amntrans AMNESTY HEARING 1998-11-09 DURBAN 1 I D BOSCH DEATH OF SIPHO BHILA https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=52958&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1998/98110919_dbn_981109dbn.htm MR ROUSSOUW Thank you, Mr Chairman. The next applicant is Mr Bosch. I ask that the witness be sworn in. I D BOSCH (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR ROUSSOUW Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, you will find the application of Mr Bosch from page 1 to 21 in bundle 1 of Bhila. Mr Bosch, have you got that application in front of you? MR BOSCH I have it. MR ROUSSOUW Do you confirm the contents of your statement on page 1? MR BOSCH That's correct. MR ROUSSOUW Regarding your career in the South African Police, can you confirm that in 1977 you joined the South African Police at the uniform branch in Pretoria? MR BOSCH That is correct. MR ROUSSOUW And thereafter in 1979 you were transferred to the Trade Union desk of the Security Branch? MR BOSCH That's correct. MR ROUSSOUW And in the early '80's, in 1982 you were transferred to the Intelligence Unit in Johannesburg? MR BOSCH That is correct. MR ROUSSOUW And then in 1983 you returned to the Intelligence Unit at headquarters in Pretoria, is that correct? MR BOSCH Correct. MR ROUSSOUW And in 1985 you went to Vlakplaas. MR BOSCH That's correct, Chairperson. MR ROUSSOUW You left Vlakplaas for the Directorate of Covert Collections and you worked there until 1993, is that correct? MR BOSCH That's correct, Mr Chairperson. MR ROUSSOUW Mr Bosch you apply for amnesty and the affidavit which you find on page and which you signed on page 7 was a prescribed form which you completed? MR BOSCH That is correct. MR ROUSSOUW And on page 2 you refer to the incidents for which you apply for and the statement you made to the Attorney-General, is that correct? MR BOSCH That's correct, Mr Chairperson. MR ROUSSOUW And this was supplemented with regard to the specific incidents and the extract from that supplementary statement you would find on page 11 to page 21. That deals specifically with the Bhila incident, is that correct? MR BOSCH That's correct, Mr Chairperson. MR ROUSSOUW And just to get clarity, please have regard to page 5 of the bundle where you refer to the question as to whether you gained anything financially or otherwise, in this incident, the Bhila incident, did you gain financially in any way? MR BOSCH No, Chairperson. MR ROUSSOUW You did not receive a cash bonus in connection with this incident? MR BOSCH No, Mr Chairperson. MR ROUSSOUW Mr Bosch, could I take you to page 11 or excuse me, page 13. You apply for amnesty and more specifically as an accomplice to murder ...(no English translation) for the death of an ANC member at the Natal South Coast during 1986 or 1987, is that correct? MR BOSCH That is correct, Mr Chairperson. MR ROUSSOUW It would seem that it is the incident of Bhila? MR BOSCH That is correct, Mr Chairperson. MR ROUSSOUW At the stage when you completed this affidavit you did not have any knowledge of the identity of the deceased? ...(transcriber's own translation) MR BOSCH No, Chairperson. MR ROUSSOUW You are also not sure of the date of the murder? MR BOSCH No, Mr Chairperson. MR ROUSSOUW Mr Bosch, can you just read on page 14 what your knowledge concerning this incident is? ADV PRIOR Sorry, Mr Chairman, Mr Roussouw is going a little fast, the interpreters or the translators have just indicated if he could slow down please. MR ROUSSOUW I'm sorry, Mr Chairman. MR BOSCH "During the period '86/'87 myself with Frank McCater and one, Rosslee as well as members of Vlakplaas deployed. During this time we were called in by Colonel Andy Taylor of the Durban Security Branch to go on a certain day to a white neighbourhood in the south of Durban." MR ROUSSOUW Mr Bosch, can I interrupt you there? This request to go to this specific neighbourhood, was that given to you directly by Colonel Taylor or were you informed of it? MR BOSCH I was informed about it, Mr Chairperson. MR ROUSSOUW You heard the evidence here that a meeting took place or a gathering between Colonel Taylor, Mr McCarter and Mr Rosslee, you weren't involved in such a meeting? MR BOSCH No, Mr Chairperson. MR ROUSSOUW Please continue. MR BOSCH "None of us were informed at that stage what our instruction would be. Along with Frank McCarter and Rosslee I drove in a Ford Sierra behind Lawrie Wasserman of the Security Branch, Durban to this suburb. It was early in the morning when we arrived at this place. There was a municipal park where there was a red brick building." MR ROUSSOUW Mr Bosch, you heard the evidence that it was a Railway Police shooting range, did you know at that stage that it was a shooting range? ...(transcriber's own translation) MR BOSCH No, Mr Chairperson, I did not know what place that was. MR ROUSSOUW Mr Bosch, while you were present in Durban, did you know the area? MR BOSCH Not at all Chairperson. MR ROUSSOUW How many times did you yourself work in Durban as part of a Vlakplaas contingency? MR BOSCH There might have been incident before this incident or after the incident but I usually worked in Eastern Transvaal. ...(transcriber's own translation) MR ROUSSOUW Proceed. MR BOSCH "At that stage members of the Durban Security Branch, except for Lawrie Wasserman was there. Except for Lawrie Wasserman there were also two members of the Durban Security Branch which were known to me as Spyker and one, Michael. I could not recall if the detainee was already there in the park when we arrived there or whether he was brought by the black members of Durban Security Branch later but a black man who was handcuffed was present there during the course of the day." MR ROUSSOUW Mr Bosch, you also heard the evidence that this particular person was handed over or was intercepted after he was taken from a certain place by Askaris, were you present, can you remember it? MR BOSCH Mr Chairperson, I could have been present but I cannot remember it at all. "The person was clearly a detainee and sat and waited with us the whole day in the park. I waited there the whole day without me being informed as to what the purpose of our presence there was. When it started getting dark the detainee was loaded into a mini-bus and I went with Michael, Spyker as well as a black member of Vlakplaas whom I think was Sergeant Aubrey Mgade, Frank Mc Carter, Rosslee as well as Wasserman. A member of Durban Security Branch drove the vehicle and we left the park. I remember that we drop up a steep incline for a long time. I guess we drove about an hour or an hour and a half and later we arrived in an out-of-town rural are where there were huts. We got a flat tyre which necessitated us to stop and put the spare wheel on. After this we drove further and after a while we stopped again. The detainee was then taken out of the mini-bus and we started walking away from the vehicle." ...(transcriber's own translation) MR ROUSSOUW Mr Bosch, at any stage while you were driving in this bus, did you converse, did anybody tell you where you were on your way to? MR BOSCH No, Mr Chairman, we did not talk in the bus, it was very quiet. MR ROUSSOUW "At this stage I didn't know what the planning was but I suspected that the prisoner might be killed. We walked a while and I noticed that were going towards the precipice in the cliff. It was very dark at that stage and down below I could see the lights of certain residential houses. We came to a standstill at the precipice and Michael and Spyker took a bag and placed it over the prisoner's head and they also removed his handcuffs. At that stage I realised that the prisoner was going to be shot. Frank McCarter and Rosslee shot the prisoner through the head afterwards. Both of them used a .25 Baby Browning pistol. Afterwards the prisoner's body was thrown off the precipice by Michael and Spyker." MR ROUSSOUW Mr Bosch, you heard the evidence and the questions which were asked regarding these weapons. At that stage were you issued with a similar weapon? MR BOSCH Chairperson, I only had my official police weapon with me, I didn't have a Baby Browning with me. "Afterwards we returned to Durban. Frank McCarter on their way back to Durban told me that the prisoner who was shot was an ANC terrorist who was responsible for a bomb explosion at the business centre at the Natal South Coast during a Xmas holiday. I cannot remember the relevant place where the bomb planting took place, Shelley Beach or Amanzimtoti. McCarter informed me that the bomb explosion killed members of the public and injured them severely. I was also informed that the prisoner was arrested after this explosion but that there was no proper criminal case built up against him because of the fact that the evidence was not sufficient. The information which was in the possession of the Durban Security Branch was that the prisoner was definitely responsible for the bomb explosion. As such and with this conviction was the instruction of Durban Security Branch was that the prisoner after he was acquitted should be arrested by the black members of the Security Branch and that he must be eliminated. I do not know who the deceased person was but I was aware at the municipal park - but whilst we were waiting at the municipal park I was aware of the fact that he was an ANC member because I was told by one of the other members of the Security Branch that that's the person who was in fact an ANC terrorist. I tried to find out what the reason was for his detention and what we were supposed to do but I was only told that he was an ANC terrorist." MR ROUSSOUW Mr Bosch, when you completed your amnesty application you did not know what the identity of the deceased was, and on page 17 of the bundle you refer to the fact that know a docket was opened and that might have contained further information, is that correct, do you confirm that? MR BOSCH Yes, I confirm that, Chairperson. MR ROUSSOUW Mr Bosch, on page 17 could you please continue and tell the Committee what your political objective was, the one you wanted to attain with your actions? MR BOSCH "The political objective with the elimination of this person was in order to eliminate an ANC member who was apparently responsible for the planting of a bomb which killed and injured members of the public. Because this person could not be prosecuted criminally it was necessary for us to take him out of, to stop the threat that he held for the general public and the present government and to get it out of the way. The elimination of this person was also part of the Security Branch's struggle against the guerilla warfare which was conducted by the ANC/SACP." MR ROUSSOUW Mr Bosch, as far as your personal knowledge is concerned before and during this operation, would you also submit this to the Committee please, on page 18. "Even though I was not completely aware of the situation surrounding his arrest, when he was shot I was well aware of the fact that he was a trained ANC member. The person was detained on instruction of the Durban Security Branch and I believed there were sufficient reasons for the Durban Security Branch to arrest this trained ANC member and to detain him. Seeing against the background of the Security Branch's battle against the ANC's revolutionary onslaught against the then dispensation, it was not strange to me to detain a person under the instruction of a senior officer of the Security Branch. Colonel Andy Taylor was also present during this detention of the deceased in the park in the suburb in the south of Durban. After McCarter informed me what the situations were and why the person had to be eliminated, I believed that it was necessary that he had to be eliminated because he was responsible for the planting of a bomb which killed and injured innocent members of the public." MR ROUSSOUW Mr Bosch, you've already testified that you gained no financial, you didn't get any financial gain because of your actions, is that correct? MR BOSCH Yes, that is correct. MR ROUSSOUW And you also mention that the operation was executed and the people who were there and who took responsibility for all of this was McCarter and Taylor, is that correct? MR BOSCH That is correct. MR ROUSSOUW Mr Bosch, can I just then take you to page 20 of the statement. Do you confirm that that is your handwriting, or your signature rather? MR BOSCH That is correct, Chairperson. MR ROUSSOUW And you also ask the Committee to take notice that because of the long time which has passed you do have certain problems to recollect some of the specifics concerning this incident? MR BOSCH That is correct. MR ROUSSOUW You also mention that since the incident you've deliberately tried to forget about it and to ...(end of tape) ...(inaudible) Mr McCater, that he would have been the person that would have explained to you the purpose of this operation. If you think back, can you remember if he actually did that and if so, when? MR BOSCH Chairman, I want to try to remember but I can't, it could have been in the morning whilst we were sitting in the park, he could have explain to my whilst we were driving back in the evening but I really cannot remember. MR MALAN Can you just clarify that please? Did you not say in your evidence-in-chief that you sat there the whole day and you didn't know what was going on and you were only informed by McCarter after you completed this operation? MR BOSCH That is correct Chairperson, I didn't know exactly what was going on. Because I did not work in Durban I did not have the background of this person, only later did they tell me how he fitted into this picture and what was happening. MR MALAN Did they tell you this before he was shot or afterwards? MR BOSCH No, I think it was on the way back. MR MALAN But you said in your evidence-in-chief that it was only after you went back that he told you. MR BOSCH That is correct. MR MALAN And now I hear you saying that he could have told you this in the morning while you were sitting in the park but you're not sure when. MR BOSCH Chairperson, I'm trying to remember but I cannot, I wish I could because it would make it easier for me if I could remember but I cannot. MR MALAN But if it was the case that he told you in the morning then it means that you knew that before he was shot why he was going to be shot. MR BOSCH That's possible. MR MALAN So why do you say under oath that he did not know that he was going to be shot? MR BOSCH Chairperson, I'm trying to remember, I cannot. MR MALAN So what value should be attach to your statement then? MR BOSCH Chairperson, I can just say what I remember at the point when I made the statement. Now today I can remember more things but when I made the statement I really could not remember. MR MALAN But you're making statements about things you cannot remember. You say now you cannot remember and yet you make a statement about it. Mr Roussouw, maybe you should lead us here. I do not know what we should consider to be his evidence and what not his evidence. MR ROUSSOUW Maybe I should clear that up with questioning. Mr Bosch, as far as the motivation is concerned and the circumstances surrounding the person's arrest and the things which then happened, is it your recollection that when you were informed about those details and the background concerning all of this, was it given to you by McCarter after the man was shot? In other words the motivation for the murder. MR BOSCH That is correct, Chairperson, that is the way I remember it. MR ROUSSOUW Very well. In your statement you also mention that before the shooting incident you were not informed about what would happen, you do mention that you had a suspicion that he was going to be shot. Now my question is, can you remember that Mr McCarter told you before the shooting incident that this person would be shot? MR BOSCH Chairperson, I don't want to admit or deny it, I cannot say. It might be that he told me beforehand but I cannot remember. MR MALAN I really don't know if this is going if this is going take this any further. You said explicitly and you say it under oath and you also read this, but you don't qualify it. You were sitting in the park the whole day, you tried to find out what was going on but you couldn't find out. You've read the statement to us under oath but now you do not want to confirm what you're written under oath as well as testified under oath. What value can we attach to your evidence or what kind of value? Nevermind. Mr Roussouw, please continue. MR ROUSSOUW Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr Bosch, you also heard the evidence that - this is now by Mr McCarter, that Spyker Mhieza was not present when this operation was launched, and you said in your statement that according to your memory he was indeed there. Is that your recollection? MR BOSCH When I made the statement Chairperson, it was indeed my recollection but I might be wrong. MR MALAN What is your recollection now? MR BOSCH Chairperson, as I heard the people speaking this morning, Mr McCarter that is, it creates the idea that I was in the bus, Rosslee was in the bus, McCarter was in the bus, Wasserman was in the bus and something tells me that there were also two black members. I said three but then I'm making a mistake. MR ROUSSOUW Thank you, Mr Chairman, that is the applicant's application. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR ROUSSOUW CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr Bosch, your evidence on page 13 of your application which you also repeated today, the fact that you drove behind Wasserman towards this shooting range, I'm putting it to you this is incorrect, Wasserman and Taylor arrived at the shooting range after you guys were there already. MR BOSCH That is possible, Chairperson. MR VISSER You also said that material, a cloth was pulled over Bhila's head there at the precipice. My information is that this hood was already placed on his head in the car and that his hands were cuffed behind his back and that he was taken in that condition towards the precipice and it was only after he was killed that the hood was removed from his head as well as the cuffs, what do you say about that? MR BOSCH I remember the hood, I remember the cuffs but I do not know when it was put on his hands. I remember the cuffs were taken off just before he was thrown off the cliff. MR VISSER That concludes my questions, thank you Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VAN SCHALKWYK Thank you, Chairperson. Mr Bosch, this incident took place about 12 years ago, is it possible that in your memory there might be a few gaps with regards to what had happened during these incidents? MR BOSCH That is correct, Chairperson. Like I've read before I would like to forget these things, I don't want to have them in my thoughts anymore. MR VAN SCHALKWYK You made no specific notes which you could then look at later in order to help you recollect what had happened? MR BOSCH No, I made no notes. MR VAN SCHALKWYK I'm asking you specifically because in your statement you referred to Spyker Mhieza and Mgade and insofar as it concerns Sergeant Mgade I understand your evidence now that you could have been incorrect and it's quite possible that he was not present at all. MR BOSCH That is correct, Chairperson. MR VAN SCHALKWYK You also have heard when my learned colleague, Mr Prior and Hugo referred to travelling documents which makes it quite clear that Mgade was not together with the team and he did not receive and S&T, so we accept the possibilities or the probabilities are that he was in fact not present. MR BOSCH I accept that. MR VAN SCHALKWYK With regards to my other client, and maybe I can just put it this way, go one back, I received instructions from Mr Mgade and his instructions are that he was not involved in this incident at all and he was not present at all. MR BOSCH That's correct, Chairperson. MR VAN SCHALKWYK With regards to Mr Mhieza, the man who went by the nickname of Spyker, is it so that at one point there was another person stationed at Vlakplaas with the nickname Spyker? MR BOSCH That is correct, yes. MR VAN SCHALKWYK And this Mr Mhieza or Spyker, where was he stationed? MR BOSCH This Spyker was at the Durban Branch, he was stationed there. MR VAN SCHALKWYK Do I understand your evidence correctly today, that with regards to his presence there is also a vagueness in your memory, you could be making a mistake with regards to his presence? MR BOSCH Yes, that is correct. MR VAN SCHALKWYK Mr Bosch, you also heard the evidence of Mr McCarter with regard to the amount of influence on a political level which you as members of Security Branch experienced. I'm using "influence" in the wider sense of the word, you can also say indoctrination. Was it also your personal experience? MR BOSCH Yes, we were exposed to daily and weekly reviews which we had to read. ...(transcriber's own translation) MR VAN SCHALKWYK Is it also your evidence that you were yourself influenced by all of this? MR BOSCH Yes, that is correct, Chairperson. MR VAN SCHALKWYK With regard to the operation itself, the Bhila incident, just a few questions. In the first place, in your mind who would you say was in complete control of everything that happened there? MR BOSCH Colonel Taylor. MR VAN SCHALKWYK At that specific stage did you feel that this whole operation and that which transpired there, and again I use the word "operation" in the wider sense of the word, that this was normal, in line with your daily duties? MR BOSCH Yes. MR VAN SCHALKWYK Did you also feel that you could question these instructions? MR BOSCH No, Chairperson. MR VAN SCHALKWYK And according to your observations during this incident, did you have the impression that anybody was in the position to question these instructions? MR BOSCH Not according to myself, Mr Chairperson. MR VAN SCHALKWYK With regard to ...(intervention) MR MALAN May I just ask you, to which instructions are you referring? MR VAN SCHALKWYK I refer to the instructions to kill Bhila. I will deal with in it a bit more detail just now. It's common cause that you were not present when McCarter received these instructions? MR BOSCH That's correct. MR VAN SCHALKWYK And today, and you were also asked a few questions by Mr Malan, do you say that it's possible that there whilst you were at the shooting range which is now called a municipal park, whilst you were sitting there, is it possible that a discussion was then held with regards to what would happen to this man and what his identity is? MR BOSCH That's quite possible but I cannot say I'm 100% sure about when they told me all of this. MR VAN SCHALKWYK If one tries to be realistic I'm sure you wouldn't have sat there the whole day and not have asked "why are we sitting here, who is this person". MR BOSCH They did tell me that he was a member of the ANC and he was a trained member and he was arrested. MR VAN SCHALKWYK Now with regards to your version about what had happened ...(intervention) MR MALAN Sorry that I'm interrupting you again. INTERPRETER The speaker's microphone. MR MALAN On what basis can you say with so much certainty that they would have told you this is a trained ANC terrorist? You can remember that really specifically, you keep confirming it but you can't remember anything else, can you remember who told you that? MR BOSCH No, Chairperson, I cannot remember who told me that, that's my problem. I don't know it it's McCarter who told me, I don't know what he told me, I don't know when he told me all of this. It would have been very much easier for myself if I knew this and then I could tell. MR MALAN You would have made it much easier for us as well. MR BOSCH Yes, I know, Chairperson. MR MALAN Because if we are not satisfied that you are telling us the truth, whether we want to or not we cannot give you amnesty. MR BOSCH I realise that, Chairperson but I really cannot remember. MR VAN SCHALKWYK Mr Bosch, seen in that light - you also heard the evidence of McCarter with regards to exactly what happened at the shooting incident and also what happened to the body of the deceased, the fact that he was thrown over the cliff, seen in the light of the problems you have remembering as you sit here today is it possible that Mr McCarter's version is true? MR BOSCH Yes, it could be the correct version. MR VAN SCHALKWYK Surely a man would not come here and admit that he'd a body over a precipice if he did not indeed do that? MR BOSCH That's correct, Chairperson. MR VAN SCHALKWYK Thank you, Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VAN SCHALKWYK CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HUGO Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr Bosch, we are provided with an affidavit of Mr Ernest Ramatala, and I'm sure it will be handed in later by Mr Prior as soon as Mr Ramatala is called, there are just two aspects I want to discuss with you. Firstly I'd like to tell you that Mr Ramatala says amongst other, that during this incident Mr de Kock was on leave, that was when you were sent from Vlakplaas to Durban. Can you remember if that is indeed the truth? MR BOSCH Yes, it could be correct, I cannot remember. MR HUGO And Mr Ramatala says further that his recollection is that you, Mr Bosch, drove in a beige BMW. It's not quite evident from the affidavit but can you remember something like that, can you remember coming with a BMW from Pretoria to Durban? MR BOSCH Yes, I do remember. Mr de Kock's vehicle was the white BMW and I when he was on leave I drove it, so he must have been on leave. ...(transcriber's own translation) MR HUGO Then Mr Ramatala also said in his affidavit that there were order groups which were addressed by McCarter. Did you ever attend these order groups, the ones which were addressed by Mr McCarter? MR BOSCH Maybe some of them, maybe not all of them but it wasn't really my working area, my work area, my field of work was in the Eastern Transvaal. MR HUGO I have no further questions, thank you, Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HUGO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR NGUBANE Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr Bosch, you are a trained policeman, is that correct? MR BOSCH That is correct, Chairperson. MR NGUBANE And you know the importance of an affidavit? MR BOSCH That is correct, Chairperson. MR NGUBANE And when you prepared your affidavit were you legally assisted? MR BOSCH That's correct, Mr Chairman. MR NGUBANE I saw you nod your head and look at the legal representative, did you think of denying that you were legally represented? MR BOSCH No, Chairperson, I made two statements, one without a legal representative and one with one. MR NGUBANE Alright. Now in your statement when you mentioned the people who were with you when this operation was undertaken, you categorically stated their names, do you recall? MR BOSCH Please repeat your question. MR NGUBANE In your statement when - let's look at page 15, paragraph 2, you mention Michael and Spyker as well as a black member of Vlakplaas who you think is Aubrey Mgade, Frank McCarter and Rosslee as well as Wasserman, do you agree? MR BOSCH That is correct, Mr Chairperson. MR NGUBANE And there was nothing preventing you from saying that "I do not recall who the people were but I think that those people were this and this and this one", is that right? MR BOSCH Chairperson, I know Michael and Spyker worked together in Durban and my recollection tells me that Spyker and Michael were there that evening. Mr McCarter says something. I don't want to dispute that, I don't want to admit or deny it. MR NGUBANE I see. No, my question in just simple, in your affidavit at no stage did you say "I think that so and so was present but I'm not sure", do you agree? MR BOSCH That is correct, Chairperson. MR NGUBANE Yes, coming to what you have said now, McCarter said something else and you don't want to say he is lying, is that right? MR BOSCH That is correct, maybe his memory is better than mine which I actually think might be the case. MR NGUBANE Is it not the position that you want your evidence to be as corroborative as you can of that of Mr McCarter? MR BOSCH No, Chairperson, not at all. MR NGUBANE In any event Mr McCarter was your senior, is that right? MR BOSCH That is correct, Chairperson. MR NGUBANE And when he was your senior you didn't want to contradict him, is that right? MR BOSCH That's correct, Chairperson. MR NGUBANE Now Taylor, on the day of this incident did you personally meet Mr Taylor? MR BOSCH I saw Taylor in the park. MR NGUBANE You didn't meet him at CR Swart Square, is that right? MR BOSCH Not as far as I can remember, no. MR NGUBANE What was he doing in the park? MR BOSCH Chairperson, everybody just stood around and waited. MR NGUBANE Did you speak to Mr Taylor in the park? MR BOSCH Chairperson, because it was only my second time in Durban - I met Taylor before but I wasn't really on such a level with him that I would speak to him. I respected him and I greeted him and that was it. MR NGUBANE How much time did you spend with Mr Taylor in the park? MR BOSCH One whole day, Sir. MR NGUBANE Pardon? MR BOSCH One whole day, Chairperson. MR NGUBANE Now this comrade policeman, you stay with him in the park for the whole day, you only greet him and you don't speak to him any further? MR BOSCH Chairperson, we did not speak about Bhila, maybe I spoke to him about other things, irrelevant things. MR NGUBANE My question was simple, I did not ask whether you spoke to him about Bhila or not, I asked you whether you spoke to him and you told me an irrelevant thing, that you only greeted him. If there were other irrelevant things, can you tell me why you didn't tell me about that? MR BOSCH Chairperson, I did not make small talk with Colonel Taylor, if he asked me something I would have answered him but I did not talk with him, I did not chat with him. MR NGUBANE Well those irrelevant things, were they not small talk? MR BOSCH It can be small talk, Sir. MR NGUBANE So you are contradicting yourself, you say you didn't conduct small talk with Taylor and in the same breath you say that you spoke about irrelevant things which could be small talk, do you understand yourself? MR BOSCH Chairperson, I'm saying maybe I could have discussed irrelevant things with Mr Taylor or made small talk, but I cannot say that I did not or I did. MR NGUBANE Did Mr Taylor in the park at any stage indicate to you that Bhila was an ANC man? MR BOSCH It's possible, Chairperson. MR NGUBANE Are you suggesting that you can't recall? MR BOSCH I cannot recall. MR NGUBANE Can you tell when - just collect your mind now, can you tell when you learnt that Bhila was an ANC man, was it in the park or was it where he was assassinated or was it on your way back from the assassination? MR BOSCH Chairperson, as far as I can remember someone told me, I don't know if it was Frank or someone else in the park or on the way there, is that this person was an ANC trained person and he was connected with the bomb explosions and on the way back he informed me that he was involved in a court case and that hew as acquitted. That is the way I remember it. MR NGUBANE I see. The interpretation I got - I'm listening to the English interpretation, is that you were told as you were moving to the park, is that your evidence? MR BOSCH That's why I say I'm not sure if, whilst we were going to the park or whether it was in the park or wherever, I do not know when they told me. I know that they told me he was an ANC member but I don't know when they told me this. MR NGUBANE And when he arrived in the park being handcuffed, what impression did you gain of him? MR BOSCH That they've just arrested an ANC member and they've brought him in now. MR NGUBANE So you must have known before he could come to the park, that he was an ANC man? MR BOSCH Possibly, Sir. MR NGUBANE And when he arrived in the park, did you know that he was going to be killed? MR BOSCH That's where my problem lies, I cannot remember where I heard that he will be killed, whether it was in the park, on the way to the park, wherever. I cannot remember. If I could I will tell you but I can't remember when I was told this. MR NGUBANE Were you killing an ANC man for the first time on that day? MR BOSCH Just repeat the question please, Mr Chairman. MR NGUBANE Was it the first time that you were involved in the killing of an ANC man? MR BOSCH That is correct, Chairperson, in these type of circumstances, similar circumstances, yes. MR NGUBANE If you say similar circumstances, you mean an innocent man who has been detained and was going to be killed unarmed, is that what you mean? MR BOSCH That is correct, Chairperson. It was the first I got involved in something like this, where a person was taken and simply shot. MR NGUBANE And did you do that again thereafter? MR BOSCH No, Chairperson. MR NGUBANE That must have been a cultural shock to you, is that correct? MR BOSCH It was not only a cultural shock but spiritual as well. MR NGUBANE So that must have left an everlasting impression in your mind? MR BOSCH Chairperson, my whole police career since I joined the Security Force, left scars in my life. MR NGUBANE But this particular incident, can you equate it to any other experience that you have every had? MR BOSCH No, Sir. MR NGUBANE So my difficulty is, this thing is happening to yourself, it's causing you some cultural shock of unequalled enormity and you are vague about the details. It surprises me why you can't remember the details of this particular incident which was outstanding in your life. MR BOSCH Chairperson, this incident and the other incidents I did not afterwards go and talk to people about this and discuss it with them. I wanted to forget it, I wanted to get it our of my system, it just had to get out. MR NGUBANE And when did you decide to apply for amnesty? MR BOSCH In November 1996. Ja, they received it in 96/12/12. MR NGUBANE I'm not asking about the date when you submitted your amnesty application, I'm just interested in the date when you had this cleansing of the soul and decided to come clean on the matter, when did that happen to you? MR BOSCH Chairperson, when they said we could apply for amnesty and we had to make everything public. I cannot recall what the date was, it was said when we were all told to apply for amnesty. MR NGUBANE And you were also told that if you applied for amnesty you would be forgiven, you won't be prosecuted, is that right? MR BOSCH Chairman, I know that if you apply for amnesty you have to make a full disclosure and I am not trying to hide anything otherwise I would not be sitting here. I just want to get it our of my life. MR NGUBANE Well don't anticipate my questions, I have not at any stage indicated to you that you are hiding anything, why do you jump to that? MR BOSCH Chairperson, I'm not jumping to conclusions, I'm just saying that I know there are certain requirements that I have to comply with to apply for amnesty, so I cannot come and sit here and talk nonsense and think that I should receive amnesty just for sitting here. I can tell you what happened as I recall it from 12 years back. MR NGUBANE Right, but at the time you decided to apply for amnesty it was about 10 years back, is that correct? CHAIRPERSON 2 years. MR NGUBANE In 1996, Sir. I stand corrected. CHAIRPERSON Not 10 or twelve, 2 years. Oh, 10 years after the incident? MR NGUBANE Yes, yes. So it was - the events must have been fresher than they are at the moment, is that correct? MR BOSCH Chairperson, I can now recall more than I could two years ago when I handed in this application, because I did not consult or talk with anyone about the incident or phone and say: "What happened that day", I did it on my own and I wanted to get it over with, as I could remember it. MR NGUBANE Now reference has been made to a submission by van der Merwe - I suppose it's bundle 2 that has been referred to now and again, do you also ...(intervention) MR ROUSSOUW Sorry, Mr Chairman, we were not placed in possession of that bundle so I think questions would be a little bit unfair, unless you can place it before the applicant. MR NGUBANE Okay, well I won't pursue that. CHAIRPERSON The large bundle 1, page 126, that's in the assassination of Ndwandwe, Ntseni, Ntjale, Ndlovu and Vilagazi. ADV PRIOR Mr Chairman, it's the problem the Committee anticipated, that reference is going to now be made to the General's submissions and Mr Roussouw it would seem was furnished with the bundles only peculiar to the Bhila application. However we've made a copy available to him. CHAIRPERSON Well I have no doubt ...(no sound) to in a great many applications. MR ROUSSOUW Mr Chairman, I've seen it before but I can't give the evidence. MR NGUBANE Mr Bosch, have you seen the submissions by Mr van der Merwe at any stage or were you apprised of the submissions of Mr van der Merwe at any stage? MR BOSCH Chairperson, which van der Merwe is it, is it General van der Merwe? CHAIRPERSON The Commissioner. MR BOSCH The Commissioner. I was at the hearing of Cosatu House and I heard what he had said. MR NGUBANE And do you align yourself with his submissions? MR BOSCH That's correct, Chairperson. MR NGUBANE Before I go to the submissions by van der Merwe, do you agree with me that this amnesty application provided you with an opening for you to escape prosecution and you rushed to grab that opportunity? MR BOSCH No, Chairperson. MR NGUBANE Are you applying for amnesty because you want to avoid prosecution or are you applying for amnesty because you want the world to know the truth of what happened? MR BOSCH Chairperson, I apply for amnesty to receive amnesty and so that everybody can know what happened in the past. MR NGUBANE So actually your motivation is to receive amnesty and not be prosecuted? MR BOSCH Partially yes. MR NGUBANE Now at page 177 van der Merwe says "It's human nature to lie or exaggerate, especially it the person concerned ..." That's paragraph 15.2. "... especially if the person concerned believes that he or she can gain therefrom in some manner." Do you agree with that statement? MR BOSCH I agree, Chairperson. MR NGUBANE And does the statement apply to you? MR BOSCH Chairperson, I am here to speak the truth, I speak the truth as I remember it. That is why I am here, otherwise I would not be here. MR NGUBANE No, what I mean is that as a human being does this statement apply to you, if you want some benefit are you prepared to lie and exaggerate, being a human being referred to by Mr van der Merwe? MR MALAN ...(inaudible) from, Mr Ngubane? Can you just refer us to where you read from? MR NGUBANE It's page 177 of bundle 2, paragraph 15.2. MR VISSER If I may be permitted to interrupt, Mr Chairman, that is not the statement of General van der Merwe, that is the Foundation for Equality before the Law, by General Stadler. CHAIRPERSON As I said earlier, van der Merwe is in volume 1, General van der Merwe. MACHINE SWITCHED OFF MR MALAN Mr Ngubane? MR NGUBANE Oh, I'm sorry. MR MALAN What you read from starts on page 169 in bundle 2 and that is a submission compiled by Stadler on behalf of the Foundation for Equality before the Law. MR NGUBANE No, I'm sorry that I misled the witness, I thought that was van der Merwe. MR MALAN It's the same statement, it's just a different author. MR NGUBANE Major General S D Stadler, do you know him? MR BOSCH Yes, Chairperson, I know him. MR NGUBANE And do you agree with what I've read to you? MR BOSCH Chairperson, I agree with the piece that you have read now, I did not read the whole thing. MR NGUBANE Now you have tried to explain paragraph 2 of page 15, the name Spyker, and in my mind an impression was created that you were trying to create the picture that this Spyker you were talking about was a Vlakplaas man. You made a mistake and referred to Spyker who was in Vlakplaas, is that what you were trying to do? MR BOSCH No, Chairperson, not at all. A person next to me asked if there was a Spyker at Vlakplaas and yes, there was a person there but he was not involved with this incident. I did not refer to him when I said this Spyker is Vlakplaas's Spyker, I said that my suspicion or I remember that Spyker from Durban was on the mountain with us. MR NGUBANE Well what do you mean if you say your suspicion was that Spyker from Durban was involved? MR BOSCH Chairperson, at the time when I wrote this statement in my mind I had a picture that Michael and Spyker were involved. It was proven incorrect here today but I then made a mistake. ...(transcriber's own translation) MR NGUBANE Do you know Spyker Mhieza from Durban? MR BOSCH I did see him once or twice Chairperson. MR NGUBANE Do you know where you had seen him? MR BOSCH Chairperson, he was always with - if there were routine investigations then he worked with the black members of Vlakplaas, the Askaris and they handled them, not handled but they worked in groups and that is how I know Spyker. MR NGUBANE Were you ever involved with him in any murder of any person? MR BOSCH No, Chairperson, no operations nothing. I just knew of his existence and I knew he worked with Lawrie Wasserman. MR NGUBANE If this man was never at any stage involved in any murder with you, can you explain why you would make such a huge mistake and involve him in this outstanding encounter in your life and say he was there if that was not so? MR BOSCH Chairperson, that's the chance one takes when one writes something like this after so many years. MR NGUBANE When you compiled this affidavit were you taking chances or were you coming clean of what you know? MR BOSCH Chairperson, at the time I wrote this I thought that I want to write down everything that I can recall and if I did not put down Spyker's name here and he was there and I might have forgotten about it, it would also be a problem for me. I do not want to implicate him in something but according to my thoughts my head tells me that he was there but I could be wrong. MR NGUBANE You have spoken about taking chances, a chance that one takes. Were you taking a chance when you compiled the affidavit or were you coming out clean? MR BOSCH Chairperson, I want to come clean, I'm not taking any chances. MR NGUBANE So why now refer to that's the chance that a person takes if he makes a statement? CHAIRPERSON If you made an affidavit about something that happened 10 years ago, would you be confident that everything in it was correct? MR NGUBANE I'm worried about the word "change", Mr Chair, I think it's important. CHAIRPERSON He's relying on his memory and he says "My memory is not 100% accurate", isn't that taking a chance? MR NGUBANE My worry, Mr Chairman, is that in his affidavit he doesn't say that "from my recollection I think this is correct", he's very positive about these facts and today he says that that's a chance that one takes. And in the light of the fact that one is required to make a full disclosure, I respectfully submit ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON He's made a full disclosure and he's told us today he still thinks that man was there, he has been contradicted by a previous witness. As I understand his evidence it is that he still believes that Spyker was there. MR NGUBANE Mr Chairman, his recent evidence was that he said he still believed that that man was there but he has just said that since the first witness said that man was not there, he concedes that that man was not there. MR MALAN I wonder as a person whose first language is Afrikaans, I understood him to say: "When I made my statement I had to make as full a disclosure as possible. The risk involved is that one may put in things that then turn out not to have been so because you to rely on your memory". So "chance" might as well have been a synonym in this instance for risk taking. I hope that helps you because I didn't see anything - but you may pursue if you want to, I didn't see anything intended to go beyond stating the obvious there. MR NGUBANE Thank you very much. I got it as "chance" then I was worried about that, then for the explanation I thank you for that. MR BOSCH Mr Chairperson, on page 20 I wrote "In closing I would just like to mention that I cannot recall the incidents totally because it was a long time ago. Some of the facts might be mentioned as hearsay or something that I might have heard after the incident. Since above-mentioned incidents I have tried to forget about these incidents and to rid myself of memories thereof." MR MALAN My trouble there is because most of the applicants make this submission in their application, but you can continue. MR NGUBANE Thank you. You still maintain that you are not sure whether you were informed about the details of Mr Bhila on your way back from killing him or before you could kill him? MR BOSCH That is correct, Chairperson, I am still not sure. MR NGUBANE Did the first applicant at any stage tell you that Mr Taylor had given him a request to kill Mr Bhila? MR BOSCH No, Chairperson. MR NGUBANE So you were not aware of an order or an instruction or a request form Mr Taylor to kill this man? MR BOSCH Chairperson, I received my instructions from Mr McCarter and as far as I know, and it has also come to light here, that Mr McCarter and Colonel Taylor made the arrangements for this. MR NGUBANE And are you still positive that at the park Mr Taylor at no stage told you that this man should be killed? MR BOSCH Not Mr Taylor, I cannot tell. MR NGUBANE Thank you, Mr Chairman, no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NGUBANE CROSS-EXAMINATION BY ADV PRIOR Mr Bosch, what was your role or your purpose at this shooting range, I do not understand it clearly. What were doing there? MR BOSCH Chairperson, I didn't have a function, I was just there. ADV PRIOR Until almost sundown as you say, you just sat there in the park? MR BOSCH That is correct, Chairperson, and I did drive up the mountain with them. ADV PRIOR What were the arrangements for lunch, did you braai there? MR BOSCH As far as I can recall they bought cold drinks for us, we did not eat. I cannot recall us eating there. ADV PRIOR And this detainee, Bhila, did he receive anything to eat? MR BOSCH Not to eat but to drink, yes. I don't even think we had something to eat. ADV PRIOR But how did he drink, he was handcuffed? MR BOSCH If I recall correctly, at that stage he had chains around his ankles. I cannot recall correctly but I think he had chains around his ankles. ADV PRIOR Was he questioned? MR BOSCH No, he was not questioned. ADV PRIOR Do you recall if he was questioned? Would you remember if he was questioned? Was he assaulted? MR BOSCH No, Chairperson, he was not assaulted. ADV PRIOR Your evidence as I understand it when you read it out on page 16, you were informed coming back from the murder on Bhila, that he was an ANC activist. MR BOSCH Chairperson, as I can recall when we drove back, when Rosslee, Frank and I were alone in the car I asked him more about it and I wanted to know where this man fits in and then he told me the finer details. ADV PRIOR Mr Bosch, it's a simple question. We would like to know from you what was in your mind when you drove up the mountain, did you realise that you were in the process of murdering Mr Bhila or did this not come to your mind? MR BOSCH Yes, it did. ADV PRIOR Thank you. So you knew when you left the shooting range, you were on your way to a place where Bhila would have been murdered? MR BOSCH That's correct, Chairperson. ADV PRIOR And in the vehicle, this sack, was it on his head? MR BOSCH When we started driving the bag was on his head. It was a little bit dark but if cars pulled up next to you and they see somebody with a bag over his head, I think the bag was placed on his head a little later. ADV PRIOR At the place where he was eventually shot, did Mr Wasserman get out of the vehicle? MR BOSCH As far as I can recall everybody got out of the vehicle. ADV PRIOR At the place where he was shot later? MR BOSCH That's correct. ADV PRIOR Did anybody speak to him? MR BOSCH Not as far as I can recall. ADV PRIOR When he was shot, did he sit down, kneel down, did he stand? MR BOSCH He was sitting at that stage, Mr Chairperson. ADV PRIOR Do you recall who shot him? MR BOSCH Yes, Frank and Rosslee. ADV PRIOR Who shot first? MR BOSCH That I cannot recall, Chairperson. ADV PRIOR When he was shot by the first person did he fall? MR BOSCH No, he just stayed sitting. ADV PRIOR After the first shot? MR BOSCH Yes, as far as I recall. ADV PRIOR Or did both people shoot him simultaneously? MR BOSCH No, it was not a shot and then a shot, it was just two shots and then it was finished. ADV PRIOR And who threw him over the precipice? MR BOSCH As far as I can recall it was Spyker and Michael but I might be wrong, that Spyker wasn't there. ADV PRIOR We know the area was not known to you. We have a request from the family as to where you disposed of Mr Bhila's body and this request is made to all the applicants. If in the following days you can come together and try and indicate the place more or less. It is very important for the family of Mr Bhila to know where the body is or where the body was disposed of. MR BOSCH Chairperson, with the greatest love I will to help to find it but I think the one could most, I'm not trying to say it is him, it could maybe be Lawrie he knows the area and I'm willing to help. MR VISSER Mr Chairman, may I ask the witness to stick to surnames instead of using christian names, I find it terribly confusing. ADV PRIOR A last aspect. In Mr Rosslee's application for amnesty, page 24 of the first bundle he says "Then in Durban ..." And I quote, perhaps I can quote the English: "In Durban we were met by Mr L Wasserman of the local Security Branch. He told us that two of the accused in the Amanzimtoti bomb blast criminal trial had been acquitted but were still continuing their subversive actions. Our task was to arrest them for purposes of elimination." Do you recall anything like that? MR BOSCH No, Mr Chairperson. ADV PRIOR I would like to put it to you, according to Mr Rosslee's testimony and Mr McCarter's testimony there was a group and this information would have come to you as a group or to McCarter alone when you were not with the group. MR BOSCH Mr Chairperson, as I recall it I cannot recall if I was deployed with them in Durban or whether they called me from another place but because they worked here so long in this area I did not interfere with their arrangements and planning that they had with the local branch's people. If there was any work they gave me the work and I did it. ADV PRIOR Thank you, Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV PRIOR RE-EXAMINATION BY MR ROUSSOUW Mr Bosch, it was put to you by Mr Prior that at a stage when you left the park up the mountain you knew that Bhila was to be killed. According to your recollection, was this an inference that you drew or was this a fact that you recall that Mr McCarter or any of the persons have told you? MR BOSCH Chairperson, this is where my problem is today, I cannot recall who said what to me and when, I cannot say. MR ROUSSOUW From the situation, would you have drawn such an inference? MR BOSCH I could have drawn an inference, yes. MR ROUSSOUW Thank you, Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR ROUSSOUW ADV SIGODI Just to follow on on what Mr Prior asked you. His question was: "What was your role at the shooting range"? What I want to find out from you is what were you doing there the whole day? MR BOSCH Chairperson, we just sat there and waited. We conversed with each other and we just waited. I read a book or a newspaper and just waited. ADV SIGODI Where was the deceased at this time, was he in a separate room or was he in the same room as you were? MR BOSCH Chairperson, we were not in a room we were outside and he just sat there next to us. ADV SIGODI Did you not seek to extract any information from him at any stage? MR BOSCH No, Chairperson, not at all. ADV SIGODI Then why did you stay the whole day and not ask what is going to happen to this person, why are we being kept here, what is the purpose of him being here the whole day until sunset when he was taken to the place where he was killed? MR BOSCH Chairperson, we got there early in the morning and we waited for it to get dark. ADV SIGODI Precisely, that's why I want to find out why you had to wait until it was dark. MR BOSCH So that we could take the arrested person away. ADV SIGODI And take him where to? MR BOSCH To kill him. ADV SIGODI In other words you knew that you were waiting for sunset for it to be dark so that you can take him away in order to kill him? MR BOSCH That is correct, Chairperson. ADV SIGODI And you also knew that throughout the course of the day whilst you were waiting? MR BOSCH That's correct, Chairperson, but I don't know what time I was informed about it. ADV SIGODI But the main purpose of you staying there was to wait until dark so that you could take this person in order to go and kill him? MR BOSCH That is correct, Chairperson. ADV SIGODI The other aspect which I want to cover from you is, you say that this incident was not just a cultural shock, it was also a spiritual shock for you and afterwards you did not want to go and talk about it, you wanted to get it out of your system and at the same time you say that this is the only incident that you were involved in that was of this nature. You say you felt guilty or you wanted to get it out of your system, didn't you at that time believe that what you were doing was the right thing to do? Didn't you believe that you were doing the proper thing as a member of security? MR BOSCH Chairperson, at that stage I was a member of the anti-terrorist unit and there was a war between us and the ANC/SACP. ADV SIGODI Yes, that's precisely what I want to cover with you, what was actually going on in your mind, because you give us the impression that you had a spiritual shock and you wanted to forget about it but at the same time you give us this impression that what you were doing you believed in, you were actually doing, the thing which you were doing was the right thing to do. It's what you believed in because you believed you were at war with the ANC. MR BOSCH That is correct, Chairperson. I wouldn't go and kill someone who is not my enemy, not at all, I wouldn't be able to do it but this, I do not know how to explain this to you, it gave one the ability to do this. ADV SIGODI The problem I'm having is that there are a lot of things that you cannot recall and that gives me a problem with your application insofar as full disclosure is concerned because I find it difficult to say to what extent was your role in this whole episode. For instance if you mention certain people by name and then you come now and say to us that you cannot recall or you're not sure that those people were there and yet you have mentioned them by name in your application. MR BOSCH Chairperson, that's correct, it would also make it much easier for myself if my memory was of such a nature that I could remember everything and that I could tell the Committee everything and I also then knew that it was 100%, but I'm unfortunately only human and I can forget things. MR MALAN Are you sure that you were there that day? MR BOSCH I was there, Chairperson. MR MALAN You're dead certain, you've got no doubt about it? MR BOSCH I'm dead certain. MR MALAN When you read your statement and specifically 9(a)(iv) on page 37 of your application, page 14 of bundle, round about the middle you say "It was still morning when we got to the relevant place." Can you see that? MR BOSCH Yes, I do. MR MALAN When you read this bit you read "It was early in the morning when we got to the relevant place." So somewhere in your mind you thought that you were there really early or do I understand you incorrectly, did you only read it wrong? MR BOSCH Yes, I read it wrongly but it felt like it was a very long day to stay there. MR MALAN Do you think you were there early in the morning? MR BOSCH Not 6 o'clock but maybe 10 or 11 o'clock. MR MALAN There is also evidence which will also come to the fore which says that Bhila was indeed interrogated. MR BOSCH Chairperson, as far as I can remember he was not interrogated, he only sat there. MR MALAN So when he was not being interrogated, didn't you ask anybody: "Look are we going to ask him questions or not"? What did you do? MR BOSCH I was not part of that investigation, the investigation into Bhila. I do not know how to explain this to you. I am the technical person on the farm, at Vlakplaas, I don't know why they sent me there. MR MALAN What do you mean you were the technical person? MR BOSCH I took the photographs, I made videos, I helped with the listening devices etc. MR MALAN Oh, I thought you said on the farm meaning at the shooting place. MR BOSCH No, Vlakplaas. MR MALAN Who gave the instruction then to go to the farm? MR BOSCH Colonel de Kock put me in the group that had to come to Durban. MR MALAN But the whole group who came to Durban didn't go to the farm or rather did not go to the shooting range. MR BOSCH We were only three white members. MR MALAN Were only white people members part of the group? MR BOSCH No, Chairperson. MR MALAN I ask you again, why did you go with to the shooting range? Who said you must go there? Your answer is: "The whole group went". It seems as if the whole group did not go. I repeat my question, why did you go to the shooting range? MR BOSCH Because McCarter told me to come with to the shooting range, he told me I had to go with them. MR MALAN And you never asked him why? MR BOSCH Not at that stage, Chairperson. MR MALAN What was your relationship, what was the relationship between you and him? MR BOSCH It was very good, a good relationship. MR MALAN Were you also friends? MR BOSCH Yes. MR MALAN Did you also get together socially outside of work? MR BOSCH Yes. MR MALAN And you never asked him: "McCarter, why are we here, Frank what are we doing here"? MR BOSCH Chairperson, this is what I've been trying to say the whole day, I cannot remember when they told me, whether it was on the way to the mountain, on the mountain, back, I cannot recall. MR MALAN Let me just put it to you this way - maybe you've got to page through your application, please open up on page 14 of the bundle. If you look at 9(a)(iv), if you can just quickly scan that and look at what you are saying there and what you've, you've contradicted yourself in cross-examination. All you say is you cannot remember, you do not know whether it was correct, that's how you thought then, so there is very little that remains here. I do not know what I should consider to be your version, I suppose we'll have to look at the record bit for bit. You say that not one of you were informed about what your instructions were when you went to Durban, do you stand by that? MR BOSCH That's how I've written this thing two years ago, that's the way I remembered it. MR MALAN But how do you remember it differently now? MR BOSCH Chairperson, Mr McCarter spoke, he gave his evidence, so this is freshening my memory. MR MALAN So what do you remember now, what would have been your instruction then? MR BOSCH Chairperson, I cannot remember whether I was present when Bhila was picked up. I cannot remember that at all. And that we'd transferred him into another vehicle I cannot remember that. MR MALAN You say Spyker and Mhieza were there, both of them? MR BOSCH Yes, that's the way I remember it. MR MALAN I do not want to know where you might be wrong, I want to know what you remember. You remember that both of them were involved? MR BOSCH That is correct. MR MALAN And you also remember that there was a black man who was cuffed who was with you during the course of the day? MR BOSCH That is correct. MR MALAN And now I'm turning the page, page 15, you waited there the whole day and no-one ever told you why you were there, or rather your presence? MR BOSCH That is correct. When I wrote this that is what I thought. MR MALAN Mr Bosch, I'm asking you what your thoughts are now, what do you remember now. So these are still your memories? MR BOSCH Yes, Mr Chairperson. MR MALAN And then Sergeant Aubrey Mgade, as far as you can remember he was there, is that how you remember it? Is that the way you remember it two years ago, that's how you remember it today. MR BOSCH That is correct, Chairperson, but I might be mistaken. MR MALAN Yes, surely, you can make mistakes about everything but I want to know how you recall it now, do you recall him to be there? And then as you continue when you got out of the vehicle after the puncture you had, the flat tyre, you still did not know what the plans were and what you had to do. Then you said that you suspected - now this is only after you got out of the bus, you suspected that he possibly could be killed. Is that still how you remember it? MR BOSCH That is correct, Chairperson. MR MALAN At no stage earlier on in that day did you have the suspicion that this person might be killed, is that correct? As you remember it now. MR BOSCH As I remember it now yes. MR MALAN And it wasn't strange to you that no interrogation took place? MR BOSCH No. MR MALAN And that - and I'm using your words, you had a long day, you sat there the whole day and no-one did anything and nothing happened? MR BOSCH That is correct. MR MALAN Now if you look at page 16 of the bundle, right at the bottom you say that you tried to find out what the reason was why they detained him but you were only informed that he was an ANC terrorist. MR BOSCH That is correct, Chairperson. MR MALAN Is this still the way you remember it? MR BOSCH That is how I remember it when I wrote it down, yes, Mr Chairperson. MR MALAN You don't remember it differently? MR BOSCH No. MR MALAN And then you also wrote down on page 17 what you political objective was. Why did you write about your political objective so elaborately? If you had no information where did you get all of that from? Because you are referring to your own political objectives here, a political objective linked to an act that you were involved in. MR BOSCH When I wrote this Chairperson, or rather I was a member of Vlakplaas, I was an anti-terrorist member and this person we killed was a terrorist. MR MALAN Would you now please page to 10(a), it's on page 17 of the bundle, the second sentence starts "Because we could not legally prosecute this person it was necessary to take the threat that he held for the general public as well as the then government out of the way." You wrote this too years ago, where did you get this information from two years ago? MR BOSCH From my memory, Chairperson. MR MALAN But from your memory you didn't know why the person was there. I'm trying to tell you that if you can remember anything else, as soon as it becomes clear please tell us because at this stage you are confusing me and I'm only trying to play open cards with you, I just want to see whether you might be able to help me. MR BOSCH Chairperson, like I'm sitting here I am as confused as you, I don't know whether it's morning or night. MR MALAN Thank you, Mr Bosch. CHAIRPERSON Mr Bosch, can you explain to me why on page 5 of your handwritten application you said there was financial advantage, you got a bonus in cash? MR BOSCH Chairperson, this has got nothing to do with this incident, this pertained to something else. CHAIRPERSON Well tell me what incident it has got to do with? MR BOSCH I think it was an external operation, foreign operation. CHAIRPERSON On whose behalf? MR BOSCH Vlakplaas. CHAIRPERSON And they paid you a bonus, a cash bonus did they? Who paid it to you? MR BOSCH The people on the farm paid it. CHAIRPERSON Was that the normal practice at Vlakplaas? MR BOSCH No, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Well where was this external operation? MR BOSCH In Lesotho, Sir. CHAIRPERSON What was it? MR BOSCH It was the killing of people, a cross-border attack. CHAIRPERSON How many people were killed? CHAIRPERSON I think seven or eight, Sir. CHAIRPERSON And when was it? MR BOSCH 1985/86, Sir. CHAIRPERSON So this was before this, you'd been on cross-border killing people in Lesotho and paying bonus for it? MR BOSCH And a medal, Sir. CHAIRPERSON So it wasn't your first killing this one? MR BOSCH That's right, Sir. CHAIRPERSON You mustn't consult with your legal advisor while you're answering questions. CHAIRPERSON How many people from Vlakplaas were paid this bonus? MR BOSCH All the people that took part in the operation, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Who were they? MR BOSCH It was Major Eugene de Kock, Willie Nortje, myself, Snor Vermeulen, Anton Adamson and security policemen from Ladybrand. CHAIRPERSON Have you applied for amnesty for this? MR BOSCH Yes, Sir. CHAIRPERSON And have you disclosed that you received a cash bonus? MR BOSCH It's in this thing, Sir. CHAIRPERSON And have the other people done the same? It's in the same application? MR BOSCH That's correct, Sir. CHAIRPERSON We can check on the other, thank you. MR ROUSSOUW Sorry, Mr Chairman, I don't know if there are any further questions for Mr Bosch or whether he can be excused? WITNESS EXCUSED MACHINE SWITCHED OFF MR VISSER We'll be here at 9 o'clock, Mr Chairman. ADV PRIOR Mr Chairman, may we just announce it so that the public can hear. CHAIRPERSON We will now adjourn till 9 o'clock tomorrow morning. ADV PRIOR Ladies and gentlemen, please all stand. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS