SMIT That's correct. MR MALAN How do you feel about it? MR SMIT It's right. MR MALAN Do you feel it's right? MR SMIT Yes. MR MALAN Do you feel positive about it? MR SMIT That's correct. MR MALAN Do you see any kind of future underneath this approach? MR SMIT Yes, that's correct. MR MALAN And is your commitment 100%? In other words, you will not prepare to break down or disrupt and say: "I don't want this person to be part of this country, I don't want this person to have his political say", or "that person of a certain colour or race or culture"? MR SMIT That's correct. MR MALAN Well then will you please return and answer the Chairperson's question within that context, and say how you feel about the future of this country and everybody living together in this country. MR SMIT It could work. MR MALAN Do you think it will work? MR SMIT I don't think it's up to me to decide. MR MALAN But you will do your best to be part of it? MR SMIT That's correct. CHAIRPERSON Do I understand you correctly then, that you are prepared to live with the concept that there are different nations within the country? MR SMIT Yes, that's correct. CHAIRPERSON You see that's not what I was talking about. I was talking about a non-racial country, where there are no nations but only one South African nation. Are you prepared to participate in that? MR SMIT Chairperson, I would just like to make one point very clear. Do you mean that if I marry a black woman, our children after that will be part of one nation? Based upon that my answer is no. CHAIRPERSON But that's your own personal preference, I'm not talking about marriage. MR SMIT Then I don't understand. CHAIRPERSON I'm talking of human rights. I'm talking about people accepting, whether they be black, white or whatever. MR SMIT Yes, that's correct, we'll accept one another if every nation can have its own culture and its own language within the country. CHAIRPERSON You are excused. WITNESS EXCUSED