amntrans AMNESTY HEARING 1998-11-03 JISS CENTRE, MAYFAIR JOHANNESBURG 2 PHILLIP FAIZEL MALEFANE https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=52946&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1998/98110205_jhb_jhnbrg2.htm CHAIRPERSON Good morning everybody. Today we will be dealing with the application of Mr Phillip Faizel Malefane. Before we commence I'll just introduce the panel to you. On my right is Advocate John Motata, he is an Advocate from Johannesburg and on my left is Advocate Francis Bosman and advocate from Cape Town and I am Selwyn Miller a judge from the High Court from the Eastern Cape, in particular the Transkei Division of the High Court. I'll just ask the legal representatives kindly to place their names on record. MR MBANDAZAYO Thank you Mr Chairperson and Honourable Members of the Committee, my name is Lungelo Mbandazayo, I'm representing the applicant in this matter. Thank you Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Mbandazayo. MR MPSHE Thank you Mr Chairman, Members of the Committee, I am J. M. Mpshe, for the TRC Amnesty in particular, thank you. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. The proceedings will be simultaneously translated and if you want to receive the translation you've got to be in possession of one of these devices, they are available and you can hear a simultaneous translation by using this. Mr Mbandazayo? MR MBANDAZAYO Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Chairperson, my first witness is the applicant himself, Mr Malefane, he is a Sesotho speaking and may he be sworn in Mr Chairperson? CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Malefane do you wish to take the oath or do you wish to make an affirmation of the truth? PHILLIP FAIZEL MALEFANE (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Chairperson I will try and lead the applicant, I don't have an affidavit also for this matter. Mr Malefane, can you tell the Committee when did you join the PAC? MR MALEFANE I joined the PAC in 1979. MR MBANDAZAYO Where did you join the PAC? MR MALEFANE In Maseru, Lesotho. MR MBANDAZAYO Who recruited you to the PAC? MR MALEFANE It was Bassie Mahase. CHAIRPERSON Could you spell that name please? MR MBANDAZAYO B-a-s-s-i-e M-a-h-a-s-e. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR MBANDAZAYO Who asked you to go to Lesotho in 1979 or were you recruited to go to Lesotho or did you go on your own. Is there anybody who persuaded you to go to Lesotho or was it your own initiative, tell the Committee please? MR MALEFANE I took a decision to go to Lesotho but at that time I was still in jail. In 1979 I escaped from jail and then I went to Lesotho where I met the members of the PAC. They influenced me to escape from jail and then after my escape I went to Lesotho. MR MBANDAZAYO Now how long did you stay in Lesotho? MR MALEFANE I didn't stay a long time in Lesotho. I went there in 1979 and then I came back in 1981 and I returned to South Africa. I went there in 1979, on the 8th August 1981 I came back to South Africa. MR MBANDAZAYO What were you doing from 1979 to 1981, before you came back to South Africa, in Lesotho? MR MALEFANE I was with the members of the PAC in Lesotho. They were teaching about many things, they were giving me crash courses. MR MBANDAZAYO Now you said that you came back in August 1981, who gave you instructions to come back to the country or was it again your own initiative to come back? MR MALEFANE I took a decision because in Lesotho I met the children who I helped to come back to South Africa. So I came back to South Africa because we needed money so that I could help these children. MR MBANDAZAYO Now you came back inside the country in August, what did you do on your arrival in the country? MR MALEFANE Unfortunately I was arrested, I was arrested on the 12 August in 1981. MR MBANDAZAYO And I presume you were convicted? MR MALEFANE That is correct Chairperson, I was convicted because they found two passports with me, Lesotho passport and South African passport and I was convicted for 108 days. CHAIRPERSON Is it 180 days or 108? MR MALEFANE That is six months, 180 days in solitary confinement. MR MBANDAZAYO Okay, let me ask you this way. At the time you left the country you escaped from prison and I presume you were serving a sentence at the time? MR MALEFANE I found guilty for repossess. CHAIRPERSON I think what Mr Mbandazayo is getting at, were you ever charged with escaping? MR MALEFANE That is correct, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Was the sentence for escaping included in that 180 days that you got? MR MALEFANE No Chairperson, it was not included. After finishing 180 days I was taken to Barberton, I went there to finish my sentence for escaping from jail. ADV. BOSMAN Sorry, can we just get this clear, the 180 days, was that for a conviction, was that a sentence or were you detained under the security legislation? I'm not quite sure on that? MR MALEFANE At Motabele, they've written on a card and they said I will stay there for 180 days while the police were still investigating under the Security Act. ADV. BOSMAN Thank you. MR MBANDAZAYO Thank you Mr Chairperson. When were you released in prison for the offence for which you escaped from prison? MR MALEFANE I was released on the 27th October 1986. MR MBANDAZAYO And after your release what were your activities? MR MALEFANE After my release I went back to Lesotho. MR MBANDAZAYO Yes, how long did you stay in Lesotho? MR MALEFANE I stayed in Lesotho from 1988 until 1990. MR MBANDAZAYO And I presume you came back from Lesotho? MR MALEFANE That is correct. MR MBANDAZAYO Now what were your activities inside the country on your arrival from Lesotho? MR MALEFANE I was a motor mechanic when I came back from Lesotho. MR MBANDAZAYO Okay now Mr Malefane, can you tell the Committee about this incident which happened on the 15th July 1991 which was at Stilfontein, which happened at Stilfontein. Can you tell the Committee who came up with this idea and who was involved and what was the reason? MR MALEFANE 1990 I met Mabena. It was at the ...(indistinct) welcome party. He came to me to ask money for transport to go to Transkei so that he could go there and train at task force. At that time I didn't have money with me so I took a decision that I should go out and get some money. I met a Chris Msimeni, then I asked money from him. I told him that there is an operation that I have to undertake. He said to me he doesn't have money, he will tell me, so we met other people, he introduced me to those people in 1981 and then we went to Stilfontein Mines. CHAIRPERSON It was said you were introduced in 1981, I think it should have been 1991? MR MBANDAZAYO That is correct, Mr Chairperson, it should have been 1991. MR MALEFANE Yes that is 1991. CHAIRPERSON Just one thing Mr Malefane, who is Chris Msimeni, who was he? MR MALEFANE We grew up together but he was an MK member, we grew up together. MR MBANDAZAYO Continue Mr Malefane. MR MALEFANE I met those guys who were three. We went out to reconnoitre the Stilfontein mines, we went there twice. For the third time when we went there, we were going to repossess. MR MBANDAZAYO Okay, can you tell the Committee who were these three guys, what was the names of the guys? MR MALEFANE It was Bonginkosi Mchunu, Bango Ngubane, Eric Ntani. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, just repeat those three names please Mr Malefane? I've got Bonginkosi Mchunu, Eric - what was his surname? MR MALEFANE Bango Ngubane and Eric Ntani. MR MBANDAZAYO Now was it the only three of you to make your reconnaissance or it was the only three of you who went for this operation at Stilfontein? MR MALEFANE I was the fourth one. When we went there for reconnaissance we were four. MR MBANDAZAYO Now take us through, on the day of the incident, how many were you, how were you armed and where did you get the weapons? MR MALEFANE On the day of the operation we were eight. We had two AK47's, two revolvers and one pistol. We driving three cars, the other one was a Chevrolet and two Fords, the other one was a bakkie and the other one was a sedan. That was on the 15th July 1991. We went to Stilfontein, our aim was to go there and repossess the money. We arrived there early in the morning, we waited there for the Fidelity Guard bakkie. When it arrived we advanced and we told them to stand still. They didn't do that and we started shooting and thereafter we also shot at them, one person was killed and the other one was injured. We took the money, we put it into the bakkie, I was driving that bakkie and then from there, on our way I saw a white car flickering to us. I didn't stop and then we advanced the cul de sac and I stopped there. The other cars which were following me started shooting at that car. I drove through the fence and then I ran away from the car. I got injured while I was driving through the fence and I was arrested and taken to the police station and then from the police station I was taken to Sebong Hospital. MR MBANDAZAYO Now Mr Malefane, you already told the Committee the four of you went to do the reconnaissance but on the day in question you were eight, you have not told the Committee what was the names of the other four, extra four, the eight. You have told us about four people, now the eight is now four you have not told the Committee of their names? MR MALEFANE That's Eric Williams, David Nene, Johannes Mkhizi, Aaron Lekarapa. CHAIRPERSON Sorry just - what was Aaron's second name please? MR MALEFANE That's Lekarapa. L-e-k-a-r-a-p-a. ADV. BOSMAN Could you just give us Mkhizi's first name please? MR MALEFANE Johannes. ADV. BOSMAN Johannes. MR MALEFANE That's Johannes Mkhize. CHAIRPERSON Sorry Nene's name was it? MR MALEFANE David. MR MBANDAZAYO Now Mr Malefane, you have told the Committee what happened and how did you plan and how did you carry out the operation at Stilfontein. Now you are appearing before the Committee, you are asking the Committee - you are applying for amnesty. Can you tell the Committee the reason why they should grant you amnesty for this operation? MR MALEFANE I'm applying for amnesty because the money that we went to repossess was going to be used to help the task force. It was going to be used for political purposes to train the task force s that we could disturb the councillors of the then government, that is why I'm asking for amnesty because this money was going to be used for the training of the task force. MR MBANDAZAYO That is all Mr Chairperson, no more questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MBANDAZAYO CHAIRPERSON Mr Mpshe do you have any questions to ask the witness? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MPSHE Mr Malefane, if I heard you correctly, in your evidence in chief you spoke or make mention of children that you saw in Lesotho and decided to go and get money for them, is that correct? MR MALEFANE That is correct. MR MPSHE What children are these? MR MALEFANE Those were the youth who crossed over to Lesotho. MR MPSHE Did you know them? MR MALEFANE Yes I knew them. MR MPSHE So when you crossed back out of Lesotho back into the country you were coming to get money to go and assist the youth in Lesotho, am I correct? MR MALEFANE That is correct Chairperson. MR MPSHE Now how did you hope to get the money to help the youth with? MR MALEFANE I was going to get this money at all costs, I would use all the means to help me to get that money. Either to go and ask money from my parents are to go and repossess it. MR MPSHE Is it correct then that this operation was intended to make you obtain to go back to Lesotho and help the youth there? MR MALEFANE I didn't undertake any operation then, that was in 1979. I didn't undertake any operation on my way back to South Africa. MR MPSHE Was this operation one of the means you were going to employ to get money for the children? MR MALEFANE Are you talking about this operation? MR MPSHE Ja, the Stilfontein operation, was it was one of the means to aid the children? MR MALEFANE That is correct, Chairperson. MR MPSHE So the money you were going to get from this operation was to be given to Lesotho children, the youth, let's call them youth? MR MALEFANE No it was not going to be help these youth in Lesotho. The money that we got from this operation was going to be given to be given Mabena because he asked me for money so that he could go and train the task force in Transkei, that is the operation we are talking about here. MR MPSHE You say you met Mabena in 1990 at Comrade Mothopeng's welcome. For how long had you known Mabena? MR MALEFANE It was the first time that I met Mabena at that welcome party. MR MPSHE You met him there for the first time and then he asked you for money to go to the Transkei? MR MALEFANE That is correct. MR MPSHE Did he know that you were capable of getting money or did he suspect that you have money to give to anybody who needed? MR MALEFANE We were introduced to one another and we held some discussions and from then he knew what I was doing at that time. That is why he came to me because he knew of my activities. CHAIRPERSON Sorry Mr Mpshe. Mr Malefane, what position did Mr Mabena hold, who was he? MR MALEFANE He was a member of APLA. MR MPSHE Was he in the leadership of APLA? MR MALEFANE He was a soldier. He was just a soldier there. MR MPSHE Right, now before meeting Mabena and before this operation had you carried out other repossession operations before? MR MALEFANE That is correct, Chairperson. MR MPSHE Which ones? MR MALEFANE In 1979 I carried out an operation, I was also arrested after that operation and I was sentenced to six years imprisonment and thereafter I escaped from jail and went to Lesotho. MR MPSHE Yes, in this 1979 operation was money involved? MR MALEFANE That is correct. MR MPSHE How much was it? MR MALEFANE I don't remember well. MR MPSHE Now in your discussion with Mabena did you tell him that you are capable of getting money? MR MALEFANE I told Mabena my ability to repair cars and my ability to help the youth in Lesotho, so I told him that if he needs some help he can come to me then I'll be able to help him. MR MPSHE And in the help that you promised him, you said you could get him money or did you say you could repair cars for him? MR MALEFANE Any kind of help, either to repair a car or money, I would help him. MR MPSHE I see. ADV. BOSMAN Excuse me Mr Mpshe, I just want to clear up something here. Did you say that you told him of your ability to obtain cars or to repair cars, I'm not sure if I have it right there? MR MALEFANE I told him about my ability to repair the cars. MR MPSHE Did you hold any position of leadership in the PAC? MR MALEFANE No I did not. MR MPSHE Were you a full member? MR MALEFANE That is correct, Chairperson. MR MPSHE You had a membership card? MR MALEFANE In 1979 we didn't have membership cards. MR MPSHE You see why I'm asking you this is because you - the answers you've been giving to me, the answers are trying to paint a picture of a person who was some form of leadership of doing things for the PAC. Am I correct. MR MALEFANE I was not a leader, I was just an activist, I was just helping. MR MPSHE Alright, if you have got the application form in front of you, look at page 1 of the application and look in particular paragraph 7(b). I'll read for convenience, it says "State capacity in which you served in the organisation, institution, body or liberation movement concerned, if applicable and membership number if any." and you say there: "To liberate the country." Is being an activist not a capacity within an organisation or a foot soldier not a capacity within an organisation? MR MALEFANE I thought that this refers to positions like presidents, at that time I was just an ordinary member, I didn't have any position in the organisation, I was just an activist, an active member in the organisation. I didn't take it as a person who has a position in the organisation, I was just active in the organisation. MR MPSHE I see, is being an activist or a foot soldier not a capacity in an organisation, not leadership, capacity? MR MALEFANE Yes that is correct, it's a capacity. MR MPSHE Why was it not written here you were an activist? MR MALEFANE Yes I did not write, I agree that that's a mistake. MR MPSHE Turn to page 3, the paginated page 3. Now was there - did any person in the leadership of PAC order or authorise this operation? MR MALEFANE No one gave the go ahead for this operation. I only received instructions from the high command of APLA so as the make the government of the day ungovernable. I took a decision on my own and that was promulgated by the ANC President, Oliver Tambo. He also said that we must keep the government of the day ungovernable and the people should arm themself. That is why I took a decision and decided that I should go ahead with this operation to repossess. MR MPSHE But Mr Malefane, that was an ANC instruction to ANC cadres and activists? MR MALEFANE It was not only directed to the ANC soldiers, PAC was working together with other African liberation movements. MR MPSHE Was it a policy of the ANC to repossess or the policy of PAC? MR MALEFANE It was the PAC policy. MR MPSHE Now how could you do what you have done for the PAC policy on instruction by ANC which if it was not their policy to repossess? MR MALEFANE My understanding was that every member of the liberation movement, you would take a decision from any person who has an influential position. When he spoke he generalised he said that that people should arm themselves so as to make the country ungovernable. Those were nice words because we were oppressed so when you hear such words, as a human being you will take those words. MR MPSHE I won't take it further Mr Chairman, I think it's a point for argument. Let's go to page 4? On page 4 under paragraph 9.4, 10. and other pages I did not mention as well as your evidence in chief, you make mention of a robbery with intention of accumulating capital for the task force. The word task force goes on and on and on. What was this task force, what did it consist of? MR MALEFANE That was part of the PAC, it's main function was to further the struggle inside the country. MR MPSHE Ja but Mr Malefane, if you were involved in these things, every task force had a commander or a director thereof and members in the task force. Just tell us who were they, who was the commander of the task force? PAC had a lot of task forces with commanders and members. MR MALEFANE I only know them by their comrade names, I don't know their real names. MR MPSHE Who was the director of operations? MR MALEFANE Which operation are you talking about? MR MPSHE Operations carried out by the PAC in the operation units. MR MALEFANE It was Sabelo Palma. MR MPSHE He was the director. Let's leave it there. MR MALEFANE He was in the high command. MR MPSHE Have you heard of any task force that was referred to as the Beauty Salon? MR MALEFANE There are so many task forces in the PAC. There are other secrets but you have to reveal ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Sorry Mr Malefane, the question was simple, have you heard of a task force called the Beauty Salon? MR MPSHE Maybe Mr Chairperson just to put it in a unit within the PAC which was code named Beauty Salon within the APLA, you can put it that way, it was also catering for task forces. CHAIRPERSON Just rephrase your - repeat your question Mr Mpshe. MR MPSHE Mr Malefane, did you know of a unit that was within the PAC and this was also a repossession unit called the Beauty Salon? MR MALEFANE No I didn't know that unit. MR MPSHE Did you know any person who was a commander by the name of Maseko? He is an African. Mr Chair, when I say African I mean PAC, I'm sorry. MR MALEFANE Yes I know him. MR MPSHE Good, did you know the unit he was responsible for, the task force he was responsible for? MR MALEFANE No I don't. MR MPSHE Let's leave it there. Now I'm going back to my question, the task force you are referring to you, which one is it, who was it's commander? MR MALEFANE The commander was Nkosi Nati. MR MPSHE Nkosi Nati who? MR MALEFANE He was a member of that task force. MR MPSHE And what was the code name of that task force? MR MALEFANE He tell me about it's name but he was the commander of that task force. MR MPSHE Now turn to page 9, paginated Mr Chair. This is the letter you forwarded to TRC when responding to it's questions. I'm interested in paragraph I think one but let me read the whole thing. That's where you say, where you mention the people with whom you operated, Bonginkosi Mchunu, Johannes Mkhize, Eric Williams, Bango Ngubane, David Nene, then you say their addresses all of them are at Johannesburg Medium C prison. Do you see that? MR MALEFANE Yes I do. MR MPSHE Then you continue saying "the rest of them they don't belong to any political organisation." MR MALEFANE Yes I do. MR MPSHE Now if this operation was PAC task force operation, repossessing, how do you involve people who are not members of the PAC in a PAC operation? MR MALEFANE I took the decision and these people didn't know what we are going to do at that place, they didn't know why I'm going to repossess that mine. They were not supposed to know. MR MPSHE You haven't answered my question, I will repeat it for you. How do you involve non-members in an organisation, in the operation of an organisation because it is PAC organisation, it should have been seen to have found that people who have operated therein were members of that task force or members of APLA. Now all these were non-members all of them, how do you do that? MR MALEFANE I went to Chris Msimeni Langa to ask for money and then he said to me he won't have money for more. He further said to me that he will introduce me to other people who will accompany me to go and deposit this money. He then introduced me to David Nene and others. CHAIRPERSON Who was Chris Langa, what position did he hold? MR MALEFANE Chris Langa was a member of the MK. MR MPSHE Did he hold any position of leadership? MR MALEFANE No Chairperson, he was not in the leadership. CHAIRPERSON So he was an ANC cadre, not PAC. MR MALEFANE That is correct, Chairperson. MR MPSHE Did Chris Langa know that the operation you want to do you were doing for the purposes of PAC? MR MALEFANE Yes he did. MR MPSHE And he's the one who took you to non-members either to ANC nor to PAC? MR MALEFANE That is correct, Chairperson. MR MPSHE Mr Malefane, didn't you find it funny that you were introduced to people who were non-members of PAC for a PAC operation. Didn't you find that dangerous? MR MALEFANE That did not surprise me because I trusted Chris Langa, we grew up together, he knew all my activities. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mpshe, would this be a convenient time for the adjournment? I see it's now past 11 o'clock, we'll have a short tea adjournment. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION CHAIRPERSON Mr Mpshe? MR MPSHE Mr Chairperson can I just be afforded one minutes to look at my notes quickly? CHAIRPERSON Certainly. MR MPSHE (continues) Mr Malefane, just one last question on the leadership of PAC and perhaps APLA in particular. Do you know a person by the code name of Happy? Happy. PHILLIP FAIZEL MALEFANE (s.u.o.) No sir. MR MPSHE Do you know a person by the code name of Oumajas? MR MALEFANE No sir. MR MPSHE Do you know a person called Letlape Mpashlele? MR MALEFANE Yes sir. MR MPSHE Good. What was his position in the leadership of PAC? MR MALEFANE He was a high commander or he is a high commander. I am talking under correction, you have asked me this question previously regarding his position. I do know him but it's just that I cannot recall precisely what his actual position is. MR MPSHE Have you met him before? Yes I have sir. MR MALEFANE Yes I have sir. MR MPSHE Good. If I tell you that he was actually the person in charge of units, repossessing units, what would you say? MR MALEFANE Yes I would agree with you on that. MR MPSHE Good, did you ever have any talk with him about this operation of the high commander of such operations? MR MALEFANE No, but regarding this operation I never got in contact with him. MR MPSHE Thank you Mr Chairman, that will be all. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MPSHE CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Mpshe. Mr Mbandanzayo, do you have any re-examination? MR MBANDAZAYO None Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Advocate Bosman, do you have any questions to ask the witness? ADV. BOSMAN Thank you Chairperson. When you were in prison for the first repossession exercise which you mentioned later on, did you maintain any contact with the PAC in Lesotho or within the country at all? MR MALEFANE Yes I had contact. ADV. BOSMAN With whom did you have this contact? MR MALEFANE It was Mofokeng. ADV. BOSMAN Now who was Mofokeng? MR MALEFANE He was a PAC member. ADV. BOSMAN And what was the nature of the contact, what information did you exchange? MR MALEFANE He is the one who persuaded me to escape from prison and should I manage, I should leave for Lesotho. ADV. BOSMAN Once or twice you made mention of people knowing about your activities and you telling people about your activities. You testified that Mabena, when you spoke to him at the welcome party, that he knew of your activities. What were these activities that he knew about? MR MALEFANE The assistance that I gave the youth to leave the country and also financial assistance when they needed. ADV. BOSMAN How many times did you render financial assistance and where did the money come from? MR MPSHE My grandfather was a taxi owner and therefore he assisted me. It was finance that we got from his taxi business. ADV. BOSMAN So it was never finance coming from any repossession activities? MR MALEFANE No. ADV. BOSMAN Could you just look at your statement on page 17 of the bundle. This was part of a statement or confession made to Lieutenant Radley. About the middle of the page and you are there referring to Eric Ntani. It reads "Eric was daar" ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON I don't know, do the interpreters need this to be read in Afrikaans or in English? INTERPRETER We prefer it to be read in English please. CHAIRPERSON Thank you, so Advocate Bosman will render her own interpretation into English for purposes of translation into Sesotho. ADV. BOSMAN: "Eric was there, he then told me that I must go with him to a mine at Stilfontein. Eric was selling clothes there. He also said that the truck from Fidelity Guards would bring money to the mine." Do you have that? MR MALEFANE Yes ma'am. ADV. BOSMAN Is this factually correct, is this what happened that you went to Eric's shop and Eric told you that you must accompany him to a mine at Stilfontein? MR MALEFANE No that is not correct. ADV. BOSMAN Then why did you say this then? MR MALEFANE I was under pressure at that time. ADV. BOSMAN But why did you particularly want to implicate Eric then as being the originator of the idea to go to Stilfontein? I just don't understand it. Why , if you were under pressure and I accept you were probably under pressure because you were with the police, why did you think up this about Eric in particular and implicate him as the originator of the idea? MR MALEFANE I was trying to safeguard myself from the policeman's torture and I decided to tell a lie. ADV. BOSMAN But why Eric in particular, why did you decide on Eric? MR MALEFANE It was just instantaneous, I was being tortured. ADV. BOSMAN Right, then you said during your evidence - just bear with me for a moment - that there were people involved in the operation who were not members of the PAC and that these people were not supposed to know what the exercise was about. What did you tell them, these people who were not supposed to know? MR MALEFANE I'm not the one who informed them or recruited them, it's Chris who approached them because I approached Chris and he approached them. ADV. BOSMAN Didn't you have any discussions with them at all, didn't you tell them what was in it for them, whether they would share in the proceeds and how? MR MALEFANE Yes I told them about their role to play in there. ADV. BOSMAN What did you tell them? MR MALEFANE I told them that should we get the money we will share it. ADV. BOSMAN Did you discuss the basis on which it would be shared? MR MALEFANE Yes I did. ADV. BOSMAN How did you intend sharing it? MR MALEFANE Proportionally. CHAIRPERSON Equal shares? MR MALEFANE Yes equal shares. ADV. BOSMAN Would this not have to a large extent defeated the object of the exercise and that is to really put APLA in money? MR MALEFANE No. ADV. BOSMAN I don't want to take it too far but surely if half the money or more than half of the money would have gone to people who were not even APLA members, this would certainly have been to the prejudice of APLA if this exercise was intended? Seven eights, there was very little in the whole exercise for APLA if this was going to be the manner in which you would share. Do you agree? CHAIRPERSON I think what Advocate Bosman is saying, there were eight of you, if it was equal shares your share would go to APLA, that would be one eighth of the loot, seven eighths would go to other people who were not members of the movement. MR MALEFANE That is correct, sir. ADV. BOSMAN Did you sort of think this through at the time, think about it? MR MALEFANE Yes I did. I thought thoroughly about it. ADV. BOSMAN Didn't it worry you. MR MALEFANE No it did not worry me because I would give people an amount of R2 - R3000 whenever they wanted to leave the country and I'd already calculated out that the money will be sufficient, the money we were going to get there. ADV. BOSMAN How would have calculated that, did you know how much money was going to be in the security van? MR MALEFANE We went to the mines and enquired from the employees as to how do they earn and how many are they per day and this led me to realise that there would be sufficient money at that time. ADV. BOSMAN Oh I see so it was the payroll that you were going to get hold of, it was the payroll for the mine that was being transported? MR MALEFANE That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Yes, just sorry before I ask Advocate Motata, I see from the charge sheet on page 48 that the amount stolen was R7220,00 so if you were successful and got away with it, you would have got about R950? MR MALEFANE Yes I noticed that. CHAIRPERSON And isn't that small change? MR MALEFANE Yes of course it is small change. CHAIRPERSON Advocate Motata do you have any questions to ask? ADV. MOTATA Yes about two Chairperson, thank you. Malefane, at the welcome party when you met Mabena and he requested you to give him money and a vehicle, after the getting the money where were you supposed to meet him? MR MALEFANE He was supposed to meet me at my home. ADV. MOTATA Now you decided to repossess on the 15th July. When was he supposed to come to your home? MR MALEFANE I was going to notify him and ask him to come through. ADV. MOTATA When you met at Mothopeng's place did you know where he lived, that is Mabena? MR MALEFANE Yes he told me where he was staying. ADV. MOTATA From a question from a colleague of the panel here you said you had asked the mine employees how much they earned, that is per day and this Fidelity Guard van was to bring in the payroll, did I understand you correctly? MR MALEFANE That is correct, sir. ADV. MOTATA And in your evidence you said that, to ask that you went there about twice to reconnoitre the place, do you recall that? That is to Stilfontein mine. MR MALEFANE That is correct, sir. ADV. MOTATA Now in asking these people, how many people did you ask or how many employees were there at the Stilfontein mine? MR MALEFANE It was quite a number of people. ADV. MOTATA Please assist us because you mentioned here that prior to this incident you had assisted people, the youth in particular and you had given about R3000. Now for you to decide that you were going to repossess money brought in by the Fidelity Guards, you must have had a figure in mind because you had to share equally, that is one eighth per person, you get that? And now to repossess how much did you expect to repossess that would assist the PAC? MR MALEFANE I expected a lot of money, far more than the figure that's stated here. ADV. MOTATA Were you told that it's money to pay approximately how many people, a million, a thousand people and how much would a person as you had found out would have earned had the money reached timeously? MR MALEFANE They do not earn equal wages. ADV. MOTATA Yes that we do understand but you had an occasion to ask the people around, then you formulated the idea that you should repossess, would I be wrong in so assuming? Because want I want from you Mr Malefane, is for you to assist us, approximately how much was one person even if there were not earning equally, was one person earning at Stilfontein mine? MR MALEFANE Some were earning R500, R600 onwards. ADV. MOTATA Now you had a figure in mind, did you make elaborate arrangements by reconnaissance about this security van, the Fidelity Guard van? How much, how you were going to ambush and repossess the money they were carrying? MR MALEFANE That is correct, sir. ADV. MOTATA When was that done because you have only told us about your visitation to the mine on two occasions only, you haven't told us this far about the Fidelity Guard van. What did you do and when? MR MALEFANE Firstly, we went in the morning and we saw it and saw where it parks and secondly we saw where it parks again. On both occasions we saw the van and where it parks, that's how we reconnoitred the place as far as the van is concerned. ADV. MOTATA Was it before the visitation and the general enquiries from the mine workers or after you had done that? MR MALEFANE As soon as the van had left we went around to talk to the people, as soon as it had left we would go and enquire around from the people. ADV. MOTATA Were these mine workers paid weekly, fortnightly or monthly? MR MALEFANE Fortnightly. They just get paid daily but when we went there it was a fortnight. ADV. MOTATA When you did you not come to realise that some were paid on a daily basis? MR MALEFANE I asked around. ADV. MOTATA And when you spoke to the mine workers to determine the amount that would be brought, did you speak to people who were being paid fortnightly? MR MALEFANE The one person told me that he was going get paid today, the other one said the following day and the other one said he would be getting the money on the fortnight. ADV. MOTATA Now how did you determine that on the 15th July the number of people would be paid that would have been fortnightly, how did you determine the number? MR MALEFANE I noticed that when we went there on the 15th the people were getting paid so therefore during our visit we noticed that every fortnight these people get paid and the van arrives. ADV. MOTATA Assist me here, you say there was Mchunu, Mkhize, Williams, Ngubane, Nene. Then you say the rest of them they don't belong to any political organisation, when you say that are you referring to the names I've just mentioned? MR MALEFANE Yes I'm referring to Aaron and Eric Ntani. ADV. MOTATA In other words, the names you haven't mentioned here are the ones you said didn't belong to any organisation because you have mentioned five if you can have regard to page 9 of the papers? MR MALEFANE At that time I did not know that the ones I've mentioned here on this page are belonging to a political group or not. All seven, I was not aware of their political affiliation. ADV. MOTATA Mr Malefane, the incident of repossession was on the 15th July 1991, you completed your form, your application form on the 3rd October 1996, if you have regard to page 3 of the papers before you. Do you see that? MR MALEFANE Yes sir. ADV. MOTATA My question then is, when did you know then that the others, the seven, belonged to which organisation, liberation movement or did not belong to any? MR MALEFANE In prison Randera and Khampepe arrived and they were there to tell us about the Truth Commission and they handed us booklets and I handed them over to these people who I was in prison with and I told them that they must apply to the Truth Commission for amnesty, that is when I knew that they were not politically affiliated. INTERPRETER Can you hear me? ADV. MOTATA We're getting no translation. Please would you assist us, we're sorry about that Mr Malefane, could you answer to my question? MR MALEFANE Whilst we were in prison, Randera and Khampepe arrived and they were telling us, informing us about the Truth Commission and they handed us booklets and I took them and gave them to my co-prisoners who were involved in this operation and advised them they should apply for amnesty. That is when they told me that they are not politically affiliated to any organisation. ADV. MOTATA Did you subsequently inform them about your mission which they did not know when you assembled them for this repossession excursion? MR MALEFANE No I never told them. ADV. MOTATA Even after the whole thing you did not tell them? After the handing the booklet and inviting them to make applications you did not inform them that you had a mission other than what they thought? MR MALEFANE I never did sir. ADV. MOTATA Thank you Chairperson, I've got no further questions. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Advocate Motata. Mr Malefane you said that on that occasion that you spent about three years in Lesotho you underwent a number of crash courses. Could you give us a little bit more detail, what were these crash courses about and who gave them to you? MR MALEFANE I received crash courses in as far as the use of weapons was concerned and how to protect myself and what you should do when you see somebody having a bomb. CHAIRPERSON Were you ever an APLA cadre? MR MALEFANE No sir. CHAIRPERSON I see from your application form, Mr Malefane, page 1 you applied for amnesty for murder, attempted murder, that I understand, the robbery, the possession of an unlicensed firearm and ammunition. Now what firearm was that? MR MALEFANE That is AK47 and other revolvers. CHAIRPERSON So - we've got to know specifically what you're applying for, your applying for - are those the AK47's, I think you mentioned - sorry I've forgotten the numbers - you said that you had two AK47's, two revolvers and one pistol, that is the group that went to Stilfontein? MR MALEFANE Yes. CHAIRPERSON Now are you applying for amnesty in respect of unlawful possession of all those weapons? MR MALEFANE That is correct. CHAIRPERSON And I take it those weapons were loaded, there was ammunition. There must have been because you fired shots? MR MALEFANE Yes they had ammunition, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON So that's what you're applying for? MR MALEFANE That is correct, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Were you convicted in respect of all those weapons? MR MALEFANE That is correct, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Just one thing to clarify for me, you said that you spoke to Mr Mabena about getting money, he asked you for money and then you decided that you're now going to raise money for use for, in Transkei, for training in a task force. You then say that you went to Chris Langa who is an MK cadre, he's not a APLA or PAC man. Why would you approach somebody from MK for an APLA operation or a PAC operation, why not go to Mabena himself and say look, I've got an idea, we can hit the Stilfontein payroll, I need a unit to assist me and then arrange for a properly trained APLA unit? After he was, you said yourself, an APLA man and he must have been an APLA man of some substance because he was now training task forces. Why didn't you go back to him for the assistance, why go to somebody without - outside the movement? Because, if I could just add, because if you kept it within APLA ranks, you know if you've got a unit to assist you then the reward the APLA would have got, the benefit APLA would have got from the operation would have been a hundred percent because they would have all been APLA people involved. The way you did it, you were twelve and a half percent, one eighth? So one, why did you not approach APLA to assist you and two, wouldn't that have been more beneficial all round? MR MALEFANE That would help us if I would ask APLA to help us but I was not supposed to ask Mabena because he had his own job to do, I also had my own job so I decided to approach Chris Langa because he also asked me for some assistance. I used to assist him that is why I went to him for an assistance. CHAIRPERSON Were you charged and convicted of these offences? MR MALEFANE Yes. CHAIRPERSON And what term of imprisonment did you receive? MR MALEFANE I was given two death sentences and thirty two years imprisonment. CHAIRPERSON Yes thank you. Mr Mbandazayo, do you have any questions arising out of questions that have been put by the panel? MR MBANDAZAYO None Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mpshe. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MPSHE Yes Mr Chairperson, just two as a follow up. These weapons, the AK47 and the revolver, where did you get them from? MR MALEFANE They were delivered by David Nene. MR MPSHE David Nene. MR MALEFANE That is correct. MR MPSHE If I said to you that Eric Williams is a person who prepared and gave you the AK47's what would you say? MR MALEFANE I will disagree with you. MR MPSHE You disagree, right. Did everybody who was involved in this operation know that the money was going to be shared amongst yourselves? MR MALEFANE Yes they did, sir. MR MPSHE Alright. If I say that one of those persons in that group, in the operation, was informed that the money was going to be given to the organisation, what would you say? MR MALEFANE I don't know about that. MR MPSHE If I further say to you that one of the members was involved in the operation was told and he knew that the money was to be given to a certain person, one man was going to be given all the money, what would you say to that? MR MALEFANE It's the first time that I hear that from you, I know nothing about that, but there might be that possibility because Chris Langa is the only person who knew these people, it must have well be the person who told them. MR MPSHE Was Chris not involved the planning, discussions and all? MR MALEFANE No he was not involved. MR MPSHE Now you said Chris Langa also asked for assistance from you and you did assist him. With what did you assist him, Chris Langa? MR MALEFANE I leant him my car when he was going to Lesotho. MR MPSHE Is that all what you did for him? MR MALEFANE I also gave him some financial help. MR MPSHE Did you ever give him any assistance in any operation which he was to carry out? MR MALEFANE Yes I did. I gave him assistance when we went together to go and collect the guns. We were to deliver them in Soweto. MR MPSHE To ANC or to PAC? MR MALEFANE They were to be delivered at a certain house in Soweto. He just said to me I must accompany him so we went to collect those guns. I didn't know whether they were going to be used by PAC or ANC. We just went there to go and collect and deliver the guns. MR MPSHE Thank you Mr Chairman, that will be all. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MPSHE CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Malefane, that concludes your evidence. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON Mr Mbandazayo? MR MBANDAZAYO Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Chairperson, I've got only one witness but he is only going to testify as far as Mabena is concerned, not involving operation, but who was Mabena. CHAIRPERSON Yes, I'm not going to restrict you on who you can call and not. If you want to call a witness you can do so on whatever aspect, it's up to you Mr Mbandazayo. MR MBANDAZAYO Thank you Mr Chairperson. I call Shakespeare Buthelezi, just on the question of Mabena, Mr Chairperson. SHAKESPEARE THAMI BUTHELEZI (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Buthelezi, is it correct that you were a former cadre of APLA? MR BUTHELEZI Yes that is correct. MR MBANDAZAYO Am I correct to say that you are - you have just about a month and half been released from prison, have been just granted amnesty for activities of APLA? MR BUTHELEZI That is correct. MR MBANDAZAYO Mr Buthelezi, you have heard Mr Malefane testifying here before this Committee, telling the Committee about his meeting with Mabena at former, the late President of PAC's welcome party ...(indistinct). Can you tell the Committee what do you know about Mabena yourself, whether this person was a member of PAC or not or role, in capacity was he in PAC, if he was a member of PAC or APLA? MR BUTHELEZI Mabena was a member of APLA, he was coming from exile and he was a trained soldier, fully trained soldier. We were in the same unit in Tanzania. He was a commissar within the very same unit, that is how I know him. MR MBANDAZAYO Did you at any stage meet him inside the country? MR BUTHELEZI Yes that is correct, we met whilst I was still inside the country and outside the country. MR MBANDAZAYO Okay. My last question Mr Buthelezi, do you know anything about Mabena with regard to this incident at Stilfontein mine and Mr Malefane and what do you know if there is anything you know about it? MR BUTHELEZI Yes I do know Mabena, he was operating in the country but with regard to the Stilfontein incident, there is absolutely no light I can shed but what I know is that before he was killed or before he died in 1974 he told us about a certain person who was recruited ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Sorry, I think the date, he said 1974, 1994 yes. It came across as '74. MR BUTHELEZI During 1994. CHAIRPERSON Sorry to have interrupted you Mr Buthelezi, if you could just repeat that. You say before he was killed in 1994? MR BUTHELEZI He did intimate to me because whilst we were still in South Africa, we belonged to one unit and I was the commander of that unit and he was a logistics officer. He pointed out to me that there is a certain member of the party that they met at Zeph Mothopeng's welcome party and wanted some money and he heard that that member had already been arrested and he was sentenced to death so he asked us to go and hijack or he wanted some reinforcement to go and hijack those Africans when they were attending court but we never discussed that any further because he was shot at a later stage and we did not know him or we did not know that he was involved in the Stilfontein operation until such time that I met him when I was given a 64 year sentence during 1995 and proceeded to the Johannesburg prison. When the PAC leadership came to visit us, that's how we came to know him. He introduced himself to us saying he was Phillip Faizel Malefane and Mabena is also from Khatlehong and also asked me as to whether I knew Mabena. I said yes but he has since died. He further explained to me that they tried to rob some money in order to fund raise for Mabena to train other members of the PAC in the Transkei, that's when he got arrested and he was shot. That is as far as I know about him. MR MBANDAZAYO Will I be correct, Mr Buthelezi, by saying to you that he never told you that he gave an order, Mr Malefane, to go to Stilfontein, the only thing he told you was that - told you about a member of the party who has been arrested and you didn't know the circumstances? MR BUTHELEZI Yes that is correct. MR MBANDAZAYO That is all, Mr Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MBANDAZAYO CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Mbandazayo. Mr Mpshe, do you have any questions to ask the witness? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MPSHE Was Mr Mabena a commander of any unit? MR BUTHELEZI I was the commander of the unit. He was a logistics officer. Mabena came into the country first, that is during 1990. Could you please repeat your question? MR MPSHE Was Mabena a commander of any unit? MR BUTHELEZI Yes he was once a commander in another unit. MR MPSHE Which unit? MR BUTHELEZI I do not know the unit or how they called it. Maybe I just clarify this. When we came back into the country as exiles we do not trust each other and people were conducting their own operations under certain names but Letlape was the director of operations but each and every unit had to report to Letlape. MR MPSHE Yes, but you know he was a commander of a unit? MR BUTHELEZI Yes I do know that. MR MPSHE Now which unit was he a commander of? MR BUTHELEZI While we were still outside the country, he was the commander of our own unit and when we came back I became the commander of a certain or a specific unit. MR MPSHE This unit of which he was a commander and you took over, was it an offensive unit or a defensive unit or a repossessing unit? MR BUTHELEZI It was an offensive unit. MR MPSHE What was it's operations, it's activities? MR BUTHELEZI It was to kill policemen. MR MPSHE Would a defensive - I mean, sorry Mr Chairman, would an offensive unit carry out a repossession unit operation? MR BUTHELEZI Yes it can do that because it depended upon the commander of that unit. If there was a need for them to carry out such an operation, as a guerilla he could use his own discretion to issue out such a command or instruction. MR MPSHE In 1991, particularly July 1991, who was the commander of that offensive unit? Was it still Mabena or yourself, let me be direct with you? MR BUTHELEZI I think you do not understand me at some point, we lost each other. CHAIRPERSON I think so and I got a little bit lost as well, what Mr Buthelezi said was that Mr Mabena, when they were abroad was a commander of a unit of which he was a member, then they both came back to South Africa at different times and when he came back he was a member of a unit and Mr Mabena was a logistics officer. I don't know if it was the same unit that existed overseas that came here. Maybe you can ask on that but I think that's where the confusion has come in. And also whether Mr Mabena was in Mr Buthelezi's own unit as a logistics officer or in a different one. MR MPSHE Right, thank you Mr Chairman. Did you belong to a unit, let's go outside, when you're outside the country. Did you belong to a unit which was headed by Mr Mabena? We're outside the country now. MR BUTHELEZI Outside South Africa, the situation was like this. We had a platoon which represented plus minus 33 people. He was the commander of that specific unit. Then when we came back to South Africa, we trained other members, members of the task force. That is when he got to be a logistics officer and I became a commander of the very same unit. We were the only two people who were trained and the other ones were civilians. MR MPSHE So when you came back into the country you became the commander of the same unit which was commanded by Mabena outside, am I correct? CHAIRPERSON The unit abroad had thirty three members, he said here they only had two. When they were in Tanzania there were thirty three in the platoon who were trained. The one I understand, he can correct me if I'm wrong, then they came back and only two of those thirty three landed up in this unit, that is Mr Buthelezi, the commander and Mabena the logistics officer and they trained people. The other thirty one no doubt went elsewhere so it wasn't the same thirty three that came to Transkei. MR MPSHE Alright, we're in the country, inside the country, you are now the commander okay? How many members did you have in that unit in the country? MR BUTHELEZI We were six. MR MPSHE Good. Now in 1991, were you still a commander of that unit in the country? MR BUTHELEZI Yes that is correct. MR MPSHE And it is that unit which you commanded which would have been responsible for an operation of this nature, am I correct? As a commander? MR BUTHELEZI That is correct. MR MPSHE And Mabena was not in a position of giving you orders as a commander at that time, is that correct? MR BUTHELEZI That is correct but could I clarify a certain issue? Mabena had the discretion to issue an order, for instance if I was not present at the time and the unit had to do something or carry out an important operation, he could do that if he was not present. I do not want to confine myself to the fact that he could not. In this specific case he could have issued out an order and at the end of the day he could not be held responsible for having issued out this order because probably there wasn't anyone at that time to issue an order of that kind. I met Mabena in prison, I would like to clarify this to the Committee that our struggle, especially during the 1990's, escalated so much so that people never got a chance to be actively involved in politics or to be educated or be given a proper brief with regard to the struggle or the politics of the country. As a result, as Mr Mabena has already testified as a member of the PAC, he is recognised by the PAC and I would request him to be granted amnesty because he participated in the struggle of the country irrespective of the nature of the participation, but what he did, he did it as a hero who was concerned about the wellbeing of the entire African nation, that's why he decided to repossess from the oppressors. I think that's all I'm going to say for now. MR MPSHE If Mabena had given out an instruction in your absence he would report to you as a commander, not so? MR BUTHELEZI Yes he had to report to me but within the same breath, I was not very much available due to the fact that the police were hunting me down at that stage so I was not easily available or easily accessible to him to report to me. MR MPSHE My question was so simple, he would report to you as a commander, that's all? CHAIRPERSON Mr Mpshe, just on this, my understanding on my Malefane's evidence, was that Mr Mabena didn't give him any order or instruction, I mean they met at a party and he mentioned that they needed money to train a task force in a discussion and then the applicant said then thereafter, he took it upon himself, he decided himself to go and get money for Mabena, it wasn't that Mabena said okay you're a member of PAC, you are instructed to go and get money? MR MPSHE That is perfectly correct, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON So there's not a question of having to come back and inform his commander about an instruction that he issued in his absence because it wasn't an instruction. MR MPSHE That is perfectly correct Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR MPSHE Unless Mr Chair wants me to ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON So I don't know why we're going on about this instruction? MR MPSHE Unless Mr Chair wants me to clarify why I'm following this line? CHAIRPERSON Yes, no certainly if you can. MR MPSHE It is correct so, Mr Chairman, Mabena did not give him any instruction. The thrust of my questioning of this witness in this line is to show that there was no political coverage of this whole operation. The purpose of Malefane mentioning Mabena is to cloud the operation with the PAC operation so I'm removing all that by putting this question. But the Chair is saying is perfectly correct. Thank you Mr Chairman, that's all. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MPSHE CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Do you have any re-examination Mr Mbandazayo? MR MBANDAZAYO None Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Advocate Bosman, do you have any questions to ask the witness? ADV. BOSMAN Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Buthelezi, where were you operating at the time ...(inaudible) INTERPRETER The speaker's microphone is not on. ADV. BOSMAN Sorry. Where were you operating, which area were you operating at the time when you were commander and Mr Mabena was logistics officer? MR BUTHELEZI We were in Kathlehong. ADV. BOSMAN And what did Mr Mabena's duty entail as a logistics officer? MR BUTHELEZI ...(indistinct) ADV. BOSMAN I'm not getting any translation. CHAIRPERSON There is not translation coming through? INTERPRETER Sorry we were on 3. Can I get the witness to repeat the answer? CHAIRPERSON Mr Buthelezi, the interpretation hasn't come through could you just please repeat your answer? The question was what were Mr Mabena's duties? MR BUTHELEZI Mr Mabena's duties were to organise for the unit, for instance if we were short of ammunition had to organise. At times we were in need of money, he had to organise some funds for the unit. I think his specific duty was to organise for the unit. ADV. BOSMAN So how do we make the Transkei task force connection from this, can you help us? MR BUTHELEZI I do not know, I think if he did not die he would have answered that himself. ADV. BOSMAN Did he ever go to the Transkei while he was logistics officer? MR BUTHELEZI As I've already explained, at that time I was on the run, I lost touch with whatever was happening within the unit. ADV. BOSMAN But do you know of any time that he went to the Transkei, did he report it to you? MR BUTHELEZI No I've absolutely no idea about him going to the Transkei because when we parted we did not part under normal circumstances, I was on the run until such time that I heard about his death and I attended his funeral. ADV. BOSMAN Thank you. Thank you Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Advocate Motata, do you have any questions to ask the witness? ADV. MOTATA I've got none, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Mbandazayo, do you have any questions arising? MR MBANDAZAYO None Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mpshe? MR MPSHE No questions Mr Chairperson, thank you. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Buthelezi, that concludes your testimony, you may stand down. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) MR MBANDAZAYO Just the evidence for the applicant, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Mbandazayo. Mr Mpshe? MR MPSHE Thank you Mr Chairperson, I'm not leading any evidence of any person effected in the form of a victim but in all fairness to the applicant Mr Chairperson, I want the Committee's guidance here. I made certain accessions to the applicant under cross-examination concerning the guns, where the guns were found, who made available the guns and I said to him it was - he said it was David Nene and I said if somebody say it was somebody else what would you say, he said it would be not true. I made another accession in all fairness to him about the money or members knowing that the money was going to be given to a particular person and he also, not in so many words, disputed that. I do have witnesses to this effect if the Committee would like to hear them I can call them if the Committee accepts the accessions that I've made I can leave it at that and not call any witness, but they are available because I would be calling them for only for this purpose which may not be in the liking of the Committee. CHAIRPERSON Do you have anything to say on that Mr Mbandazayo? MR MBANDAZAYO Thank you Mr Chairperson. I think Mr Chairperson the purpose of this exercise of coming here is to hear the truth of everything so I have no objection definitely, if the Committee wants that particular person to give evidence, I have no problem with that. All of us who are searching for the truth and know what actually what actually happened. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Mbandazayo. MR MBANDAZAYO And assess whatever evidence the Committee has, if it has an opportunity to get another person, definitely we should be entitled to that. CHAIRPERSON Having consulted with my learned panellists and having heard Mr Mbandazayo and yourself, if you wish to call a witness you may do so Mr Mpshe. MR MPSHE Thank you Mr Chairman, I'm indebted to the Committee. Mr Chairman then I call Mr Eric Williams. CHAIRPERSON Mr Williams? MR MPSHE Mr Chairperson I was asking him what language he uses he says he's going to try his best, he is Portuguese speaking but he will try Zulu. CHAIRPERSON Mr Williams, if you have any difficulty with the language just let me know and we can try to sort it out as we go along? You can of course speak any language you wish but I doubt whether there's any Portuguese interpreter to help here. You'll be speaking in Zulu? ERIC WILLIAMS (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR MPSHE Mr Williams, you are currently servicing a term of imprisonment? MR WILLIAMS Yes that is correct. MR MPSHE How long are you in jail? MR WILLIAMS Seven years six months. MR MPSHE Are you serving the sentence for this operation, the robbery at Stilfontein? MR WILLIAMS That is correct. MR MPSHE You are one of those who carried out this operation? MR WILLIAMS No I was not present. MR MPSHE You were sitting in the hearing when Mr Malefane was testifying and you heard his evidence, am I correct? MR WILLIAMS Yes. MR MPSHE Good. Can you tell us as to how were the AK47's that were used in the act obtained and where did they come from? MR WILLIAMS They were from home. MR MPSHE Home where? MR WILLIAMS From Mozambique. MR MPSHE Who brought them from Mozambique? MR WILLIAMS It's Mjaban, you will not know him because he is not present at this juncture. CHAIRPERSON Sorry to interrupt. Mr Williams, when you say from home in Mozambique, is Mozambique your home or is your home in Mozamibique. MR WILLIAMS Yes that is correct. MR MPSHE Thank you Mr Chairman. Who gave them over to the group that carried out the operation? MR WILLIAMS I do not know the people here, I only know the one I was working with, that is Bongi Nkosi Nkuno. I do not know the rest, I only met them when we got arrested. MR MPSHE Who provided the AK47's, is it yourself, is it Mr Nkuno or somebody else? MR WILLIAMS It's Mjaban, he's presently in Portugal. He's the one who came here and we met, he spoke about the AK47 because there were a lot of comrades who came to my workplace who were like to be involved in this armed robbery. MR MPSHE Did Mjaban give the AK47's to you? MR WILLIAMS Yes that is correct. MR MPSHE And what did you do with those AK47's? MR WILLIAMS I sold them. MR MPSHE To who? MR WILLIAMS I sold them to Sipiwe who was coming from Rustenburg. MR MPSHE Did you sell any to David Nene? MR WILLIAMS No I did not, I did not know him at that stage. MR MPSHE I see. CHAIRPERSON Sorry to interrupt, you've only mentioned AK47's, did you have anything to do with other firearms that were used that we've heard from Mr Malefane, that were used in the operation namely two revolvers and one pistol? MR WILLIAMS No I did not, I only had two AK47's. MR MPSHE And according to your knowledge the two AK47's you had are they the ones that they used in this operation? MR WILLIAMS Yes that is correct. MR MPSHE That will be all Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON And the other point about the money? MR MPSHE No, the other point of the money is not this witness, it's another one Mr Chairman, thank you Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MPSHE CHAIRPERSON Okay, thank you Mr Mpshe. Mr Mbandazayo, do you have any questions to ask the witness? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO Yes Mr Chairperson. Who did you give this AK47 for this operation at Stilfontein? MR WILLIAMS I gave them to Sipiwe who was from Rustenburg. He bought them from me. CHAIRPERSON Sorry Mr Mbandazayo, do you know what Sipiwe's name is, the other name? MR WILLIAMS I've forgotten his surname, I only know him as Sipiwe and the fact that he was from Rustenburg. MR MBANDAZAYO You indicated - you said in your evidence in chief that you were not involved in this operation. How did you know that those Ak47's you sold to Sipiwe were used in this operation? MR WILLIAMS Sipiwe told me. MR MBANDAZAYO You were told by Sipiwe? MR WILLIAMS That is correct. MR MBANDAZAYO Okay. Now I understand that you are serving in prison for this operation, am I correct? MR WILLIAMS That is correct. MR MBANDAZAYO And you were convicted of your participation in this operation, am I correct? MR WILLIAMS That is correct. MR MBANDAZAYO Now can you tell the Committee what was the reason of your conviction for participating in this operation yet your only role you played was only to supply ....(intervention) MR WILLIAMS I've got no idea, that's what I want to know. Even now I haven't yet got an answer as to why I was convicted. MR MBANDAZAYO Now, Mr Chairperson on the bundle page 36 of the bundle, now I will read a passage from your confession. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mbandazayo are you in a position to effect your own translation and read it in English or would you prefer Advocate Bosman to read it into the record? MR MBANDAZAYO I request that because maybe my interpretation won't be that perfect so I understand Afrikaans but I'll ask Advocate Bosman to help with this. CHAIRPERSON If you could just identify the passage you want? MR MBANDAZAYO Mr Chairperson, I'll just start with the sentence number 1 and number 2. INTERPRETER Is the panel aware that there are Afrikaans interpreters available? CHAIRPERSON Because the last time I asked they - are they available? INTERPRETER Yes. CHAIRPERSON Oh sorry, well they're available, if you could just do it, I didn't know because last time I asked they said I should do it in English. Thank you, no that's fine, I didn't know that. MR MBANDAZAYO Thank you Mr Chairperson. "We were arrested at Stilfontein. It was myself, Bongani, Mkhize, Ngubane, Mchunu, David, Aaron and Phillip. All the people were armed with weapons except for myself, Phillip and Aaron. Phillip said that I and Aaron had to stay at the background where we would rob the Fidelity Guards because we did not know the work all that well and we waited at the car. Phillip said that when we finished with the work we had to drive behind them back to Johannesburg. We then waited at the car. Phillip went ahead in the bakkie, we waited long for them but we did not see them. Aaron and myself went back to Johannesburg and a Hartebeesfontein the bakkie passed us at a high speed and we did not see them again. Close to Klerksdorp the bakkie was stopped by the police and we did not see them again." MR MBANDAZAYO Mr Williams, why did you tell whoever was taking your confession, I think it was the police, about your involvement, that you were waiting in the car, if I may put it, when this operation took place and yet you are saying here that you were never here? MR WILLIAMS Whatever is written in here was written and I was assaulted and told to sign. I was threatened with death in case I did not sign. I signed but the contents of this statement are totally unknown to me. I wanted an interpreter, a portuguese interpreter but I could not get one so they wrote the statement in Afrikaans and thereafter made me sign it. MR MBANDAZAYO Are you saying to this Committee that what is written here was just a figmentation of the police as to what actually happened there and they wrote it down and let you sign? MR WILLIAMS I never understood any part of that statement, this policeman had a paper and handed the paper over to me, they were speaking in a foreign language, they asked me whether I knew some guys, I denied it and I said I knew the other one with whom I was working but at a later stage they wrote the statements themselves and made me sign it. I did not understand a word of it. MR MBANDAZAYO Chairperson, I don't think I'll have further questions though I would pursue this regarding the questions which the witness was asked before he made the statement, but I won't take it any further, thank you Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MBANDAZAYO CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Mbandazayo. Mr Mpshe do you have any re-examination? RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MPSHE Mr Chairperson, with your permission, just one point that I forgot to take up with him? CHAIRPERSON Yes certainly then I'll give Mr Mbandazayo another opportunity to ask questions if he requires it. MR MPSHE Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Williams, do you remember when I spoke to you and I consulted with you this morning when we were standing behind the interpretation boxes? MR WILLIAMS Yes I do. MR MPSHE Good. You remember I asked you what was to be done with the money had the operation succeeded, do you remember the question? MR WILLIAMS Yes I do. MR MPSHE And you remember you said to me the money was going to be given to the organisation? MR WILLIAMS Yes that is what I was told by Sipiwe. MR MPSHE Do you remember I suggested to you in the presence of David Nene that if you operate as a group, if you carry out an operation and you get money, normally you share the money, remember me saying that? MR WILLIAMS Yes I do remember. MR MPSHE And you disputed it, you said it was not to be shared but to be used for the organisation? MR WILLIAMS I said to you I was told that the money was to be used by the organisation not that was my own personal knowledge, that was what was passed on to me. MR MPSHE Right. You remember in the presence of David Nene again when I asked the same question, David Nene said to me in answer that the money was to be given to a particular person? MR WILLIAMS I do remember. MR MPSHE Thank you Mr Chairman, that's all. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MPSHE CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Mbandazayo? MR MBANDAZAYO Mr Chairperson, I have no questions. CHAIRPERSON Advocate Bosman, do you have any questions of this witness? ADV. BOSMAN Thank you Chairperson. Mr Williams, for what purpose did you obtain these guns, was it simply to sell so that you could make money out of it or was it for a particular organisation? MR WILLIAMS Sipiwe was involved with politics, he approached me because he knew that I was from Mozambique and he requested me specifically as to whether I knew anyone who was dealing in guns, that's when I went to Mjaban and I told Mjaban that there were people who were in need of guns and Mjaban brought them and they were sold. ADV. BOSMAN Did you know for which organisation Sipiwe was working? MR WILLIAMS He was in the PAC. ADV. BOSMAN Thank you Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Advocate Motata? ADV. MOTATA Thank you Chairperson, just probably two. Was Sipiwe, Mr Williams, was Sipiwe involved in that Stilfontein operation, do you know, do you possess special knowledge of that? MR WILLIAMS No, he came to me to talk about guns as to whether he participated or not I have no idea. ADV. MOTATA But I think when you were asked you said Sipiwe told you again that these guns were used in that operation at Stilfontein. I think that was your testimony, would I be correct? MR WILLIAMS Yes that is what he told me, I did not ask him as to whether he went there or he did not. He could have said it that the other people went so he came and told me that but as to whether he went or not I'm not sure. ADV. MOTATA Did he tell you that to whom he gave these guns after getting them from you, after being handed over to you by Mjaban? MR WILLIAMS No he never told me but I knew these guns were designated to the PAC or for the PAC. ADV. MOTATA Would I be correct Mr Williams that other than Portuguese, you speak Shangaan as well, would I be correct? MR WILLIAMS Yes I am able to speak Shangaan but the Mozambique Shangaan is not the same as the local Shangaan. I'm not a Shangaan speaking person I'm a Tjope, I speak a little bit of Shangaan but it's not the same as the local Shangaan that's spoken here in Soweto. ADV. MOTATA You would find that Tjope is a mixture of Shangaan and Sepedi, am I correct and a little bit of Siswati, would I be correct in saying so? MR WILLIAMS That is not correct. ADV. MOTATA When you say Tjope, what is the mixture there when you say Shangaan with Tjope there what are you actually referring to? MR WILLIAMS These are totally different languages when you're saying ...(indistinct) INTERPRETER Unfortunately we do not understand whatever the witness is saying because he is making reference to the Tjope language of which we cannot interpret. ADV. MOTATA Let's make it short, do you understand Shangaan? MR WILLIAMS I do. ADV. MOTATA: If you turn to page 34 of the papers there. MR WILLIAMS 34? ADV. MOTATA Yes. We would require our Afrikaans interpreter in the box. Just further down it says "The statement was taken by Sergeant Ramabula of the South African Police at my private office and in this office it was myself, the person making the statement, Makumu the interpreter and nobody else." And if you go further up the question is: "To which ethnic group do you belong" and you answered and said: "I am Shangaan" Do you see that? MR WILLIAMS Yes I do. ADV. MOTATA And you turn to page 37 now. You'll see that you signed because this was now typed and Makumu also typed, that is the interpreter, do you see that? MR WILLIAMS Yes I do. ADV. MOTATA Did you tell them that you were Shangaan? MR WILLIAMS Yes I did. ADV. MOTATA And why you come here and say they didn't want to give you a Portuguese interpreter, why didn't you say no, I did say I can speak Shangaan? MR WILLIAMS It's because all the people from Mozambique are being referred to as Shangaans that is why they said I must speak Shangaan and I forced issues to speak Shangaan and we did not understand it each other. That's when I realised that Shangaan that is used here and from Mozambique is not the same. ADV. MOTATA Was it the first time that you realised when you were making the statement that the Shangaans are different? MR WILLIAMS I do not know Shangaan, that's not my mother tongue, I do hear people when they speak Shangaan, it's just like Zulu. I try my level best to communicate or speak in Zulu but I'm not perfect and I cannot express myself perfectly in those languages. ADV. MOTATA But the person who signed Makumu, says he translated from Afrikaans to Shangaan? That's what the papers say, it's not me. I just want clarification from you? MR WILLIAMS Makamu is the person who arrested me, he can sugar coat all this because it should sound to you because he is the one who arrested me. ADV. MOTATA Was he present when you were interviewed? MR WILLIAMS Yes he was. ADV. MOTATA Thank you Chairperson, I've got no further questions. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Just very briefly, Mr Williams, you heard - you were sitting in the hall today when the applicant testified and the applicant in his testimony clearly said that you were involved in the operation at Stilfontein and also prior to Stilfontein in the planning. Do you dispute all the evidence of the applicant insofar as it relates to yourself? MR WILLIAMS He's telling a blue lie, I was never involved because I only met him on the day that we were arrested or when we were in prison. CHAIRPERSON Yes thank you. Mr Mpshe do you have any questions arising? MR MPSHE No questions Mr Chairman, thank you. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mbandazayo, do you have any questions arising? MR MBANDAZAYO None Mr Chairperson, I was going to request you to allow me to ask the question you have just asked. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Williams, that concludes your evidence, you may stand down. WITNESS EXCUSED MR MPSHE Mr Chairperson, Members of the Committee, in retrospect I think this witness has covered both points that I had put, I don't call the other witness Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Mpshe, does that conclude the leading of evidence in this application? MR MPSHE That is correct Mr Chairman thank you. CHAIRPERSON I see that it's now 1 o'clock, would you gentlemen be in a position to address the panel after lunch? MR MBANDAZAYO Yes Mr Chairperson, I'll be ready. CHAIRPERSON Yes thank you, we'll then just take the lunch adjournment and when we resume after lunch it will be to receive submissions from Mr Mbandazayo and Mr Mpshe. Thank you. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION CHAIRPERSON Mr Mbandazayo, are you ready to make submissions? MR MBANDAZAYO IN ARGUMENT Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Chairperson, my submission now briefly as follows, Mr Chairperson. Mr Chairperson the evidence has been led before the Committee and it's my submission that the evidence led covered all the aspects with regard to the applicant's case unless the Committee would like me to address on any other specific point. ADV. MOTATA Mr Mbandazayo, in regard to the question of the loot that the main aim was to assist the task force which was in the Transkei and now you come and say take any other from the street and say I will share equally, would we say that money which was taken was going to be of assistance to the task force in the Transkei? MR MBANDAZAYO Thank you Mr Chairperson, through you Mr Chairperson and Honourable Members. Mr Chairperson, let me be the first one to concede that I've done many applications of PAC and APLA and other matters, it's one unique one. But of course when we do these matters we always come up with something new. Mr Chairperson as I indicated, also the applicant indicated that these members, these people who were involved were not members of the PAC. Though, Mr Chairperson, you asked yourself through your Advocate Motata, you asked specifically how much was expected but it did not come up how much they expected but they ended up getting R7000. But he indicated that he felt that the share he was going to get was going to be enough but we're not sure what enough means because we don't know how much, how they calculated it and how did they arrive that they expect so much amount and during the sharing of the amount, so he will get so much. What I'm trying to say Mr Chairperson is that though itself is unique and unusual as I indicated I'm first to concede, definitely the amount which was going to be handed over to APLA, if it was going to be handed over, was going to be negligible, taking into account the amount which was found after the whole mission aborted, almost R900 as the Honourable Mr Chairperson calculated. Mr Chairperson, I don't want to elaborate but definitely I'm in a tight corner when it comes to ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON So what about this aspect, if you could just address us, if you take a look at it just objectively, you've got a group of eight people who embark on an expedition to hold up a van conveying monies, right? Seven of those members are of no political affiliation, one happens to be a ...(inaudible), one could look at that as a gang of eight with no real political motivation because seven of them haven't got any political affiliation. Now if one of them like the applicant happens to be a PAC, after the event comes the Amnesty Act, the Act 34 of 1995. Very convenient to say well I was doing this for the party. If one member happened to be AWB or an MK cadre, he could also come and say well I was doing it for the organisation because objectively, when one looks at it, it's just a gang of eight people. When the applicant's tried, well from the information we've got, it was never brought up that any political motive at all, it comes for the first time in this application and then that raises the question which I asked him, you know why if it's for the APLA or PAC, why go to somebody in a different organisation at the time, you know, when you can get all the money instead of one eighth? MR MBANDAZAYO Mr Chairperson, I don't know whether you're asking me or want me to comment. Mr Chairperson, looking at it, looking at it the way you put it and the way also myself I see it, definitely one would concede that definitely any other person who looked at it objectively will find it difficult to understand when you take into account the number of people who were almost seven if we accept his evidence as it is, that seven people were not affiliated to any and at the same time what was being done was done on behalf of the organisation. One if he looks at it objectively definitely Mr Chairperson, one would have to consider that point, it becomes very difficult. ADV. MOTATA Because if you take it a step further, that firstly at least assistance of a member of the ANC and we know the policy of the ANC didn't cover that and if there was a request, let's accept there was a request from Mabena, he had ample opportunity to look for his fellow PAC members and say "Hey, as you know our organisation is suffering and we want to train a task team in the Transkei to stabilise the councillors there, that would achieve our objective and Mabena wants that kind of money". Wouldn't that be looking at it objectively that the first thing he would go to the people who are of your home? MR MBANDAZAYO Through you Mr Chairperson. Mr Chairperson, that's why I said I concede that definitely I tried to put it, I thought that I was covering almost everything when I said that everything has been covered in the evidence. In a way I was trying to save the Committee, if it was in a court I'd leave it in the hands of the Honourable Members of the Committee. NO FURTHER ARGUMENT BY MR MBANDAZAYO CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Mbandazayo. Mr Mpshe? MR MPSHE IN ARGUMENT Thank you Mr Chair and Members of the Committee. Mr Chairman, what I was going to state was what has already been envisaged by Mr Mbandazayo. I have no submission to make and to leave all to the discretion of the Committee, unless the Committee would like me to highlight any other aspect raised? NO FURTHER ARGUMENT BY MR MPSHE CHAIRPERSON Thank you. I take it there's no reply to that? MR MBANDAZAYO Nothing, none Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON We could have had this argument before lunch. Yes thank you, we'll reserve judgment, we'll have to discuss the matter with ourselves and we'll hand down a written judgment at a later stage. Thank you very much. Victims? MR MPSHE Thank you, Mr Chairperson. The victims are as follows, Mr Chairman. The first one is the wife to the policeman who was killed - not policeman, Fidelity Guard person who was killed. The wife is Mrs Johanna Coetzee of 59 Wessels Street, Meiringspark in Klerksdorp. Then Mr Edward van Reeswyk, he's one of the Fidelity Guards who was shot but he is still alive. Edward van Reeswyk R-e-e-s-w-y-k care of Fidelity Guards, Vanderbijlpark, he is still employed there. Fidelity Guards, Vanderbijlpark. This is the gentleman I spoke to this morning. And the other one Mr Chairman, unfortunately he was shot there but he has since died not because of the incident but because of some other incident. CHAIRPERSON Then his next of kin won't quality then, he died of causes other than you know the injuries inflicted in the operation. MR MPSHE That is correct, Mr Chairman. That will be all Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR MPSHE And that rounds up the work for the day. CHAIRPERSON Okay then tomorrow? MR MPSHE Mr Chairman, for tomorrow it will be incident number 5 - it is Zola Mabala, Khotle and Mafanya. These are the matters coming up tomorrow. There are two incidents but separate operatives. CHAIRPERSON Yes. One's got three applicants, one's got two. MR MPSHE One has got two. CHAIRPERSON But the two are in both. MR MPSHE In both bundles and both incidents will be heard tomorrow. That is the only matter. CHAIRPERSON Yes until what time should adjourn tomorrow? MR MPSHE Mr Chairman, it will do no harm if we adjourn till 10 again tomorrow. CHAIRPERSON 10 o'clock. MR MPSHE We shall finish this one as well. Thank Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Mbandazayo, thank you. That brings this to the end of this hearing. The decision will be handed down later. We will be sitting again tomorrow at this venue in which two further applications will be heard and we will be commencing at 10 o'clock tomorrow morning in this hall so we'll now adjourn till 10 o'clock tomorrow morning. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS