amntrans AMNESTY HEARING 1998-10-13 JOHANNESBURG 2 JERRY CHIMANJANA MOTAHUNG https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=52898&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1998/98101215_jhb_joha2.htm CHAIRPERSON We are proceeding to the application of Jerry Chimanjana Motahung. We will just allow the persons at the back to leave. ADV STEENKAMP I am sorry for the commotion Mr Chairman. It is for the record, Tuesday, 13 October 1998. It is a sitting of the Amnesty Committee. The panel is chaired by myself, Denzel Potgieter. I am assisted on my right by Adv Gcabashe and on my left by Mr Sibanyoni. Adv Steenkamp? ADV STEENKAMP Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, I am the Evidence Leader, I am also appearing for Patricia Mtshwene, the deceased in this matter's father and mother, the victims Mary Mtshwene and the father, Mr Tranger J. Thalelo. For the record Mr Chairman, they aren't opposing the application of Mr Motahung, they would like however, to reserve their right to ask certain questions Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Adv Steenkamp. Mr Mhlaba? MR MHLABA Thank you Mr Chairman. Thank you Mr Chairman, I am appearing for the applicant in this matter, and he wishes to testify in South Soto. JERRY CHIMANJANA MOTAHUNG (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Sibanyoni. Mr Motahung, have you got a problem with your eyes? MR MOTAHUNG I only have problems with exposure to the light. CHAIRPERSON Is it a medical condition? MR MOTAHUNG Yes, it is a medical condition sir. CHAIRPERSON Are you - you are not able to do without the dark glasses? MR MOTAHUNG I can take them off sir. CHAIRPERSON Can you, okay. All right. Mr Mhlaba? EXAMINATION BY MR MHLABA Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Motahung, you are the applicant in this matter and you are applying for amnesty in respect of an offence of murder, attempted murder and possession of ammunition, is that correct? MR MOTAHUNG Yes, that is correct. MR MHLABA And your application for amnesty in respect of the murder case, does that relate to the death of Patricia Mtshwene? MR MOTAHUNG That is correct sir. MR MHLABA And your application in respect of attempted murder, does it relate to the victim being - if the Chair could bear with me - does it relate to Gladness Mfelasi? MR MOTAHUNG Yes, that is correct sir. MR MHLABA I have noted that you were also tried and convicted in respect of the assault to Patricia Mtshwene and Gladness Mfelasi. Is it your desire to bring an application for amendment to include these offences? MR MOTAHUNG Yes, I am suggesting that we should make that amendment sir. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mhlaba, will you just repeat that, I just want to make a note, can you just give us that detail again please. MR MHLABA The assault in respect of Patricia Mtshwene and Gladness Mfelasi. CHAIRPERSON Is it the same people, the same complainants in respect of, or the victims in respect of the murder and attempted murder? MR MHLABA That is correct Mr Chairman, it will emerge that they were assaulted prior to the murder and the attempted murder. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR MHLABA Thank you Mr Chairman. I will want to apply on behalf of the applicant for an amendment to incorporate the assault on the two victims. CHAIRPERSON Adv Steenkamp, is there any objection? ADV STEENKAMP No objection, thank you Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. The amendment is granted Mr Mhlaba. MR MHLABA Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Motahung, for record purposes can you tell the Committee when were you born and where? MR MOTAHUNG I was born in 1972 on the 15th of September. I was born in Vosloorus, in Boksburg. I started school in Dennilton from Sub A up to standard 3. MR MHLABA Mr Motahung, I want to take you back to your application, page 2 of the paginated bundles, item 5. Your date of birth is reflected as the 15th of November 1974, do you have an explanation for that? MR MOTAHUNG Yes. When I was arrested, I took advantage that if I decrease my age, I would, that would be a mitigating factor in court. That is why I wrote 1974 instead of 1972. My correct date of birth is 1972, on the 15th of November. MR MHLABA Thank you Mr Motahung, may you then proceed and explain to us where you schooled and how you proceeded? MR MOTAHUNG I attended school in Dennilton where I began with Sub A up to standard 3. When I was busy with standard 3, I left back to the township in Vosloorus. I went to another school which is called Nagin primary school. I have already passed standard 3. When I arrived at Nagin, I continued with standard 4 until I passed standard 5. After standard 5, I went to a certain high school called Erasmus. I did standard 6 there. During that time, I was recruited by my friend, he recruited me to the COSAS movement. I played a role in COSAS up to the point where I became a member of the SRC. SRC falls under COSAS. After some time, violence erupted in the township. It started with a march, protest march where students engaged in the burning of the Councillor's house. Then the police started to search for us. My name was mentioned by the police amongst those students who were wanted by the police. I consulted with some of my friends who were students. I left South Africa, that is in 1989. I went to some of the African States. MR MHLABA Can you proceed? MR MOTAHUNG I went to exile and joined the ANC. When I arrived in exile, I obtained military training. After they came back after the suspension of the armed struggle, we were not doing anything in the military camps. We were informed that we were going to be incorporated in the South African Defence Force. When I left Eringa I went to Dagau. It is one of the ANC camps. After I left Dagau, we left in a group. We left to Mazimbo. The reason for me to leave Mazimbo is that I wanted to attend school so that I would keep myself busy until I filled the form to be repatriated, that was in 1991. I returned to South Africa, that was on the 17th of December 1991. The situation was not stable when I arrived in South Africa, or when I arrived at home. Immediately when we arrived, we found that our area was covered with violence. In that violence there was a conflict between ANC members and IFP members. During that violence, I consulted with some of my friends and they were also members of the ANC. I asked them about the situation as to whether what is the cause of the conflict. I observed that the situation was not normal, that I am not satisfied with the situation about the conflict between ANC and IFP. IFP was launching attacks in the township, but they were using surprise attacks. It happened that day that I was having a conversation with my friend, who is Joseph Mofekeng and Vusi and Jabo, that is Gyza. We were discussing about the possible solutions, particularly to build, to formulate Self Defence Units so that we could protect the community because people were killed in numbers. They were killed by Inkatha members. Vusi told me that he has an AK47 with him. At that time, I was receiving money from SACR, that was about R800-00 or at times they would give me R1 200-00. Because of my observations about the situation, I met with a certain Mozambican, then I bought a gun from that Mozambican person. The gun I bought is a Toceroff. He wanted R800-00 for that gun. I gave him that R800-00. We kept on discussing with some members of the Youth League. They were saying the guns we have, are not enough. Let us try to make a fundraising so that we should buy another AK, so that we would have three AK's, so that when we were attacked, we would be able to mobilise. I made an initiative that we should consult with the business people, so that we should explain to them about the situation and about violence and the conflict about ANC and IFP and that the IFP is attacking in the township. We were able to raise some money. We bought other two AK47's. There were three with the one which was brought by Vusi. After some days, IFP was continuing with the attacks in the township. On the 16th of April 1994, we were coming from Basotho with some of my friends, we had a certain mission to do. We were on the ...(indistinct) street. At the end of the ...(indistinct) street, there is a T-junction. When we arrived at the T-junction, when we saw Patricia Mtshwene and Gladness Mfelasi. They were coming from a shoemaker, that is next to a saloon, that is at ...(indistinct) street. They boarded the taxi. I am the one who saw them. I had my Toceroff which I bought from the person from Mozambique. We pulled them off from the taxi. After that, we started kicking them. We hit them with stones. We hit them with stones. When I looked round, I saw people looking. I wanted to shoot Gladness Mfelasi. A certain man appeared just on the street of ...(indistinct) and Dibisu Street. That person was a local driver. He was driving a private car. From there I saw people coming closer. I informed my friends who are members of the Youth League, that they should leave, you see that people are looking at us. I said to Gyza and Jabo that they should go to Basotho. I myself and ...(indistinct) would go up to Jakothu, which is the next street next to Pankyi Drive. There was a certain house of Jakothu Street where we used to put our guns there. I said to them we would meet in the evening. Left together with Pankyi. We went to Jakothu Street where were used to put our guns. When I arrived there, I took an AK47. Pankyi had a gun on his person. We followed Gladness Mfelasi and Patricia Mtshwene, we saw them from the opposite street. We were looking at them when we approached through Jakothu Street. I arrived there, then I told Pankyi to stay at the gate, then I entered and pulled an AK47. I pulled off the magazine, then I closed the safety pin. I put the cassette on me. Because they were running on the ...(indistinct) Drive, when they were running, they came to a four way stop, they were following Denella where they were staying. Patricia Mtshwene was staying at Denella and Mfelasi was staying at the Mazulung Section. When we arrived at the four way stop, that area was crowded by people. I crossed the street, I saw them but they were not able to see me. When they wanted to cross ...(indistinct) Street, I advanced and I crossed ...(indistinct) Drive, then I followed them. I was together with Pankyi. I shot Patricia Mtshwene, I shot her with three bullets. She fell on the ground. I shot Gladness Mfelasi with three bullets. She fell on the ground. I informed Pankyi that he should look for people who wanted to see what was happening. If a person appears, try to scare him off by shooting in the air, so that people would not be able to identify us. I had a cap. After shooting those two people, I pulled the gun, the after that the bullet went off, then I returned the magazine, then from there, we jumped the fence, we went to the main road, which was facing the road, that is M.C. Botha Street. We went to ...(indistinct) street, then we went to Basotho Section, then we stayed in a certain house. That is where we met with another two guys, who I told them to go to Basotho Section. That is all about my testimony. MR MHLABA Mr Motahung, can you explain to the Committee the reasons why you attacked Gladness and Patricia? MR MOTAHUNG In 1991, when I returned from exile, up to 1995, there was a conflict in Vosloorus. Inkatha was attacking the people in the township. They were using surprise attacks because they would come and shoot, and leave. Gladness Mfelasi together with Patricia Mtshwene were members of the people whom we were fighting with, that is members of the IFP and their uncle, who is Gugu Mtshwene. The other person who seems to be the brother to Patricia Mtshwene, was a member of Inkatha. Patricia and Gladness were members. On that particular day when we saw them, because we were fighting with Inkatha, because we discussed with members of the Youth League that we should shoot all members of Inkatha who are in the township, because they give the people, Inkatha members who are in the hostels, about the information. We decided that if we could kill those who were staying in the township, therefore we would be able to see the people who are attacking the community in the township. We killed those people. After killing those people, attacks decreased. The situation was not like before after we killed Patricia and Gladness Mfelasi. They were members of the IFP. I think it was at the funeral of Patricia Mtshwene where we were able to identify them and then we confirmed that these people are members of the IFP because we investigated this matter before, but we were not clear about the information we had received. When we saw them at the funeral of Moses, that is Moses Mtshwene, that is where we believed and confirmed that they were members of IFP because they wore IFP T-shirts and then they had guns. MR MHLABA Is it your case Mr Motahung, that you killed Patricia Mtshwene and attempted to kill Gladness Mfelasi because they were members of the IFP and that was because, and that the ANC was at war with the IFP? MR MOTAHUNG That is correct. MR MHLABA Can you explain to the Committee where was the IFP concentrated as opposed to the ANC supporters? That is maybe let me put a leading question to you, would you say that the IFP supporters and members were in the majority in the township or in the hostels? MR MOTAHUNG There are members of the IFP who were in the townships, but they were not exposing themselves that they were members of the IFP. Their stronghold was in the hostel. In the location, in the townships, there are some members of IFP, although they did not expose their identity. MR MHLABA Before this incident, did you or any of your fellow members of the liberation movement, have certain dealings with either Patricia Mtshwene or Gladness Mfelasi? MR MOTAHUNG May you please repeat your question, I am not able to follow? MR MHLABA Before the day of this incident, can you explain whether Gladness Mfelasi and or Patricia Mtshwene had certain dealings with your political organisation, or within the political organisation? MR MOTAHUNG They had certain dealings. One I remember well, in funerals in 1992, funerals of the people who were killed by the hitsquads and those who were killed by the IFP, I used to see them during those funerals. The person that I used to see at those funerals was Gladness Mfelasi. MR MHLABA Other than seeing them at the funerals, how did you come to know Patricia Mtshwene and Gladness Mfelasi, did you know them? Explain how you came to know each one of them. My question was Mr Motahung, did you before this incident and except for seeing them at the funerals, did you know this Patricia Mtshwene and Gladness Mfelasi, and if that is the case, I want you to explain for how long did you know them, and how. MR MOTAHUNG I knew them. While I was still attending school, I used to see them during the athletics meetings at the stadium. That is when I was still at the secondary school. MR MHLABA Did anyone of them participate in any of the structures which you were an affiliate to? MR MOTAHUNG They never participated, they were just supporters, because I used to see them only at the ANC funerals. MR MHLABA Are you saying ANC funerals or IFP funerals? MR MOTAHUNG I used to see them at ANC funerals. I used to see them at funerals of the ANC members, and thereafter I saw them at the funeral of one of the members of the IFP. MR MHLABA Did Patricia and Gladness pose any threat to the well being of the political organisation which you were trying to further the objectives thereof? MR MOTAHUNG They never had any interference in our work. MR MHLABA Then why were they attacked Mr Motahung, can you just recap on that, because it is not very clear? MR MOTAHUNG Patricia Mtshwene and Gladness Mfelasi were members of the IFP, we saw them at the funeral of the IFP and we at the township were fighting against the IFP and these people of the IFP were attacking people and killing people in the township. That is when we realised that the people who were staying in the township, were giving information to other people in the hostel, who were members of the IFP. That is why we took a decision that these people should be killed, because they were giving out the information to the people who were staying at the hostel. These were the people who were more dangerous because they would monitor our movements and give information to those who were living at the hostel. ADV GCABASHE Could I just ask Mr Motahung, did you have evidence that Patricia and Gladness were involved in those spying activities, that they were giving information to people at the hostel? MR MOTAHUNG We didn't have evidence to that effect, but our understanding was that the people who were staying in the township, were more dangerous than those in the hostel, because they were giving out information to the people at the hostel, and even the uncle of Mtshwene was also an Inkatha hitman and the other one who is deceased. ADV GCABASHE Thank you. MR MOTAHUNG All right. MR MHLABA Thank you Mr Chairman, I've got no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MHLABA CHAIRPERSON Questions Adv Steenkamp? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY ADV STEENKAMP Thank you Mr Chairman, I've got just two or three questions. On behalf of the family, they would like to know why was it necessary for you to shoot an unarmed woman, who never as far as they are concerned, were never a member of the IFP? She was never active in any political organisation or any political dealings in the township. Why was it necessary for you to kill her, to shoot her? MR MOTAHUNG Patricia Mtshwene and Gladness Mfelasi, Gugu Mtshwene, Moses Mtshwene, all those people I have counted were living in the township, I know them very well. Like I have already explained, I used to see them at the athletic meetings at the stadium. They were involved in politics. If I remember well, even Gugu Mtshwene, it happened that one day he was involved in an attack with other members of the IFP from the hostel, and that is when we realised that these people who lives in the township, were members of the IFP, were dangerous because they were giving out the information. Therefore we have to attack them. That is the reason why I shot them. That is Gladness Mfelasi and Patricia Mtshwene. ADV STEENKAMP Then they would also like to know if it was ANC policy to just go and kill other people who happen to be not in the same political belief or party as yourself? MR MOTAHUNG Can you please repeat your question again? ADV STEENKAMP I will do so. MR MOTAHUNG I have a problem with this device, because sometimes it cuts. Yes, you may proceed. ADV STEENKAMP Thank you sir. The question I would just like to pose again to you, the family would like to know if it was ANC policy just to kill people who happen to be not of the same political orientation as yourself or not to be a member of the same political party as yourself? Was it policy just to kill those people? MR MOTAHUNG No, it was not the ANC policy, but if you remember well, the training that I received, the MK policy says that when you are a guerilla or a soldier of MK, in some cases you have to use your own discretion and take your own initiatives. I was not sent by the ANC to go and kill those people. That was my own initiatives as a member of the ANC. ADV STEENKAMP Mr Chairman, I would like to ask permission to ask this next question, although the applicant is not applying for amnesty for this. He is referring on page 3 and as well as the evidence in chief, to another family member, Mr Moses Mtshwene. My instructions are that I have to ask the applicant if he knows what happened to Mr Moses Mtshwene, who died ten days after the deceased, who is the victim in this matter, Patricia, if that could be allowed? Thank you Mr Chairman. Sir, you referred to Mr Moses Mtshwene, that is also the son or the brother, I mean, of the deceased, Patricia, are you aware of this? MR MOTAHUNG That is correct. ADV STEENKAMP My information is that this person was killed ten days after his sister was killed. Do you have any information or do you know how he was killed and if possible, by whom? MR MOTAHUNG I don't know how he was killed or who killed him. The only thing that I know about Moses is that he was given a funeral by the IFP. ADV STEENKAMP Then lastly the family will deny that the deceased was ever a member of the ANC or ever partook then in any IFP political rallies whatsoever. Thank you Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV STEENKAMP ADV GCABASHE Mr Motahung, I understand you to say that Patricia and Gladness were shot at because you suspected them of informing the IFP of township ANC activities, yes, is that correct? MR MOTAHUNG That is correct. ADV GCABASHE Now, had you as the small grouping of SDU activists, taken a decision to deal with all informers or was this an isolated incident? I just want to understand that? MR MOTAHUNG We met sometimes and we discussed this. We discussed the issue of the attacks in the township and we were aware that they had information. When we were patrolling, they never came to the township, but the day when we do not patrol, they will come and attack. That is when we decided that the people who belong to the IFP who lived in the township, were operating underground in the township, are the same people who were giving information to the people who were living at the hostel. That is what made us to shoot them. They were all members of IFP, all the people that I have mentioned, are all members of IFP. I do not doubt that. ADV GCABASHE Now, tell me, apart from Patricia and Gladness, as a group of SDU activists, did you also then shoot other people who were informing in the same manner? I just want to know if it was a consistent thing you were doing, or just this was the only time you had an opportunity. Just help me to understand that. MR MOTAHUNG After shooting these two people, we didn't continue killing people, because after this incident, we realised that the attacks were decreasing and the situation was not changing in the township. We decided that we were not longer going to continue because now the situation was now becoming normal. ADV GCABASHE How long after this incident were you arrested? MR MOTAHUNG This happened on the 16th, I was arrested in April. I am not quite sure whether it is on the 23rd or the 25th, but it is somewhere there. I cannot remember clearly the exact date, but it is between the 20th onwards. ADV GCABASHE How did you come to be arrested? MR MOTAHUNG I was going around with some, a friend of mine called Sam, we were at Sebenza and the people stopped us and they got the bullets from me and they arrested me. They told me that they had been hunting down, looking after me. They took me to the police station. They beat me. ADV GCABASHE Thank you Mr Motahung, thank you Chair. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Mhlaba, re-examination? MR MHLABA No re-examination Mr Chairman, thank you. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MHLABA . CHAIRPERSON Is that the case for the applicant? MR MHLABA Certainly Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Any witnesses? ADV STEENKAMP No thank you Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Would you please like to address us Mr Mhlaba? MR MHLABA IN ARGUMENT Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, it is my submission that the applicant here has met the requirements for the granting of an amnesty. The application form, I submit it is in order. I further submit that there was full disclosure on the part of the applicant. I just want to deal with the aspect of political objective. Initially it was a little obscure where the political motive was, but it became apparent that in view of the fact that the African National Congress was at war with the IFP in the East Rand then, anybody who was seen to be associated with the IFP, was regarded as frustrating the objectives of the ANC. It is on that basis that this applicant committed these offences. I will further wish to draw the Committee's attention to the fact that I submit, the meaning of the wording of the Act, suggests that the test which needs to be used, it is a subjective one as opposed to an objective one. Objectively it may appear that there was no motive, whereas on the part of the applicant here, he believed that this person was an enemy of the ANC, and it may further Mr Chairman, transpire that the victims were not members of the IFP or supporters thereof at all, but in his heart of hearts, he believed that they were supporters and sympathizers of the IFP and therefore a stumbling block to the objectives which the ANC sought to achieve. It is on those basis Mr Chairman, that I submit that he has met the requirements of the granting of amnesty and accordingly request that it be granted to him. Thank you Mr Chairman. ADV GCABASHE Mr Mhlaba, can you just address the question of proportionality in these circumstances, considering the evidence that was available to the applicant at that time. Was this a proportionate act or was it, what would you relate that proportionality to, the circumstances of the time. Please address us on that. MR MHLABA Thank you Mr Chairman. It is not the case of the applicant that there was proportionality there, but Mr Chairman, I will want to submit on behalf of the applicant, that this information gathering process, was not as transparent as it is in these days. On mere suspicion, on a rumour circulating, the applicant has acted and if such rumours circulated Mr Chairman, that the deceased and the other victim, passed information over to the IFP, it could not be easily ignored. To stop them from passing such information, the applicant viewed it to be necessary to kill them. CHAIRPERSON Should we judge the question of proportionality in view of the overall situation, where numbers of people were killed in this conflict and not necessarily limit it to the circumstances of this particular incident where these two persons got killed? MR MHLABA That is correct. It is my submission Mr Chairman, that the passing over of information from one camp to the other, may by its very nature, look trivial, but the consequences thereof, may result in what the applicant was fearing, that the Inkatha was going to attack the ANC supporters in the township. I would submit that this piece of information or this conduct of passing over of information from one camp to the other, should be viewed in a very, in a trivial way. It is very substantial, and I will further submit that I see some degree of proportionality to the subsequent conduct of the applicant here. CHAIRPERSON In other words if subsequent to this particular attack, the overall attacks had diminished as the applicant had indicated, that it be a relevant consideration in weighing up the question of proportionality? If the one incident leads to stopping a much larger number of incidents, then that would be something that one should take into account when looking at the proportionality in these circumstances? Is that your submission? MR MHLABA That is my submission Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Just one other issue which we had raised, one legal point. Is the position not such that the applicant has to show that he acted in good faith, he acted bona fide in what he did, so that what we have to do is to look at what was available to him, look at the situation that prevailed, look at how that information impacted upon the applicant in his, in that particular context and then to consider the question whether under all those circumstances, the conclusions which he had drawn, were bona fide in good faith or not, so that you take into account not only objective, or not only subjective, but both. You look at the overall situation, you look at his state of mind, you look at the circumstances which applied, you look at the rumour, you look at the information which is available to him, his belief that the brother was an IFP hitman and that sort of thing? So that what we have here is not as in the normal legal situation, as we know it, a cut and dried, either objective of subjective test, but that it is rather a combination of looking at everything, trying to come to a fair decision in all the circumstances of the case? MR MHLABA I will definitely agree with the Chair and add that the bona fides of the applicant here are certainly not in doubt. This is displayed in the manner in which he has articulated the event, and the full disclosure which he has effected before the Committee. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Have you got any other submissions? MR MHLABA No, thank you Mr Chairman, I have not any. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Adv Steenkamp, any address? ADV STEENKAMP IN ARGUMENT Mr Chairman, just one or two things. Although the victims are in principle not opposing the application, it is still the view of the victims, the family at least, that the applicant must carry the onus of at least convincing the Committee that he was able to meet all the requirements of the Act. It is the view of the family at least, that the act of the applicant was clearly not done with any political motive whatsoever, he was a trained soldier. In the circumstances, he attacked a person on his own account, he wasn't really quite sure whether or not she was active in any political actions whatsoever. Furthermore, it is also the view of the family that the act of the applicant was not proportionate to the political objective sought and therefore he is not meeting all the requirements of the Act as stipulated, he could not discharge the onus as placed upon him by the Act, and his application must therefore fail. As you wish Mr Chairman, thank you. CHAIRPERSON Is it common cause that there was this conflict which the applicant referred to between the ANC and the IFP in that particular area? ADV STEENKAMP Yes Mr Chairman, that can be taken as common cause. Thank you Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mhlaba, do you wish to add anything further? MR MHLABA I've got nothing to add Mr Chairman, thank you. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Well, that concludes the testimony and the arguments in this matter. Again, we would need some time to formulate a decision and again we will communicate that decision to the parties once it is available. Can we use the opportunity to thank the family for having attended the proceedings. We hope having been given a better insight into the particular incident in question. Of course we are indebted to your assistance Mr Mhlaba in this matter. The decision of the panel is then reserved in this matter and will be made available in due course. ADV STEENKAMP As you wish Mr Chairman, thank you. CHAIRPERSON Now, it is late in the day. I know that you had one matter which seems to have been a formality. ADV STEENKAMP Mr Chairman, I would suggest if you would allow me, that I rather deal with this matter early tomorrow morning, I can confirm certain documentation I am waiting for, and I think it is an appropriate time now rather, to deal with this matter tomorrow morning. That will be the role for today and if I may take the opportunity Mr Chairman, on behalf of the victims and the family in all the cases today, to thank you yourself and the Honourable Committee members, the families are indebted to you. Thank you Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Then just one final issue, I know that Mr Mhlaba is also appearing for the applicants in one of the matters which remain on the role and from what has been brought to my attention, there is not altogether clarity around the fate of those applications. I sincerely hope that you would be in a position to advise us tomorrow what the situation is with that remaining matter as well so that we are able to at least plan the rest of our session here. We will now adjourn and reconvene tomorrow morning at 9 o'clock. We are adjourned. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS