amntrans AMNESTY HEARING 1998-11-10 DURBAN 2 LAWRIE WASSERMAN DEATH OF SIPHO BHILA https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=52960&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1998/98110919_dbn_981110dbn.htm MR VISSER Mr Chairman, this is a similar application by Mr Wasserman. Unfortunately you would have to refer to two bundles in order to find the complete part of his application, relevant to the present application. That is the Zandile bundle 1 at page 112 to, well it runs on to page 125. Thank you Mr Chairman, I appreciate that. No, it is further than that, it starts at page 112 Mr Chairman and it runs on. The second - oh, I am sorry, 135, I heard 125, sorry Mr Chairman my Attorney says 125, I misheard. I heard 135. Mr Chairman, the other bundle is the Bhila bundle, at page 28. Sorry page 44, it is the typed page 28. It has been a long day Mr Chairman, page 44 and following. The witness is ready to take the oath Mr Chairman CHAIRPERSON In English or Afrikaans? MR VISSER English. LAWRIE WASSERMAN (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER Are you ready Mr Wasserman? MR WASSERMAN Yes. MR VISSER Mr Wasserman, you are applying for amnesty for the abduction, detention and the elimination of Mr Bhila and for all acts, omissions or offences associated with that incident, is that correct? MR WASSERMAN That is correct. MR VISSER You request the Amnesty Committee to also incorporate into your evidence also, the written submissions by the Foundation for Equality before the Law, the submission by Gen Johan van der Merwe to the TRC and the written statements by the Generals to which Mr Rosslee has already referred the Committee to, is that correct? MR WASSERMAN It is correct Mr Chairman. MR VISSER The same applies to some of the evidence, to the evidence which Mr Vlok and Mr Van der Merwe, Gen Van der Merwe presented to the Amnesty Committee in the COSATU House and Khotso House and Cry Freedom incidents, is that correct? MR WASSERMAN That is correct Mr Chairman. MR VISSER Would you please Mr Wasserman, inform the, or fill in the Committee about your personal particulars? MR WASSERMAN I was born in Northern Rhodesia, later Zambia in October 1955. At the age of 12, I moved to the then Southern Rhodesia, which is now Zimbabwe. MR VISSER To Bulawayo, not so? MR WASSERMAN To Bulawayo in Southern Rhodesia, which is now Zimbabwe. I completed my schooling there in 1974. We were all politically conservative and supporters of the Rhodesian Front, the Ian Smith political party. I grew up in a conservative environment. MR VISSER Your political background, you stated in the Zandile bundle at page 113, very briefly. Would you care to elaborate to the Committee on your ranks? Perhaps first of all I must ask you this, is it correct that you joined the BSA, the British South African Police, in Zimbabwe? MR WASSERMAN Correct Mr Chairman. MR VISSER And you went through the ranks there until you reached the rank of Warrant Officer if I remember correctly? MR WASSERMAN The equivalent thereof. MR VISSER And thereafter you came to South Africa? MR WASSERMAN Correct. MR VISSER When was that? MR WASSERMAN In March 1981. MR VISSER March 1981. And did you then join the South African Police? MR WASSERMAN Correct Mr Chairman. MR VISSER With what rank? MR WASSERMAN Detective Sergeant. MR VISSER And you are still today employed, I am sorry, are you still today employed in the service of the South African Police Service? MR WASSERMAN No Mr Chairman, I left officially on the 31st of May of 1998. MR VISSER 1998, this year? With what rank? MR WASSERMAN Detective Warrant Officer, Inspector. MR VISSER Inspector, Detective Warrant Officer, all right. What were your experiences after leaving school against this police background and starting with the time that you served in the SAP for those six years before you came to South Africa? Can you just sketch to the Committee the background to give them an understanding of what you were exposed to? MR WASSERMAN I did basic training in the then Salisbury Police Depot. I started off Uniform Branch enquiries, based in the districts. After a period of two years, I applied to the Criminal Investigation Department of the SAP. Shortly after that, there was a massive increase in war effort from the then ZANA and ZIPPER Forces of the Patriotic Front. From then I was pretty well relieved of routine police duties, and went into counter-insurgency pretty well full time. MR VISSER Full time in counter-insurgency operations? MR WASSERMAN In counter-insurgency operations, that is right. MR VISSER All right, yes, continue. MR WASSERMAN I attained the rank of Detective Section Officer, which is the equivalent of the Warrant Officer rank. MR VISSER And during that period of police service in Rhodesia, what type of experiences did you have in a period where you suggested that you, or that you stated that you dealt with counter-insurgency operations? MR WASSERMAN Mr Chairman, I was involved in many armed contacts. I hit a good couple of landmines myself and my Unit, ran sources and agents within those two liberation movements that I mentioned, ZIPPER and ZANA. MR VISSER Did these experiences make any impression on your own mind? MR WASSERMAN Yes, it made an impression Mr Chairman, obviously there was a lot of fighting, a lot of blood, a lot of killing, and one hardened somewhat. MR VISSER Yes. On the 6th of March 1981, you emigrated to South Africa, and you joined the South African Police with the rank of Sergeant, you have already told us? MR WASSERMAN That is correct. MR VISSER In 1982, in February, were you then transferred to the Security Branch in Durban until your retirement on the 31st of May 1998? MR WASSERMAN That is correct. MR VISSER At which state you were declared medically unfit, due to post traumatic stress syndrome, is that correct? MR WASSERMAN That is correct Mr Chairman, yes. MR VISSER Are you, yourself, receiving treatment for your condition? MR WASSERMAN No. MR VISSER During your service in Durban, you served under Colonel, the late Colonel Andy Taylor as I understand it, for most of the time? MR WASSERMAN That is correct. MR VISSER What Section was he the Head of? MR WASSERMAN He was Head of the Terrorist Section. MR VISSER And how many divisions were there in that Terrorist Section? MR WASSERMAN It was basically divided into two Sections. MR VISSER Two Sections? MR WASSERMAN At a later stage, yes. MR VISSER Which were they? MR WASSERMAN Terrorist Investigation and MK Terrorist Intelligence. MR VISSER Intelligence? So you had an Investigation side and an Intelligence side? MR WASSERMAN Correct. MR VISSER Is it my understanding that Colonel Taylor, Major Taylor at the time, was the Head of both of those legs of the Terrorist Section? MR WASSERMAN That is correct Mr Chairman. MR VISSER Who was the Head of the Investigation leg? MR WASSERMAN It was also Colonel Taylor. MR VISSER Also Colonel Taylor? Who was the Head of the other leg, the Intelligence leg? MR WASSERMAN Colonel Botha. MR VISSER Colonel Botha, who will also give evidence in the present proceedings? MR WASSERMAN Correct Mr Chairman. MR VISSER Who was your Divisional Commander of the Security Branch during 1987? MR WASSERMAN 1987? MR VISSER Yes. MR WASSERMAN Colonel Steyn. MR VISSER Yes, that would be one of the applicants, I am sorry, I think it is J.S. Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON J.A. MR VISSER J.A. J.A. Steyn. You sketched briefly through your Attorney the time when you filed your application for amnesty, your political background. Just before I come to that, perhaps we should go on with this, in your application form, that would be the Zandile bundle, at page 121 to page 124, is that correct? MR WASSERMAN That is correct. MR VISSER And do you confirm that those were the basic political, that was the basic political background against which you require the Amnesty Committee to look at your amnesty application? MR WASSERMAN That is correct. MR VISSER Would you like to extend a little on that, go a bit further and tell the Committee of how your mindframe was after you had come to the Republic of South Africa and how your political views were forged. MR WASSERMAN Mr Chairman, after arriving in South Africa, I realised that the revolutionary onslaught was on at this side of the Limpopo. It was very similar, or it was about to gain in similarities to that which I had experienced in Rhodesia. I also came to realise that there was not that much difference between the ideologies of the three liberation movements including the South African one, and the ANC. On joining the South African Security Branch, I had reason to study the ideologies and the groupings relevant to the South African struggle and familiarise myself with it and particularly familiarise myself with the increase in Umkhonto weSizwe activities, military activities of that organisation and its recruiting increased of its military activities inside and outside South Africa and the increase of its underground activities. I also studied many of the events which built up the terror campaign and familiarised myself with threats of a communist invasion, which was, which I anticipated would start happening inside South Africa. MR VISSER Did you find yourself in sympathy with those learnings, with the theories and did you take those seriously to heart, yourself? MR WASSERMAN I did indeed. MR VISSER Yes. Just continue. We are talking about matters which had an effect upon you. Yes, continue. MR WASSERMAN The amount of MK activities in Natal and the expose of MK's activities in Natal in the form of bomb attacks, assassinations on SAP members and personnel and people that were not sympathetic to the ANC, and members of the SAP had a profound effect on me. Some colleagues were killed and injured and their homes destroyed, whilst they were performing duties. They were targeted as legitimate targets by the liberation forces and that effected me merely because they represented or was seen to be upholding what was the government of the day. MR VISSER Which was in fact so, not so? MR WASSERMAN That is correct. MR VISSER Yes, continue. MR WASSERMAN Myself and my colleagues in the Durban Branch, we were also aware that we were targets ourselves and these factors did ensure that we had to do anything we could to contain and normalise the situation in this province. MR VISSER Did you visit scenes of maiming, scenes after explosions where people had been murdered, or injured yourself? MR WASSERMAN I did Mr Chairman. MR VISSER Give us some experiences which you had. MR WASSERMAN Well, I attended all the major bombs in Durban, in the Durban central area. I had gunfights myself in which there were killings and woundings. I attended houses of members and councillors who had been bombed. MR VISSER What did such experiences have on you personally? MR WASSERMAN It made me determined to oppose these attackers and stop them. MR VISSER Yes. Please continue. MR WASSERMAN I realised that as policemen the major primary role is to protect the public from destruction, devastation and killing and the situation here was particularly difficult to do that. Many people in this province discriminated against us because we were not always able to achieve and to keep things normal. MR VISSER What was the situation with investigating crime and taking people to court in regard to politically orientated violence? MR WASSERMAN If that was principally almost the first intention, however, if we succeeded and one could get prosecution through the court, that would be a great sense of accomplishment. However, the situation did get out of hand, and this became the exception rather than the rule Mr Chairman. MR VISSER What were the problems in taking matters to court if there were any? MR WASSERMAN The major problem was that due to the amount of intimidation, violent reaction witnesses and intimidation of the public, they would not assist and lack of witnesses was the principle problem. MR VISSER Yes. As far as you were concerned, would you agree with the proposition that has been made by many members of the Security Branch, that what you were expected to do was really to fight an undeclared war? MR WASSERMAN That is correct Mr Chairman. MR VISSER Did you consider the circumstances in and around the Durban area to be a war situation? MR WASSERMAN It definitely was Mr Chairman. MR VISSER What do you ascribed that to? MR WASSERMAN Mr Chairman, the amount of military activity which is now a matter of record I believe before this Commission, indicate in itself the amount of military activity conducted by the MK forces. MR VISSER Yes. Mr Wasserman, with leave of the Committee and in order not to fall into repetition, we will not go into the detail of it now, but we will deal with it when Mr Botha gives his evidence, you know what his evidence is going to be, it has been discussed with you. Can you now say that you agree with his references to the violence which took place within this area during the period that you were here? MR WASSERMAN That is correct Mr Chairman. MR MALAN Is that a legitimate question Mr Visser, I mean he doesn't know yet what will be said? There may be an intention, but it has not been said, but we get the drift of what you want to achieve. MR VISSER I did that with a tongue in my cheek. MR MALAN Then you may proceed. MR VISSER But Mr Chairman, in fact I shouldn't even have put the question, because it just occurred to me just now that at the end of this witness' evidence, I am going to suggest that he does not give evidence about the other incidents and that we deal only with the Bhila incident. He is going to be back any way, and he can then confirm it. MR MALAN Thank you. MR VISSER Perhaps that question can just be struck off the record. You were faced with a faceless enemy we heard the evidence of Mr Rosslee, about workers at day and combatants by night? I think the Committee has heard so often about the problems which the Security Branch members had, that I don't think it is necessary to drive these points into the ground and perhaps we can continue, going on to something else. But the fact of the matter is this, is it not, that instead of just merely exercising pure police duties, you were called upon as members of the Security Branch, to uphold political party's views and policies? MR WASSERMAN That is correct Mr Chairman. MR VISSER And as such, became more and more embroiled in a political struggle, rather than taking people to court and investigating cases as normal policemen would be expected to do? MR WASSERMAN That is correct Mr Chairman. MR VISSER Was it your experience also that your colleagues as well as yourself, were called upon to do duty as we know it, border duty? MR WASSERMAN That is correct. MR VISSER And that there were problems with adapting as Mr Rosslee put it when you returned to Civvy Street, to the country? MR WASSERMAN Yes, that is correct. MR VISSER Did you, yourself, find a difficulty in that adaption? MR WASSERMAN Yes, I did. MR VISSER Through all of this, Mr Wasserman, and I am leading a little bit Mr Chairman, for the sake of going a bit quicker, is it true that you experienced certain pressures? MR WASSERMAN I did. MR VISSER Where did those pressures come from? MR WASSERMAN The pressures came from the government, from - we were expected to get hold of the problem and normalise the situation. We were placed under increasing pressure to get results and normalise the situation. MR VISSER Yes. There were also security systems in place, were there pressures exerted from that direction as well? MR WASSERMAN There were. MR MALAN Mr Visser, will you not allow us just to pursue these last two questions, three questions. The response of prejudice firstly was that you experienced on yourself, pressures from government. In which way, who in government put pressure on you? MR WASSERMAN Perhaps that is not the correct words, but from within my Branch. MR MALAN Well, exactly, could we really stick to your really, not jargon or rhetoric, but your personal experience. Within the Branch there was pressure? MR WASSERMAN There was. MR MALAN Your senior officers expected performance from you? MR WASSERMAN That is correct Mr Chairman. MR MALAN Then secondly you responded also to the call upon, you were called upon as Security Branch to uphold a political party's views and policies. That was the question, and you confirmed it? Will you explain to me what do you have in mind there, which political party or were you simply expected to implement the law as expected by the government of the time, and do that under a command structure? Or is it really, are you referring to a political party? MR WASSERMAN When was that question put forward? MR MALAN Just before the one that I raised first. You were called upon as Security Branch to uphold a political party's views and policies, that was the question, and you confirmed it. I am putting that question again. Was there ever expected of you to uphold a political party's views and policies? MR WASSERMAN No. MR MALAN Okay, thank you, you may proceed Mr Visser. MR VISSER Thank you Mr Chairman. Who was the government of the day in 1987 Mr Wasserman? MR WASSERMAN The National Party, Mr Chairman. MR VISSER The National Party, was that a political party within this country? MR WASSERMAN Indeed it was Mr Chairman. MR VISSER Did it have its own policies? MR WASSERMAN Yes, it did. MR VISSER Including the policy of apartheid? MR WASSERMAN It did. MR VISSER Were you - was it expected from you to uphold the laws as promulgated by that government? MR WASSERMAN It was Mr Chairman. MR VISSER Let's go on to the assassination of Mr Bhila. Can you just tell the Committee exactly what you remember about this incident? Perhaps before I get there, perhaps before I get there, looking at your application form, at page 44 of the Bhila volume, bundle 1, no particulars had been given to you, by you in that application form, except that you referred to the incident under paragraph 9(a)(i) as being the elimination of ANC/MK member, Sipho Stanley Bika, which you rectified at page 45 as under the heading name of victim, Sipho Stanley Bhila. MR WASSERMAN That is correct. MR VISSER And what you said under (iv) was the nature and particulars of this incident are not immediately recalled to mind. I would do the necessary research, etc, in an attempt to provide a full and detailed statement which will be provided at a later stage. What I want to ask you to tell the Committee is this, was there such an occasion where you had the occasion of making a full and detailed statement? MR WASSERMAN At the time of completing this particular one that we are talking about here, there was no time at my Attorneys. MR VISSER All right, if you want to deal with that first, when you signed this affidavit, your application form, did you have a one on one consultation with your Attorney at the time, in December 1996? MR WASSERMAN That is correct. MR VISSER And at that time, how long before the cut off date was it that you consulted with your Attorney? MR WASSERMAN I believe it was two days. MR VISSER Two days? And Mr Wasserman, it is no secret, you apply for some 15 incidents? How many? MR WASSERMAN I think it is 15. MR VISSER 15 incidents, and at the time when you couldn't remember this, the idea was to get in the application form at all costs. MR WASSERMAN That is correct Mr Chairman. MR VISSER And then later, to fill in? MR WASSERMAN That is correct. MR VISSER Yes. Now, what I am referring to now is were you later - did you later receive a notification from the Investigation, apparently my Attorney doesn't agree with me Mr Chairman, just bear with me. Oh yes, no that is correct, it wasn't a subpoena, it was an informal request made to you and others of Durban, who served in the Security Branch at the time, to meet with the Investigation Unit of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, is that correct? MR WASSERMAN That is correct yes. MR VISSER And you spent some two days dealing with all the issues which were raised by them and you allowed yourself to be questioned by them? MR WASSERMAN That is correct Mr Chairman. MR VISSER Inter alia, did you also deal with the Bhila incident? MR WASSERMAN Correct Mr Chairman. MR VISSER So, having said that Mr Wasserman, and you having now had opportunity of recalling the events of the 22nd of February 1987, will you please tell the Committee what you remember about the incident concerning Mr Bhila? MR WASSERMAN Yes Mr Chairman. On the day in question, I was instructed by Colonel Taylor, to follow him in my vehicle to the Railway Police range. MR VISSER How did this instruction reach you, can you remember? MR WASSERMAN Via my radio. MR VISSER On your radio? MR WASSERMAN On my police radio, yes Mr Chairman. MR VISSER I am sorry, but let's just take this step by step. Colonel Taylor or the then Major Taylor then asked you to meet him where? CHAIRPERSON Follow? MR VISSER To follow him where? MR WASSERMAN To the Railway shooting range at Winkelspruit. MR VISSER All right, and did anything happen along the road? MR WASSERMAN We pulled off before the range and I, and we spoke together and he informed me that the Vlakplaas contingent had picked up Mr Bhila. He was at the range. MR VISSER The pistol shooting range? MR WASSERMAN That is the pistol shooting range, that is correct Mr Chairman. He further informed me that Mr Bhila was going to be eliminated. MR VISSER Did you say to him, well, why tell me? MR WASSERMAN No, the reason for that was clear to me as I also regarded Mr Bhila as a very dangerous Umkhonto weSizwe trained person. MR VISSER On that point, Mr Wasserman, we have received from my learned friend Mr Prior, Exhibit D, I believe it is D Mr Chairman, may I just check, the extract from the charge sheet, D, an extract from the charge sheet. In the Ramlakan case, which is just a cross-reference to Exhibit A and I am afraid Mr Chairman, I know you haven't received yours yet, we will really make serious attempts at making sure that you have yours tomorrow, at page 13 to an incident at the Port Natal Administration Board Offices at Lamontville relating to an SPM limpet mine, is that correct? I beg your pardon, my Exhibit D seems to have disappeared, I must have mislaid it here somewhere. Be that as it may, it speaks for itself Mr Chairman. Is that part of the reason that, yes, I have just found it Mr Chairman, did you - what did you know about Mr Bhila, his background? Did you know that he had received training for example? MR WASSERMAN That is correct Mr Chairman, I knew he had been trained, he had been military trained internally. MR VISSER Yes, and the charge sheet suggested in paragraph 4 of Exhibit D that he suggested the bomb to be planted at Lamontville township offices on the 16th of June 1985? MR WASSERMAN That is correct Mr Chairman. MR VISSER That is an important day, June the 16th, for the African National Congress, is that not so? MR WASSERMAN That is correct yes. MR VISSER It is a day in which an important event is being remembered? MR WASSERMAN Correct sir. MR VISSER What about DLB's and Mr Bhila, can you fill the Committee in? MR WASSERMAN Mr Bhila was responsible for the maintenance and distribution of weapon DLB's. MR VISSER Yes, we will hear more about that when Mr Botha gives his evidence. Were those issues you believed to be relevant to Mr Bhila? MR WASSERMAN That is correct Mr Chairman. MR VISSER As far as Mr Bhila is concerned, and as far as your information was concerned at the time, did he act in concert with others, in a unit or a cell? MR WASSERMAN Yes, he did. MR VISSER Can you tell us who the other member or members of that unit might have been? MR WASSERMAN Mr Chairman, there were many amongst whom was Pumeso Nxiweni and Rosondo. MR VISSER And Rosondo, yes? MR WASSERMAN And many of the arrested people which has been referred to here, as the Ramlakaners, (indistinct) personnel. MR VISSER Least one gets the impression from your evidence so far that there were one or two or three MK activists who were planting bombs and limpet mines and explosives, etc, in the Durban area in 1987, can you just in a sentence tell us what the situation was? How prolific the membership was of people who had caused that kind of violent incidents? MR WASSERMAN Well, the people that we are referring to here, were part of the first internal APMC establishment by Umkhonto weSizwe inside South Africa. MR VISSER And they conducted their operations under a code name? MR WASSERMAN That is correct. MR VISSER What was that? MR WASSERMAN The code name was Operation Butterfly. MR VISSER Operation Butterfly? And it was due to the penetration of this Security Branch into Operation Butterfly and that is part of history now, and we know, that led to the Ramlakan case? MR WASSERMAN Correct Mr Chairman, yes. MR VISSER On the 24th and 25th of December 1986, approximately 30 of the cell members in Operation Butterfly were arrested? MR WASSERMAN Correct Mr Chairman. MR VISSER And we know that those were the ones - that was the group from which the accused in the Ramlakan case came? MR WASSERMAN That is correct. CHAIRPERSON When were they arrested? MR VISSER 24th and 25th of December 1986 Mr Chairman. There was a swoop and approximately 30 of them were arrested. Not to say that others of the same group weren't arrested later, but that was the big swoop. CHAIRPERSON And they were the accused in the Ramlakan case? MR VISSER From that group, not all of them were accused. CHAIRPERSON Judgement was given on the 18th of February 1987 with the State case closed on that day. I think there must be some mistake about dates. MR VISSER I am not mistaken about December, I might be mistaken about the year Mr Chairman. MR WASSERMAN If I may assist Mr Chairman, I think it was 1985. MR VISSER One year out Mr Chairman. I think it is on record now, that Mr Bhila and Pumeso Nxiweni were inter alia two of the accused in the Ramlakan case. MR WASSERMAN It is correct Mr Chairman. MR VISSER We will deal with the incidents which are laid at the door of Operation Butterfly and or its members, in the evidence of Mr Botha. Coming back to your participation, you have just told us that you agreed with the viewpoint of Taylor that Bhila had to be eliminated, or did you say that he was a dangerous terrorist? I am not sure what you said. You agreed with Mr Taylor on what? MR WASSERMAN The reason was clear to me why Mr Taylor had said that. MR VISSER Did you agree with the thought that he had to be eliminated? MR WASSERMAN I did Mr Chairman. MR VISSER And you made common cause therewith? MR WASSERMAN I did Mr Chairman. MR VISSER What time of the day as best you can recollect, was it that you met Taylor on the way to Winkelspruit? MR WASSERMAN The best of my recollection is half past three, four o'clock, just after four in the afternoon. MR VISSER Yes. And would that be also more or less the time when you together with Taylor, each in your own vehicle, arrived at the pistol shooting range? MR WASSERMAN That is correct Mr Chairman. MR VISSER Yes. What did you find when you arrived there at the pistol shooting range? MR WASSERMAN I found the people from Vlakplaas there. MR VISSER Who were they? MR WASSERMAN Mr McCarter, Mr Rosslee, Mr Bosch, Mr Bhila. MR VISSER Did you know him well? MR WASSERMAN Mr Bhila? MR VISSER Yes? MR WASSERMAN Yes, I did. MR VISSER All right, so he is there. Who else? MR WASSERMAN I believe that was all that was there. MR VISSER All right, black members? MR WASSERMAN We had Warrant Officer Lembede from Durban. MR VISSER Michael Lembede? MR WASSERMAN Michael Lembede, yes. MR VISSER Yes, anyone else? MR WASSERMAN No. MR VISSER While you were there, did you see any interrogation of Mr Bhila? MR WASSERMAN There was no interrogation going on on Mr Bhila. MR VISSER Did you not interrogate him at all? MR WASSERMAN Not at all Mr Chairman. MR VISSER Would there have been any reason for you to interrogate Mr Bhila? MR WASSERMAN There is no reason for me at all to have anything to say to Mr Bhila, Mr Chairman. MR VISSER Would you have known at the time, or did you know at the time, the whereabouts of Mr Pumeso? MR WASSERMAN I did Mr Chairman, yes. MR VISSER It has been pointed out that this incident took place within three days after Mr Bhila was discharged from the Ramlakan case. Is that correct? MR WASSERMAN Correct Mr Chairman. MR MALAN I am sorry Mr Visser, could you just tell us you say that at that stage you were aware of the whereabouts of Mr Nxiweni? MR WASSERMAN That is correct Mr Chairman. MR MALAN Where was he at that time? MR WASSERMAN Allan Taylor Resident, Medical School. MR MALAN He was at the Res? MR WASSERMAN Yes Mr Chairman. MR MALAN Thank you. MR VISSER It was suggested that the police and that would include you, killed Mr Bhila in order to exert the police's own special justice, because it might have been thought that the Court was wrong in releasing him. What do you say to that proposition and that there was no other reason really why he was killed? MR WASSERMAN No, that is an incorrect reason Mr Chairman. MR VISSER What perspective would you place thereon? MR WASSERMAN Mr Chairman, Mr Bhila had already shown his readiness and preparedness to use limpet mines and distribute weaponry to other personalities. I had little doubt that he would continue with such actions. MR MALAN Sorry, may I just ask was he not charged for exactly those type of offences? MR WASSERMAN Yes, he was Mr Chairman. MR MALAN If the question was do you think the Court made a mistake to release him? MR WASSERMAN Are you asking my personal opinion? MR MALAN Or to acquit him? Yes, the question was that there was a suggestion that it was the police's own justice because the Court acquitted him on such counts and then you come back and you say, no, but he had already proved that he had the mines, that he was distributing weapons, wasn't that part of the charge sheet? That is really the question, or do you know what he was charged for? MR WASSERMAN Not one hundred percent, I don't recall exactly what he was charged for, I wasn't the docket carrier. MR MALAN You knew everything about him, but you weren't involved in the preparation of the case? MR WASSERMAN No, I was aware he was to be charged for a bombing of Lamontville offices and for handling weaponry and distribution thereof, but the fact that he was acquitted by the Court, I accepted that. MR MALAN Why do you accept that he had to be killed? MR WASSERMAN Because the Court was the one forum that he would have continued with his actions, he was a committed combatant. CHAIRPERSON You thought he was, but you had not been able to prove it, had you? MR WASSERMAN No, I personally had not been able to. CHAIRPERSON The police had not been able to prove it? MR WASSERMAN Not during the court case, no Mr Chairman. MR VISSER The only point Mr Chairman, least there is any confusion, is that I was really trying to clarify that there is no suggestion of criticism on the Court for having found, discharged him. If there was evidence, of court the Court was correct in doing so. This is the only point I am trying to make, but the reason why Bhila had to be killed in the estimation of this witness, that is another matter. That is the next question. I am trying to deal with that issue now, and he has answered Mr Chairman, and that is that he considered that Bhila, they knew that he had done these things, whatever the Court found, they knew he had done this from their information and he was, they knew also that he would continue with his activities, so that answer has also been given Mr Chairman. You, I think we have reached the point where you are at the pistol shooting range, you are there. As far as you can recall, he wasn't interrogated by anyone else, certainly not by you because you wouldn't have anything to interrogate Bhila about, and did you then later on that evening, accompany the Husky kombi which was referred to in evidence here, away from the pistol shooting range? MR WASSERMAN That is correct Mr Chairman. MR VISSER Were you in that car or did you follow with your own car? MR WASSERMAN I was in that vehicle Mr Chairman. MR VISSER Well, just take us from there and take us through the facts. MR WASSERMAN Mr Chairman, the following personnel got into that vehicle, it was myself, McCarter, Rosslee, Bosch, Mr Bhila and Lembede. MR VISSER Lembede, and where were you on your way to? MR WASSERMAN We were headed off to a spot that Mr Lembede was familiar with, which is in the Umbumbulu area somewhere, at a place that I am not able to get back to. MR VISSER Sorry, I didn't hear the last, you dropped your voice and I couldn't hear you? MR WASSERMAN It is a place in the Umbumbulu area, it is a spot that I am not able to get back to Mr Chairman. MR VISSER Yes, while you are on that point, we discussed last evening, did we not, the request that came through Mr Ngubane acting for the family of Mr Bhila, as to the possibility of discovering where that spot is? MR WASSERMAN That is correct Mr Chairman. MR VISSER Perhaps you could just tell the Committee what you told me on the probabilities of you finding it again? MR WASSERMAN The probabilities of finding it, are not good Mr Chairman. It was my first time to go there. MR VISSER Have you been there since? MR WASSERMAN I have not Mr Chairman. MR VISSER You travelled there in the dark, that is common cause? MR WASSERMAN That is correct. MR VISSER Did you travel with a straight road until you got to this particular cliff? MR WASSERMAN Not at all Mr Chairman. MR VISSER What was the position? MR WASSERMAN We left the tarred road, turned - I am not sure if we turned after Umbumbulu area or somewhere else, we turned to the right and thereafter, we turned many times, and I am unable to state where we were. MR VISSER Yes, but if there is any assistance that you can give at all, you are quite happy and willing to give such assistance? MR WASSERMAN I will, indeed. MR VISSER Yes. All right, you are on your way to the spot which you say you probably won't be able to find again, and what, did anything occur along the road, along the way? MR WASSERMAN We had a puncture along the way. MR VISSER Yes, and then eventually, did you come to this particular spot? MR WASSERMAN Eventually, the vehicle was stopped at that particular spot, yes. MR VISSER Tell us what you can remember about what transpired there. MR WASSERMAN At that spot, Mr Bhila was taken out of the vehicle and taken a walk to the edge. He was seated down. He was blindfolded. MR VISSER When was this blindfold placed in position? MR WASSERMAN The blindfold was placed I think, at the rifle range. MR VISSER At the rifle range already? MR WASSERMAN Yes. MR VISSER Right. Was he also cuffed? MR WASSERMAN That is correct Mr Chairman. MR VISSER By his feet or by his hands? MR WASSERMAN Wristcuffs. MR VISSER Wristcuffs. All right, and what happened then? MR WASSERMAN He was then sitting down and Mr McCarter had one shot, shot him once. MR VISSER Shot him once, where on his body did he shoot him? MR WASSERMAN In the head. MR VISSER In the head. What happened to Mr Bhila after the shot had been fired? MR WASSERMAN He lay down, was straightened out. MR VISSER All right. MR WASSERMAN Flattened out. MR VISSER And what happened then? MR WASSERMAN Then Mr Rosslee shot him in the head. MR VISSER Can you recall today clearly how many times? MR WASSERMAN No, not specifically, but I recall another two shots, I think, Mr Chair. MR VISSER Another two shots? MR WASSERMAN Two shots went off. MR VISSER In total? MR WASSERMAN In total. MR VISSER One and perhaps another one? MR WASSERMAN One, and perhaps another, yes. CHAIRPERSON So, two by Rosslee? MR WASSERMAN Yes sir. MR VISSER Two by Rosslee? Do you remember anything else that might have occurred while Mr Rosslee fired his shot? MR WASSERMAN Definitely Mr Chairman, he had problems with the feeding of the firearm he was making use of. He was cocking it, obviously to clear the stoppage that had happened. MR VISSER You know, when you and Mr Rosslee refer to cocking it, one gets the impression of cocking it with your thumb, bringing back the firing arm, is that what you mean? MR WASSERMAN No, that is incorrect, that is not the impression. MR VISSER What are you talking about when you say cocking it? MR WASSERMAN Pulling the slide right back. MR VISSER Wracking it in other words? MR WASSERMAN Wracking, it depends what shooting club you (indistinct). MR VISSER Yes, I suppose so, all right. You remember observing that? MR WASSERMAN Yes, I did, I did Mr Chairperson. MR VISSER If Rosslee had fired seven shots, would you have remembered that? MR WASSERMAN I very definitely would have remembered that, yes. MR VISSER Yes, all right. There was a suggestion made particularly by Bosch and reference thereto also made by Rosslee in his Exhibit B and in his amnesty application, to a certain Spyker Mhieza also having been present. First of all, or perhaps I should roll the two into one, did you see Spyker Mhieza there, either at the pistol shooting range or at the scene of the assassination on that particular day in question? MR WASSERMAN Mr Chairman, Mhieza was not there on that day. MR VISSER He wasn't, you can state that positively? MR WASSERMAN I can state that (indistinct). MR VISSER After Mr Bhila had been shot, what happened then, I mean to Mr Bhila? MR WASSERMAN Mr Lembede and Mr McCarter then bent over the body, I presume they were taking off the handcuffs and he was then pushed over the side of the cliff Mr Chairman. MR VISSER Yes. Was it quite dark? MR WASSERMAN It was very dark Mr Chairman. MR VISSER Were you however able to make out outlines, silhouettes of bodies? MR WASSERMAN That is correct sir. MR VISSER How far from the scene were you at the time? MR WASSERMAN I was standing from here to perhaps Mr Wilson. MR VISSER Justice Wilson, about five, six paces? MR WASSERMAN Correct. MR VISSER And were you able to observe what was going on? MR WASSERMAN To a very large extend, I could. MR VISSER Yes, all right. Mr Wasserman, we know that thereafter you left. Did you go back to Durban? MR WASSERMAN I went back to the rifle range first and then on to Durban, yes. MR VISSER What happened, well, you say the rifle range, do you mean the pistol shooting range? MR WASSERMAN That is correct. MR VISSER What happened there? MR WASSERMAN I then reported to Mr Taylor. MR VISSER Was he still there? MR WASSERMAN He was there, he was waiting there. MR VISSER Yes, and you told him what had happened? MR WASSERMAN I told him. CHAIRPERSON And you left your car there? MR WASSERMAN I had indeed, yes sir. MR MALAN Were there any other people waiting with Major Taylor at the range at that time when you returned? MR WASSERMAN There was another vehicle there Mr Chairman, I think that was Warrant Officer Lembede's vehicle. I don't recall anyone else, there might have been another personality with him, but I couldn't name such a person. MR MALAN Why would Taylor have stayed behind and wait for you there, all by himself? MR WASSERMAN I can't answer that. I think he would have waited to check on that vehicle that was also left at the range. My vehicle as well as Mr Lembede's. MR MALAN Can you tell me why all of you had to go along for the execution, I think you said yourself McCarter, Rosslee, Bosch and Lembede went with for the execution of Bhila, why all of you? MR WASSERMAN Well, Mr Taylor informed me that I must accompany Lembede, he would take us to a place where the job could be done. My exact role, I presume was just to accompany Lembede as another Durban person, on this operation. MR MALAN And to your recollection, only Mr Taylor stayed behind at the range, at that stage? MR WASSERMAN That is my recollection, yes sir. MR VISSER Mr Chairman, I am hoping you are going to tell me that you have had enough of this day. CHAIRPERSON 9 o'clock tomorrow morning. MR VISSER Thank you Mr Chairman. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS