amntrans AMNESTY HEARING 1998-10-22 DURBAN 4 MR DUMISANI J SIBISI AM 3383/96 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=52929&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1998/98101922_dbn_dbn4_.htm ADV PRIOR Thank you, Mr Chairman, may we proceed with the matter of Sibisi and Cele? That is the matter that stood down or stood over from Monday, Mr Chairman. MR WILLS May I be excused at this stage, Members of the Committee? MR WILLS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] ADV PRIOR We're going to hear it, Mr Chairman. Bongani Cele and Dumisani Sibisi, AM 3383/96 and AM 6351/97 was adjourned from Monday until today. Mr Chairman, may I place on record the following: Both the applicants were released from prison on parole. Present today is Mr Dumisani Sibisi who has via his attorney, Mr Samuel indicated that they wish to proceed with the application. Mr Bongani Cele is not present. My information that from his parole office, Mr Cele has failed to report on the various occasions that he was supposed to, as a result of which he and members of the witness protection and police went out into the Umzinto area where he resides to try and find him. He wasn't able to be found. However this morning I learnt from his co-applicant, Mr Sibisi, that he had been requested by the parole officer and also our witness protection, Mr Sadar Govender to possibly see if he could contact Mr Cele, which he did. Mr Sibisi confirmed this morning to me that he had spoken to Mr Cele the day before yesterday, had explained to him why the matter was adjourned to today and Mr Cele indicated to him that he was not interested in proceeding with his application. I think Mr Samuel will or I will be able to lead that evidence or ask those questions or possibly the Committee may even confirm that from Mr Sibisi once he is placed under oath. So in the circumstances, Mr Chairman, I would submit that it would be equitable that Mr Sibisi be heard insofar as his amnesty application is concerned. All the victims are present, and there are five. I have consulted with all of them and they have all indicated to me that they do not oppose the application. And all have indicated quite magnanimously, Mr Chairman, that they have unconditionally forgiven Mr Sibisi. The only person that wishes to speak to Mr Sibisi at the end of these proceedings is Mrs Mabel Mahiba or Madiba. And that will be arranged with Mr Sibisi and his attorney. CHAIRPERSON So she wants to speak privately, not to the whole gathering? ADV PRIOR Privately to Mr Sibisi, and they've also indicated that they do not wish to testify but have requested me to place their circumstances before the Committee at the appropriate time. Thank you, Mr Chairman. MR SAMUEL I confirm my appearance on behalf of the applicant, Mr Dumisani Sibisi, Mr Chairman. We confirm that it is Mr Sibisi's intention to proceed with this application for amnesty. May I proceed? CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] MR SAMUEL Thank you. ADV POTGIETER Mr Sibisi, are your full names Dumisani Tokizani Sibisi? MR SIBISI That is correct. ADV POTGIETER Thank you. DUMISANI TOKIZANI SIBISI (sworn states) ADV POTGIETER Mr Samuel? EXAMINATION BY MR SAMUEL Mr Sibisi, do you confirm that you made an application for amnesty on the 10th of April 1998? MR SIBISI Would you please repeat the question? MR SAMUEL Do you confirm that you made an application for amnesty on the 10th of April 1998? ADV POTGIETER 1996. MR SAMUEL 1996, my apologies. MR SIBISI Yes, that is correct. MR SAMUEL Do you confirm the statement that you've made in regard to that application? MR SIBISI Yes. MR SAMUEL I see. Would you like to tell the Commission what transpired on the day in question, when the incident took place where Madiba - there were two counts of murder and four counts of attempted murder ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Before we go on, he made two applications didn't he? I have an application ....[inaudible] November 1996 and the other application is as you said the 10th of April 1996. That is at page 5. You have the Zulu one and the translation as at page 15. MR SAMUEL Yes, I see ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Oh sorry, no, wait a bit, I'm making mistakes now am I. No, that's Sibisi yes. ...[inaudible] ADV PRIOR Mr Chairman, the copy at page 15 is headed "Translation" CHAIRPERSON Yes, ...[inaudible]. ADV PRIOR Yes, yes, thank you, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON One application is at page 2, the application in Zulu is at page 5 and the translation is at page 15. Can he confirm both of them? MR SAMUEL Mr Sibisi, can you confirm that you had made two applications for amnesty, the one in November and the other one in April 1996? MR SIBISI Yes, there are two applications that I made but there is only one application for amnesty, and the other application pertains to the fact that I was injured and I wanted to forgive people who injured me. MS KHAMPEPE Mr Samuel, I'm still not clear what he is saying, whether he has made two different applications in respect of different incidents. MR SAMUEL Mr Sibisi, just to get some clarity, were these two applications in any way different from each other, were they in respect of separate incidents or was it in regard to the same incident? MR SIBISI I'm only asking for amnesty for the matter that brought me here. I was in prison at the time and I was not sure whether my application would reach its destination, so that I wrote this on several pages. MS KHAMPEPE Who assisted you in filling in the first application form which you made on the 26th of November, did you fill this in in your own handwriting? Who assisted you in filling in the first application form for amnesty, the date of which is the 26th of April 1996, because the 10th of April was written in English? Now please have a look at the handwriting. MR SIBISI I wrote several applications really. MS KHAMPEPE Would you like to see the handwriting? MR SIBISI ...[no English translation] MS KHAMPEPE Can you assist him, Mr Samuel? CHAIRPERSON I may say that there appears to have been no acknowledgement of receipt or no number allocated to the first application, so the applicant was probably very wise and filled in the second one in November and which was given a number. MR SAMUEL It seems, Mr Chairman, that is the position because the first application, the applicant denies that that is his handwriting but he confirms that on the second application that is his signature. So there seems to be some confusion between the first application and the second application. May I then ask that the first application be dispensed with or scrapped and may the Commission proceed with the second application? CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR SAMUEL Thank you. May I then hand in the bundle of documents as Exhibit A in this matter, by agreement with the Evidence Leader? Thank you. May I then proceed, Mr Chairman? CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR SAMUEL Thank you. Mr Sibisi, you are presently on parole and out of prison, why is it that you want to proceed with this amnesty application? MR SIBISI It is because I want to prove to the victims that I did not do what I did because I hated the people, the deceased. I want to express my sincerest apology to them. I did not hate them and I want to make this clear. MR SAMUEL Could you tell this Commission, on the day in question how it came about that you all had targeted Mr Madiba and Mr Mthembu and the others that were in that vehicle? MR SIBISI I don't know where I should start, should I start at the point where they were being attacked or should I start before that? MR SAMUEL Before that please, if you could just put the Commission into the picture. MR SIBISI I think it was towards the end of 1990 and there was violence in that area, people were being attacked and killed and myself as a member of the ANC, an activist of the ANC observed that we had funerals almost every weekend. We then decided that ourselves as members of the SDU, we then decided that we should ambush the people who were involved in perpetrating this violence because they used to shout at us and they would tell us that they are coming on such and such a day, we should expect them and they indicated that they are coming. For example, they would say they are coming on Saturday and they would indeed come and kill people. A woman who was eight months pregnant was killed and we felt that something had to be done and we lay in ambush waiting for them to come so that we could attack them. People had fled their homes, removing their furniture. All women fled and settled in the bushes and then we decided that they should be attacked. MR SAMUEL Are you a member of any political party, Mr Sibisi? MR SIBISI Yes. MR SAMUEL And which political party did you follow? MR SIBISI The African National Congress. MR SAMUEL Are you still a member of the African National Congress? MR SIBISI Yes. MR SAMUEL Now you mentioned that the SDU took a decision to ambush these people, were you a member of the SDU at that stage? MR SIBISI Yes. MR SAMUEL I see. Now you told this Commission that you wanted to stop the violence because certain persons were telling that they would come on a certain date or a certain day to attack you, could you tell the Commission of the identity of these people? CHAIRPERSON Is it necessary at this stage to stir up the past in that way? Isn't it quite clear from the papers and the bundle you put before us that there was a very tense political situation in that area at the time? I must say I am impressed by the way that certain of the victims when they made statements, admitted frankly that there was political tensions there at the time. The applicant has said the same thing, and I don't know that it would serve any useful purpose to stir up again which we all know hope is something of the past, that we are now working together, living together in the new South Africa and we hope that we will forget the violence of the past. MR SAMUEL I withdraw that question, Mr Chairman. In this regard then, after the Commission has accepted the bundle of documents, I submit that this is the application on behalf of the applicant in this matter, unless there is any other questions that need to be asked. CHAIRPERSON Mr Prior? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY ADV PRIOR Thank you. It seems clear that he endorses his application and the facts upon which particularly his indictment was framed. In other words without re-canvassing all the facts, that they were part of this ambush. I possibly just need to canvass two or three aspects. It's common cause, Mr Sibisi, that the vehicle of the deceased and his companions was stopped on the Sykor Bridge by means of a tree or a log that had been placed across the road, is that correct? MR SIBISI No, that is not correct. ADV PRIOR Well how did you stop the vehicle? MR SIBISI We threw some petrol bombs at the car and we approached. ADV PRIOR And the petrol bombs exploded, is that correct, causing a fire? MR SIBISI That is correct. ADV PRIOR How were you armed on that day, did you have a weapon? MR SIBISI We were carrying the self-made guns. ADV PRIOR And your group, was it yourself, Cele and others? MR SIBISI That is correct. ADV PRIOR How many others? MR SIBISI There were many of us but there were five of us when we conducted this ambush. ADV PRIOR And it's correct that you've accepted that Mr Madiba and Mr Mthembu were killed and I think Mr R B Dube sustained burns on his body as a result of this attack? MR SIBISI Yes, that is correct, some people got injured. ADV PRIOR Thank you, Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV PRIOR CHAIRPERSON No further questions by the Committee. RE-EXAMINATION BY MR SAMUEL Mr Sibisi, what is your attitude at the present moment, have you changed your attitude, do you apologise for what you have done? MR SIBISI Yes, I have actually come here before the TRC Amnesty Committee to ask for amnesty. I'm very sorry and I am appealing to them to forgive me. I am very sorry about what actions I did. I feel sorry for the next-of-kin of the deceased. Thank you. MR SAMUEL Mr Sibisi, it was indicated by the convener that one of the victims' wife, spouse, would like to speak to you after this hearing, are you willing to go to her and apologise and speak to her? MR SIBISI Yes, I would like to speak to her but not in camera. This is for my own safety. MS KHAMPEPE Mr Samuel, do you intend to lead any further evidence? MR SAMUEL No, Your Worship. MS KHAMPEPE Is this the end of your client's case? MR SAMUEL That was the case for the applicant in this matter. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SAMUEL WITNESS EXCUSED ADV PRIOR Mr Chairman, would it be opportune for me just to place on record the particulars of the victims? They are very short particulars. I do have some notes here, if that could be handed up. CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] ADV PRIOR Can I maybe just place it on record and then hand up the notes. They were taken by the briefer as correct MRS MABEL MADIBA whose late husband, JOSEPH MADIBA was one of the deceased. He had worked for Sykor as a machine operator. He was the breadwinner. He left five children behind, they youngest is now presently in Grade 4, the second-youngest is in Grade 7 and the third in Standard 9. MRS THEMBISILE MTHEMBU, wife of one of the deceased is also unemployed. Her husband, KHIJA MTHEMBU was a builder at the Sykor plant. He left six children, four of them are still schooling, the youngest is in Grade 2. MR R B DUBE who is present was a worker at Sykor. He was a front seat passenger in the vehicle. He received hospitalisation for two months as a result of extensive burns that he sustained. He bears the scars today. His body is from the head to his legs and arms and torso, covered in quite bad scarring. I witnessed that myself. He is married with three children. Then there are two other gentlemen, MR AFRICA MBELE AND MR AARON MBELE who were supervisors at the Sykor plant, sorry worked for the Supervision Services at Sykor. They managed to escape the attack. They were at the rear of the vehicle of the bakkie and they were not injured in any way. I would ask leave to hand up that list and ask the Committee to refer these persons to the Committee for Reparations, thank you. I have no further evidence to place before the Committee, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Can either of you gentlemen tell me, is there a copy of the indictment anywhere? ADV PRIOR The indictment appears at page 44 of the bundle and the Summary of Substantial Facts at page 48. CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] INTERPRETER The speaker's mike is not activated. F I N D I N G 22.10.1998 CHAIRPERSON The applicant in this matter seeks amnesty in respect of two counts of murder, four counts of attempted murder ...[intervention] MS KHAMPEPE ...[inaudible] CHAIRPERSON Well where does that appear in the application? The application is only in respect of the murder and the attempted murder. The six counts all arise from the same incident, when a group of people attacked a vehicle and killed or sought to kill the passengers. Two of them, Dodo Joseph Madiba and Khija John Mthembu were killed. The other four, Ralph Dube, Mamagaluna Khomo, Aaron Mbele and Tokizani Mbele escaped with their lives but in some instances suffered serious injuries. This is was yet another of the incidents that arose out of the political tensions that existed in Kwazulu Natal at the time, that is on the 30th of April 1991. It is clear from the various statements contained in the bundle of papers put before us, that there was extreme tension on both sides and extreme hostility, that a state of almost warfare existed. There were killings of members of both sections and the applicant has given evidence to the effect that he was an active member of the ANC and of a self-defence unit in the area and that finally the decision was taken that they would have to take some strong action to advance their political prestige and position in the area with a view to ultimately reach some agreement that would result in the killings coming to an end. It has not been challenged, nor could it in my view on the information before us, that the acts committed were committed as part of a political group and that the intent was certainly one which could be classified as an act with a political objective. They used petrol bombs and shotguns and it was quite clearly a brutal attack in which people were unfortunately killed. We have with us today the widows of two of the deceased and also one of the men who has suffered grievous bodily harm. They have indicated that they do not oppose the application, that they seek reconciliation in the future, for which they are to be praised and thanked. We are satisfied that the applicant has made out a case for amnesty and we accordingly GRANT HIM AMNESTY IN RESPECT OF THE MURDER OF DODO JOSEPH MADIBA AND KHIJA JOHN MTHEMBU AT OR NEAR THE SYKOR BRIDGE, UMKOMAAS ON THE 30TH OF APRIL 1991, AND THE ATTEMPTED MURDER OF RALPH DUBE MAMAGALUMA KHOMO, AARON MBELE, TOKIZANI MBELE AT THE SAME DATE AND PLACE. We are satisfied on the information placed before us, that MRS MARY MADIBA, the widow of the first-named deceased IS A VICTIM and that she has been left a widow with three young children who are still at school. The same is true of MRS THEMBISILE MTHEMBU, the widow of the second deceased who has been left a widow with six children, four of whom are still at school. There are also the three survivors of the attack, MR R B DUBE, MR AFRICA MBELE AND MR AARON MBELE. We refer these persons to the R & R Committee for their consideration AS VICTIMS in terms of the relevant provisions of the Act.