amntrans AMNESTY HEARING 1998-10-14 PORT ELIZABETH 3 WILLY LITHO SNOEK https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=52905&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1998/98101216_pe_portel3.htm CHAIRPERSON Before I start I would like to just introduce the panel. On my far right is Mr Elan Lax, an attorney from Petermaritzburg, on my immediate right is Advocate Bosman who is from Cape Town, on my left is Dr Tsotsi who is an attorney from Port Elizabeth and I am Selwyn Miller, a judge from the Transkei Division of the High Court. I like the representatives please to place themselves on record. MR MBANDAZAYO CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Mbandazayo. MS PATEL Thank you Mr Chairperson. I am Ramula Patel Leader of Evidence for the Amnesty Committee. CHAIRPERSON And Ms Patel just for the record, the victims, are they not represented by their own representative? MS PATEL CHAIRPERSON Thank you Ms Patel. CHAIPERSON EXPLAINS INTERPRETATION EQUIPMENT MR A MALLETT Mr Mbandazayo would you then like to commence? MR MBANDAZAYO Thank you Mr Chairperson. My first applicant is Willy Snoek, may he be sworn in Mr Chairperson? CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Snoek do you wish to be sworn in or do you wish to make an affirmation? WILLY LITHO SNOEK (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Snoek, the affidavit which is in front of you is also before the Honourable Committee. Do you confirm that the affidavit which is before the Committee was made by yourself and that you abide by its contents. MR SNOEK That is correct CHAIRPERSON Mr Mbandazayo I think it will be convenient then if we mark this affidavit Exhibit A. MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Chairperson subject to the correction of the Committee, normally I don't know if the Committee would like me to go through the full affidavit or ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON I think perhaps for the purposes of record it is not a very long affidavit, I think we can go through it Mr Mbandazayo. MR MBANDAZAYO Thank you Mr Chairperson, I'll do that. The affidavit reads thus "I, the undersigned, William Litho Snoek do hereby make an oath and states that I am the applicant in this matter. The facts to which I depose are true and correct and within my personal knowledge unless the context states otherwise. I was born on the 4th April 1962, Steytlerville, Eastern Cape. I left school at standard 7 in 1978 due to financial problems. In 1979 I worked at Enterprise in Uitenhage and in 1980 I was arrested for dealing in dagga and I was convicted and sentenced to two years nine months imprisonment. I was released in 1983. In May 1983 I was employed as a labourer by a building contractor until 1984. On the 11th of February 1984 I was convicted of assault with intent to do grievous bodily harm and I was sentenced to 15 months imprisonment and I was released in January 1985. In June and July 1986 I was convicted of dealing in dagga and sentenced to two and a half and three and a half years respectively and I was released in February 1988. In April 1988 I was arrested and sentenced for using a car without the owner's consent and I was sentenced to two years imprisonment and I was released in January 1990. I joined PAC in 1965 to AZANYO. I was recruited to PAC by Timothy Janje, though I did not join immediately and I joined after I visited Transkei and I met Waters Tobuti. I did my basic military training in Manfre under the command of Wesile Nxolo. I came back before completing my training as I wanted to leave the country. I then participated in the activities of the PAC in Uitenhage under the leadership of Timothy Janje. At the time there was a political conflict in Uitenhage between the PAC and ANC. One day I was approached by Tamsagqa Arthus Shikila who told me that they needed weapons to protect themselves in the conflict; I promised to organise something for him. I then approached Mr Janje and told him about this and he told me to approach Mandla Nkonki as he is the person who deals with matters of security. I met Mandla Nkonki and also told him a place where we can get arms; he instructed me to go ahead. I then one day approached Tamsagqa and asked him to accompany me to a place where we can get weapons. I asked Matthews Bosani to drop us in Steytlerville; we then went to Gert's Kraal Farm which was owned by Felix Sharp; we arrived at the farm about 12 midnight. We entered the first farm and there were no people and managed to get one firearm. We then proceeded to the second farm of Mr Sharp with the purpose of getting a motor vehicle to take us to Uitenhage. We broke into the garage and pushed the car out of the garage. We tried to start it but in vain. We decided to wait until the morning for Mr Sharp to come out but his wife came out first. I pointed at her with the firearm and she screamed. I threw her on the ground and closed her mouth and also assaulted her with the firearm. We tied her and instructed Tamsangqa to guard her. I went to Sharp's house and met him in the kitchen and assaulted him and also tied him. We then searched for other firearms and whatever of value we could lay our hands on. We found ammunition, watches, sheets, blankets etc which we took away. We left the farm in Mr Sharp's 4X4 bakkie which we abandoned after being chased by a police van and helicopter. The ultimate objective of PAC and APLA was not only to talk to the then racist minority regime but to eventually return the land to the majority of the African people. The bastions and the minions of the then erstwhile regime were in terms of the APLA perspective, the members of the South African Defence Force, the members of the South African Police and the reservists in general, the farmers as they belonged to commando structures over and above the fact that they occupied the farms which we had to drive them away from so as to widen our territorial operational base which was aimed at eventually consolidating the liberated and repossessed land, the white homes which were garrisons of apartheid. My general instruction was to seek, identify the enemy who was seen in the context of the above bastions and minions of the regime and also to train other cadres and command them in whatever operation that is being embarked upon. I respectfully submit that my application complies with the requirements of the Act and that I have made full and proper disclosure of my involvement in this operation". CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Mbandazayo. MR MBANDAZAYO Thank you. Mr Chairperson, since I've read the affidavit, just to facilitate I wouldn't like to dwell much, at this stage I left it to the Committee for questioning, I'll put it as the applicant's case at the present moment. That's the evidence of the applicant. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Mbandazayo. I'll ask Ms Patel if she has any questions to put to the applicant. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MBANDAZAYO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS PATEL I do thank you Honourable Chairperson. Mr Snoek can you please explain, whilst you were operating here did you operate in terms of a unit or was there a particular structure that was set up or what was the position? MR SNOEK Where exactly? MR SNOEK ...(indistinct) MS PATEL After you had your training, did you work as a unit? MR SNOEK Yes we were working as a unit. MS PATEL Can you just explain how many members there were in this unit? MR SNOEK I didn't hear your question exactly but whilst we were working in Uitenhage we were meeting in halls discussing what we want to do in our organisation, that's why I was saying we were a unity. MS PATEL What was the unit doing? MR LAX Sorry there's a misunderstanding here. CHAIRPERSON I was just going to say Ms Patel, it seems it seems that the applicant hasn't quite understood your first question. I'm sure that were asking whether he operated as part of a fixed unit, if he was a member of a unit, and it's clear from his answer that although he said yes, but he understands the unit to be that he used to attend meetings in a hall of the party and there was unity. So I think you better clear it up before going off track on the unit and being at cross-purposes with Mr Snoek. MS PATEL Thank you Honourable Chairperson. Sir let's assume that you decided to embark on an operation, how would you go about doing this? How would you function, would you work alone, would you work with other people, how were plans put into place? MR SNOEK As I've already said in my affidavit, I was the one who approached Mr Mandla Nkonki but I first chatted to Timothy Janje and I told him about what Tamsangqa Arthur Tshikila told me about the conflict that was happening in Uitenhage in Qwanobushe. Mr Timothy Janje sent me to Mr Mandla Nkonki because he was the one who was responsible for security. I told Mandla Nkonki what I heard from Comrade Tamsangqa Nachegela; he the told me to go and get weapons if I knew where to find them. MS PATEL So do I understand you correctly, if you wanted to embark on an operation you needed clearance from comrade Nkonki, is that right? MR SNOEK Yes you had to get an instruction because you can't do something on your own without talking to your leadership. MS PATEL Would you be the only person that could authorise an operation or were there other people in the region where you operated that you could get the same authorisation from? MR SNOEK No. In our branch he was the one who was supposed to give us instructions or authorisation. MS PATEL Could you not get authorisation from Mr Toboti? MR SNOEK Mr Toboti told me that he was not responsible for security, he was on the political side so he referred me to Comrade Mandla Nkonki. MS PATEL Oh are you saying that Mr Toboti referred you to Mr Nkonki or is Mr Janje who referred you to Mr Nkonki? MR SNOEK Mr Timothy told me to go to Mandla Nkonki, Comrade Timothy. CHAIRPERSON Sorry just while we're on this issue Ms Patel, I notice Mr Snoek in your application on page 5 of the papers there's a statement by yourself which has been attached to your application, on page 5 the very last sentence of that statement you say "I feel that this application should succeed because even though I did not get instructions to rob arms, I always reported to Mr Toboti." Now you said that you got instructions and you always got instructions before an operation from Mr Nkonki, yet here you say you didn't get an instruction, can you explain the difference between those two statements? MR SNOEK The last paragraph in this statement, I didn't say what is written here. If I remember well Comrade Lulama Mtanga came and he asked me a question of why I needed amnesty or why I needed to be forgiven. What he wrote here, I didn't say it. MS PATEL Mr Snoek, Comrade Mtanga that you referred to a man or a woman? SNOEK It's a man. There he is. MS PATEL Alright, then it seems you've made a mistake with the name. The person sitting next to me is not Lulanga Mtanga, Lulanga Mtanga is a woman who works in our offices. This is an investigating officer who took the statement from you. MR SNOEK Maybe I made a mistake with the name but he is the one who came and made a statement. MS PATEL Are you denying that you told him that you always reported to Mr Toboti? MR SNOEK No I didn't tell him. Mr Toboti was not in South Africa at that time, how can I report to someone who I knew that he was in Zimbabwe? MS PATEL Are you saying that this is a fabrication? MR SNOEK The last paragraph of this statement, I didn't say what is written here. MS PATEL The plan that was hatched to go to the farm, whose idea was it? MR SNOEK There was a discussion between myself and comrade Tshikila, I was the one who went to Mr Timothy Janje and because of what was happening in Uitenhage at that time and I approached Mr Timothy Janje and I told him about what we discussed with Comrade Tshikila and in that time I was desperate, I wanted arms or weapons and Mr Timothy Janje said that he was not responsible for that, I should go to Mandla Nkonki who was responsible for security. MS PATEL The question Mr Snoek is, I accept that you say that Mr Nkonki said that you must go ahead. My question is regarding the plan as to who was going to do what, what the target would be, those details, who made those decisions? Were those decisions made by yourself or did you discuss it with your co-applicant or did you discuss it with Mr Nkonki as well, how did that come about, who made those decisions? MR SNOEK I made those decisions where we should attack. I'm the person who identified the target. MS PATEL What information did you have at your disposal before you identified the target or in order to identify that specific target? MR SNOEK There is a comrade who gave me information about weapons that were there on Phillipus Sharp's farm. That is why I just said I'm the person who decided where the target should be because I already had information about this place that had weapons. MS PATEL Okay and what exactly did - the person who informed you that there were weapons, what exactly did this person say to you, what was the extent of the information given over to you? MR SNOEK He told me that there are R4 and R1 rifles even 303's as well available that Mr Sharp's got. MS PATEL Is that all he said to you? MR SNOEK Yes. MS PATEL He didn't tell you where the weapons were exactly? MR SNOEK No not exactly, he didn't tell me exactly where the weapons are. MS PATEL Did you ask him how he knew that there were weapons on the farm? MR SNOEK I didn't ask this person, I just believed him because he was a foreman on that farm. Simply because he was an employee for a long period there so I assumed that he is telling the truth. MS PATEL Before you went to the farm did you know the lay-out of the farm? MR SNOEK No I knew nothing. MS PATEL You went to the farm in order to get the weapons, you didn't know exactly where to go or where to start looking? MR SNOEK No I didn't know exactly where to find the weapons hree in the house but what I knew is that as soon as I arrived there I will attack somebody, keep that person in possession and take the weapons. MS PATEL So are you saying that it is part of the initial plan that somebody would be attacked? MR SNOEK No we didn't plan to attack really, we planned to get weapons there, not to attack. MS PATEL You planned to take only weapons? MR SNOEK Yes the plan was to take the weapons only. MS PATEL This person who gave you the information, was he somebody who bought dagga from you at some stage? MR SNOEK Not, he wasn't buying the dagga from me, but he came to the township to buy dagga. He came to me to show me where he can get one. MS PATEL Get one what? MR SNOEK This person didn't come to me directly to buy dagga, he was coming to the location because he was a coloured person but an African. When he is in the location I would accompany him and help him to find the dagga. MS PATEL Is he the Mr Hermanus that is referred to in your statement? MR SNOEK Yes that's him. MS PATEL Okay and you say he was the foreman on this farm? MR SNOEK Yes he was the foreman on this farm at some time but not during that period. MS PATEL Did you know whether there were vehicles on the farm at that time? MR SNOEK According to the information that I have, there were cars. As far as I know anyone who has a farm cannot be without a car. MS PATEL Why did you arrange for Matthews Vusani to only drop you off and not wait for you? MR SNOEK That is because I was sure that there is transport there. MS PATEL So the plan then would not be only to go and steal weapons, it would be to steal a vehicles as well, that was part of the original plan, wouldn't you say? MR SNOEK When Matthews left us there I knew that I would take the vehicle of the owner because every Boer who owned a farm had transport or a car. I knew that I would get a car there. MS PATEL Would you agree that you knew that you would find a car there and you would be able to steal it, so that was part of your original plan that you would go there to steal both the firearms and the car? MR SNOEK Don't say we were going to steal, we went there to repossess the arms. MS PATEL Perhaps thee interpretation was - I heard you say the arms, did you say that you went there to repossess the vehicles as well? The interpretation only came across that you say you went there to repossess arms, could you please just clarify? MR SNOEK Matthews, I didn't want to wait for us because I didn't want him to know about our mission, so I told him to drop me there and I wouldn't go on foot from Steytlerville to the Transkei. So when I went to that farm having this information about this farm I knew that there were cars on that farm and I knew that each and every farmer had a car. It's not that we went there to steal his cars and his weapons, we were there to repossess them. MR LAX The question Mr Snoek was really a simple one, it does not require a long answer, was it part of your plan or not, from what you say it's clear that it was part of your plan? Isn't that correct? Just give me a simple yes or a no, thank you. MR SNOEK Yes. MS PATEL Thank you. You say you needed the vehicle to go to Transkei, is that correct? MR SNOEK When we got the weapons there I wouldn't go on foot to Transkei with these weapons, I had to take a car. CHAIRPERSON You must please listen to the questions, the question was simple, is it correct that you needed the vehicle to go to Transkei, that was the question, did you need the vehicle, did you take the vehicle in order to go to Transkei, that is the question, it's very simple, we don't need to know that you can't walk there on foot. MR SNOEK Yes. MS PATEL Okay. The area that your co-applicant Mr Tshikila came from where was the conflict, which area was that? MR SNOEK In Khayelitsha in kwaNunguse, Uitenhage. MS PATEL So why did you need to go to Transkei if the weapons that were needed was for Mr Tshikila to protect himself in a different area? MR SNOEK If Comrade Tshikila got a weapon that he wanted I would then go to the Transkei. MS PATEL For what purpose? MR SNOEK In Transkei - I needed a weapon to go to the Transkei because there was also conflict in the Transkei, the IFP went to kill the Xhosas in Transkei. MS PATEL Now I don't understand. I thought the plan initially was that you were approached by Mr Tshikila, he needed weapons because there was conflict in the area where he stayed and that was the motivation for the robbery, that you needed weapons for him. Now are you saying that you needed weapons for yourself because there was conflict in Transkei? MR SNOEK These weapons, it's not that I wanted them for myself, I wanted them for the organisation. MS PATEL And did you discuss this with Mr Nkonki as well, that there was a reason besides Mr Tshikila's needs for the robbery to take place? MR SNOEK There were a lot of reasons because the conflict in Uitenhage and the conflict in the Transkei, let me put it this way, all over the country there was a conflict. So when we didn't have a weapon at that time that would be very difficult for you, things would be difficult for you if you didn't have a weapon at that time. MS PATEL The question is very simple Mr Snoek, did you discuss this with Mr Nkonki when he authorised you to assist Mr Tshikila? MR SNOEK That I'm going to go to the Transkei? MS PATEL That you were going to get a weapon so that you could go to Transkei as well, yes. MR SNOEK No I didn't tell him that. MS PATEL Why not? MR SNOEK Because I didn't see it as necessary for me to tell him. MS PATEL You said at the start Mr Snoek that before you embarked on any operation you needed Mr Nkonki's authorisation because he was the head of security. Why are you saying now that you didn't deem it necessary to discuss this with him? Are you saying that you were entitled to embark on operations out of your own without it being authorised by anybody else? MR SNOEK If I came back from that farm with weapons I would tell Mr Nkonki everything but after all this I wanted to go back to the Transkei. That is why I didn't feel that there was a need for me to tell him that I would go to the Transkei. MS PATEL Are you saying then that you were entitled to embark on operations on your own decisions without any authorisation? MR SNOEK Regarding permission to go to the Transkei, I didn't think that I had to get that I had to get or be authorised to go to the Transkei. If I had finished the mission I would go to him as the person who gave me permission to go for this operation, and then after reporting to him I would then go to the Transkei. MS PATEL I'm sorry I don't understand, could you repeat that please? MR SNOEK What I'm saying Ma'am is when you're asking me this question that I had an authorisation or I would be able to do things on my own, if I succeeded getting these arms I would go back to Uitenhage and hand them to Mr Nkonki. After that I would on my own go to the Transkei. MS PATEL So you weren't intending to leave from the farm straight to the Transkei, you were intending to come back and report back to Mr Nkonki what had transpired and then leave to Transkei? MR SNOEK Exactly. MS PATEL And so you needed to take a car from the farm so that you could go to Transkei after this operation was completed for something else. MR SNOEK Yes I would say so. If I had succeeded and come back to Uitenhage I would then proceed to Transkei, no matter if even I would have to leave this vehicle of this farmer but I for one I would go to Transkei. MS PATEL Sorry did you just say that you would have left the vehicle of the farmer but you still would have proceeded to Transkei? MR SNOEK That would depend whether I'm leaving the car or taking it with but what I'm exactly saying, after I have finished my mission and came back and reported to Mr Nkonki, I personally, I had intentions to go to Transkei. MS PATEL So in order to get the weapons from the farm it wasn't necessary for you to steal the car because the purpose of stealing the car would be for you to transport yourself to Transkei and that had nothing to do with Mr Tshikila's request to you or the order that you had received from Mr Nkonki? MR SNOEK An order to rob the weapons, I for one under the circumstances that I knew, if you are repossessing something from whites you just take anything and then with the valuable things that you can donate in your organisations, you take them as well. MS PATEL ...(indistinct) plan then as you said is not correct, you said at the start that the plan was only to get firearms, now you are you are saying that it encompassed taking whatever was of value wherever you found it. That's not what you said at the start, it's not part of the initial plan or am I misunderstanding you, I don't know, explain please? MR SNOEK Your Honour, when you are going to rob according to the instructions I will say so, when you are arriving at your destination, done the repossessing, I for one, I've decided to take any item that is valuable from that place so that I can be able to donate to the organisation. Under the circumstances that I knew. CHAIRPERSON I was just going to ask you, it's clear from the record that besides a firearm you took a whole lot of other goods, there's a whole list of them, did you donate those to the organisation and if so, when and whom? MR SNOEK We were going to take the valuables to the organisation, unfortunately we came across a road block. MS PATEL You didn't receive prior authorisation from Mr Nkonki to take whatever was of value there, did you? MR SNOEK No I didn't get an order or an instruction to do that, I only got an instruction to take weapons only. MR LAX If I could come in here. Sorry, just to go back to an unanswered question which was, so your original plan was only to take weapons as you already told us, is that right? MR SNOEK Yes. MR LAX And you obviously changed that plan along the way but your early evidence to that effect is correct? MR SNOEK Yes that's correct. ADV BOSMAN May I just come in here? Mr Snoek at what stage did you decide that you were going to take a car? MR SNOEK I only decided when I noticed it's about to be in the early hours of the morning. MR LAX You see why did you then send Matthews away if you had no transport, if it wasn't part of your plan? MR SNOEK Sir as I've already said before in each and every farm there is transport, so when I went to that farm I knew that I would get transport from that farm, that is why I sent Matthews back. I just told him to go and drop me there because I knew I would get transport there. MR LAX Well then the answer you've just given to my colleague is not right because you said you decided to take the car when it was late and you were on the farm, and in fact that's not true. What is in fact true is that you decided to take the car knowing that there would be a vehicle on the farm because as you say, most white farmers have vehicles on their farms, so it was part of your original plan to take the vehicle and the firearms, and the answer that you gave is not right. Isn't this right, isn't this correct? MR SNOEK Yes I knew from the beginning that I would take transport in that farm. MS PATEL Can I just to go back Mr Snoek confirm that the reason for taking the vehicle, that that didn't relate necessarily to the taking of firearms. MR SNOEK Yes I do confirm that taking a car had nothing to do with taking firearms but as I've already said before, when I went to that farm I knew that I was going to get transport there. MS PATEL But you could have left with the firearms ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON I think we can move off the question about the vehicle Ms Patel, we've got a fair picture and he said it a number of times. I think what you're going to be putting to him I think can be put up in argument. MS PATEL When you went to the farm there were two farmhouses on this farm, how did you know which one to go to? MR SNOEK There were not two houses, there was one house on this farm. MR LAX So are you saying the place you found the firearms was in the farmhouse of that farm, and there was only one farmhouse on that farm? Is that what you're saying? MR SNOEK There were two farms there, one on the other side and then the other on the other side. We went to the first farm, that's where I got weapons. MS PATEL Did the farms not belong to the same person? MR SNOEK Yes they belonged to the same person according to my knowledge, they belonged to the same person. MS PATEL When Mr Hermanus told you that there were firearms on the farm, did he then not specify, given that you now say there's more than one farm, did he not specify which farm? MR SNOEK Comrade Hermanus told me that in both farms there are weapons. MS PATEL That wasn't your - you didn't tell us that earlier on, you didn't mention farms when you testified earlier, was that just a mistake or did you forget? MR SNOEK You didn't ask me that. MR LAX You see it's not about us asking you, it's about you telling us what happened. We don't know, we weren't there, you're supposed to be helping us understand the facts, so it's not whether she asked you a question or not. You spoke of a farm, he told you to go to a particular farm and that on that farm you would find guns. You didn't say that he said there were two farms and there were guns on both those farms. That's what you're being asked. Do you understand what you're being asked? MR SNOEK Yes I do understand what I am being asked, my answer to that is I was not asked what kind of information Mr Hermanus gave me. You didn't ask me what kind of information he gave me, that is why I didn't tell her. MS PATEL Perhaps I should leave this point to argument, it's clear. When you went to, as you say, the first farm, how did you gain access to the premises, to the farmhouse itself? MR SNOEK I knocked at the door, I knew that I was going to knock at the door. MS PATEL In the middle of the night you were going to knock on the door? MR SNOEK Yes. MS PATEL And then what. MR SNOEK But when I arrived there I knocked at the door but I found out that there was nobody inside the house. MS PATEL Okay so how did you get into the house? MR SNOEK I found an open window, I then went through the window of the house. MS PATEL You didn't gain access by breaking the lock to the door? MR SNOEK No I didn't break the door or the lock of the door. MS PATEL And Mr Tshikila was present with you at that time? MR SNOEK Yes he was there. MS PATEL So he will confirm this, that you went through a window. MR SNOEK Yes I'm sure that he will confirm that I went through the window. MS PATEL If you'll bear with me a moment Mr Chairperson. Okay if I can just refer you to a statement by Mr Tshikila on page 15 of the bundle. Mr Tshikila says that 'we got an iron rod and broke open the door open the door and we both got in, is that not right, what is your comment on that? MR SNOEK Not on the first farm, this one happened on the next farm, the second one. MR LAX In the statement he is talking about the first farm, he's not talking about the second farm. Just listen to the question before you speak, let me finish. He's talking about getting into the safe and taking out a 303 rifle as well as some cash of about R1 000. So it's clear he's talking about the first farm and he contextualises it by referring to things that happened on the first farm, not the second farm. So you think he's just making a mistake? MR SNOEK I think he is making a mistake because the statement that he is giving now it is about the robbery on the second farm. CHAIRPERSON Are you saying that getting to the second farm you took an iron rod and broke the lock? MR SNOEK Yes that's what happened on the second farm, I broke the garage door. MS PATEL When you both went into the house, who searched the house, did you search it together or did you do it alone? CHAIRPERSON Are you talking of the first house? MS PATEL Yes yes I am. MR SNOEK I cannot clearly remember. MS PATEL Can you recall where the firearm was found that you took? MR SNOEK In the safe. MS PATEL Did you take any money from the safe, was there money there? MR SNOEK Yes there was money but I don't know the amount, I cannot clearly remember. MS PATEL Did you take the money? MR SNOEK Yes. MS PATEL Why did you not say that in your affidavit, the affidavit that was handed in this morning, why did you not say that you took money, was that an oversight? If I can refer you to paragraph 8 of your affidavit, all you say is that "We entered the first farm, there were no people and we managed to get one firearm, we then proceeded to the second farm". MR SNOEK So Ma'am what do you clearly want to know here? Can you please repeat your question for me? MS PATEL The question is, given that you've admitted now that you took money from the safe, my question is why was this not stated in your affidavit that was tendered this morning? The only thing you say in your affidavit that you took from the first farm was the firearm. MR SNOEK What I've said here are the items we had taken, maybe I forgot about this money thing. MS PATEL And you say you can't remember how much it was? MR SNOEK No. MS PATEL Would you dispute it if I put to you that it was about R1 000? MR SNOEK I don't want to argue with you or I don't want to disagree with you, as I said before I really cannot remember the amount so I will not disagree with you, I really don't know the amount whether it was ten thousand or not, I cannot remember. MS PATEL Mr Tshikila says it was about a thousand rand. MR SNOEK Maybe he's telling the truth, as I said I don't know the amount. MS PATEL It's enough money to transport you to Transkei without having to take a car, don't you agree? MR SNOEK Are you saying to take weapons with? Are you asking me about taking one thousand and weapons? I cannot clearly hear you or understand you? MS PATEL The question was very simple. CHAIRPERSON I think it's also basically a point that can be raised, I mean he's just asking for an opinion here. MS PATEL You'd never been inside the house before, the first one, the first farmhouse? MR SNOEK I was in the house before. MS PATEL When was this? MR SNOEK The very same year. MS PATEL What were you doing there? MR SNOEK I came there to search for the weapons. MS PATEL Earlier on in the same year? CHAIRPERSON That's what he said. MR SNOEK I cannot remember exactly when, but what I can tell you it was not the first time for me to get arms there. MS PATEL How many times were you there to get arms before this incident? MR SNOEK It was the second time. MS PATEL You say you got the rifle from the safe, how did you open the safe? MR SNOEK I found a bundle of keys in that house. I also noticed that there was a safe key there as well and then I went to the room where the safe was. I tested this key and it opened. CHAIRPERSON Mr Snoek, sorry just on this point, I'm just reading from my notes what you said earlier and I just want you to explain if you think there's a contradiction to explain it. When you were asked earlier, you were talking about Mr Hermanus giving you information. You said "I got information about weapons on Sharp's farm. I was told that there were R4's and R5's and 303 rifles there, I didn't ask how he knew the weapons were on the farm, he was an employee of the farm". Then the question was "Did you know the layout of the farm"? And you said: "No I knew nothing". Now you're saying that this wasn't the first time you got there, what is the correct position then? MR SNOEK I'm not lying when I'm saying it was not the first time. Mr Hermanus gave me information long before about getting arms there. CHAIRPERSON Before the first time that you went, are you talking about? MR SNOEK Yes. I got this information before the first time I went to that farm. When I went there for the first time I already had this information. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Ms Patel? MS PATEL Did you know where to find the keys to the safe? MR SNOEK The keys of the safe? No I didn't know where I was going to get them. MS PATEL You see Mr Tshikila states in his statement that after you both got in, he says that after switching on the lights he, meaning you, fetched the keys to the safe and we then opened the safe. Now when I read that, it appears as if you knew where the keys were, you knew where the safe was and that there was no searching being done for these keys. MR SNOEK What I know is that when I went to that house through the window, I searched in the bedroom of the owner, I looked in the drawers, I found a bundle of keys, I then checked those keys and then I found a safe key. I then went looking for a room with this safe, I found the safe and then I opened it with this key. MR LAX Hang on a second, you knew where the safe was, you'd already taken firearms from there before, you didn't have to go looking for the safe, you knew exactly where it was. MR SNOEK I knew where the safe is. MR LAX Why were you looking for it if you knew where it was? MR SNOEK That was a big house with a lot of rooms, so if I went to that house the previous year I wouldn't think that that safe would be in the same place. MR LAX But you weren't there the previous year you were there the same year. MR SNOEK Yes I'm just making an example. MR LAX Yes but you hadn't been there very long before that, it wasn't so long ago between the first time and the second time, isn't that correct? MR SNOEK That is correct. MR LAX So it's got nothing to do with the passing of time. Anyway carry on Ms Patel. MS PATEL Thank you. Did you also knew what type of vehicles there were on the farm? MR SNOEK There is only one car I knew on that farm, it was a bakkie. MS PATEL How did you know this? MR SNOEK I saw it when I was there for the first time. MS PATEL Was it parked at the same farm as the first farm? Did you see ...(indistinct) MR SNOEK Yes I saw it parked there. MS PATEL Sorry, just give me a momment. Why did you decide to go to the second farm? MR SNOEK It is because the weapons that I found there it only one rifle and there was no transport on that first farm. MS PATEL Were there no cars at all on the first farm, no vehicles? MR SNOEK Not at all. MS PATEL Did you not try to start a vehicle at the first farm that you had problems with and then because that didn't start you went to the second farmhouse? MR SNOEK On the first farm we didn't find any car. MS PATEL So my recollection is that, I just can't find the reference for it, is that you found a car at the first farm but had problems with it and then left it and that was the reason that you moved to the second farm. ADV BOSMAN If you look at page 15 Ms Patel, third paragarph, it's Tshikila's statement ...(indistinct) a van not a car. MS PATEL Yes it's in fact your co-applicant mentioned this. He says you tried to drive it, it was a van, it says: "We tried to drive it but the engine would not run. It was then that Willy said we must go to the other farmhouse to get the 4X4 Isuzu belonging to the farm owner". So is Mr Tshikila wrong when he says this? MR SNOEK He is making a mistake Ma'am because in the first farm we didn't find any transport at all. MS PATEL Okay so then you decided to go to the second farm. MR SNOEK Yes I took that decision that we should go to the second farm. MS PATEL And you broke the lock to the garage door, is that correct? MR SNOEK Yes. MS PATEL And then what was the problem with the car that you found there, why couldn't you take it? MR SNOEK It didn't want to start, we couldn't start it. MS PATEL And so you decided that you needed the van's keys for it? MR SNOEK We decided to go back to the van in the garage. I tried to open the door of the second one but I couldn't open it and it was sunrise at that time. MS PATEL Had you ever been to the second farm before this time? MR SNOEK No, I was never there before, the second farm. MS PATEL Did you have any idea who would be in the farmhouse? MR SNOEK No I didn't know who we were going to find there. MS PATEL If anyone at all? You didn't know that there would be anyone there then. MR SNOEK On the second farm? MS PATEL Yes. MR SNOEK What I noticed, I went to the garage to see whether there are cars there. I then realised that there were people inside after checking the garage. MS PATEL Simply because you saw the cars there you assumed that there would be people there? MR SNOEK Yes I also saw a cortina that I said I once saw it parked at the first farmhouse, that is when I assumed that there are people in this house. MS PATEL Now in accordance with your plan for when you went to the first farmhouse, you said that you would go there and knock. Why did you not do the same at this farmhouse, why did you wait, what was the purpose of that? You'd also said earlier that you were prepared to attack if necessary. I don't understand why you waited, could you please explain that? MR SNOEK It's because it already was about sunrise so I knew that there were people there and I decided that the attack will take place if they did appear. MS PATEL Now the question is, why did you wait? MR SNOEK When you are going to attack someone you don't just go and attack people with weapons. I for one, I knew that as it was already about sunrise, they will appear at any stage, so there was no need for me to go and knock. MS PATEL But you were armed yourself at that stage, you'd already had, what was it, was it a rifle that you took from the first house? MR SNOEK Yes I was also armed but the way that I was armed was not exactly armed in the true sense of the word because I noticed that the rifle had a problem. MS PATEL When did you notice this, that the rifle had a problem, did you try using it before you got to the second farm? MR SNOEK I know the rifle, I know the rifle exactly, so the moment I was taking it, I took out the magazine that was in there, I put in a new one but I noticed that the bullet had difficulty to go inside the run of the rifle, so I knew that it needed some repairs somewhere somehow. MR LAX If I could just go back to something you said, you said that you decided to wait because it was nearly morning and it was almost sunrise, is that right? MR SNOEK Yes. MR LAX You see, look at page 4 of your statement, the last paragraph - page 4 of the record, sorry, page 4 of the bundle, the last paragraph on page 4, the second last paragraph. Have you got page 4? If you look at the second last paragraph, you talk about going to the farm, you say "One day Arthur and I travelled to Gert's Kraal Farm and on out arrival there at midnight we waited until in the morning for Phillipus Swart to come out but it was his wife who came out. We grabbed her and tied her legs after we had pointed to her with a gun" So you waited from midnight until early in the morning before someone came out. That's not the same as what you just told us in your evidence. Please explain this to us. MR SNOEK Which one, that I've just said now? MR LAX According to your statement you waited from midnight till the morning, but now you're saying you only waited from early in the morning just before sunrise till they came out. Just explain this difference to us. MR SNOEK I've just said we pushed a bakkie far from the house so that we can start the engine, so that took some time. Even to take the bakkie back under the trees so that the owner can not notice that there were people around in his yard, so that process took time up until it was in the morning. MS PATEL The time that you spent trying to, that you moved the bakkie, was this not at the first farm? MR SNOEK Your Honour it's on the second farm, not the first farm. MS PATEL Okay and how many hours did this take, from midnight to sunrise, for what, five hours? Because you've confirmed even in your affidavit that was tendered this morning that you arrived at the farm at 12 o'clock at night? Are you saying the process of trying to start the bakkie and moving it down took you four to five hours at least? MR SNOEK Your Honour, from the first farm walking to the second farm, arrive there, break the garage door, take a car out, open the gate pushing the car in order for it to be far away from the house and when you are about to be on the field, seeing hills and approaching hills and you are the only person who's got strength enough. So I cannot say that would take me so many hours, but I could notice that it was about to be the morning. MS PATEL When the woman came out from the farmhouse you accosted here at the garage, is that right, or you accosted her and took her into the garage and to the store room? MR SNOEK I didn't take her into the garage, she got there by herself. MS PATEL Okay so it was in the garage then that you got her? MR SNOEK Yes at the last door of the garage where I got her. MS PATEL Was Mr Tshikila with you at the time? MR SNOEK At the time I was coming across to this woman Mr Tshikila was in the other garage. MS PATEL Can you please explain exactly how you assaulted her? MR SNOEK When I followed her whilst she was going inside the garage, I pointed at her with the rifle asking her to obey but she couldn't, she screamed instead and when she screamed I grabbed her forcing her to get down, I assaulted her with the back of the gun on her head but before I hit her with the back of the gun, I first assaulted her with my hands clapping her and fisting her. After that I knocked her on her head with the back of the gun. MS PATEL Did you cover her mouth at that stage with a cloth or not, what did you cover her mouth with(...intervention)? MR SNOEK: I tried to cover her mouth but I couldn't succeed in so much that she couldn't scream because I was trying to cover her mouth and she would strive and she would succeed. (background audience noise) CHAIRPERSON Please be quiet, it's not that very funny. MR LAX Sorry he said that the reason he couldn't succeed was that he was trying to hit her and cover her mouth at the same time. Did I get your answer correctly? MR SNOEK Whilst I was grabbing her, throwing her down it's the time I was hitting her with a fist and clapping her with my hands. MR LAX And you were trying to put something in her mouth to stop her from shouting. MR SNOEK At the very same time I was taking off my hat trying to cover her mouth with it. MS PATEL So at that stage you didn't succeed in getting her quiet. Is that correct? MR SNOEK I did not succeed because she screamed for a very long time. MS PATEL Did you tie her up before you went into the house? MR SNOEK Yes I did tie her just before I went to attack the husband. MS PATEL Was she still screaming at that time? MR SNOEK Yes she was but in a very low tone by the time I was tying her. MS PATEL Did Tshikila come and help you tie her up? MR SNOEK Yes he gave me a hand. MS PATEL Did you question her about anything? MR SNOEK I didn't ask her any questions. The only thing I said to her the first time I was approaching her whilst I was pointing at her with the rifle, I was just asking her to obey. MS PATEL To obey what? MR SNOEK My instructions. MS PATEL What were those instructions? MR SNOEK To sit down and tie her. MR LAX Your instructions to her was that she should tie herself up? MR SNOEK My instructions were for her not to scream and sit down and I was going to tie her. MR LAX This was a 58 year old woman that you were dealing with. MR SNOEK Yes, but I don't know her age. MS PATEL MR SNOEK There was nothing I could say to her because her reaction gave me no chance to ask her any questions even if I had intentions to do so. MS PATEL MR SNOEK As I have said before Ma'am, the way she was screaming and the way she was reacting, I had no chance to ask her any questions because she was screaming so much that I got scared and people inside the house could hear her screaming. I tied her and I said to my comrade, he must look after her, I am going inside. MS PATEL So now you are saying, you tied her in a sack before you went into the house? MR LAX CHAIRPERSON MR LAX You just told your - you tied her up and then you told your Comrade Mr Tshikila to look after her while you went to the house. That was your answer as I heard it, is that right? MR SNOEK MR LAX MR SNOEK What I did, I took the bags full of fertiliser and put them on her sides in order for her to be steady. MR LAX MR SNOEK To put the sacks on the head, its not true, in order for her not to breath. MR LAX You tried to make her keep her quiet, not to make her not breathe. MR LAX Are you saying - did you put the sack on her head or on her sides, what are you saying Mr Snoek? MR SNOEK MR LAX So you deny that you put a bag on her head? Is that right? MR SNOEK MR LAX Well the question is, do you deny that you put a bag on her head?, yes or no? It is very simple. MR SNOEK The bags were not on the head. There may be on the head ... MR LAX MR SNOEK MR LAX MR SNOEK No. MS PATEL MR SNOEK Yes. MS PATEL But she had already been assaulted by you, you have admitted to hitting her with the gun, to slapping her. She was now tied on the floor. Did your co-applicant at any stage put a bag over her head? MR SNOEK MS PATEL When you came back ...(intervention) MR LAX MR SNOEK MR LAX MR SNOEK Sir, I said before, seeing the cars there I assumed that there were people inside the house. There was not only one person because I saw the Cortina that I saw before, it was in that house together with the Isuzu. From seeing those cars I then realised that there were people inside the house, not a person. MR LAX "Willy had told me that there were two farmhouses in that farm and one of which the farm owner and his girlfriend were sleeping in, while the other we were going to, would have no occupants." MR SNOEK Yes, he is telling the truth because I told him this after we left the first farm. I told him this, there was another farm. I then said that maybe the farm owner is in this second farm. CHAIRPERSON COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you. Mr Snoek I remind you that you still under your former oath. Ms Patel. WILLY LITHO SNOEK (s.u.o.) CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS PATEL (continued) Thank you Honourable Chairperson. Mr Snoek, just before the adjournment we were on the question of the bag that was allegedly placed over the head of the deceased. The Court at your trial - in fact if one looks at the Judgement on page 25, the Court confirms that you were the one who placed the bag containing the mealies on the face of the deceased and if I can take you to page 46 also of the bundle of documents, the second paragraph, it is in fact a statement by yourself in which you are explaining the events that took place and if I can just read to you, it says: "so toe ek haar kop met die sak toegedruk en Njengenja het haar voete vasgebind, het sy begin stil raak". Are you deny ...? MR LAX ADV BOSMAN Xhosa? (Laughter). MR LAX No, in English and then ... CHAIRPERSON Yes. I think perhaps, if the Adv Bosman will read the Afrikaans in English and then you can translate from the English. ADV BOSMAN "So then I covered her head with the sack and Njengenja tied her feet and she then became quiet." Is that all you wanted Ms Patel? MS PATEL Yes thank you. CHAIRPERSON Did you hear that Mr Snoek? Did that get translated? MR SNOEK Yes I did. MS PATEL MR SNOEK No I am not denying it. MS PATEL So you are agreeing that you the one that put the bag on her head? MR SNOEK Yes. MS PATEL OK. Did you know the owner of the farm at all? MR SNOEK MS PATEL You had never seen him before, never had any dealings with him whatsoever? MR SNOEK No I never had any dealings with him. I never had any contacts with him. MS PATEL In that same statement that I referred you to in which you admitted to putting the bag over her head, if you turn to page 42, the second paragraph, it says in Afrikaans "ek ken die Oubaas goed". ADV BOSMAN "I know the Oubaas well." MR SNOEK MS PATEL What is this idea that you had about him, could you elaborate please? MR SNOEK I was heard or told about him, so then I was looking for this person that I was told about and then I had an idea of whom was he. MS PATEL Why were you looking for the person, I thought you were looking for firearms? MR SNOEK To look for the person did not happen at the same moment whereby I had intention to get firearms. I was looking for the person after I got the information from Hermanus. MS PATEL MR SNOEK MS PATEL Did you know anything else about him? MR SNOEK No, nothing else I know about Mr Sharp. The only thing that I know is that he had weapons in his farm. MS PATEL Why is it then in that same statement, in the second paragraph as well, at page 42. Adv Bosman, if you may just after me "Ek het gewag, ek wil gewag het totdat dit dag raak. Totdat die Oubaas kerk toe gaan." ADV BOSMAN "Till daylight." "I wanted to wait until daylight came. Until the Oubaas went to the church." MS PATEL Did you say that? MR SNOEK Yes, I said it in the Courts of Law. MS PATEL MR SNOEK MS PATEL Okay. In fact, you go further, you call him Oubaas Flippie, which is an indication that you knew him a lot better than you would like us to believe. Did you never refer to him as Oubaas Flippie? MR SNOEK MS PATEL He made up these word himself, you had nothing to do with it? MR SNOEK MS PATEL No. You may not have told him to write it down but did he make up these words himself? The reference to Oubaas Flippie, did he make that up himself? I am not saying that you told him to write it down. The question is, did you not use these words yourself? MR SNOEK From Mr Claasen there was never any word like Oubaas Flippie. MR LAX MR SNOEK The one about Oubaas Flippie I never said it, I think he did that himself. MR LAX MR SNOEK According to the information that I got, I knew him as a Mr Flippie. MR LAX So you did know him as Mr Flippie? MR SNOEK As far as the information is concerned, yes I knew him as Mr Flippie. MR LAX MR SNOEK Yes I understand. MS PATEL What was Mr Sharp doing when you went into the house? MR SNOEK MS PATEL Okay. What does that door lead into, is it the front room or is it a bedroom or is it a kitchen or what is it? MR SNOEK The kitchen door. MS PATEL And you say he was on his way to the door, to the back door? MR SNOEK Yes. I was standing next to the door and he was coming towards the door and then I met him there. MS PATEL OK and did you say anything to him? MR SNOEK No, I just attacked him, there was nothing I said. I said to him I want to help him about what he had in his hand and when he was giving me this I then attacked him. MS PATEL Sorry, did you say you wanted to help him with what he had in his hand, what do you mean by that? What did he have in his hand? MR SNOEK MS PATEL MR SNOEK Yes. MS PATEL Okay and what was his response to your offer? MR SNOEK He gave me this. He handed it over and then during that process, I attacked him. MS PATEL MR SNOEK MS PATEL But you certainly never knew him? MR SNOEK MS PATEL MR SNOEK Yes, that is correct. MS PATEL MR SNOEK MS PATEL He was shocked but still he handed over whatever ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON MS PATEL In your statement you say at page 46 that Mr Sharp, or Mr Flippie as you refer to him, was in the process of removing ash from the stove and that you then greeted him. It is the third paragraph on page 46. ADV BOSMAN I will just translate that into English. "When I came into the kitchen, the Oubaas was busy removing ash from the stove. I greeted the Oubaas. I told him that he must obey me, I am just looking for the keys to the van and that I would not harm him at all." MR SNOEK CHAIRPERSON MR SNOEK MR LAX Well maybe you can explain this to us then. If we read your statement, your affidavit, that was handed in today by your lawyer and which was read into the record, if you look at the last paragraph, which was a part of paragraph eight, you say MR SNOEK MR LAX So the words "met him in the kitchen" MR SNOEK ADV BOSMAN Please tell me if I am wrong but I recall you saying to your colleague there that he must watch over the old woman, you were going to go inside the house. MR SNOEK ADV BOSMAN But now you say you did not go into the house, you waited at the door. MR SNOEK ADV BOSMAN Thank you, please continue. MS PATEL And you attacked him - you attacked Mr Sharp whilst he was handing over whatever it is that he had in your hand, in his hand, sorry. MR SNOEK Yes, I attacked him in that time. MS PATEL MR SNOEK The telephone rang whilst I was attacking him, not before the attack because I was outside. MS PATEL And did he try to answer the phone, Mr Sharp? MR SNOEK He tried. MS PATEL You see that - part of what you say is contained in the statement that is in Afrikaans. It says that after you came in and you asked for the keys and that he must obey you, and then the telephone rang and then you say that the Oubaas then went to try to grab the telephone and then you say, only after that "ons het toe gewoel". ADV BOSMAN Ms Patel, I think you have it wrong there. He did not say that the Oubaas was going to grab the telephone. He said the Oubaas went ... "toe die Oubaas na die telefoon toe gaan" - "when he went to the telephone, I grabbed to Oubaas." MS PATEL Yes, no, sorry. CHAIRPERSON What are you asking him? MS PATEL The applicant is saying that he attacked Mr Sharp before the telephone rang and in terms of this statement it was only afterwards that he attacked him. CHAIRPERSON MR SNOEK I am saying that I attacked him after the phone rang. CHAIRPERSON MR SNOEK MS PATEL Okay. You said at some stage that Mr Sharp was shocked, is that correct? CHAIRPERSON He was shocked or shot? Shot? Shocked? MR SNOEK He looked as if he was shocked when I met him at the door, when I was offering assistance for whatever he had in his hand. MS PATEL MR SNOEK No I never worked in the farm. MS PATEL You're absolutely sure you never ever had any dealings with Mr Sharp before this incident? MR SNOEK MS PATEL Did you not in your interview with Mr Kaiser here, tell him that you had a grudge against Mr Sharp because you had assisted him one day or at some stage with his vehicle and that he gave you very little money for your help? Did you not tell Mr Kaiser that? MR SNOEK MS PATEL Is it true or not though, that this in fact what happened? MR SNOEK MS PATEL MR SNOEK Are you referring to Mr Sharp? MS PATEL Yes. MR SNOEK MS PATEL So its possible that you did? MR SNOEK I never had any dealings or contact with him. MS PATEL So Mr Kaiser is fabricating this as well, that you had said this to him? MR SNOEK Maybe he is fabricating it. MS PATEL Does Mr Kaiser know you from anywhere? MR SNOEK ADV BOSMAN Ms Patel can you just indicate where this Mr Kaiser ... MS PATEL No, it was a verbal instruction ... ADV BOSMAN Thank you. MR LAX Sorry Mr Snoek. Why would an investigator whose job is to help you get information to complete your application, who comes to see you to take a story from you, with the purpose of helping you complete your application. Why would he manufacture something that would be adverse to you? MR SNOEK MR LAX MR SNOEK MR LAX CHAIRPERSON Ms Patel, do you have any further questions? MS PATEL MR LAX While you are doing that ... MR SNOEK Yes, I gave evidence to Magistrate Claasen. MR LAX MR SNOEK In which court? MR LAX In the Supreme Court when you appeared, you were only there on the murders per se and attempted murders. The Judge in his Judgement says that "The two accused came before this Court on six counts. They have already both been convicted on their Pleas of Guilty on their Counts 3 and 4 of housebreaking, with intent to steal, and theft, and on Count 5 of unlawful possession of a firearm and on Count 6 on unlawful possession of ammunition." This leaves Counts 1 and 2 and those were the murder and robbery with aggravating circumstances. The question I am asking is, did you testify before the Magistrate and I think you have said yes you did? MR SNOEK MR MBANDAZAYO CHAIRPERSON The confusion has come in. Yes, thank you Mr Mbandazayo. MR LAX MR SNOEK I was never found guilty by the Magistrate. Its the Judge that found me guilty and he sentenced me. MR LAX MR SNOEK MR LAX MR SNOEK Yes, I do agree. MR LAX MR SNOEK Sir, Mr Jonker and others that you are talking about, like Claasen as well, I had to work with them the way they wanted me to, simply because I was scared or I was afraid to be taken to the Death Row. MR LAX So, the evidence that appears there and the evidence or the version that appears in the statement, is something they made up and you just agreed to say that in Court? MR SNOEK MR LAX MR SNOEK Yes, I had to tell my story the way it was in the papers because I had been threatened by Jonker and others. I had no chance to change anything. MR LAX So they gave you the paper and they made you memorise it. Is that what you are saying? MR SNOEK MR LAX Okay. Please carry on. MS PATEL Do you think Mr Snoek, that it was necessary for you to kill Ms Slabbert? That it was necessary to kill her and to assault Mr Sharp in order to complete or to effect your operation? MR SNOEK Under their negative reactions, there was need or a necessity. MS PATEL MR SNOEK I would say yes, that was the reason. MS PATEL And your reasoning is the same for Mr Sharp? MR SNOEK Sharp succeeded because the rifle was not working. I wanted to shoot him. MS PATEL MR SNOEK Yes, he was so fortunate that the rifle was not working. CHAIRPERSON Do you know how to use a rifle, Mr Snoek? Did you know how to use that particular rifle, that .30 ... ? MR SNOEK Yes, I do know it exactly. MR LAX MR SNOEK If I wanted to kill Mr Sharp, I would have killed him but my intention was to shoot him at that moment whilst I was still at the door. MR LAX MR SNOEK MR LAX MR SNOEK MR LAX Please carry on. MS PATEL MR SNOEK MS PATEL Okay so the use of violence was a necessary part of any plan, regardless of what circumstances you were confronted with? MR SNOEK If the circumstance forces you to use violence, you would use violence, sir. MS PATEL Okay and the use of violence was part of your plan in this specific operation. CHAIRPERSON MS PATEL CHAIRPERSON He can put it ... but I think he has made it quite clear that the use of violence was part of his plan and it is also very evident from what he did. MS PATEL MR SNOEK Yes, that is correct. MS PATEL How long had you been in training before you left? MR SNOEK MS PATEL Okay. During that short period that you were there, were you given instructions as to the modus operandi of an operation? Was there a set policy that was explained to you during your training, that you can recall? MR SNOEK Yes. MS PATEL Can you just briefly tell us what that policy was? What was your understanding of the policy? MR SNOEK MS PATEL Is there anything else? MR SNOEK Like what, Ma'am? MS PATEL In terms of the policy, was there any limitations placed or code of conduct that you had to abide by? MR SNOEK CHAIRPERSON MS PATEL In terms of carrying out an operation, was, in terms, what you were told at your training, did you need specific authorisation for all your operations that you carried out? MR SNOEK Yes. MS PATEL And what would happen if parties went beyond what they were authorised to do? MR SNOEK What would happen where? I want you to clarify your question. CHAIRPERSON MR SNOEK Nothing would happen, sir because each and every APLA soldier had flexible initiatives. MR LAX MR SNOEK Nothing would happen because attacking the farmers was part of our policy. MR LAX MR SNOEK Yes, I understand. CHAIRPERSON Have you heard of the Code of Conduct of APLA? MR SNOEK No. CHAIRPERSON MR SNOEK A Code of Conduct? CHAIRPERSON MR SNOEK Are you referring to The Fifteen Points of Attention? Yes, I do know them. CHAIRPERSON What was your code name for these operations? MR SNOEK .... CHAIRPERSON Beg your pardon? MR SNOEK Stafenda. CHAIRPERSON Stafendus? After the man who had killed Verwoerd? MS PATEL MR SNOEK CHAIRPERSON So you were operating using your ordinary names? MR SNOEK In this operation we used our normal names. He knew me by my name and I knew him by his name. CHAIRPERSON What other operations did you get involved in, because from what you say, it seems there were other operations? MR SNOEK There were no other operations. CHAIRPERSON So you never used your code name? MR SNOEK No, I never used it. MS PATEL MR SNOEK I think you should ask him this. MS PATEL MR SNOEK MS PATEL Thank you Honourable Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS PATEL CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Mbandazayo do you have any re-examination? RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO Mr Snoek, am I correct to say that, is it your evidence that, you are the person who identified this farm as a target, this one of Mr Sharp? MR SNOEK MR MBANDAZAYO And after that you sought an approval from Mr Nkonki to carry on the mission? MR SNOEK MR MBANDAZAYO And the approval was to get weapons from the farm that you were given? MR SNOEK Yes. MR MBANDAZAYO And you did get weapons from the farm? MR SNOEK Yes MR MBANDAZAYO And also that, it is noticed that you also took your own initiative and you took some other items which included items which were mentioned in Court and also the vehicle? MR SNOEK MR MBANDAZAYO Now, after you took that initiative, what was your - why did you take that initiative, to take the other, the clothing and the vehicle which were not part of your, of the approval from Mr Nkonki? What were you going to do with the clothing and other items? MR SNOEK MR MBANDAZAYO Now you also - you were questioned here about, you indicated that you had undergone basic military training, where you a fully fledged member of APLA? MR SNOEK I was a recruiter. MR MBANDAZAYO So all in all what you are telling this Committee, you were not a fully fledged member of APLA? MR SNOEK MR MBANDAZAYO MR LAX CHAIRPERSON I think he said he was a recruiter. What is a recruiter? Someone who looks for people to go and serve in the army? MR MBANDAZAYO NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MBANDAZAYO CHAIRPERSON Dr Tsotsi do you have any further questions to ask? DR TSOTSI No I have no questions. MR LAX Thanks Chair. Just two small issues. Mr Snoek you said in your evidence that this chap Hermanus never bought dagga from you, you just helped him find a purchaser. Is that right? MR SNOEK Yes. MR LAX MR SNOEK The correct one is he used to arrive in the township to look for dagga and then I would organise for him to get the dagga. That is the correct one. MR LAX Now, why did you leave your training? MR SNOEK MR LAX MR SNOEK In 1985. MR LAX And so you gave up your training in 1985? MR SNOEK Yes. MR LAX MR SNOEK CHAIRPERSON What do you do to leave the country then? Many people in the past left the country by just going. MR SNOEK They had support from their leadership. CHAIRPERSON MR SNOEK CHAIRPERSON MR SNOEK No. I decided to participate locally, politically and locally. MR LAX Now, where was your base? CHAIRPERSON Training or APLA? MR LAX Once you - just one second ...(intervention) MS PATEL CHAIRPERSON We are aware of that, yes. What is the question about the base. The training base or? MR LAX At some point after leaving your training, and in-between your periods in jail, we understand that you established a base for yourself. Is that right? Yes. MR SNOEK Will you please repeat your question. It is not clear to me. MR LAX What I understand from all the documents before us, is that you established a base for yourself. CHAIRPERSON What do you mean a base? A place or a ...? MR LAX MR SNOEK Your first question asked me about which base do I know. Now I want to say to you there are many bases that we had in Transkei. We had bases in KwaXmashe, further down there was another one in Nmaxwe. The one that I was using was between Butterworth and Idutshwa which was known as Gwadana. MR LAX Did you establish that base? ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Pleased be quiet. MR SNOEK These are the bases that I know. I never establish any base for myself. The base that I was working in is the one known as Gwadana. MR LAX MR SNOEK No, its not true. MR LAX Well he will have to explain why he says you told him that. Thank you Chairperson. I have no further questions. CHAIRPERSON Adv Bosman? ADV BOSMAN Thank you Chairperson. Mr Snoek, do I understand you correctly, that you had before this incident about which you have given evidence today, taken two rifles from the same home? MR SNOEK I only got one rifle in this incident. ADV BOSMAN No, prior to this incident you said you had taken rifles, is it correct that you had prior to this incident, taken two rifles? What did you do with those rifles? MR SNOEK I gave the rifles to the organisation. ADV BOSMAN Did you not sell them? Did you not sell them to the organisation? MR SNOEK We are not selling rifles in the organisation. ADV BOSMAN If you look at page 49 of the bundle of documents. CHAIRPERSON Page 49, second paragraph, at the top. ADV BOSMAN You were asked about how you knew about the safe and your answer as its recorded here is that you said "On a previous occasion I had broken in there and I took two rifles. I had sold these rifles in the Transkei". What do you say to that? MR SNOEK ADV BOSMAN To whom did you give the rifles? To which person? MR SNOEK I gave the rifles to the Gwatana base. ADV BOSMAN MR SNOEK There was another Comrade there, whom I was communicating with known as Vusilinxolo. ADV BOSMAN And where did this happen? At the base? Where did you give the rifles to him? At the base? MR SNOEK I gave the rifles to the organisation, handed them to Vusilinxolo. ADV BOSMAN At the base? MR SNOEK Yes. ADV BOSMAN Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Mr Snoek, the deceased, how many times did you strike her with the butt of the rifle? MR SNOEK CHAIRPERSON Was she ever struck with a spade or a shovel? MR SNOEK Not in my presence Sir. Maybe I was not there when that was done. CHAIRPERSON Please keep quiet. Did you see your co-applicant, Mr Tshikila strike the deceased at all? MR SNOEK CHAIRPERSON When the break ins and these robberies occurred, were you sober? MR SNOEK I am not drinking sir, I was sober. CHAIRPERSON Mr Lax, you said you wanted a further question. MR LAX Thank you Chairperson. Just one thing Mr Snoek, this conflict that you were talking about, what conflict was it in kwaNobuhle? MR SNOEK It was a conflict between the UDF and amaAfrica? MR LAX So why would PAC people need to get involved in that conflict, it had nothing to do with them? MR SNOEK If you look in my affidavit sir, you would see that I said I joined the PAC through AZANIO, at that time it was AZANIO, not PAC. MR LAX It still begs the question. Why would PAC people or AZANIO people who were not part of the UDF, why would they be in conflict with amaAfrica? MR SNOEK Are you referring to the whites? MR MBANDAZAYO Mr Chairperson, I think there is a problem in the interpretation, I don't know. MR LAX Perhaps I can repeat myself. CHAIRPERSON Yes, perhaps if Mr Lax, let Mr Lax repeat the question and if you can just monitor the interpretation. MR LAX The conflict was between the UDF which as we all know, is a (indistinct) organisation or was an (indistinct) organisation, and amaAfrica, which was a vigilante organisation, a conservative organisation, correct? MR SNOEK Are you talking about Africans, sorry amaAfrica? MR LAX Precisely. There was a vigilante organisation which was operating in some of the Eastern Cape towns, in the same way that the Witdoeke were operating in the Cape and it was called amaAfrica in die Eastern Cape. MR MBANDAZAYO Mr Chairperson, I think that will cause a lot of problems because definitely, it was interpreted as vigilante group and it was a group, who were referring to, which was a PAC group there. MR LAX Are you saying there was a PAC group in kwaNobuhle calling itself amaAfrica? MR MBANDAZAYO Definitely Mr Chairperson, there was PAC members were calling themselves Africans, and they were called amaAfrica. MR LAX And they were in conflict with UDF? MR MBANDAZAYO Yes, Mr Chairperson. MR LAX Thank you, that is very helpful. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mbandazayo, do you have any questions arising out of questions that have been put by the members of the panel? MR MBANDAZAYO None Mr Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MBANDAZAYO CHAIRPERSON Thank you, thank you Mr Snoek, you may stand down, that is the end of your evidence. WITNESS EXCUSED . CHAIRPERSON I see it is now 4 o'clock, I think this will be a convenient time to adjourn. Until what time, are you staying in Port Elizabeth Mr Mbandazayo? MR MBANDAZAYO Yes, Mr Chairperson, I am staying around now for the hearing. CHAIRPERSON We've got another matter tomorrow as well. I am just worried, it has been suggested half past eight, I don't know if the authorities will be able to get your clients here by half past eight. I wonder if you can perhaps just ask the people from the Department, what time they can get here in the morning, either half past eight, if not that, 9 o'clock. MR LAX Perhaps you could make special arrangements to help us. MR MBANDAZAYO Thank you Mr Chairperson, they are saying that they can try their best, they say the latest would be quarter to nine. CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much, thank you. We have now come to the end of today's hearing. The matter will be postponed to proceed tomorrow morning in this hall, at half past eight in the morning, or so soon thereafter as we can start. Mr Dingani, do we need to - I think with regard Mr Mbandazayo's, with regard to Mr Dingani's application, we will just remove it from the roll to be placed on the roll at a later stage? MR MBANDAZAYO Thank you Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Just put it on record that you are appearing for him as well. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS