amntrans AMNESTY HEARING 1998-11-02 JOHANNESBURG 1 GEORGE SAPELE https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=52943&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1998/98110205_jhb_jhnbrg1.htm MR SAPELE I joined the PAC in Krugersdorp at the prison. I was recruited by Borowsky Masilela, a member of the PAC. He indicated that I should go to Zimbabwe. I agreed and I did as agreed, that I should break from the prison. We took some money from the reception and I was later on arrested. MR MBANDAZAYO Now Mr Sapele, can you tell the Committee how did you escape from jail, how did you plan to escape from jail, in details. Please tell the Committee, they were not there, all of us we don't know what actually happened. How did you come to this decision to escape from jail? Tell the Committee that? MR SAPELE Boris and I had a discussion and we agreed that I should join him so that we can become, so that I can become part of the PAC. CHAIRPERSON What did you do to escape, how did you escape? MR SAPELE We killed a police and we fled. MR MBANDAZAYO How did you flee? You killed the police, what did you do after killing the police? Why did you kill the policeman? MR SAPELE The police did not want to give us the keys to the prison and we managed to overpower him and ultimately we took some money from the reception. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, before you proceed. You say you killed a policeman because he didn't want to give you the keys, do you mean, was it actually a policeman you killed or was it a prison warder? MR SAPELE It was a prison warder. MR MBANDAZAYO Are you saying to this Committee that this prison warder was having keys of the jail which can access you outside the jail? MR SAPELE Yes, the keys would actually enable us to access the reception, from where we would be in the position to obtain other keys to other gates. MR MBANDAZAYO So after killing this policeman, you managed to get the keys which you used to go to the reception? MR SAPELE Yes, that is correct, we went to the reception with the keys and we ... MR MBANDAZAYO What did you do on your arrival at the reception? MR SAPELE Pardon? MR MBANDAZAYO What did you do on your arrival at the reception? MR SAPELE We took some money once we were at the reception and we also took the keys that would enable us to gain access to the outside. We exited the prison and we were pursued by the police, or should I say the prison warders apprehended us outside the prison. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, Mr Sapele, I notice from your application you say that a police officer was injured, you don't talk about killing a prison warder in your application and now you say that you killed him, what is the position? MR SAPELE Here I am referring to the offence that I'm talking about where a policeman died is actually a matter that I came across in Court. CHAIRPERSON I don't quite follow, Mr Mbandazayo, I was under the impression that he said that he killed a warder who he referred to a policeman, in order to get the keys to get into reception to get money to get out and now he's talking about killing a policeman in the courtroom. MR MBANDAZAYO Thank you, Mr Chairperson. Let me try and lead him in a way that - but my understanding is that he came across at Court that this policeman died, the prison warder. He was aware in Court. Let me get it from here for him to confirm. At the time you wanted these keys from this policeman, when you left him was he dead or was he injured? MR SAPELE When we left he was still alive. We only heard when we were arrested that he had died, that is the prison warder. CHAIRPERSON Now if that is the case, Mr Sapele, why then do you only apply for, why don't you apply for murder in your amnesty application? MR SAPELE There is one policeman who died and there are other policemen who got injured at the reception. MR MBANDAZAYO Mr Chairperson, if I may clarify. I think the reason when I went through with him was that they were acquitted of murder in the High Court, of the policeman. CHAIRPERSON Yes, continue. MR SAPELE That is correct. MR MBANDAZAYO Now let's go the reception. You are now at the reception, what did you do at the reception? Can you tell the Committee how many were you when you were doing this? You have mentioned Masilela who is your co-applicant, were only two of you involved in the whole thing? MR SAPELE There were 26 of us when we arrived at the reception. We took some cash from the safe as well as the keys and we exited the prison. MR MBANDAZAYO Tell the Committee, you arrived at the reception, I know that you took keys and money, how did you do that? How many people were at the reception when you arrived and what did you do to those people? MR SAPELE We apprehended the two policemen who were at the reception, we opened up the safe and we retrieved the money that was inside the safe, as well as the keys and we went out. MR MBANDAZAYO Now you told the Committee that your intention of the escaping, according to your plan with Masilela, was to go outside the country, why did you take money, not the keys so that you can run away and go? MR SAPELE It was an instruction from Boris Masilela that we should take the money so as to enable us to travel or to use it to travel to wherever we wanted to. MR MBANDAZAYO Now after you had taken the money, what happened? MR SAPELE We were arrested just outside the prison, after we had taken the money as well as the keys. We were brought back to the prison. MR MBANDAZAYO How many of you were arrested? MR SAPELE 19 of us but the rest escaped, I think there were 9. MR MBANDAZAYO Am I correct that you were charged for escaping and also of murder and robbery? MR SAPELE Yes, that is correct, murder, armed robbery as well as escaping from lawful custody. MR MBANDAZAYO Can you tell the Committee how many of you were convicted of murder and escape and also armed robbery? MR SAPELE The 19 were found not guilty of murder, I was found guilty of robber, armed robbery because I was in possession of the cash. MR MBANDAZAYO Are you telling the Committee that you are the only person who was found guilty of armed robbery? MR SAPELE That is correct. MR MBANDAZAYO And the others were convicted of escaping? MR SAPELE That is correct. MR MBANDAZAYO Now you have applied for amnesty, can you tell the Committee, you have ...(indistinct) to the Committee that you were in prison, can you tell the Committee when you joined the PAC in prison, why were you in prison? MR SAPELE I was a follower of the PAC and at the time I came across Borowsky I was already an avid follower of the PAC but not a card-carrying member. CHAIRPERSON The question, Mr Sapele, the question asked by Mr Mbandazayo was, when you met Mr Masilela in prison, why were you in prison? MR SAPELE Theft. MR MBANDAZAYO Now you were convicted of theft and you were serving sentence, what was your sentence, six years, am I correct? MR SAPELE Yes, I found guilty and I was given a sentence of six years. MR MBANDAZAYO Now you are applying for amnesty before the Committee, can you tell the Committee why should you be granted amnesty for escaping from prison and armed robbery in prison? MR SAPELE I was asking the Committee to give me amnesty because I committed the said deeds. MR MBANDAZAYO Yes, the Committee knows that you committed the offence but what is the reason why they should give you the amnesty for that? MR SAPELE The reason is that Boris Masilela instruction me as my commander. MR MBANDAZAYO Now can you tell the Committee, would you have committed escape from prison and committed armed robbery had you not been recruited by Boris Masilela? MR SAPELE I would not have committed any of the said deeds or the deeds that I was found guilty of having committed. MR MBANDAZAYO That is all at this stage, Mr Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MBANDAZAYO CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Mbandazayo. Mr Mpshe, do you have any questions to put to the witness? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY ADV MPSHE Yes, Mr Chairman, thank you. Mr Sapele, would I be correct to state that the purpose, or the reason for escaping was to gain your freedom? MR SAPELE The main reason was for me to go to Zimbabwe together with Borowsky. ADV MPSHE And the money that you took during the robbery that was not used for PAC purposes but for personal use, am I correct? MR SAPELE No, that is not correct, because Boris had actually said that we were going to use the money to travel to Zimbabwe in order to fulfil further aims of the PAC. ADV MPSHE Ja, the point I'm trying to make is that the money was for personal use, for travelling purposes, am I right? MR SAPELE That is correct, we were going to use it to travel. ADV MPSHE Now when you say you were recruited in jail and became a member, what do you mean by saying you were a member? MR SAPELE Could you please repeat the question? ADV MPSHE What do you mean when you say you were a member of PAC? MR SAPELE I was recruited by Borowsky to be a member of the PAC because I was already a supporter. ADV MPSHE Had Borowsky informed you about what PAC is all about, just general information about the organisation you wanted to be a member of? MR SAPELE No, he never did. ADV MPSHE But you had agreed to become a member? MR SAPELE Yes, I did because Borowsky recruited me to join and I was already a supporter of the PAC. ADV MPSHE How do you join an organisation you don't understand, you don't know what it is about? MR SAPELE He was still going to brief me about the organisation but at some stage I was transferred from 1 Prison, that was where I was to another one. ADV MPSHE I see. If I'm not right you must say so, will I be correct to say that the full briefing about PAC as a structure and what it is all about was going to be done after your escape, your successful escape, will I be correct? MR SAPELE I was travelling with him because I did not know the place, I did not know Zimbabwe. ADV MPSHE No, no, I'm not talking about Zimbabwe, I'm saying the full briefing, information to you about PAC, what it is about and everything about PAC was going to be done Masilela to you after the escape because in jail you did not do that. MR SAPELE Yes, he was still going to brief me because I had spent time with him and I was still going to spend time with him. ADV MPSHE And that was going to be after the escape? MR SAPELE That's correct. ADV MPSHE Good. Now at the time of committing this offence, the robbery inside jail, you were not yet informed about PAC at all? MR SAPELE I did not know their policies at that stage. ADV MPSHE That will be all, Mr Chairman, thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV MPSHE CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Mpshe. Mr Mbandazayo, do you have any re-examination? RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO Yes, one, Mr Chairperson. Mr Sapele, when you met Borowsky Masilela in prison as you have already told that he recruited you to PAC, what did he say to you? ADV MPSHE Mr Chairman, but this is going to be new evidence and not re-examination, and this would be a direct follow-up on my questions to the applicant, unless the Chair and the Committee allows that type of a question. CHAIRPERSON Does it arise out of the questions put by Mr Mpshe? MR MBANDAZAYO Thank you, Mr Chairperson. Mr Chairperson, not necessarily directly Mr Chairperson, but indirectly because he was asked about his, about the PAC, how did he escape in prison, was he told before he escaped ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON I'll allow it, Mr Mbandazayo, seeing that we are not busy conducting a trial at the moment. There is a little bit more flexibility than usual. MR MBANDAZAYO Thank you, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON But I'll give, if necessary, Mr Mpshe another bite at the cherry if he wants on this point. MR MBANDAZAYO Thank you, Mr Chair. Mr Sapele, what did he tell you when he was recruiting you? MR SAPELE He told me that PAC was a liberation movement and I should join so that we can be liberation fighters and fight the oppression as a black nation, the oppression of the black nation by the then white regime. MR MBANDAZAYO And nothing more did he tell you about PAC? MR SAPELE No. MR MBANDAZAYO That's all, Mr Chairperson, thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MBANDAZAYO CHAIRPERSON Mr Mpshe, do you have anything? ADV MPSHE Mr Chairman, I won't enjoy the cherry, thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV MPSHE CHAIRPERSON Advocate Bosman, do you have any questions to ask the witness? ADV BOSMAN Mr Sapele, at what time was it more or less that you escaped from prison? MR SAPELE It was on the 21st of March, 1 o'clock midday, it was on a Sunday. ADV BOSMAN When did Mr or Borowsky, when did he recruit you, on what date more or less? MR SAPELE He recruited me during January 1990. ADV BOSMAN And these other people who escaped with you, where were they going to go, do you know? MR SAPELE They were also members of the PAC. ADV BOSMAN No, but my question is, where were they going to go? MR SAPELE I wouldn't know that because I was going to go with another group, that is Borowsky and the other group but Borowsky and myself were arrested. ADV BOSMAN How long had you been outside before you were captured? MR SAPELE It could have been four hours. ADV BOSMAN And you'd kept the money with you personally all the time? MR SAPELE That is correct. ADV BOSMAN Why didn't you give it to Borowsky, he was the commander? MR SAPELE Borowsky? ADV BOSMAN Yes. MR SAPELE I was also with him and he also had some cash in his possession. ADV BOSMAN Tell me, what sentence are you serving at the moment for this robbery? MR SAPELE I got 15 years for the armed robbery. ADV BOSMAN In your form you state that you are asking for amnesty for armed robbery, did you have a firearm with you? MR SAPELE Yes, we had a knife as well as a gun. ADV BOSMAN Where did you get the gun from? MR SAPELE A certain policeman gave us the gun. ADV BOSMAN Did he give it to you voluntarily or did you ask him for it or how did it come about? MR SAPELE We spoke to him and he actually slipped the gun inside the cell. ADV BOSMAN Who was this policeman? MR SAPELE Matibela. ADV BOSMAN Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Advocate Motata, do you have any questions to ask the witness? ADV MOTATA Thank you, Mr Chairperson, about two. Mr Sapele, at reception when the 19 of you got there, who had the gun and who had the knife, because we learn that you were 19? MR SAPELE I had the knife, Banani had the gun. ADV MOTATA I see on your application form, that would be the paginated papers, page 45, you look at 7(a) you say, the question is "If you were an officer or political liberation movement .." Do you see that kind of sentence there? You say: "Pan Africanist Congress (a cadre, a supporter)." Do you see that? MR SAPELE Yes. ADV MOTATA I just want clarity there. Whilst you were in prison you were not a trained APLA member, wouldn't I be correct in assuming that? MR SAPELE Yes, I had not yet been trained, I was not a trained cadre. ADV MOTATA You were still going to be trained had you succeeded getting to Zimbabwe? MR SAPELE That is correct. ADV MOTATA How did you know that there was money in reception? MR SAPELE We usually see it when we pass the reception. ADV MOTATA So the understanding was that not only escaping, you had to take the money as well? You didn't want to just escape and probably find your way to Zimbabwe but you wanted the money as well? MR SAPELE Boris Masilela said we should also take the money. ADV MOTATA How much was it? MR SAPELE They retrieved a thousand rand and a few rands, a few hundred rand from me. ADV MOTATA How many people were at the reception when you committed this armed robbery? MR SAPELE We were 26. ADV MOTATA No, I mean the actual people you found at reception. MR SAPELE There were about 40 people at the reception. ADV MOTATA I don't follow. Which are now the 40 people, I don't follow. MR SAPELE Could you please repeat your question? ADV MOTATA What I'm asking you is that you had to via reception, to get the keys and money, did I understand you correctly? MR SAPELE That is correct. ADV MOTATA Now I say the personnel of the prison who were guarding the reception, how many people were there? That is the people you robbed the money from. MR SAPELE There were two. ADV MOTATA Did you open the safe yourselves or did you ask them to open the safe? MR SAPELE I apprehended the white policeman and ordered him to open up the safe. ADV MOTATA After he had done so, did you actually take the money or part of the 19 took the money? Did you participate in taking the money? MR SAPELE I took the money, the others also did, that is the rest of the group. ADV MOTATA Assist us, Mr Sapele, I see you are 19, it's quite a crown, 19, and the reception is two people, you all 19 of you or some of you or how many went to the safe, because you had apprehended this white person? Did you all go to the safe or approximately how many people went for the safe? MR SAPELE I think at the safe there were about six of us. ADV MOTATA The impression I got - please correct me, I just want clarity, is that you were apprehended, that is arrested not very long after and you gave an indication of four hours, where precisely were you people arrested? MR SAPELE At the cemetery, just next to the prison quarters. ADV MOTATA And how far is this cemetery from the prison? MR SAPELE ...[no English translation] ADV MOTATA Yes, Sir. MR SAPELE Quite near, actually very near the prison. ADV MOTATA Let's take it step by step, you access your way out of prison, were you immediately followed or what was the situation? MR SAPELE We escaped and we came across two policemen who ran away. We proceeded into the graveyard and we were arrested whilst we were seeking refuge in a tree inside the cemetery or the graveyard. ADV MOTATA Your getting out of the prison towards this graveyard which isn't far from the quarters, the time lapse was four hours. Just for that because you are giving an indication that this is very near. MR SAPELE Yes. There is grass at the graveyard. We hid ourselves in the grass and Boris climbed on top of the tree and it was raining. I think they realised later that we had escaped or we were at the graveyard. ADV MOTATA I don't just follow there because my question is the time spell and you had mentioned that there were police at the gate and you had to run, the impression I get that it was noticed immediately that you people were escaping, would I be correct in understanding you so? MR SAPELE That is correct. ADV MOTATA So it wouldn't be that they realised later that you had escaped? MR SAPELE That is correct. ADV MOTATA Thank you, Chairperson, I've got no further questions. CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Motata. Were these other persons who escaped members of a gang, prison gang called the "Royal Airforce"? MR SAPELE I think there were some who were members of the gang. CHAIRPERSON Were you a member of the Royal Airforce gang? MR SAPELE No. CHAIRPERSON You say that you apprehended the white, you call him a policeman but I think he was a warder, and you had the knife, did you stab him? MR SAPELE No, I just scared him off with the knife that he should open the safe but I never tampered with him in any other way or injured him. CHAIRPERSON Do you know how he got injured? MR SAPELE He never got injured because he was present at the parade and he pointed me out, he identified me as the person who had scared him with a knife. CHAIRPERSON Now you say that one - you said earlier that one of the warders got killed and another one got injured, is that correct? MR SAPELE Yes, the one who died died at the cells, he did not die at the reception area. CHAIRPERSON What caused him to die, how did he get injured? Was he shot, stabbed, beaten to death? MR SAPELE We assaulted him. I think he was also killed by shock. CHAIRPERSON Did you personally assault him? MR SAPELE I just took the keys from him. Yes, I did assault him. CHAIRPERSON How did you assault him? MR SAPELE I hit him with the fist. CHAIRPERSON Do you know what that warder's name was? MR SAPELE I forgotten his name but I would know him, I think it's Sergeant Mwasheni. CHAIRPERSON The other warder that got injured in the reception, how did he get injured? MR SAPELE He was kicked and assaulted. CHAIRPERSON Did you kick and assault him at all? MR SAPELE Yes, I did. CHAIRPERSON What did you do to him? MR SAPELE I did all. I assaulted him, I kicked him. CHAIRPERSON How did you assault him? MR SAPELE I kicked and I also assaulted him with fists because he was refusing with the keys. CHAIRPERSON Was that warder's name, Mr Selebalo? MR SAPELE That is correct. ADV BOSMAN May I just come in here? Mr Sapele, you said you had a knife with you, how could you have assaulted him with your fists if you had knife? I don't understand that. MR SAPELE There were two people at the reception, the one who had the keys just handed the keys over to me after I had hit him with a fist, and Sergeant Steenkamp seemed to be the one who was stubborn, so I took up the knife and directed him to open up the safe and he complied. ADV BOSMAN So the first one you threatened with a knife and the second one you just assaulted? MR SAPELE Yes, that is correct. ADV MOTATA Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you. Mr Mbandazayo, do you have any questions arising out of the questions that have been put by members of the Panel? MR MBANDAZAYO None, Mr Chairperson. NO QUESTIONS BY MR MBANDAZAYO CHAIRPERSON Mr Mpshe? ADV MPSHE No questions, Mr Chairman, thank you. NO QUESTIONS BY ADV MPSHE CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Sapele, that concludes your evidence, you may stand down. WITNESS EXCUSED