amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1998-10-13 EAST LONDON 6 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=52889&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1998/98100514_el_eastlon6.htm THEMBISILE MAJEBE: (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO Mr Majebe, the affidavit which is in front of you is also before the Committee, do you confirm that this affidavit was made by yourself and that you abide by its contents? MR MAJEBE Yes. CHAIRPERSON Wait Mr Mbandazayo, just which one are you talking about that you would want to rely on? In the bundle we have an application that starts on the page marked 1. Attached to that form is a document headed "Statement by Thembesile Majebe", starting on page 8 and that proceeds to page 40. We have now been handed a document headed "Affidavit"; it seems that the same person has made an affidavit. MR MBANDAZAYO Thank you Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Is this the document you wish to lead him on? MR MBANDAZAYO Yes Mr Chairperson, I've tried thusfar to facilitate the leading of evidence made with this affidavit from that statement. CHAIRPERSON This will be Exhibit A then. MR MBANDAZAYO Thank you Mr Chairperson. MR MAPOMA I'm sorry Chairperson, perhaps I have just to explain the status of the document from page 8 to page 14. Mr Chairperson this statement is in fact a statement which was prepared by the TRC investigator, he having had an interview with the applicant, otherwise it's not a statement which accompanied the amnesty application of the applicant as such. Thank you sir. MR MBANDAZAYO Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Chairperson to facilitate the proceeding of this matter, what I will do, though it it's contained in the affidavit, I wouldn't necessarily confine myself to the affidavit to certain paragraphs but what is going to happen is what is contained in the affidavit I will ask just to lead the applicant on the contents, not necessarily to referring to a particular paragraph. Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Majebe, can you tell the Committee in your own words what led to yourself attempting to kill the victim, Lucky August? MR MAJEBE In 1993 there was a dispute amongst PASO students and COSA students. Mr Lucky August was the secretary for the ANC Youth League in Fort Beaufort, he was one of the people who was involved amongst the leaders who were forcing the other students to be chased away from the school. MR MBANDAZAYO Yes what were you at the time yourself? MR MAJEBE I was the PASO organiser at the time. I was a student at Namibia, I was in Standard 8. MR MBANDAZAYO Yes, proceed. MR MAJEBE Mr Lucky August, between 7 and 8pm, we saw Mr Lucky August with two of his comrades, they were three in total. They came towards us, we were sitting at a place where his elder brother who was a priest stayed, next door to the place we were sitting. He got out of that house and came towards and went past us going towards his home. My late comrade Luyanda Zote also stayed on the street. He went to his home, we had no business with him at the time, we just were on our own business, but after five minutes had elapsed when he had got into his house, Mr Gcabashe who was fixing a car underneath a street lamp in the township looked shocked and we joked with him asking him what was going on. He said that Lucky was threatening Ngulu Leko with a gun and was telling him how he was going to shoot him. We asked where the person was and he said that he went to his house. We asked what had happened, he said that he asked this boy to go and fetch a screw driver and when he was going past his house he threatened him with a gun, therefore he was shocked. After the shock he decided to take a walk. We went to look for him, we didn't find him ...(intervention) ADV DE JAGER Sorry it's not quite clear to me, whom did Lucky threaten to shoot? MR MAJEBE Ngulu Leko. ADV DE JAGER Was that the man working on the car? MR MAJEBE No it was a little boy who was helping the man that was fixing the car. ADV DE JAGER Thank you. ADV SANDI When you say little boy, about what age was he, this Ngulu Leko? MR MAJEBE Between eight and ten years of age. ADV SANDI Did he have any association with anyone of you or your group, this Ngulu Leko? MR MAJEBE His elder brother was a member of our organisation, the PAC. When we went to look for him we stood three houses away from Lucky's house, we waited for about five minutes and schoolboy Charlie appeared with a coke bottle. When he saw us he went back to the place where he came from which was Lucky August's house. A few minutes after he had got into the house, Lucky came out of the house alone, he came using the road coming towards us. We did not care much because we were sitting on the pavement just next to a hedge. He then came exactly towards us and his one hand went towards his waist as if he was going to take out something. When he was about two to three steps away from us I leaped and I took a pickaxe and hit him with it until he fell. CHAIRPERSON Was that a pick handle or a pick axe? MR MAJEBE A pickaxe. I hit him with the handle. ADV SANDI Sorry Mr Majebe. Interpreter, did he say pick axe or pick handle? I think he says pick handle. INTERPRETER Pick handle, I apologise. MR MAJEBE When he fell I went to search what weapon he had around his waist. I found a gun, a .38, we usually call it a fly wheel, around his waist. I took it, I hit him again on the face twice with the pick handle, this is when he was still down. I then ran off with his gun, we left him there. Whilst this was happening I was with Luyanda Zote who had been threatened by Lucky August with death and Thembela Father. What caused all this were the threats that he had made towards my comrades and the spirit he spread around the school that we should be kicked out of the school. He was not even at school, he was just a member of the Youth League, ANC Youth League in the community, not at school. Should I continue? MR DE JAGER Just to go back to the attack with the pick handle, did the pick handle on the one end contain an axe or was it only the handle and you used the back side of the pick axe or was it only the wooden handle separate from the pick? MR MAJEBE It was just a handle, a pick handle. CHAIRPERSON How many times did you hit him after you had disarmed him? MR MAJEBE I think twice. CHAIRPERSON Whereabouts on his body? MR MAJEBE Around the head. ADV SANDI What was he doing at that stage? MR MAJEBE He was lying on the ground. CHAIRPERSON How many times did you hit him before you disarmed him? MR MAJEBE Before he fell on the ground I hit him twice on the face. ADV SANDI When you hit him twice on the face, that is after you had disarmed him, what was your aim, why did you do that? MR MAJEBE The reason why I hit him after I had disarmed him was because I was angry at the time and the way he had threatened people. I knew him pretty well, I did not expect him to do all the things that he was doing. CHAIRPERSON Tell me, how many people were lying in wait there for Mr August? MR MAJEBE There were two with me, I was the third person. CHAIRPERSON Three of you. And according to your affidavit, you were lying on the grass, the three of you behind the hedge, is that correct? MR MAJEBE Correct, we were not lying behind the hedge, it was the hedge and then the lawn, the grass and we were just there. CHAIRPERSON Could Mr August see you when he approached you? MR MAJEBE Yes he saw us because where we were, it was dark where we were and just when you got down there was light so where he was he could see us. CHAIRPERSON Do I understand your evidence correctly, you of the three are the only one that assaulted Mr August? MR MAJEBE Correct. CHAIRPERSON When you hit him before he fell, before you disarmed him, did he bleed? MR MAJEBE It was dark, I did not see any blood. CHAIRPERSON But you were near the light, you could see you, isn't it? MR MAJEBE Where we were there was no light but on both sides there was light. If you were standing where we were where it was dark you could see. CHAIRPERSON You said that Lucky could see you when he approached you because there was light, not so? MR MAJEBE I said he was coming towards ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON He could see you because you were ...(intervention) MR MAJEBE He saw shadows, he could not see who it was particularly, he must have seen shadows. CHAIRPERSON That's not what you told me now. MR MAJEBE I said where we were it was dark, the light was on both sides, on the left and on the right. When you're coming towards us you could see our shadows reflected on the light on both sides. CHAIRPERSON No that's not what you said. I asked you that when you were lying there on the grass and when Mr August was approaching you, could he see you and you said yes he could see because there was light, not so? MR MAJEBE Maybe you didn't understand me sir, I said where we were the hedge that was blocking the light but he could see our shadows because there was light on both sides, on the left and on the right. Only when he comes much closer could he see exactly who it was. CHAIRPERSON Ja okay, so where you were lying on the grass, when he got to you he would have known who it was, not so? MR MAJEBE I don't know whether he knew exactly who, if he could see exactly who we were. CHAIRPERSON But you say that if he came close to you people he would have seen who it was. MR MAJEBE Correct. CHAIRPERSON How far was he when you saw him? INTERPRETER I beg your pardon, the speaker says it is the distance from where he is sitting to the white wall on the opposite side. CHAIRPERSON I reckon about 10 metres or a little bit more? MR MAJEBE We could say, which wall? CHAIRPERSON Oh that wall there, I'd say it's about 15 metres, are we in agreement, Mr Sandi? MR SANDI M'Lord, is it not a little bit more than 15 metres? CHAIRPERSON Generous to the witness. Mr Mapoma would you accept plus or minus 15? MR MAPOMA Yes Chairperson I would accept that. CHAIRPERSON Then all the representatives agree it's more or less 15 metres. Tell me, how were you able to see that it was Mr Lucky August at that distance, if you say that he would only be able to see who it was if he was close to you? MR MAJEBE First of all there was a street lamp and it was lit on the side where he was coming, and as I've already said we saw him before and we saw the clothes that he had been wearing and I know him well. CHAIRPERSON Does he know you well? MR MAJEBE Correct. CHAIRPERSON Do you know how he knew it was you people at that position if it was difficult for him to see? MR MAJEBE Please repeat the question? CHAIRPERSON If it was difficult for him to see at a distance and had to be near you in order to identify you and your colleagues with perhaps an intention to attack you or whatever, can you tell me how from a distance of 15m or more was he able to say who it was that was on the grass? MR MAJEBE I think something is not clear, I made a distance with that wall, that distance is when we saw him emanating from his house coming towards us. The road would pass close right next to the grass where we were lying, for example if we are lying where I am sitting, the road would go past where the speakers are, therefore from the speakers so to speak he then changed his direction and came straight towards us. CHAIRPERSON Mr Majebe, listen to me very carefully. This is not a criminal matter. We don't sit here in order to pass sentence on you. In fact what we are sitting here for is to entertain your application for amnesty and if you comply with certain aspects of the law, we are obliged to grant the amnesty for you, do you understand? So let us forget about all the technicalities of distances and lighting. One of the aspects that you must comply with is to tell us the truth, do we understand? MR MAJEBE I'm listening sir. CHAIRPERSON Therefore I'm asking you now, never mind the technicalities of lighting and distance, as I understand your application, it was your view that Mr August was coming directly to you with a view of attacking you and your colleagues, not so? MR MAJEBE Correct. CHAIRPERSON Can you tell us, if you can't then say you can't, can you tell us how he would have known that you were on the grass during the night? MR MAJEBE He knew that it was us because Schoolboy went to tell him that we were lying there. CHAIRPERSON Didn't Schoolboy come and tell you this is what he intended, that is to attack you? That's how I understood your evidence or am I wrong? MR MAJEBE That was Ngulu Leko and not Schoolboy. Mr August was with Schoolboy. Ngulu Leko was the boy that was threatened, helping Mr Gcabashe with the car. CHAIRPERSON Correct, now your colleagues, were they armed? MR MAJEBE Yes they were. CHAIRPERSON What with? MR MAJEBE They also had pick handles. CHAIRPERSON Is that all? MR MAJEBE Correct. CHAIRPERSON Nobody had firearms? MR MAJEBE One person had a firearm. CHAIRPERSON Who was that? MR MAJEBE Thembela. CHAIRPERSON That is one of your colleagues? MR MAJEBE Correct. CHAIRPERSON So he had a firearm and a gun? MR MAJEBE Could you repeat your question please? CHAIRPERSON Which one? MR MAJEBE Did you say he had a firearm and then? CHAIRPERSON Pick handle. MR MAJEBE He had a firearm and a pick handle. CHAIRPERSON But therefore I'm saying, listen to my two questions carefully because a question or two ago I asked you what the others had and you said pick handles, and I asked: "Is that all"? and you said: "Yes". Then I asked you whether anyone had a firearm and you said: "Yes one of them". Therefore I'm saying listen to the questions carefully, do you understand? MR MAJEBE Okay. CHAIRPERSON Now you say one of you had a firearm but the person who had a firearm, also a pick handle did not attack Mr Lucky August, correct? It was only you that attacked him, correct? MR MAJEBE Correct. CHAIRPERSON Were you only armed with a pick handle, nothing else? MR MAJEBE Correct. CHAIRPERSON You only struck him about four times with this pick handle in the vicinity of his head and face. correct? MR MAJEBE I hit him twice before he fell. I don't remember exactly how many times I hit him after he had fallen. CHAIRPERSON You've already said about twice, I'm not going to hold you to that but it's approximate. MR MAJEBE Alright. CHAIRPERSON Do you agree you hit him about twice thereafter? MR MAJEBE Yes. CHAIRPERSON So all in all it was about four times? MR MAJEBE Yes approximately. CHAIRPERSON You did nothing else to him? MR MAJEBE After I got his gun I ran off with the gun. CHAIRPERSON No after you got his gun you hit him about twice more? MR MAJEBE Correct and then I ran. CHAIRPERSON Did your other two colleagues also run away at that time? MR MAJEBE They ran before me, they ran off before me. CHAIRPERSON And you left Mr August there? MR MAJEBE Yes I left him on the ground. CHAIRPERSON You don't know what happened to him thereafter? MR MAJEBE I do not know what happened to him. CHAIRPERSON Yes thank you. MR MBANDAZAYO Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Majebe can you tell the Committee; you are telling the Committee the two of you, yourself it was Luyanda and another one, but in Court you were charged with Mr Biko, can you tell the Committee why was that that you were charged with Mr Biko, not the two others, yet you say that they were the people that were there? You didn't mention Mr Biko was charged with you. MR MAJEBE Yes that is correct. I was accused with Mr Biko who a PAC member in the court but in the incident he was not there, he was not part of the incident at all. My view is that it was the PAC and the ANC that were fighting, he got involved because it was known that he was an ANC member, to fulfil the aims of the ANC because what they wanted to do is to be an obstacle in the PAC struggle. He is the one who obstructed the aims of the PAC struggles in Fort Beaufort. MR MBANDAZAYO Mr Chairperson I don't think the interpretation was right. In fact the interpretation is that Mr Biko, he is the person who made PAC to be strong, to grow in Fort Beaufort so that's why he was mentioned as one of the people who attacking Lucky August, not the other way around. ADV SANDI I agree with you, maybe we can ask him to repeat what he said. Can you repeat everything you just said? MR MAJEBE I think that the reason why I was accused with Mr Biko is because the problem between the ANC and the PAC in the community. Mr Biko was the person who was strong and helped the PAC in Fort Beaufort to be strong and to stand still. The reason why he got involved was because they wanted to destroy the PAC altogether in Fort Beaufort and only wanted the ANC to exist there. MR DE JAGER What were the names of your other two colleagues who were involved and were lying behind the hedge that evening? MR MAJEBE Luyanda Zote and Thembele Fata. ADV SANDI They are both dead now I understand? MR MAJEBE Correct. ADV SANDI Did they die as a result of this conflict? MR MAJEBE No. I was not there but I heard that Thembele was shot in a taxi war and Luyanda was stabbed by a friend of his when they were playing. MR DE JAGER Were they involved in many fights? MR MAJEBE I don't know them as such. MR DE JAGER And after this incident, we know at least they've been involved in two fights now, well each one in one fight and that was fatal fights, but before that do you know of any other fights they were involved in? MR MAJEBE No I know of no other incidents except this one that I am about here? MR DE JAGER During that week preceding the present incident there were a lot of incidents where other people were wounded and attacked, were they involved in those attacks? MR MAJEBE Not that I know of. MR DE JAGER Were you involved in those attacks? MR MAJEBE Yes there were incidents that I was involved in before this one. MR DE JAGER Was Mr Biko involved in those attacks? MR MAJEBE No. MR DE JAGER There were two Mr Biko's, Mr Vuyisile Biko and Mr Tekane Biko, is that correct? MR MAJEBE That's correct. MR DE JAGER Were anyone of them involved in any attack? MR MAJEBE I know Tekane well because I was at school with him. He was a church goer, he didn't smoke or drink, he was born again, he was saved, he didn't like violence even at school. MR DE JAGER And you, were you born again and a church goer and didn't like violence? MR MAJEBE No I was not saved, I was not a church goer. I did not like violence but I did protect myself from violence. MR MBANDAZAYO Thank you Mr Chair. Mr Majebe, you heard in Court what happened and you heard the victim Mr Lucky August who was sitting down there narrating his story and how he was injured in the incident. What do you say to that today? MR MAJEBE First of all I would like to say to Mr Lucky August that we were all in the struggle we must accept what happened during the struggle, he must accept as a freedom fighter but I know that it is not easy to accept this because I would not accept it either as I see him and the way he is now. Because of the oppression of the time, of the day, we swore that we would fight against the oppression. If he could find peace and realise that in a struggle in a war there are casualties. MR DE JAGER And now answer the question that's been asked of you by your counsel. CHAIRPERSON It was put to you that you heard what he said in the criminal trial, have you got any comments about what his version was in the criminal trial? Isn't that the issue Mr Mbandazayo? MR MBANDAZAYO Thank you Mr Chairperson, thank you. Let me put it this way, you heard Mr August, what he told the Court, how he was attacked and what time of the day this incident happened. Now I want you to comment on that. MR MAJEBE Because it was in court and there was a case, he wanted me to be found guilty. He said I attacked him during the day, it was not in the day, it was between seven and eight, it was in the evening. We didn't talk to him as he said, that we asked for tobacco or cigarettes, we did not throw a stone at him as he said in court, we didn't stab him with anything but what happened is that I hit him with a pick handle. MR MBANDAZAYO That's all Mr Chairperson at this time. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MBANDAZAYO CHAIRPERSON You know there's medical evidence as there was in a criminal matter, that says that Mr August lost his sight as a result of being stabbed in the eyes. Have you got any comments about that, do you know anything about that? MR MAJEBE I heard that report from court and they way that they said that he was injured in the eye. It was not a sharp object, it was a pick handle that I hit him with, not anything sharp. CHAIRPERSON ...(indistinct) INTERPRETER Could the speaker please repeat that last statement? MR MAJEBE If it was a sharp object it would have interfered with his brain or his skull, his skull would have been cracked. CHAIRPERSON Now look, all I want to know is whether you deny or confirm that he was stabbed in his eye, leave alone the technicalities of which neither of us is an expert. MR MAJEBE Yes I deny it. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mbandazayo, I want to ask witness a particular question but I'd like him to take advice first from you. The question being whether he accepts in view of his last answer that Mr August's blindness is the result of his activities but I don't want him to answer the question, I want him to take advice first. Secondly, maybe you can consult with him also, we have in our possession the judgment at the criminal trial wherein certain factors relating to medical evidence is mentioned, it does not seem that that section of the judgement in any event has been put into dispute. I would want to ask you afterwards whether you accept that bit of evidence or do we need to call a doctor or whatever or solve that problem in any way the panel deems fit. I will adjourn now for tea so as to give you an opportunity to consult with him. MR MBANDAZAYO Thank you Mr Chairperson. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION THEMBISILE MAJEBE (s.u.o.) MR MBANDAZAYO Thank you Mr Chairperson. As Chairperson, during the interval I did consult with my client Mr Chairperson and Mr Chairperson can ask the questions. CHAIRPERSON Mr Majebe, there is evidence before us that the reason that Mr August lost his sight was because he was stabbed in the eyes. Now do you accept, you've already said that you don't know anything about that, correct? MR MAJEBE I know that he was injured and the cause of that but the fact that he was stabbed with a sharp object, I don't know anything about that because what actually happened as I have already indicated before, Mr Lucky August I hit him with a pick handle. He was supposed to be shot by my comrade who was later afraid and I decided to hit him with a pick handle. CHAIRPERSON Do you accept that he lost his sight as a result of your actions? MR MAJEBE Yes that is correct. CHAIRPERSON Lastly, I'm not suggesting that you stabbed him or not, but there is evidence before us that he was stabbed in the eyes. Do you contest that medical evidence or not? The medical evidence doesn't say you did it, neither am I suggesting at this stage that you did it, but do you accept that medical evidence that he was stabbed in the eyes at some stage or the other or not? MR MAJEBE I'm here to tell the truth first of all, I'm not here to apologise or to accept something did not happen because I want forgiveness, I'm not going to do that. All I know and what I did is what I'm saying that Mr August was supposed to be shot by the comrade that was with me, therefore I injured him with a pick handle. I accept that the evidence from the doctor that he was injured in the eyes, I accept that but I do not accept that he was stabbed by a sharp object, therefore I'm not going to change my statement and say that he was stabbed with a sharp object because I want to get amnesty, because I'm the one who was hitting him, there was no knife. CHAIRPERSON The Doctor indicates that he was stabbed in the eye. Do you say the doctor was wrong or do you accept what the doctor says? MR MAJEBE I do not accept the fact that he was stabbed because I've already said that I hit him with a pick handle. He was never stabbed with a sharp object. I was the one who was doing it and I am sure that the doctor was not there, but the doctor saw wounds. The pick handle that I was using was not that smooth, maybe it could cause some injuries that would look like it was done with a sharp object but I'm sure that if the object was sharp his bones could have been cracked, maybe he could have died because of that. CHAIRPERSON Now look here Mr Majebe, I didn't asked you to give me a medical lecture. I am not an expert, neither are you about how injuries are inflicted, all I'm asking you is that somehow the doctor has made that finding, if you dispute it, well and good, that's all I'm asking, are you able to dispute what the doctor has said? If you do dispute it say so, if you don't say so, but I'm not asking for explanations how injuries were inflicted. MR MAJEBE I said I'm here to tell the truth, I'm not here to satisfy anyone, to say what a particular person wants me to say and to hear it from what happened, the doctor does not know the object that caused his injuries, I'm the one who knows it, that doctor says that it's a sharp object, I dispute that because I'm the one who hit him with a pick handle. CHAIRPERSON Yes Mr Mbandazayo, I don't know if I'm going to get further. MR MBANDAZAYO Mr Chairperson I've already indicated that there's nothing to lead further, thank you. CHAIRPERSON Mr Sandi, have you got any questions? MR SANDI Yes I do Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Proceed. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR SANDI Now Mr Majebe if Mr August was not carrying a firearm and he just walked past you whilst you were lying there on the ground, on the grass, would you Mr Majebe have attacked? MR MAJEBE I hope that in front of you you do have my explanation or my application. Mr Lucky August, what he did initially before he was seen at that site, he threatened Luyanda Zote, he threatened to kill Luyanda Zote. If he is not there at his place he would kill his mother and cut off her breast and the breast would be put on top of the table, that would be a message. When we saw him we had already got a report. As we went there we went there to watch him. It is clear that we went there to prevent him from attacking. MR SANDI The question remains, Mr Majebe, if Mr August did not have a firearm and he walked past you in the street while you were lying there, would you Mr Majebe have attacked him? MR MAJEBE At the time that we talked about there was conflict between PAC and the ANC and we knew Mr August as a person who would attack us, therefore we were forced to protect ourselves against him. MR DE JAGER No the question is very simple, whether you had to protect yourselves or whether there was conflict or not, counsel is asking you only one thing, you were lying there, he walked past, if he only continued walking on would you have attacked him or not? MR MAJEBE I was going to attack him. The reason for that is this, at that the time at Fort Beaufort there was conflict between ANC and PAC and he was a member of the ANC and we knew very well that he was one of the people who have contributed in what was happening there and as a leader we were supposed to attack him so that his subordinates who were attacking PAC members could stop and learn a lesson from him. CHAIRPERSON MR MAJEBE That is a combination because even the threat was part of what was happening between his organisation and my organisation. CHAIRPERSON So why didn't you go out to attack him at same other time, why did you lay in wait for him as if to say, well certainly the impression I got was to see if anybody was going to come and attack this house and then defend the house? And when he came he appeared to be taking something out of his waist at which point he was then attacked. MR MAJEBE As I said, one of my comrades had a gun, he was supposed to shoot him from the beginning but he was afraid. He waited for him to come closer but I realised that we could be in danger, I decided to hit him first. MR DE JAGER So you were in fact lying there to ambush him? MR MAJEBE Yes that is correct as he also went to our place to attack us. MR DE JAGER Was he alone when you attacked him? MR MAJEBE Yes he was alone when we were attacking him. MR DE JAGER So all the stories that you've been trying to guard the house, that you've only been lying there waiting and see whether he would pass there, that's not the real issue, the issue was you were ambushing him there and you would like to kill him because he was your opponent? MR MAJEBE To be our opponent is something else. He was destroying our organisation. We had authority, it was our authority to go and attack and protect our organisation against anyone who would do anything similar to what he was doing. CHAIRPERSON If he was such a great threat and destroying your organisation, why didn't you go and attack him at his house the day before or the week before? MR MAJEBE We wouldn't find him in his house. CHAIRPERSON How did you know, did you try? MR MAJEBE Mr Lucky August as I've told you before, I know him. I even know that he is a trained guerrilla. As a person who's got the same training, we wouldn't find him in his house, the only place we would find him was in the street or on the way to further his mission, whatever mission that he was about to ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON So you saw him going into a house, not so? MR MAJEBE Yes that is correct. CHAIRPERSON That was before you got any message, correct? MR MAJEBE Yes that is correct. CHAIRPERSON Why didn't you and your colleagues run to that house and attack him if he was such a great threat to your organisation? MR MAJEBE We couldn't just go into his house because we knew that he was a trained soldier, we wouldn't just go there straight to him, we were supposed to be cool and calm down because we would be injured by him. CHAIRPERSON Yes, Mr Sandi. MR SANDI Now Mr Majebe, is it correct or not that when you attacked Mr August you were acting in self-defence? MR MAJEBE Yes that was self-defence, we were protecting ourselves. CHAIRPERSON So did you commit a crime then? Do you think you committed a crime by assaulting him? MR MAJEBE That was not a crime to protect ourselves or to defend ourselves. CHAIRPERSON Now therefore I'm asking you, when you attacked him it was in self defence and in defence of your organisation, therefore you did not commit a crime? Do I understand you correctly? MR MAJEBE That was not crime but according to the government of the time what we did was regarded as if we were breaking the law but we the people of the organisation, we knew that that was not breaking the law because that was also contained in the documents of the ANC that anyone who was trying to destroy our organisation is not to be allowed. That's what we did, therefore that was not breaking the law. CHAIRPERSON Yes I know. I think we all know what the law under the previous government was and the law under the present government, etc. What I'm trying to establish, because under both laws if a person approached a matter in self defence then it was not a crime, everybody is entitled to defend himself, not so? MR MAJEBE Yes that is correct. CHAIRPERSON The question is directed at finding out precisely what your position was. When you hit Mr August, were you attacking him or were you defending yourself? MR MAJEBE I was defending myself. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR SANDI You were defending yourself because he had this firearm. MR MAJEBE I was defending myself and I was also defending my organisation because if I die, if my organisation will lose and die and his intentions would be fulfilled. I was not attacking him but I was just attacking him because he wanted to destroy my organisation so that his own organisation can be successful. MR SANDI And when you attacked him, did you intend to kill him? MR MAJEBE That would depend on the situation, that would depend on the attack, but all I was doing, I was just defending myself against him but killing was no-one's intention, it would just happen. MR SANDI But this attack on Mr Majebe, was it planned? MR MAJEBE The attack was not planned but what we did when we saw him, we knew what we were supposed to do about him because if we had planned he would be in the trap from the first time that he was appearing because he was not the only person that we were waiting for. Anyone from the ANC if he would appear at the time we would do the same with him. MR SANDI So you saw him walking, he went into a certain house and then it was at that stage that you decided to attack him? MR MAJEBE He went to a certain house and we were watching him and we told ourselves that we had seen him and we were supposed to do something to him. MR SANDI And then once he went into the house you went to arm yourselves. MR MAJEBE As we were sitting they were waiting anyone like him, not waiting for him only, we were ready for anything that would happen. It's not that we were waiting for him specifically, anyone from the ANC organisation was to be in the same danger, all the time we were ready for anything that would happen. MR SANDI So any member of the ANC irrespective of age, irrespective of anything, if he or she appeared there you would have assaulted that person, attacked that person. MR MAJEBE That is not so. There were children and other people who were also supporters of ANC but we were looking for the people like him who were the leaders, who were the perpetrators of what was happening because they were the people who were giving instructions. Therefore we would be wasting time if we would rush for the subordinates instead of getting to the leaders straight. That is why we were waiting for the leaders like him. MR SANDI Now the plan to attack, as I understand your evidence ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON If you wanted to kill him and your colleague got cold feet, why didn't you take hold of that firearm and do it yourself if he needed to be killed? You were there, you had disarmed him, you had rendered him ineffective, why didn't you just take hold of the firearm that was in the custody of your colleague who was supposed to have shot him and do the job yourself? MR MAJEBE First of all the people who were with me were the task force members who were waiting for my orders. I gave one of them an order and then he defied the order and as a person who had issued the order I was supposed to attack because as I was issuing an order he was not standing still, he was on the way approaching us. I did not have a chance to take the gun because the other comrade was also afraid and I wouldn't have time to go and get the firearm from my comrade, he could have shot me first. What I thought of immediately at the time was to attack him. MR DE JAGER Why didn't you shoot him with his own gun after you had taken his gun? MR MAJEBE He was ineffective because he was already lying down and my aim was not to kill him but I just wanted to take, I just wanted him to stop trying to destroy our organisation and try to chase our members away. CHAIRPERSON So you thought by hitting him four times with a pick handle, that would do the job? A trained guerrilla as you put it would now desist from political activities because he got clouted with a pick handle? Is that what you're saying? MR MAJEBE Professor Sobukwa said that if a person is very stupid you can use a pick handle to show him the right way. I was not actually killing him, I was just giving him some discipline because I wanted him to know that the way that they are doing in their politics is not the right way because their mistake is that if a black person has committed a mistake to another black person they attack that particular person but if a white man had done something wrong to a black person they just go on a peaceful march to that particular person. I was trying to show them that the PAC is regarding them not as our enemies, our only enemies were Boers and the Boers were befriended by them, therefore we were trying to show them that they are not supposed to fight us, they are supposed to negotiate with us. I was trying to take him off that mind-set. CHAIRPERSON Are you finished with that answer? Then answer this. Your colleague was supposed kill him by shooting him, not to teach him anything, isn't that so? MR MAJEBE Yes that is correct, he was supposed to shoot him, if he died he would just die like that. Maybe if he was not shot at another - we were not going to be able to control the situation whether he dies or not after being shot, we were not ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Look here, there was a plan to kill him you said, correct? There was a plan to kill him, your colleague was supposed to shoot him, not to teach him anything, not so? MR MAJEBE Shooting him to death, to the others who would still be alive at the time, that would be a lesson. CHAIRPERSON You gave an order to somebody who defied your order you say, your order was to shoot and kill him, that is Mr August, correct? Remember you said so? MR MAJEBE Yes that is correct. CHAIRPERSON The simple question is, asked by my colleague, that when this order was defied you had Mr August's firearm yourself in your hand, why didn't you then shoot him because he was supposed to be killed? You were defending your organisation against the man who was destroying your organisation? MR MAJEBE I issued the order to shoot him, he was not shot and I hit him and he fell and it was clear that he wouldn't be able to do anything, therefore I didn't see a reason for me to shoot him while he was lying down. If I was not satisfied I could have shot him with his own gun. MR SANDI Now Mr Majebe, do you accept that the original court magistrate who convicted you of the offence of an attempted murder of Mr August, that he did so correctly, in other words that the finding he made that you are guilty of that offence is correct? MR MAJEBE What I did as a person who was opposing the government of the day, I did not regard that as breaking the law but the Boer government regarded it as law-breaking and I was prosecuted because of it, that is why I was found guilty by him. That is why I made this application for me to be here because I was not supposed to be prosecuted. MR SANDI As you are sitting there now Mr Majebe, do you accept that the finding made by the magistrate that you are guilty of an attempt to kill Mr August was correct? MR MAJEBE As I'm sitting here I am against that finding but unfortunately I don't have any power. That was done and the aims of that government were fulfilled. I'm opposing that. If I was not opposing that I wouldn't come here and ask for amnesty, I would be in prison. MR SANDI So you have come to ask for amnesty because the magistrate's finding that you were guilty of an attempt to kill Mr August is wrong? MR MAJEBE I am here with the aim of trying to show anyone that what I did at the time was not wrong to members of ANC because that is contained, even our documents are not against that, but anyone who is not a member of PAC will take that as a wrong action but I'm here with the aim of trying to do away with what used to happen during the old government of the Boers. I am not sure if you are satisfied sir. MR SANDI I'm not satisfied but I'll proceed to the next question. ADV SANDI Sorry Mr Sandi, before you proceed to another question. Mr Majebe, why didn't you tell the Court that you were acting in self-defence? Why didn't you tell the Court that there was this background of conflict between your organisation and the complainant's organisation and that it was in that context that you had attacked him? MR MAJEBE ADV SANDI Did you tell the Court that you were aware that the complainant was a member of the ANC? MR MAJEBE If there was a reason for me to do so I would do that but there was no reason because I was even against - I did not even admit that I hit him, but here I do admit that and I even give my reasons for doing that but in Court I did not even do that. I did not even admit to knowing him as a person who was hit or as a person who was a member of whatever. I said all the things that would save me from conviction. ADV SANDI Yes but you could not have convicted for saying this man had a firearm, he was trying to shoot me, I took the firearm away from him and here's the firearm as an exhibit. MR MAJEBE If I was collaborating with that government of the Boers I could have done so but unfortunately I was not working together with that government, therefore I could not do anything like that because he was going to gain at the end of the day. ADV SANDI Where is the firearm, what happened to the firearm? MR MAJEBE It was confiscated during a raid in the base. ADV SANDI Carry on sir. MR SANDI Mr Majebe today we learnt you issued the order to one of your colleagues to shoot Mr August. MR MAJEBE That is correct. MR SANDI Secondly we learnt today that you were commanding this operation to shoot and kill Mr August. MR MAJEBE Yes that is correct. MR SANDI Do you have the document that you yourself -no before I come to that question, do you have the application which you submitted to the Committee which you signed while you were in prison seeking amnesty. MR MAJEBE Yes it is here with me. MR SANDI Could you look at page 1 of that document. Do you see that on page 1 of that document you describe yourself as a PASO organiser? MR MAJEBE Yes that is correct. MR SANDI Elsewhere in the document you mention that you were trained in the camp as a member of APLA. MR MAJEBE That is correct. MR SANDI Now in this document, that is the application, you don't mention anything about the fact that you were a commander. MR MAJEBE Just repeat your question. MR SANDI In the application you made to the Committee you don't mention anything that you were a commander of operations. MR MAJEBE That is correct, it is not all the information that is contained in this paper. MR SANDI Who appointed you to that position of commander? MR MAJEBE The person who trained me. MR SANDI Has he got a name or not? MR MAJEBE He does have a name, it's Diyo. The name is Diyo. MR SANDI When did he give you that rank of commanding officer? MR MAJEBE That was in 1993. MR SANDI So at the time that you were involved in this incident relating to Mr August, you were this commanding officer having been appointed to that position in 1993? MR MAJEBE Yes that is correct. MR SANDI Now you had other people under your command? MR MAJEBE Yes that is correct. MR SANDI And Vuyasile Biko was one of them? MR MAJEBE That is not so. MR SANDI Was Vuyasile Biko a member of ANC and a member of APLA? MR MAJEBE I know him as a member of PAC. MR SANDI And Tekana Biko, was he a member of APLA? MR MAJEBE At the time he was a member of PASO and he was also in the task force. MR SANDI Now why didn't you mention this information in your application that you were appointed to the position of commander? MR MAJEBE The time was not yet right for me to explain that because as you look at this application you've got only a few lines to supply information. I was just mentioning things I saw them necessary to be contained here. MR SANDI But sir you were asked pertinently in the application to describe the capacity in which you committed the offence in respect of which you are asking for amnesty. MR MAJEBE Will you please show me that part here in this document? MR SANDI On page 1, paragraph B, that's where you state that you were a PASO organiser during the event and that you were also from the APLA camp. MR MAJEBE As you see this part, the only names that would fit in this part I inserted them but because of the space that was not enough I couldn't put anything further. MR SANDI And also in this application you don't make mention of the fact that you issued an order that Mr August be killed by one of your colleagues by shooting him. MR MAJEBE Yes that is correct but I don't think that there was a question that needed that type of an answer because I was just answering all the important questions as I knew that I would get a chance to answer other questions when I'm here. MR SANDI Look if you look at page 4 of the said application, on that page you state in detail what happened before Mr August was attacked. MR MAJEBE Yes that is correct. MR SANDI And nowhere do you mention that you issued an order. MR MAJEBE What I want to make clear to you is that when I was filling in this form no one was advising me as to how to go about it, I was just doing it myself. I will take last incidents and put them in front but if there was a person who would give me advice as to how to do it I could have done so, but unfortunately I did not know to fill in the form, that is why some of the things are not visible here. ADV SANDI Yes but surely Mr Majebe, you don't have to be told by anyone that you were an APLA commander having been appointed in 1993 by Diyo, do you? MR MAJEBE There was no need for that but I did not know that you would like to know that. If I knew I could have done so but unfortunately I did not know. I thought that you were going to ask me everything that is concerning Mr August's injuries, I did not know that you were going to investigate about me. I was just explaining the action, the one that I'm actually applying amnesty for, I did not know that the fact that I was a commander would be an issue here but if I'm requested to do so I could do that. ADV SANDI Have you mentioned that anywhere in your affidavit? MR MAJEBE Will you please repeat the question sir? ADV SANDI Maybe Mr Mbandazayo can assist us. MR MAJEBE Could the speaker please repeat the question? MR MBANDAZAYO Mr Chairperson, that's the first page of the affidavit. ADV SANDI Oh thank you. MR SANDI Now Mr Majebe I would like to go back to the incident as to what actually happened there. So when you saw Mr August, is it correct that on the day that you attacked him he was wearing a lumber jacket? MR MAJEBE He was wearing a track suit and a T-shirt. The track suit had an ANC badge on the side. MR SANDI The track suit was it short sleeved or what? MR MAJEBE It was a track pants with a T-shirt, a short sleeved T-shirt. MR SANDI And the T-shirt, was it tucked under the trousers? MR MAJEBE It was not tucked in. MR SANDI So firstly, you did not see Mr August threaten Ngulu Leko with a firearm? MR MAJEBE That is correct. MR SANDI You were not present at all at the time when this incident allegedly took place? MR MAJEBE That is correct. MR SANDI Now how did you get to know about this threatening of Ngulu Leko with a firearm? MR MAJEBE Mr Gcabashe was fixing the car when he saw Mr August drawing a gun on Ngulu Leko, as an elderly person he was very shocked. As we used to crack jokes with him, he went past us and he was very shocked. We were just joking and then he told us what happened, he told us the whole story. MR SANDI And you mentioned that Ngulu Leko is not a member of the PAC, it's his brother who was PAC ...(indistinct). MR MAJEBE That is correct. MR SANDI Now just before I deal with the next point I just want to clear that point, in your application you say that Ngulu Leko was a member of PAC. MR MAJEBE His brother was a member. I think that was a mistake because Ngule was still young at the time therefore he did not have a right to be a member but his brother was a member. I can say that he used to like the organisation because he grew up in front of us and he used to be around when we were discussing PAC matters, like a young boy always following his brother. MR SANDI He was eight years old at the time? MR MAJEBE Between eight and ten years of age. MR SANDI Did you accept that - you do say in your application that Ngulu Leko was a member of the PAC? At page 4 of the application. MR MAJEBE Yes I did mention that in my application. MR SANDI Mention it yourself? MR MAJEBE MR SANDI Before you assaulted Mr August you did not speak to Ngulu Leko? MR MAJEBE He was nowhere to be found at the time. MR SANDI Now can you tell the Committee, why is it that you are divulging for the first time this name of Mr Gcabashe in your application, why didn't you mention Gcabashe before? MR MAJEBE I think I forgot because when I mentioned Ngulu I was supposed to mention his name but if I did not do that maybe I forgot to do so. MR SANDI Does Mr Gcabashe live in Fort Beaufort? MR MAJEBE Yes that is correct. MR SANDI What is his full name, what are his full names? MR MAJEBE I know him as Makwesi Gcabashe, I don't know his real name but Gcabashe is his surname. MR SANDI So after Mr Gcabashe had spoken to you you went back to the place you were guarding and you as you say you were lying there on the grass? MR MAJEBE When Mr Gcabashe was telling us this we were not yet at that place. I want to explain this again, Mr Lucky August, we saw him for the very first time when we were next to the base sitting next to the offices as the offices were opposite to the houses of Mchizani's house, he was sitting next to his brother's house. He went past us and he went straight to his brother's house and he left the house and he took another direction to his home. From Luyanda Zote's house it is a third, - he went to a third, a fourth house from Luyanda Zote's house. As we were sitting there talking about this and we knew that he had bodyguards and Brigay came to us and we discussed and he told us. We did not mention anything to him, we did not tell him that we were going to attack Mr August, we just left and we just joked about the matter again and he left but something came to our minds that he had a gun and the fact that he threatened Luyanda and Luyanda was there and we was forced to go and do that because it became clear to us what he said during the day he was willing to do it but we weren't there to defend ourselves, we did not intend to injure him. He knew very well I did not have any personal grudge against him because I remember we were friends. The other day I gave him a tape recorder. I did not have a problem with him but I wanted him to stop what he was doing to my organisation that I loved so much. That was the reason for us to do that, that was the reason to end our friendship at the time but right now I do not hold any grudge against him. Even before I did not have a grudge. I hope that even my mother - I never allow even my mother to try to destroy my PAC organisation because no-one sent me to join PAC. I learnt a lot of things and I like it. That is why Mr Lucky August is in that condition. MR SANDI Mr Majebe, you saw this firearm, you yourself, you saw this firearm for the first time after you had attacked Mr August. MR MAJEBE MR SANDI So you saw the gun for the first time after you had assaulted him? MR MAJEBE Yes that is correct. MR SANDI Then you took the gun and ran away. MR MAJEBE I took the gun, I hit him again and I ran with the gun. MR MAJEBE After taking his gun I hit him. MR SANDI MR MAJEBE Are you talking about time, watch time or time of the year, what is it that you are talking about? MR SANDI It was at the moment when you saw him doing that? MR MAJEBE It was when he was approaching us. CHAIRPERSON You were defending your organisation at the time it was being under attack by what you call oppressors, correct? MR MAJEBE Yes that is correct. CHAIRPERSON There has been a change of government since, correct? MR MAJEBE There is a change in now. There is something that I can say, it a change in some of the things but not in everything. CHAIRPERSON We all agree but there has been a change of government, not so? MR MAJEBE Yes the change that I agree with is putting Africans in parliament to rubber stamp the things that were done by the government that oppressed us and be granted freedom to be involved in politics, but that was not the reason for us to fight at the time, that was something like that. CHAIRPERSON MR MAJEBE CHAIRPERSON Now are you able to live in this new South Africa peacefully? MR MAJEBE CHAIRPERSON Is Pan Africanist Congress not represented in Parliament? MR MAJEBE There are PAC members in Parliament but they are not part of the government of national unity but they are just there as an opposition party. CHAIRPERSON Okay, there is also a Constitution operative in this country that was not operative during the days of apartheid, not so? MR MAJEBE Yes that is correct. CHAIRPERSON MR MAJEBE Will you please repeat your question sir? CHAIRPERSON You said that during the time of this attack that you needed to get rid of the opposition because they were obstacles to the march of the PAC. MR MAJEBE Yes that is correct. CHAIRPERSON MR MAJEBE Yes that is correct. CHAIRPERSON That is because at times because other parties think differently, correct? MR MAJEBE That is correct. CHAIRPERSON MR MAJEBE CHAIRPERSON MR MAJEBE Will you please repeat the question, I have a problem with interpretation. CHAIRPERSON You say you will never support anything that goes against the policy of the PAC, correct? MR MAJEBE Yes that is correct. CHAIRPERSON MR MAJEBE CHAIRPERSON MR MAJEBE If the PAC loses votes what ..? Will you please repeat the question? CHAIRPERSON MR MAJEBE CHAIRPERSON Mr Sandi have you got any more questions? MR SANDI Thank you Mr Chairperson, I've got no more questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SANDI MR MAPOMA Chairperson, thank you, I don't have any questions. NO QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA MR DE JAGER MR MAJEBE It was burnt down during this incident. MR DE JAGER Why was it burnt down and by whom? MR MAJEBE It was burnt by the members of SANCO and COSAS members and ANC because Mr Duma was a member of PAC, that was the only reason. MR DE JAGER That week before this incident - this incident happened on a Saturday night or Sunday night, can you remember? MR MAJEBE MR DE JAGER Ja, but this incident now, the attack on August, was that a Saturday or a Sunday? MR MAJEBE It was on a Saturday because the attacks on our people was going on and we were expelled from school by COSAS and these comrades were perpetrators. That was already happening at the time, we were expelled from the school because COSAS was against PASO. They tried to change the community school into something else, that is where the conflict started. This conflict started between the PASO and the COSAS, the PASO that I was the organiser and the people from the outside interfered with pupils and they burnt down the houses of the PAC members. MR DE JAGER Yes I understand there was a conflict between the ANC and the PAC or it started with the conflict with PASO and COSAS and then it spilt over into the community, is that correct? MR MAJEBE That is correct. MR DE JAGER Right now the attack on Mr August when you hit him with the pick handle, was that on a Saturday or a Sunday? MR MAJEBE It was on a Saturday. MR DE JAGER Did you have a regional meeting of the PAC during that week before the Saturday? MR MAJEBE MR DE JAGER Yes but that was on the 23rd of February, so it was a day or two before the accident that you had reported it to the regional office? MR MAJEBE MR DE JAGER MR MAJEBE MR DE JAGER MR MAJEBE MR DE JAGER Okay then two days before he was attacked, you had a meeting with the regional offices. MR MAJEBE Your question is not clear sir, will you please repeat? MR DE JAGER Did you have a meeting with the regional offices of the PAC two days before you attacked Mr August? MR MAJEBE No we were never in a meeting, we were just reporting by phone, we would phone from the office and report to their office. They were not coming to us and held meetings. MR DE JAGER So you called them by phone, did you call them two days before the attack on Mr August? MR MAJEBE Yes that is correct. MR DE JAGER To whom did you speak? MR MAJEBE We did not ask his name, he was a comrade who was at the reception. We asked for the chairman of the region, he said he was not there and we wanted to know who else was in the office and he referred us to Mr Mpondo. We reported the matter and we wanted him to tell REC about what was happening. MR DE JAGER And what instructions did you get? MR MAJEBE MR DE JAGER Right. That very evening when you attacked Mr August, there was no attack on you or your comrades, was there? MR MAJEBE There were a lot of people whose houses where burnt, their furniture and everything, people were chased away from their homes. MR DE JAGER On that very day, is that correct? MR MAJEBE Before the incident to that time they would come from time to time. MR DE JAGER Right, now during that week you were armed with an AK47. MR MAJEBE During this time I would usually carry a pistol ...(intervention) INTERPRETER Could the speaker please repeat the answer. MR MAJEBE Okay, during the time that this happened, before the incident, I used to carry a pistol, a Tokarev then after the members of the community were organised to attack the PAC members from house to house, I then carried an AK47 but we knew that we were not going to just hit anyone, we were going to hit the leaders that were the perpetrators of all this or the people that organised this whole thing. MR DE JAGER MR MAJEBE MR DE JAGER Sir, I'm only asking you one question. That day when you attacked - you attacked him the Saturday evening, is that correct? You attacked Mr August Saturday evening? MR MAJEBE MR DE JAGER MR MAJEBE MR DE JAGER That was after you attacked Mr August? MR MAJEBE MR DE JAGER MR MAJEBE MR DE JAGER Right. We've heard that, you told me what happened on the Sunday, but on that Sunday you were carrying an AK47, is that correct? MR MAJEBE MR DE JAGER At what time on Saturday night? MR MAJEBE It was at night. ADV DE JAGER After you'd hit Mr August? MR MAJEBE After we had attacked Mr August. MR DE JAGER And before that you carried a Makeroff pistol? MR MAJEBE Correct. When we went to the township to find his comrades after we had hit him or attacked him. MR DE JAGER Did you carry a Makeroff pistol before the Saturday? MR MAJEBE No. MR DE JAGER MR MAJEBE INTERPRETER Could the speaker please start again? MR MAJEBE MR DE JAGER Okay now you were struggling for freedom at that stage to liberate the black people of South Africa from the oppressive white government, is that correct? MR MAJEBE Correct. MR DE JAGER Also fighting the same struggle? MR MAJEBE Correct. MR DE JAGER Now what do you want to achieve by attacking your own brothers in this political struggle? MR MAJEBE MR DE JAGER I understand that but at that time the political aim was to get the Boers out of the government, wasn't that so? MR MAJEBE We had nothing to do with taking the government out, the Boers, we just wanted our land that they killed our fathers for. MR DE JAGER MR MAJEBE MR DE JAGER ADV SANDI Now let us start with the murder of Nomangwane on the 24th February which you said was carried out by ANC-aligned members, was Lucky August one of those people? MR MAJEBE This is a very painful question because in my life I have never thought or dreamt that a comrade that has given themselves to the struggle be killed that way. Mr Lucky August was the leader of the whole incident. ADV SANDI Was he there when this person was killed? Did he also take part in the killing of this person? MR MAJEBE ADV SANDI Okay let us talk about another incident, that is when the house of Mr Gedde was burned down, was Lucky August one of the people who had done this? MR MAJEBE As I said, and I repeat it, when these things happened we were not there, we were chased out of the township, we were just going to the township to protect ourselves or to fight. They do whatever they want to do in our absence but we were clear in our minds that the people who caused all those incidents were the leaders. The people would say that they were obeying orders of their leaders; the leaders wanted those things to happen. This is why we decided to attack their leaders and not the crowds. ADV SANDI Was he there on the day the house of Mr Duma was attacked, do you know if he was there? MR MAJEBE ADV SANDI MR MAJEBE Those were students, Mr August was not a student. I saw Mr Grootboom, he was standing with his other comrades outside the school yard, they looked as if they were guarding something or against something. The COSAS members would go to them and chat with them, they looked like they were taking advice from them. When we lifted our hands and wanted to talk we were told that we were already chased out of the school and we had no say. ADV SANDI Are you able to point out any incident where you witnessed Lucky inciting members of his organisation or anyone against your organisation? Are you able to point out any incident of that nature? MR MAJEBE ADV SANDI Thank you Mr Majebe. CHAIRPERSON We will take the lunch adjournment now. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION THEMBISILE MAJEBE (s.u.o.) CHAIRPERSON Mr Mbandazayo have you got any re-examination for the witness? RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO Yes Mr Chairman, just a few points. Mr Majebe, am I correct that you attacked Mr August because of the political conflict which was there in Fort Beaufort between ANC and PAC? MR MAJEBE Yes that is correct. MR MBANDAZAYO Am I correct that the reason you were attacking was because you felt that as PAC you are unable to operate in Fort Beaufort because of the ANC? MR MAJEBE Yes that is correct. ADV SANDI Mr Mbandazayo, was it not his evidence that he was protecting himself as well as his organisation in the context of the conflict that was taking place there? MR MBANDAZAYO ADV SANDI MR MBANDAZAYO Yes Mr Chairperson. MR MAJEBE Yes that is correct. MR MBANDAZAYO Hence you took that decision that in order for it to exist and be able to fulfil its objectives you have to protect it and its members? MR MAJEBE Yes that is correct. MR MBANDAZAYO Thank you Mr Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MBANDAZAYO CHAIRPERSON Yes thank you. Have you got any other witness? MR MBANDAZAYO CHAIRPERSON Is that the applicant's case? MR MBANDAZAYO CHAIRPERSON Mr Sandi have you got any witnesses? MR SANDI Mr Chairperson, Mr August is available, I do not intend calling him unless you wish to hear him. CHAIRPERSON No no we have no intention of calling him but I must offer you the opportunity to call him if you so wish. MR SANDI I do not wish to call him. MR DE JAGER As a victim, are you opposing the application and if so on what grounds? MR SANDI The major ground is that the applicant for amnesty has not made full disclosure to the Committee of circumstances surrounding the attack upon Mr August and secondly even if it is accepted that there was this conflict between these two organisations in Fort Beaufort, they did not warrant the taking of such drastic measures as the applicant in this case did. CHAIRPERSON Do you intend to call any other witnesses? MR SANDI No Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON MR SANDI No. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mapoma, any witnesses that you intend calling. MR MAPOMA CHAIRPERSON WITNESS EXCUSED COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION CHAIRPERSON Mr Mbandazayo, do you want to add anything for the purposes before we consider the issues? MR MBANDAZAYO Yes Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON MR MBANDAZAYO ADDRESSES between ANC and PAC. I would use those major organisations Mr Chairperson knowing that they had structures which ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON By way of alliance or whatever, those were the key groupings. MR MBANDAZAYO CHAIRPERSON Would you agree that maybe even if it started as a student problem it developed into what we call basically a two party fight. MR MBANDAZAYO CHAIRPERSON MR MBANDAZAYO CHAIRPERSON MR MBANDAZAYO MR DE JAGER MR MBANDAZAYO Mr Chairperson without - I think there are two Bikos, the other one you are talking about is not the one who is religious that he was talking about, I'm not sure, Mr Chairman. MR DE JAGER MR MBANDAZAYO MR DE JAGER MR MBANDAZAYO CHAIRPERSON Do you accept that the medical evidence that was produced to us has not been disputed? MR MBANDAZAYO CHAIRPERSON Can you address us on the issue of proportionality, whether we should consider it and if so how it is applicable to this one? MR MBANDAZAYO CHAIRPERSON MR MBANDAZAYO CHAIRPERSON MR MBANDAZAYO CHAIRPERSON MR MBANDAZAYO CHAIRPERSON MR MBANDAZAYO ADV SANDI MR MBANDAZAYO Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Chairperson my contention is that if you approve that something should be done, even if we are not involved there, your approval, definitely you are the only person who is responsible for that because others just carry orders. But the question is, he did not prescribe the way it should be done and the question of defence Mr Chairperson is subject to interpretation whether it means you have to wait for somebody to attack you before you defend yourself. ADV SANDI But surely Mr Mbandazayo you ...(indistinct) use a hammer to kill an ant, can you? MR MBANDAZAYO MR DE JAGER MR MBANDAZAYO MR DE JAGER Ja not legally but in that situation that ...(intervention) MR MBANDAZAYO CHAIRPERSON It goes further because as I understand the evidence it was an attempt to protect the PAC, not specifically in retaliation to a particular attack but generally the PAC was under siege. MR MBANDAZAYO Yes Mr Chairman the PAC - at that time although this was taking place according, I think we got it correctly Mr Chairperson, though this incident happened, this particular one, already there was a feud which was going on, people were displaced, they were no longer in their homes so it was part of what they were doing that they wanted also to operate so they had to respond to that. CHAIRPERSON MR MBANDAZAYO CHAIRPERSON MR MBANDAZAYO Fortunately Mr Chairperson he is still alive. CHAIRPERSON MR MBANDAZAYO ADV SANDI MR MBANDAZAYO ADV SANDI The sharp side of it had been taken off. MR MBANDAZAYO CHAIRPERSON Anything more? MR MBANDAZAYO Chairperson I have nothing to add unless the Committee wants more. CHAIRPERSON That's enough. Mr Sandi I would just like to have the address of Mr August please. MR SANDI I beg your pardon Chairperson? CHAIRPERSON The address of Mr August, can you give it to me please, have you got it with you? MR SANDI MR A CHAIRPERSON Carry on. MR SANDI It's 111 New Tinis Zwide Location, Fort Beaufort. CHAIRPERSON Do they still use words like Location? Is that a formal address, Location? MR SANDI Yes. CHAIRPERSON Fort Beaufort you said? MR SANDI That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Have you got a telephone number perhaps? MR SANDI ADV DE JAGER MR SANDI CHAIRPERSON Is that P O Box number the Advice Office number? MR SANDI CHAIRPERSON Okay, we will adjourn for a short while. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION F I N D I N G CHAIRPERSON The applicant makes application for amnesty in terms of Act 34 of 1995 in respect of an assault on Mr Lucky August at Fort Beaufort on or about the 20th of February 1993. The applicant testified that political tension developed at the Nebiba High School, a local secondary school at which the applicant was a student at some stage. Briefly it seems that the matter of admissions to that school took on quasi political proportions and consequently the differences between the Congress of South African Students and the Pan African Student Organisation was underscored by the problems related to admission to the school. During the confrontation and as a result thereof a series of attacks on persons and property occurred. Mr Lucky who seemed to be a member of the grouping aligned to the African National Congress was one such person who was attacked. He says it was during the night though at times he indicated that there was sufficient light to see certain things. I will refer to the lighting presently. The applicant said that he was armed with a pick handle at the time, his colleagues were also armed with pick handles and one of whom also had a firearm. The plan was that the one armed with a firearm was to have shot at Mr August and ensure his death. It seems that Mr August appeared in the street along which the applicant and his group lay. Mr August was thought to be coming directly towards the applicants group. It seems according to the applicant, that one of his colleagues who was armed with a firearm got cold feet and did not proceed with shooting at Mr August. As a result of touching his waist as if to produce something, Mr August may have given the impression that he was producing some type of arm. The applicant immediately jumped up when Mr August was near him and attacked Mr August by hitting him twice in the face with the pick handle that he had; as a result thereof he fell. The applicant says he then disarmed Mr August of a .38 firearm which he found in the vicinity of his waist. Thereafter the applicant hit Mr August twice more on the head while he was still lying on the ground and they all left. Section 20 of the Act prescribes that amnesty shall be granted provided the deed for which application is made was committed for political reasons and the applicant must have made full disclosure of the actions, and I include motive for it, leading to the acts for which the application is made. INTERPRETER Could the speaker please go a bit slower? CHAIRPERSON INTERPRETER CHAIRPERSON THE APPLICATION IS THEREFORE REFUSED . MR LUCKY AUGUST</B> whose address is given to us as P O Box 117, Fort Beaufort is DECLARED A VICTIM as defined by the Act and it is recommended that he is treated as such in terms of the Act. This session is adjourned until tomorrow 9a.m. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS