amntrans TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMSION, AMNESTY HEARING 1998-09-17 JOHANNESBURG 4 NKOSINATHI MPUMELELO MVIJANE https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=52872&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1998/98091418_jhb_1johanb4.htm CHAIRPERSON We're now in session. We are proceeding with the matter of Mvijane which stood down yesterday afternoon. For the purposes of the record, it's Thursday, the 17th of September 1998. There are two applications before this session of the Amnesty Committee. It's the application of Mr Mvijane, number AM7355/94 and the application of Mr Khwankwa, reference number AM3868/96. Presiding, Denzil Potgieter, together with Advocate Sigodi and Mr Lax. Representing the Commission, Mr Mapoma, please put yourself on record. MR MAPOMA Thank you, Chairperson. I'm Zuko Mapoma, the evidence leader for the Commission. CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much. We have been notified, it was brought to our attention that arrangements were made yesterday afternoon and some of that discussion with one of the family members is on record and it was brought to our attention that Miss Cambanis was approached with a possible view to assisting the next-of-kin of the deceased in the application. We are aware of the fact that she has been consulting with the next-of-kin and she is present at the proceedings. Perhaps, Mr Mapoma, just for the purposes of the record you can perhaps just confirm and put on record the position of Miss Cambanis. MS CAMBANIS Thank you, Mr Chair. I'm assisted here by Miss Nomsa Magida. We have, it is correct, consulted with the family members present this morning. In essence, regarding the procedure, they persist in their opposition to this application on the grounds that it is neither politically motivated in the sense that this is a continuation of criminal activities of the applicants. And secondly, on the ground of disclosure, that on the papers before this Committee there are material contradictions in the versions and the truth is not being told on the papers before the Committee. We have then consulted with family members, together with Mr Mapoma, and they understand that I have not had opportunity to familiarise myself with the papers to the same extent as my learned friend has, and that he's in fact in a better position to oppose the application at this stage than I am and they are therefore satisfied that he continue acting on their behalf in opposing both applications. Thank you, Mr Chair. CHAIRPERSON Miss Cambanis, thank you very much. Can I just express our appreciation for making yourself available at very short notice, and for assisting at least in facilitating the hearing of this particular application. We are indeed indebted to you and to your colleague. Thank you very much. MS CAMBANIS Thank you, Mr Chairman. May we be excused. CHAIRPERSON Yes, ...(inaudible) MS CAMBANIS Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Well, that takes care of that. Mr Mbandazayo, would you want to just go on record first? MR MBANDAZAYO Thank you, Mr Chairman. My name is Lungelo Mbandazayo. I'm representing the applicants in this matter. Thank you, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much. Mr Mapoma, is there any other preliminary issue that you wish to deal with before we proceed with the application itself? MR MAPOMA Mr Chairman, save to confirm what Miss Cambanis has said, I don't have any other matter to raise at this point. CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Mapoma. Mr Mbandazayo? MR MBANDAZAYO Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, there's not much except to say that as there are the second applicant, I'm did not manage to take down an affidavit when it comes to him. What I will do is that he will, after this first applicant, come and confirm and then he will be subject to questions thereafter on whatever issue which is relevant to this matter. I will handle the matter in that manner, Mr Chairman. Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mbandazayo, thank you. In fact in anticipation we also know that you had taken the instruction to represent Mr Khwankwa also on very short notice. So we are indebted to you as well in that regard. Do you want to proceed with the application of Mr Mvijane first, and you want him sworn in? MR MBANDAZAYO Yes, Mr Chairman, he can be sworn in. MR LAX Thank you, Chairperson. Mr Mvijane, would you please stand. NKOSINATHI MPUMELELO MVIJANE (sworn states) MR LAX Sworn in, Chairperson. You may be seated, Mr Mvijane. CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Lax. Mr Mbandazayo? EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr Mvijane, the affidavit in front of you is also before the Committee. Do you confirm that this affidavit was made by yourself and you abide by its contents? MR MVIJANE Yes, I do. I asked somebody to write it down for me, a person who understands English better, and I explained it to him, then he wrote it down. MR MBANDAZAYO Mr Mvijane, I'm not talking about your application, I'm talking about the paper in front of you. MR MVIJANE Yes, I do confirm that whatever is contained therein is from me. MR MBANDAZAYO Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, may I proceed then to read the affidavit as usual? CHAIRPERSON Yes, please do. MR MBANDAZAYO "I, the undersigned, Nkosinathi Mpumelelo Mvijane, do hereby make an oath and states that I'm the applicant in this matter. The facts to which I deposed are true and correct and within my personal knowledge, unless the context states otherwise. I was born in Soweto, Gauteng on the 16th of March 1972 and I grew up in the Gauteng Province. I left school at standard six due to financial problem. I joined PAC in 1991 and I was recruited by Moss ..." Mr Chairman, the spelling of Moss will be a double "s". Thank you. "...who was an APLA cadre. At the time he recruited me I was just an ordinary supporter of PAC. Moss recruited myself Lulamile and Doctor. He taught us how to handle explosive and weapons." Mr Mvijane, can you, with regard to that paragraph, tell the Committee, before you were recruited by Moss what were you doing? What were your activities? MR MVIJANE Before I got to know Moss, I grew up being a delinquent and I was involved in gangsterism and stealing cars. I even got arrested for car theft as well as rape, two counts of rape. As time went on Moss came to me. It was the first time I saw him. It was myself, Lulamile as well as Doctor when we were visited by Moss. We were smoking dagga when he got to my place, that is where I was staying with my mother. We were quite surprised as to what his visit entailed, but he wanted us to share the joint with him, that is the dagga joint. We gave it to him. He also requested us to give him some more of the dagga because he was not satisfied with the one that he got from us. We explained to him that it was finished. Then he gave us a R50,00 note to buy some more dagga. Lulamile Kkwankwa took the money and he went to buy some more dagga. Lulamile Khwankwa came back with the dagga and we smoked and also bought food with the money from Moss. And Moss at that stage started asking me as to which political organisations I belonged to or we belonged to. I told him that we were not involved in any politics, but I had a desire to join or support the PAC. And he asked me as to what we were doing idling in the location. I told him that I was involved in gangsterism and he explained to me that it was not a good idea for me to belong to a gangster or a group of criminals, and he further asked me to stop being a member of the gangster. I agreed with him, because what he was saying to me was quite true and that's when I realised the mistakes that I had committed before as a growing young man, and I was recruited by Moss. He asked me as to whether I was able to use a firearm and I told him that I was not able to because I had never handled a firearm before. He asked me whether I knew how to handle an AK47. I told him that I'd never seen an AK. And he asked me as to whether I had a desire to see or handle it. I agreed with him and said I wanted to see the AK47. He further explained to me that he does not have a place to stay and he wanted to stay with me. But I explained it to him that we had hired the place which was not our own place and we shared the house with the people who stayed there, that is the owners of the house. So I was not able to give him a place of abode. Maybe if I could get my own place we could share. I talked to the owners of the house who explained that if he was not a problematic person he could join us in that house. So we stayed together with Moss, though I don't remember as to what the date was when we started staying together and what month it was. I stayed with Moss and he let me into the secrets of the PAC and also made me politically aware and conscious of the political climate that existed at that time. He told me that the enemies were police, soldiers, as well as all the other people who were working for the previous regime. He explained to me that he wanted myself, Lulamile as well as Doctor to be members of the PAC who were going to fight for the black nation against the oppressive Government rather than being criminals. MR MBANDAZAYO Thank you. Mr Chairman, I will proceed to paragraph 6 as he has already covered also paragraph 5. "At the time he had two AK47s, Makarov pistol and two stick grenades. He told us PAC and APLA do not have enough funds to buy weapons. It is therefore going to be the duty of the unit to repossess arms from the State, that is SADF, SAP, traffic officers and any other law enforcement agents and also from the white people who were benefitting from the oppressive system of apartheid. Moss told us that the South African Defence Force, SAP and traffic officer were the main pillars of apartheid and they have to be attacked and render the system of apartheid unworkable because the whites will no longer have confidence to the State if the people who are supposed to protect them are unable to protect themselves. Moss told us that he was reporting his action to the director of operations, Leklapa Mpampahlele. He told us that it will be our duty that at night we will patrol the street looking for police to attack them and repossess their weapons. On the night of the 19th August 1991 we patrolled the street looking for the target. It was Moss armed with AK47, myself armed with Makarov, Lulamile armed with Chinese stick grenade and also Doctor armed with Chinese stick grenade. We could not find the target until in the morning and Moss ordered us to go to our respective places. Moss and Lulamile went to their respective places and in the case of Moss he went to my home. Myself, I accompanied Doctor to his home. On our way we saw the traffic officer in the street and we decided to disarm him. I told the traffic officer not to move and he tried to draw his pistol and I shot him. Doctor took the pistol and we ran away. On the way we met Lulamile who asked us what was happening and we told him what had happened, and I asked him to go to the place of the incident and check whether there are no people who saw us. We went to my home where we made a report to Moss. Lulamile came back and told us that there was a young boy who was talking to the police and told them who shot the traffic officer. We then decided that we must leave the place and we left with Zinzeni Zulu ...(intervention) MR MVIJANE Sorry. There is a mistake somewhere somehow. It's not Zinzeni Zulu, it's Mduzeni Zulu. That is the boy who stayed in the same yard where I was staying. MR MBANDAZAYO Thank you, Mr Chairman. Zinzeni Zulu, Mr Chairman, there was a mistake. It's another Zulu who testified in court. That's Zinzeni that one. This one was Mbuzeni Zulu, the one in this. MR MVIJANE ...[no Englsih translation] MR MBANDAZAYO Yes, it's Mbuzeni. It's Mbuzeni this one, Mr Chairman. Thank you. "We then decided that we must leave the place and we left with Mbuzeni Zulu who promised to provide us with accommodation. We went to Klipspruit in the house of his relative. We asked the owner to keep the Makarov and the traffic officer's gun. After some time we saw the police and traffic officers' vehicles stopping outside. We decided to shoot them, but before we did that Moss noticed that there was a woman and it was my mother. We then ran away through the back door. We went to Meadowlands and we slept there, and the following day Moss left to attend another APLA cadre who was suffering from malaria. We also went to Pimville, that is Klipspruit, to take the trafficker's pistol and on our way back we boarded a minibus taxi and it was stopped by the police and we were arrested. We were assaulted by the police and we had to say something to save our skins. Hence we made statements which were not, Mr Chairman, perfectly correct." That's a typographical error. "Which were not perfectly correct as we wanted to satisfy them." Now, Mr Mvijane, can you take the Commission through the process. What happened after you were arrested and assaulted? What happened thereafter? MR MVIJANE After the arrest, the police retrieved the gun that I had thrown under the car seat. They realised that this was the gun that belonged to the traffic officer, and they asked us whose gun this was. Nobody owned up to the gun and that's when they started assaulting the taxi driver who referred them to the passengers and said, "You should ask the people at the back", and there's another guy who was assaulted and he was innocent, but he was just sitting in front of me, that is the seat in front of mine. The person was assaulted until such time that he told the police and he pointed me out as the person who had put the gun underneath the chair and that was true, I'm the one who put that gun underneath the seat. They also told the police that there were the three of us. They identified us and the three of us were taken and put into a blue Jetta. It was a police car. We were taken to a certain police station. I'm not able to distinguish between the Moroka Police Station and the Jabulani Police Station, but we were taken to one of those police stations. There we were further assaulted and told to tell the police as to where we got this firearm. We ended up confessing and explaining to the police that the gun had been sent to us or we had been sent by Moss to go and get the gun from a certain traffic officer, and the police wanted to know as to what position Moss was in or what was he to send us to go and get a gun. We explained to the police that he was a member of APLA and they required us to do a pointing out. We proceeded to Pimville. I knew that we could get Moss at a certain place and I pointed the place out. I further requested the police to take me out of the car because I did not want to be seen pointing out and I knew that something was going to happen when we got to Moss' place or Moss' hide-out. And the police were quite shocked by my statement and they never stopped in front of the hide-out, but they went the opposite direction and parked at a certain corner, and they told me that they were not going to release me, they opened up the boot of the car and put myself and Lulamile Khwankwa inside the boot. And the car was started and went slowly down the street and stopped at a certain house. I could hear them shutting the doors after them as they were getting out of the car, together with Doctor. After a few minutes, though I'm not able to say how many minutes, I could hear gunfire which I could identify as coming from an AK47 and there were some bullets that hit the car as well as the boot of the car whilst we were inside, and I started praying inside the boot because I was scared to death. And I was scared that Moss would probably throw a handgrenade in the car. The gunshots went on and we could hear the police gunfire, because at that stage I was able to differentiate between an AK47 and the police guns. After some relative quiet I heard a big or loud explosion which I thought to be a grenade. Thereafter I heard some AK gunfire from a distance and at that stage I thought or realised that he was probably running away and they were chasing him, that's why the gunfire was getting fainter and fainter. I realised thereafter that I had been shot on the leg and the police threw me out of the boot. There was a black policeman who is a Sotho speaker, who said, "Here's your person, he's dead now". And the police dragged me and when they dragged me I saw Doctor lying in front of the gate. At that stage I do not know whether he was dead or alive. They dragged me into the ambulance together with one black policeman. I was taken to the Baragwanath Hospital. When I got to Baragwanath there were already policemen there. They were not more than 10. Some were lying on the stretcher, quite a number of them. The police with whom I arrived told the nursing sisters at Baragwanath that these are the people who are killing the police and the nurses asked me as to why we were killing police. I denied any knowledge of that allegation. I was treated by the nursing sister. I was treated with a certain spray or certain medication and given some tablets. I was dressed and transported to the Kliptown Police Station. I spent the night there. The following morning I was assaulted. I was kicked and I was bleeding at that stage. I tried to put on my left shoe. My foot was swollen. I could not wear any shoes and I was taken to the offices at the second floor. That's where I came across some women from the house or the hide-out where Moss was. As to why they were there I have no idea, but we were put in vacant rooms. Murder and Robbery police from Protea were also present. They asked me from my ...[end of tape]. That is when the severest of the assaults started. We were taken into a Husky police minibus, a blue one. We were transported to the Protea Police Station where we were put into a certain hall. There were a lot of policemen there, as well as traffic officers. We were questioned and assaulted at the same time. They also used some wheel spanners to assault us. I ultimately had to admit that I shot the traffic officer. They wanted to know as to who took the gun. I told them that it was Doctor, but they did not believe me, they said I was talking "shit", and I was actually painting Doctor black because he could not speak for himself, he was dead. I ended up saying it was Lulamile who had taken the traffic cop's gun. A question from the police with regard to money came. They also questioned us about a wristwatch. I never answered any questions with regard to that because we never robbed the traffic officer. Even if I knew something about it, I wouldn't have admitted it because I had been a criminal before and have been involved in criminal activity. We were taken, that is myself and Lulamile who had also confessed to having taken the gun, we were put into different cells. A few days thereafter I was taken. I was tubed, electrocuted so that I could submit a statement to the police. The first statement that I submitted was true, but in the middle of the statement they rejected whatever was said. They kept on saying that I was talking "shit", and I was going to speak the truth. That's when I started lying because I wanted to satisfy them as well as save my life, because we were being assaulted severely. In that statement I also said I had shot a traffic officer because I had been promised some money and they asked me as to who promised me money. I told them that Moss had promised us a sum of R1 800 for killing the traffic officer. When I told that lie I could see that the police were not satisfied that I was a hired assassin. I was taken to the Brixton Murder and Robbery Squad where they told me that I was going to submit a statement to the Chief Magistrate. He was a white person and I don't know whether he was an Englishman or an Afrikaans-speaking person. This person reprimanded me that I was to speak the truth and only the truth. MR MBANDAZAYO Thank you. Thank you, Mr Mvijane. Mr Chairman, that's the evidence of the applicant. Thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MBANDAZAYO CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Mbandazayo. Thank you. Mr Mapoma, have you got any questions? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA Yes, Chairperson, thank you. Mr Mvijane, in actual fact at which standard did you leave school? MR MVIJANE Standard six. MR MAPOMA Is it not correct that in court, in the criminal court, for the murder of the deceased person in this matter you said that you left standard two? MR MVIJANE Yes, that is correct, I did say that, because whatever I was saying in court was not true. I was telling lies in court. And I was even denying the crime or the offence itself. MR MAPOMA I understand that, but why did you - what was the reason for you to lie and say you left at standard two and not standard six? For that particular lying, what was the reason? What was the reason? MR MVIJANE All in all I was denying the statement that I had made to the Chief Magistrate, because what was said to me or the question that was posed to me was whether I could read. In order to be able to avoid the statement or the Chief Magistrate's statement, I said I had got out of school at standard two level. I was avoiding the statement or being accused of having been able to read the statement that I submitted before. MR MAPOMA Now, you have told the Committee that before you were recruited by Moss you were an ordinary member of the PAC. Do you remember that? MR MVIJANE No, I never said that. I never said I was a member of the PAC. I was a supporter, but not a card carrying member. MR MAPOMA Okay, thank you. I'm sorry, I made a mistake there. And as a supporter of the PAC you were a gangster, is that correct? MR MVIJANE When I grew up I was a delinquent or a problematic child. That I cannot deny. MR MAPOMA Are you saying you were both a gangster, yet a supporter of the PAC? MR MVIJANE That is not correct. I was a member of the gangster. I wished to support the PAC, but at that time I was mainly concentrating on criminal activities. I didn't know much about the PAC at that stage. MR MAPOMA What did you mean when you said you were not interested in politics when you met Moss whereas you were a PAC supporter? MR MVIJANE I did not say I was not interested in politics, but what I explained to Moss was that I was not involved in any political group at that stage, but I had a desire to be a member of the PAC. That is what I said. MR MAPOMA Now, when you shot the deceased, were you instructed by any PAC member to do that? MR MVIJANE As I had already explained before, that was my duty. I had already been told to identify the enemies who were oppressing the Africans and killing them. So, I was a soldier and I was carrying out my duty. When we saw this traffic officer we discussed it amongst ourselves with Doctor, that here is the target, now all that is left with us is to carry the duty. We got the traffic officer and explained to the traffic officer or told him not to move. We wanted his gun. But what made me shoot him was that his hand was rushing to his pocket and I realised that the was going to shoot first. MR MAPOMA Were you a member of APLA? MR MVIJANE That is correct. MR MAPOMA When did you join APLA? MR MVIJANE During 1991, even though I'm not sure as to the date or the month. MR MAPOMA Who was your commander in APLA? MR MVIJANE The one I was receiving instructions from was Moss. He was a cadre, but I'm not sure as to his surname and his other names. MR MAPOMA And you say Moss is the commander from whom you take all the orders? MR MVIJANE That is correct. MR MAPOMA But you were not instructed by Moss to kill the deceased, is that so? MR MVIJANE I've already explained it, that I had been given instructions before that we should identify enemies. That was my primary duty as a soldier of the PAC or APLA, that I should identify these people. These were soldiers, traffic officers, as well as police who were working with the previous system. That's why when I saw this traffic officer I identified him as a target. I attacked him. I explained that before. MR MAPOMA No, what I want to understand, let me make this clear to you. I understand that APLA had a policy to attack certain targets, but what I want to find out from you, were you instructed by Moss specifically to kill the deceased? Remember you said that you were carrying - all orders which you were carrying you received from Moss as an APLA trained cadre and you were not instructed by Moss to go and kill the deceased. What is your explanation to that? MR MVIJANE I will repeat myself, I've said it before that anyone who works under or supported the previous Government, that is the police, the traffic officers, the soldiers were enemies to the PAC. So when I identified a traffic officer I decided that we should attack him and retrieve his gun. MR MAPOMA Naturally the deceased was not the first policeman for you to see, isn't it so? MR MAPOMA At that time he was the first person that we met who supported the previous regime. MR MAPOMA No, no, what I'm saying is that after you received your orders from Moss the deceased was not the first policeman for you to see. You had seen other policemen, you have not killed them. If you are saying what you did was a carrying out of a general order from Moss, why did you kill this one? He was not the first person for you to see, he was not the first policeman for you to see. MR MVIJANE I'll explain in this manner. Anyone who was working under the previous Government, when I was accompanying Doctor this very person that we are referring to or the deceased is the first person that I saw that we identified as the target, that is the traffic officer. MR MAPOMA Prior to the killing of the deceased, did you ever stop your acts of gangsterism? MR MVIJANE I was no longer involved in any criminal activities. I shed the friends that I had who were members of the gangster when I joined the PAC and we led totally separate lives thereafter. MR MAPOMA Which year did you stop gangsterism? When exactly did you stop the acts? MR MVIJANE The very same year, that is 1991 when Moss spoke to me about stopping my gangster activities, because he said to me I should try by all means to stop the criminal acts because they were leading me astray, the other gang members. MR MAPOMA And do you confirm that at the time when you killed the deceased you were standing charged for rape? MR MVIJANE No, the charges that I spoke about before, that is the two rape counts, were all in the past. They had nothing to do with that particular time frame and period in which Moss and I were involved. MR MAPOMA Who actually shot the deceased? MR MVIJANE I did. MR MAPOMA Would you turn to page two of the bundle there. In the paragraph that appears as the first paragraph there, that is paragraph (iv), you say there "Doctor of Zone 6, Umgaba, a fellow activist together, where jumping a street and we met this traffic cop at about seven in the morning." You go on to say, and I quote: "Doctor shot this traffic cop with my consent." And then you carry on. Why do you tell this Committee today that you shot the deceased whereas you told this Committee in your application form that Doctor shot the deceased? Which one is the truth? MR MVIJANE I did. All that is written in here I think there's a mistake from the person who was filling in my application. I explained to him that I shot and Doctor retrieved or took the gun. MR MAPOMA Who completed this application form? MR MVIJANE David. MR MAPOMA David who? MR MVIJANE I've forgotten David's surname, but we were in the same prison with him at Leeukop. MR MAPOMA Where was Lulamile when you shot the deceased? MR MVIJANE Lulamile Khwankwa was not present. MR MAPOMA Was Lulamile present in the planning of the killing of the deceased? MR MVIJANE He wasn't. MR MAPOMA Where is Moss now? MR MVIJANE I've got no idea because even on that day I did the pointing out. We never got him. MR MAPOMA Thank you, Mr Chairman, I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Mapoma. Any questions? Questions, Mr Lax? MR LAX Thanks, Chairperson. Mr Mvijane, what jobs do traffic officers do in your understanding of things? MR MVIJANE According to the explanation that was given to me was that the traffic cops were members of the Government that oppressed us or they supported the Government in its oppression of the black nation. MR LAX I see. So would you have killed anyone who supported the Government or who worked for the Government? MR MVIJANE Yes, that is what I had been told, that that person is a potential target and an enemy of the African nation or African people. MR LAX So pension clerks and social workers and nurses, all of them who worked for the Government were potential enemies, as far as you were concerned? MR MVIJANE It was explained to me as to who were enemies, as I had explained it before, that it was soldiers, policemen as well as traffic officers and other trained people who were trained and even given arms to attack the African people. I never mentioned clerks. MR LAX Well, how do traffic cops uphold apartheid? How did they in the carrying out of their duties of regulating traffic, of catching people for speeding, how does that uphold apartheid? MR MVIJANE As I'd already explained, my commander Moss told me that the traffic cop had been given a gun, the soldier had been given a gun and they had been instructed that they had the right to use those guns in any manner that they pleased, and he explained it to me that all the guns that they possessed were not used to kill white but to kill black people. MR LAX You see, I'm asking you to use your own intelligence. As a human being you have your own mind. I'm asking you to use it. I'm asking you how the duties of a traffic officer uphold apartheid? How the duties of a traffic officer oppress anybody? It's a simple question really. MR MVIJANE When I was growing up in the location I would see traffic officers and ask myself why were they armed if they were only dealing with cars and the streets, and that was never clear to me as to why they had to be armed until Moss enlightened me as to why they were given the guns, because they were enemies and they were given those guns in order to kill black people. MR LAX Isn't it really a bit more obvious to you that traffic officers have to arrest people for offences in connection with traffic, and if those people want to avoid it they may shoot at them or they may be required to be arrested and that's why they would need a gun? Isn't that an equally valid explanation? MR MVIJANE I wouldn't say it's particularly true or false because I've never worked under the previous Government or under the Traffic Department or soldiers. I know absolutely nothing of the workings of the traffic cops, the police as well as the soldiers. I would be telling a lie if I say I knew or know something about the specific duties of the traffic cops. MR LAX You see, what I'm asking you and the reason I'm asking this is I can understand that policemen and soldiers would be pillars of apartheid. It's in the nature of their work to deal with that kind of thing. But traffic officers deal with traffic matters, they don't deal with enforcing the laws of apartheid. No single other APLA person that's ever appeared before me has said that a traffic cop was a valid target. CHAIRPERSON Can I perhaps for - just a minute, just a minute. Just for the sake of fairness. Mr Lax had put to you a position or a view which I think he's made clear is a personal view and he's referring to a personal experience on this Committee, but perhaps just for the sake of objectivity, it's not the first time where a matter has been heard by this Committee relating to disarming or killing traffic officers. So bear that in mind as well when you respond to the question. MR LAX Fair enough, Chairperson, I accept that. Let me rephrase the question in a different way. The way I put it to you initially was to say, as I said earlier, that I can understand that the work of policemen and soldiers entails supporting apartheid. What I don't understand is how the work of a traffic officer entails supporting apartheid. And are you simply relying on what Moss told you or are you willing to think about what I put to you in the context of how I put it to you? MR MVIJANE I would not say I personally know about the duties or primary duties of a traffic officer. All I know is the instructions that I had been given that a traffic officer, a policeman as well a soldiers are supporters of the previous - or were supporters of the previous regime. MR LAX Now, at the point you were heading when you saw the traffic officer on that day, you had actually been ordered to go home, is that not correct? MR MVIJANE I could say during that night we were on a patrolling mission to look for our targets, but after not having been able to identify any we decided to go home. But that did not preclude me from carrying out the instruction thereafter, after I had met a potential target whom I regarded as an enemy of the African people. So when I saw this traffic officer I saw an enemy. MR LAX You see, in your affidavit you don't say that you decided to go home, you say you were ordered to go home. That means the operation was over and you were ordered to go home, correct? MR MVIJANE No, that's not correct, as I had already explained that it was a general instruction and I did not take the fact that I should go home as an instruction that I could not do any other thing besides go home, because I had to take the ammunition. There was absolutely no need for me to go back to Moss and say, "Moss, I had seen a traffic issue out a new instruction as to whether I should kill or take the gun from the traffic officer". There was a general instruction that was out. MR LAX Now, at the time that you saw this traffic officer, did you decide that you should do something about him and then discuss it with Doctor and then proceed? MR MVIJANE Yes, that is correct. When we saw this traffic officer we discussed it amongst ourselves and identified him as a target, and we decided that we were going to disarm him. MR LAX And according to your evidence, Lulamile took no part in this whatsoever, the shooting of this man and the removing of his firearm? MR MVIJANE That is correct. MR LAX When you shot him where did you shoot him? MR MVIJANE I wouldn't be able to say because when I got to him he had his back towards me and as I was speaking to him he half turned to face me, that's when I shot him. MR LAX How far were you from him when you spoke to him? MR MVIJANE I could say three to four feet. I wasn't very far from him. MR LAX Why didn't you just grab him and put your gun into his back and say, "Give me your gun", finished? MR MVIJANE A person like a traffic officer is a trained individual and during that time I was a bit young, I could not have been able to do what you are asking me. He was well trained and he was of big build, that's why I asked him not to move. I wouldn't have been able to manhandle him or do anything of that sort. MR LAX There were two of you though and one of him. MR MVIJANE That is correct. MR LAX So why didn't you both grab him rather than kill him? MR MVIJANE Even if we could try to do that, that person was a mature person and that place was alongside the road and there was a flow of traffic. We wanted to speed up things. MR LAX So did you shoot him because to try and grab him and keep him quiet and stop him from doing anything would have taken too long? MR MVIJANE No, the reason why I shot him, because I had already explained to him that he should not move so that Doctor could come closer to him and take the gun out from him. But he reached out for his gun, that is the reason why I shot him. There was nothing else I could have done. MR LAX Where was his gun? MR MVIJANE It was on the left-hand side inside a holster. MR LAX Had he taken it out of its holster? MR MVIJANE What made him to shoot me was that I saw his hand reaching for his gun and I shot him. MR LAX Do you remember how many times you shot him? MR MVIJANE Yes, I do. MR LAX Please tell us. MR MVIJANE Once. MR LAX In court you mentioned that your brother was present during this incident. MR MVIJANE No, I never said that. I don't remember having said that. MR LAX You said your brother introduced you to Moss. MR MVIJANE Yes, I did say that, but that was not true. MR LAX And then you spoke about your brother coming on this mission. Was that also not true? MR MVIJANE Yes, that wasn't true. MR LAX Thank you, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Mbandazayo? Yes, Ms Sigodi? ADV SIGODI You mentioned that you were, in your affidavit - in fact let me just ask you this way. What kind of training did you get as an APLA member? MR MVIJANE I was trained by my commander in the use of weapons, the cleaning thereof, how to handle bombs and how to use them. ADV SIGODI And where did this training take place? MR MVIJANE Where I was staying together with Moss, my commander. We were staying at an outside room or backyard room. ADV SIGODI So this training took place in that backyard room, is that what you're telling us? MR MVIJANE Yes, that's where it took place, in the room where we were staying. ADV SIGODI No, I thought he said "qha". I don't know if ...(intervention) INTERPRETER No, I said didn't it take place anywhere else besides the room. So he said, "No, it took place only in the room" ADV SIGODI Oh. And was it only Moss who was training you or were there other people who were training you? MR MVIJANE It was Moss only. ADV SIGODI And was it only Moss who told you who were the enemies of the PAC? MR MVIJANE That is correct. ADV SIGODI Did you attend any meetings with the PAC? MR MVIJANE No, we never did. ADV SIGODI Were you educated about the strategy of APLA and how it's going to operate? MR MVIJANE No, I wasn't. A number of things hadn't yet been told to me besides the ones that I've already explained. ADV SIGODI And at the time that you killed this traffic officer how long had you been staying with Moss? MR MVIJANE It could have been a month or more, but it was quite some time. ADV SIGODI In other words, you only stayed with him a month and at the time you knew what the general order was and what was expected of you? MR MVIJANE Yes, as I had already explained, that I cannot pin myself down as to the length of time that we had stayed with my commander before the execution of this order. ADV SIGODI And your commander didn't have his own place, he actually asked for accommodation from you? MR MVIJANE Yes, that is correct. That is what he relayed to me, that he had a problem with regard to accommodation and I sympathised with him and pointed out to him that I would talk to the owners of the yard so that we could stay together in that yard. ADV SIGODI Did he tell you where he came from? MR MVIJANE He never explained as to where he was coming from within South Africa, but he had told me that he was from the African States. ADV SIGODI Did he say which African State he came from? MR MVIJANE Yes, he did. ADV SIGODI Which one? MR MVIJANE He said he was from Tanzania. ADV SIGODI Did he say where he came from before he came to stay with you? MR MVIJANE No, he never explained to me. ADV SIGODI And you had never seen him before? MR MVIJANE No. ADV SIGODI So after shooting the - okay, I just want to understand this. When you say you went home because you could not find the target, you say that, "Moss ordered us to go to our respective places". Where did Moss go? MR MVIJANE As I was staying with Moss at my place, he went to where we were staying, that is the two of us. ADV SIGODI So after you finished shooting the traffic cop and you went home where was Moss? MR MVIJANE He was in the room and I told him what we had done. ADV SIGODI And what did he do? What did he say to you after that? MR MVIJANE He asked me as to whether there was anyone who identified us. I told him that I did not take notice of that as to whether there was any eyewitness or any person who had seen what had happened. ADV SIGODI All right. Where was the gun which you took from the traffic officer at that time? MR MVIJANE As we were running from the scene of the crime, the gun was with Doctor. When we got to the room Doctor handed the gun to the commander. ADV SIGODI And after he handed the gun to the commander what did the commander do with the gun? MR MVIJANE Immediately thereafter Lulamile Khwankwa arrived and he told us that we should not keep the gun there because he had seen a young boy who was talking to the police and he suspected that within a few minutes the police would be coming. We collected all the arms that we had and put them inside a sports bag and we left the place. ADV SIGODI Who left the place? MR MVIJANE It was myself, Lulamile Khwankwa, Doctor, as well as the commander Moss, Mbuzeni Zulu. ADV SIGODI Why didn't Mbuzeni Zulu go with you? MR MVIJANE Mbuzeni Zulu was going to give us a place of abode or some hide-out so that we could evade the police. CHAIRPERSON Let me check that. Mr Mapoma, I assume that this person that's being referred to, his name only arose now in the course of this testimony. MR MAPOMA Pardon, Chair, I didn't hear? CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) Mr Zulu. MR MAPOMA Yes, I didn't get you well now. What is the position? CHAIRPERSON He's not somebody whose name had arisen at an earlier stage and who had been given notice? MR MAPOMA No, sir, he has not been notified. In fact he just crops up in this testimony, his name. CHAIRPERSON All right. We can deal with that. ADV SIGODI Of what interest was this to Mbuzeni Zulu? Was he also an APLA member? MR MVIJANE No, he wasn't. He wasn't a member of the PAC or APLA, but he offered to give us a place or a hide-out where we could stay in order to evade arrest. ADV SIGODI So he became aware of what you had done? He was aware that you had shot somebody? MR MVIJANE Yes, I could say that. I could say that he knew what we had done, because when we arrived, that is myself and Doctor, he saw us and he saw us rushing into the room. He even asked us as to what was wrong and he wanted to know. I explained to him that things were bad and police could come in any time. ADV SIGODI Thank you, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Did Mr Zulu just offer to assist you? MR MVIJANE Mbuzeni Zulu stayed in the same yard as us. He was not my brother, but I think he sort of sympathised with me because I regarded him as my elder brother or my older brother. CHAIRPERSON And did he do anything else apart from saying that he could help you to find a place, a hide-out? MR MVIJANE No, there is nothing else that he did. CHAIRPERSON So he has never done anything to assist you in evading arrest or anything like that? It was just a discussion that you were having? MR MVIJANE No, he never helped us in any other manner besides finding a place for us to stay. CHAIRPERSON No, but I just want to ascertain what he actually did, Mr Zulu. Did he just say he will - well let me put it this way. Did he actually help you to find a place to stay or did he just made that offer to you and said, "I could help you to find a place to stay"? MR MVIJANE Yes, when we went out, we went out with Mbuzeni Zulu. He accompanied us. CHAIRPERSON And what did he actually do? Did he help you find a place to hide away or what did he do? MR MVIJANE Yes, that is correct, he did help us. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Is it, as you say in paragraph 11 of your affidavit, in that first paragraph you say he promised to provide you with accommodation and then you went to Klipspruit. I suppose to the house of his relative? MR MVIJANE Yes, that is true. CHAIRPERSON Did he introduce you to that relative of his? MR MVIJANE That is correct. CHAIRPERSON And did he ask the relative to give you any assistance or what did he actually do? MR MVIJANE Yes, Mbuzeni went into the house and spoke to the owner of the house. They came outside, that is himself and the owner. I also approached the owner of the house who invited us inside his house. CHAIRPERSON You didn't hear what Mr Zulu said to the owner of that house? MR MVIJANE No, I did not hear the exact words that they exchanged. CHAIRPERSON All right. Now, just one other thing. After you had reported to Moss that you had disarmed and shot this traffic officer, did Moss reprimand you at all? MR MVIJANE No, he did not reprimand us. He accepted that and he regarded that as a mission accomplished. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Mbandazayo? RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO Thank you, Mr Chairman. Some of the points have been raised by Advocate Sigodi I wanted to raise. It's just that on a few aspect. Mr Mvijane, is it correct that you were still a recruit, you were newly recruited at the time of this incident? MR MVIJANE Yes, that is correct. I was still a newly recruited soldier. MR MBANDAZAYO Am I correct if I say that you were not yet well versed with PAC and APLA policies in detail? MR MVIJANE That is true. MR MBANDAZAYO And Moss has just given you basics? MR MVIJANE That is correct. MR MBANDAZAYO Thank you, Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MBANDAZAYO CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Mbandazayo. Is that all that you want to present in respect of the first applicant? MR MBANDAZAYO Yes. Yes, Mr Chairman, that's all in respect. I will wait the second applicant, then the person I'm going to call. I'm calling after the last witness to cover both in respect of this matter. CHAIRPERSON And so for the moment that concludes the testimony of the first applicant? MR MBANDAZAYO Yes, Mr Chairman. Thank you. CHAIRPERSON In that case we will adjourn. MR MAPOMA Excuse me. Excuse me, Chairperson. I'm sorry, sir. I just have one point to converse here. CHAIRPERSON Certainly. Go ahead, Mr Mapoma. FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA Thank you, sir. Mr Mvijane, there is a view that what you did was not an act associated with political objective, but was an act in carrying out of your acts of gangsterism. What is your response to this suggestion? MR MVIJANE I know absolutely nothing. Anyone can say anything he likes, but what I have put before this Committee is the truth. MR MAPOMA Now, with the benefit of hindsight, how do you feel about the act that you did, bearing in mind that there are family members who lost their loved ones as a result of your action? What is your feeling? MR MVIJANE What I can say to the members of the family is that whatever happened was not meant to carry out a certain vendetta against the family or against the deceased himself, but all that I did, I did in furtherance of the struggle for freedom. I had no personal malice, I had no vendetta. I did not know him. I had not seen him before. I was seeing him for the very first time when I killed him. So it was nothing personal. MR MAPOMA Thank you. No further questions, Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Mapoma. Any further aspect? Yes, Mr Lax? MR LAX It's been suggested to you by Mr Mbandazayo that you were a new recruit and had you been on other operations before this one? MR MVIJANE No, I had not been involved in any other operations. That was my first operation. MR LAX Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mbandazayo, have you got any further questions in the light of the questions that were posed to the applicant? MR MBANDAZAYO None, Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MBANDAZAYO WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON Thank you. We'll adjourn until 2 o'clock. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS