amntrans AMNESTY HEARING 1998-11-16 DURBAN 6 LAWRIE WASSERMAN - (RECALL) DEATH OF PORTIA NDWANDWE https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=52968&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1998/98110919_dbn_981116dbn.htm MR VISSER Mr Chairman, perhaps it might be convenient to recall Mr Wasserman at this stage. His application, you will recall is in bundle 2, from page 112 onwards Mr Chairman. LAURIE WASSERMAN (still under oath) EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER (continued) Mr Wasserman, you gave evidence previously in these hearings, is that correct? MR WASSERMAN That is correct Mr Chairman. MR VISSER And you took the oath to speak the truth previously, do you consider yourself still bound to speak the truth in terms of the previous oath that you took? MR WASSERMAN I do Mr Chairman. MR VISSER Mr Wasserman we are not going to rehash or revisit the evidence which you already gave in regard to the political situation and political objectives. Can we go straight to the incident regarding Ndwandwe? MR WASSERMAN We can Mr Chairman. MR VISSER Now, you have heard the evidence of the previous witnesses. Will you briefly tell the Committee where you came into it, and what your part was first in the abduction and through to the end of the incident where Ms Ndwandwe was eliminated and buried? MR WASSERMAN Well Mr Chairman, I accompanied all the names that had been mentioned so far to the house. MR VISSER Mr Wasserman, can you just speak up a little bit please. MR WASSERMAN I accompanied the persons and personalities that had been mentioned by the previous applicants to this house at Onverwacht. Later, we all had our responsibilities from there, we knew what they were. I then proceeded with the bakkie through Lavumisa border post. MR VISSER Which border post is that, we have heard of ... MR WASSERMAN Oh, on the South African side it is called Culel, the Swazi side it is Lavumisa, it is the same post. MR VISSER I am sorry, I don't know whether I am the only one that is confused, but I have heard of a border post Culel and the other one is Onverwacht. Which of the two did you enter? MR WASSERMAN It is Culel, but it is also Lavumisa, it is the same place. MR VISSER Well, let's just stick to what we know, Culel. CHAIRPERSON (Microphone not on) MR VISSER Yes Mr Chairman, but it becomes very confusing on the record, when suddenly one refers to different names of people and places where we know which ones we have been referring to so far. MR WASSERMAN I will refer to Culel. MR VISSER If you could just stick to the names that we have been using so far. Please continue. MR WASSERMAN All right Mr Chairman, so from there, I proceeded up towards Manzini where I waited on Culel/Manzini road. Later on I met up with Du Preez. At that point where we met, is where the two informers were handed their bakkie. CHAIRPERSON What were the two of you travelling in at that stage? MR WASSERMAN Mr Chairman, at that stage I was alone in the bakkie. CHAIRPERSON Du Preez? MR VISSER Du Preez? MR WASSERMAN Du Preez was in the minibus. MR VISSER In the minibus? MR WASSERMAN In the minibus, yes. MR VISSER Kombi? CHAIRPERSON Kombi? MR VISSER It was actually a panel van Mr Chairman, but we will call it a kombi. All right, and you say there you handed the bakkie to the two informers, and what did you do, get into the kombi with Du Preez? MR WASSERMAN That is correct Mr Chairman. MR VISSER And what happened then? MR WASSERMAN We then proceeded into Manzini and took up a surveillance position. MR VISSER Behind or in front of the bakkie? MR WASSERMAN In front of the bakkie, which was in the vicinity of the entrance to the George Hotel. MR VISSER What time of the day was this approximately? MR WASSERMAN I would estimate it now between 17H00 and 18H00 Mr Chairman. MR VISSER Between five o'clock and six o'clock in the afternoon, all right? MR WASSERMAN Correct sir. MR VISSER Continue. MR WASSERMAN We were informed by radio that the subject, Ms Ndwandwe had arrived and had entered the bakkie. MR VISSER Who informed you by radio? MR WASSERMAN It was Mr Botha sir. MR VISSER And he was where? MR WASSERMAN They were in a position behind the bakkie. MR VISSER In Taylor's vehicle? MR WASSERMAN That is correct Mr Chairman. MR VISSER All right. MR MALAN Sorry to interrupt the course of things Mr Visser, but you said that you wouldn't want to lead all the evidence once again, in order to expedite matters, is there any reason why you are coming back to this? MR VISSER Mr Chairman, yes, I certainly am not doing this because I think that I have nothing else to do. I am just wondering whether this witness shouldn't at least tell you what his participation was. Perhaps I can go a little quicker, thank you for the indication Mr Chairman. Perhaps if I may then just lead you, is it true that at some stage, Ms Ndwandwe got into the bakkie with the two informers? MR WASSERMAN That is correct Mr Chairman. MR VISSER That the bakkie then left Manzini and travelled towards the Big Bend? MR WASSERMAN That is correct Mr Chairman. MR VISSER Did you follow them or did you go ahead of them? MR WASSERMAN We were ahead Mr Chairman. MR VISSER Ahead, and Taylor with his vehicle and occupants followed from behind the bakkie? MR WASSERMAN That is correct. MR VISSER Is it also correct that some distance away as Mr Forster had testified, the vehicles came to a standstill and Ndwandwe was transferred from the bakkie into the kombi? MR WASSERMAN That is correct Mr Chairman. MR VISSER From there, with which vehicle did you travel? MR WASSERMAN I was in the bakkie Mr Chairman, no, I was in the kombi, the kombi bus Mr Chairman. MR VISSER In the kombi? Mr Botha and Mr Forster said that it was raining that day, is that your recollection? MR WASSERMAN That is correct Mr Chairman. MR VISSER And that on the way to Hluti, the vehicles came to a standstill and Botha and Ndwandwe got onto the back of the bakkie, covered with a tarpaulin and where did you then, which vehicle did you then alight? MR WASSERMAN I then took charge and drove the 4 x 4, the bakkie. MR VISSER You drove the bakkie and who was with you? MR WASSERMAN Du Preez in the front. MR VISSER Du Preez. The other two vehicles left and exited at Culel? MR WASSERMAN Correct Mr Chairman. MR VISSER Where did you then go, did you go passed Hluti and where? MR WASSERMAN I proceeded to a point on the fence line, on the border fence line where Mr Botha and Ms Ndwandwe were handed over. MR VISSER Did they climb through the fence? MR WASSERMAN Correct Mr Chairman. MR VISSER And who was on the other side? MR WASSERMAN There was Mr Taylor and Mr Steyn, and Mr Forster. MR VISSER All right, what did you then do, you and Du Preez I should ask? MR WASSERMAN The Culel border post was closed, so we continued along the southern road of Swaziland. MR VISSER Did you go back to Manzini? MR WASSERMAN And headed into Manzini, yes. MR VISSER Did you stay over in Manzini that evening, that night? MR WASSERMAN We only got there in the early hours of the next morning, but we did stay over in Manzini, yes. MR VISSER There seems to be a suggestion that there was a burglary in a house where Ms Ndwandwe was living and that money was taken. If it is suggested that either you or Du Preez or you and Du Preez did that, what would you say about that? MR WASSERMAN I deny that emphatically Mr Chairman. MR VISSER Did you know where she lived? MR WASSERMAN Mr Chairman, she had various houses, she was very difficult to find at any set stage. I wouldn't have known exactly where she would have even kept that. MR VISSER If you wanted to go and find her at her house, you say you wouldn't have known where to go? MR WASSERMAN Not instantly Mr Chairman, one would have to mount a little bit of an operation around it, but not instantly, she had various addresses. MR VISSER Yes. You exited the next day, is that correct from Swaziland? MR WASSERMAN Correct Mr Chairman. MR VISSER I want to ask you, did you enter and exit Swaziland, you, yourself on valid passports and travel documents? MR WASSERMAN Mr Chairman, I had a false South African passport. MR VISSER And Du Preez? MR WASSERMAN A false South African passport as well Mr Chairman. MR VISSER And you entered and exited both ways, on the false passports? MR WASSERMAN Correct Mr Chairman. MR VISSER What did you do after you had exited at Culel the next, I am sorry, where did you exit the next morning? MR WASSERMAN We exited at Culel. MR VISSER At Culel, and where did you then go? MR WASSERMAN We proceeded to the house at Onverwacht border post. MR VISSER Yes, where you found Steyn and Botha and Forster and Ms Ndwandwe, is that correct? MR WASSERMAN That is correct, sir. MR VISSER Did you participate in her interrogation at all? MR WASSERMAN No, not Mr Chairman. MR VISSER And thereafter, you left for a farm in the Elandskop area in Pietermaritzburg, is that correct? MR WASSERMAN That is correct sir. MR VISSER With which vehicle did you travel? MR WASSERMAN In the minibus. MR VISSER The kombi? MR WASSERMAN The kombi bus. MR VISSER And was Botha and Ndwandwe also in the kombi? MR WASSERMAN Correct Mr Chairman. MR VISSER Was anybody talking to her, interrogating her during the trip from Swaziland to Pietermaritzburg? MR WASSERMAN Mr Botha was having discussions with her in the kombi. MR VISSER Yes. Did you listen to the contents of those discussions? MR WASSERMAN I was unable to listen due to the aboarding between the front and the back, I couldn't hear the conversation. MR VISSER After arriving at the farm, at Pietermaritzburg, did you there participate in any interrogation of Ndwandwe? MR WASSERMAN I took part in some questioning of Ms Ndwandwe Mr Chairman. MR VISSER Was she assaulted at any time during her interrogations where you were present? MR WASSERMAN No, she was not Mr Chairman. MR VISSER All right. Did you know what the decision was in her regard, what was going to happen to her? MR WASSERMAN I was aware of the situation in that regard Mr Chairman. MR VISSER When did you become aware? MR WASSERMAN From the outset Mr Chairman. MR VISSER From the outset? And eventually it transpired that she would not, she was not willing to cooperate with the police and certain orders were given? MR WASSERMAN That is correct sir. MR VISSER As far as you are concerned, what were those orders? MR WASSERMAN I was asked by Mr Taylor, to eliminate Ms Ndwandwe. MR VISSER Yes, would you just tell us what happened? MR WASSERMAN He told me that it was really now, Du Preez and I took her outside of the house, to where the grave had been dug previously. MR VISSER By whom? MR WASSERMAN By Du Preez and myself sir. MR VISSER All right. MR WASSERMAN We took her outside, the grave was about 60 metres from the house's verandah. Once she was outside, just beyond the verandah, I rendered her unconscious with a heavy blow. MR VISSER Using? MR WASSERMAN Using a wooden riot baton, police riot baton. MR VISSER Police baton, all right. Did you then carry her? MR WASSERMAN She was immediately unconscious and Du Preez and I then carried her to the grave that was dug in amongst the trees. MR VISSER Did you take her clothes off? MR WASSERMAN We then placed Ms Ndwandwe in the grave, half way, sort of half way in. I then fired a single shot into her head. MR VISSER Yes. MR WASSERMAN From here, she was dead. We then undressed her. MR VISSER Why was that done? MR WASSERMAN For clothing and identification purposes. Clothing could be identified at a later stage. MR VISSER Did you then place her in the bottom of the grave? MR WASSERMAN We then placed her in the bottom of the grave and began to fill it in. MR VISSER What with Mr Wasserman? MR WASSERMAN First put in a layer of some white lime, some building type lime. MR VISSER Why was that done? MR WASSERMAN That takes away any smell through the soil for wild animals or for smelling purposes. MR VISSER Before you placed that over the body, did you also place some plastic bags or agricultural bags over the body? MR WASSERMAN Mr Chairman, that was done slightly at a later stage. MR VISSER All right, please continue. You then started filling in, is that what you are saying? MR WASSERMAN Yes, there was first the lime and then filled up and then some rubbish bags were placed in on top. MR VISSER Refuse bags? MR WASSERMAN Refuse bags, yes. MR VISSER All right. Anything else? MR WASSERMAN The bags were there should anybody have a look or see anything indentations in that area, one would presume it was a little bit of a dump there Mr Chairman. MR VISSER Yes, and would then hopefully stop digging? MR WASSERMAN And hopefully avoid it. MR VISSER You were also involved in the matter of Cele? MR WASSERMAN Correct sir. MR VISSER Which was very, as the Honourable Chairman has pointed out, a very similar situation to the present one, the one of Ndwandwe? MR WASSERMAN Correct sir. MR VISSER When you say refuse bags, does it include also refuse that was placed somewhere as a layer over the grave? MR WASSERMAN I can't recall that explicitly, but there would have been some refuse in the bag, I would imagine sir. MR VISSER When the - after the Promotion of National Unity and Reconciliation Act was passed, you decided to apply for amnesty and is it correct that you did afford your cooperation to the Investigation Unit of the TRC in order to assist them inter alia in pointing out the place, the spot, where she was buried? I am referring to bundle 4 Mr Chairman? MR WASSERMAN That is correct Mr Chairman. MR VISSER And there is in bundle 4, at page 452, there is a diagram indicating the direction of the travel of the projectile which killed Ms Ndwandwe in the right hand top corner and the right hand bottom corner? MR WASSERMAN I see that Mr Chairman. MR VISSER Would that accord with your recollection of how you fired the shot into her head? MR WASSERMAN That is correct. MR VISSER After you had completed that, and the grave had been filled in, what did you then do? MR WASSERMAN Myself and Du Preez returned to the house sir. MR VISSER And you then left? MR WASSERMAN Correct Mr Chairman. MR VISSER Am I correct in assuming then that you did not, you were not part of the decision makers in regard to this incident? MR WASSERMAN Correct Mr Chairman. MR VISSER You followed orders, but you agreed with the contents of the orders? MR WASSERMAN That is correct Mr Chairman. MR VISSER For reasons which you already told the Committee? MR WASSERMAN Correct sir. MR VISSER Did you know Mr Labuschagne and Mr Verwey? MR WASSERMAN I do know them sir. MR VISSER And you noticed them there that day, questioning Ms Ndwandwe? MR WASSERMAN That is correct Mr Chairman. MR VISSER Were they present at the time when she was murdered? MR WASSERMAN Not at all Mr Chairman. MR VISSER Mr Wasserman, you were also involved in the elimination of Mr Pumeso Nxiweni, is that correct? MR WASSERMAN That is correct Mr Chairman. MR VISSER And if I understand correctly, you arrived on the afternoon of the 5th of November 1988, with Taylor at the safe house at Verulam? MR WASSERMAN That is correct Mr Chairman. MR VISSER Where you discovered Nxiweni being held by Botha, Van der Westhuizen and Du Preez? MR WASSERMAN Correct sir. MR VISSER Will you please tell the Committee what transpired after you had arrived? MR WASSERMAN At a later stage, I didn't have any questions to ask Mr Nxiweni. Later on myself, Mr Botha and Mr Du Preez left for the Allan Taylor residence. MR VISSER Did Du Preez tell you to come along? MR WASSERMAN Yes sir. MR VISSER And what did, is it correct that you lifted a DLB at the Allan Taylor residence? MR WASSERMAN That is correct Mr Chairman. MR VISSER Was this DLB, let me rather approach this differently, did you know Nxiweni before that day? MR WASSERMAN Correct Mr Chairman. MR VISSER Did you know of activities allegedly participated by him in, in which he participated? MR WASSERMAN Correct sir. MR VISSER Yes. We heard of an Allan Taylor unit. Can you tell the Committee as far as you know, what names you can connect to what you referred to as the Allan Taylor unit? MR WASSERMAN Mr Chairman, there is some confusion here about the Allan Taylor unit. An awful lot of MK, military MK activity was emanating from Allan Taylor unit. I am unable to always specifically state who was in which unit and where, but Pumeso Nxiweni was a prevalent Commander of Allan Taylor. MR VISSER Yes. And is it your experience also that some of the members of units, were active in more than one unit at any one time? MR WASSERMAN Correct Mr Chairman. MR VISSER Yes. CHAIRPERSON What is Allan Taylor? MR WASSERMAN Mr Chairman, it is the medical residential quarters for the University of Natal. It is like a hostel. CHAIRPERSON And I presume it would change from year to year, the people staying there? MR WASSERMAN Yes, that would be correct sir. CHAIRPERSON So you would have a constant turn over of people there? MR WASSERMAN Very much so sir. MR VISSER You were about to tell us that you went with Botha to the Allan Taylor residence, and who else? MR WASSERMAN Mr Du Preez. MR VISSER Du Preez, all right, and we know that you lifted, well, what did you find there, perhaps you should tell us in your own words? MR WASSERMAN We went into a store room and found a metal trunk, which we were familiar with, it was the kind of trunk that we were familiar with when it came to DLB's and we opened it and found some explosives inside that trunk. MR VISSER All right. Do you know what happened to those explosives which, to the contents of that DLB later? MR WASSERMAN Mr Chairman, they were in the control of Mr Botha, I don't know what happened with them after that. MR VISSER Yes. When you went back, or did you go back to the safe house at Verulam? MR WASSERMAN Correct Mr Chairman. MR VISSER What did you find when you arrived there? MR WASSERMAN Mr Taylor had already commenced to dig a grave outside. MR VISSER Did he commence to dig the grave, or had he dug the grave? MR WASSERMAN It was almost dug Mr Chairman. MR VISSER Yes, and where was Pumeso? MR WASSERMAN He was still, he was at the safe house Mr Chairman. MR VISSER At the safe house, or in the safe house? MR WASSERMAN In the safe house Mr Chairman. MR VISSER Was there anyone with him? MR WASSERMAN If I recall correctly, Mr Van der Westhuizen was still there Mr Chairman. MR VISSER All right, so what happened thereafter? MR WASSERMAN Mr Taylor sent Van der Westhuizen and Botha away. MR VISSER Away where? MR WASSERMAN I don't know Mr Chairman. MR VISSER Did they leave the premises? MR WASSERMAN They left the premises. MR VISSER All right, and you, Du Preez and Taylor remained behind? MR WASSERMAN Correct Mr Chairman. MR VISSER What happened then? MR WASSERMAN Du Preez and I then led Mr Nxiweni out. MR VISSER Didn't Taylor tell you anything? MR WASSERMAN Taylor said yes, we must eliminate Mr Nxiweni. MR VISSER All right, he gave you the order? MR WASSERMAN Correct sir. MR VISSER And you say you and Du Preez then led Mr Nxiweni out,yes? MR WASSERMAN To a point close to the grave. MR VISSER Yes. MR WASSERMAN Mr Du Preez then shot him a single shot in the head. MR VISSER Was Pumeso not rendered unconscious as had been the case with Ndwandwe? MR WASSERMAN Not on this occasion at all, no, he was not. MR VISSER Was Pumeso standing, sitting or laying when Du Preez shot him? MR WASSERMAN He was standing Mr Chairman. MR VISSER And where on his body, was he shot? MR WASSERMAN He was shot on the side of his head Mr Chairman. MR VISSER Which side? If you can't remember,just say so. MR WASSERMAN I can't remember automatically. MR VISSER Pardon? MR WASSERMAN But I can see on the papers, if you show me the paper, I can remember it. I don't know if it was on the left temple or the right temple. MR VISSER But he was shot in the temple? MR WASSERMAN Yes. MR VISSER Did he fall down? MR WASSERMAN Yes Mr Chairman. MR VISSER Did you take his clothes off? MR WASSERMAN Yes, we did, we took off his clothes. MR VISSER Did you also put lime over the body there? MR WASSERMAN Yes Mr Chairman. MR VISSER Refuse bags? MR WASSERMAN I don't recall refuse bags Mr Chairman. MR VISSER Was this during the day or the night? MR WASSERMAN This was night time. MR VISSER Night time, could you see what was transpiring? MR WASSERMAN Yes Mr Chairman, it was with night vision, night eyes, it was fine. MR VISSER Yes. Was Mr Pumeso blindfolded when he was led out of the house? MR WASSERMAN He was Mr Chairman. MR VISSER Was the weapon silenced or not? MR WASSERMAN It was a silenced weapon Mr Chairman. MR VISSER What happened to the clothes both of Ndwandwe as well as that of Pumeso? MR WASSERMAN We burnt the clothes on both occasions Mr Chairman. MR VISSER Both occasions? Mr Wasserman, you heard the evidence as to why Mr Pumeso was killed, why it was thought necessary to eliminate him. Do you agree with that evidence? MR WASSERMAN Mr Chairman, I concur with the evidence given to the Committee thus far. MR VISSER Were you also aware of the information regarding Mr Nxiweni, which was received from Ms Ndwandwe? MR WASSERMAN I was aware Mr Chairman. MR VISSER And were you convinced of the truth of what it was alleged that he was involved with as far as MK operations were concerned, in Natal? MR WASSERMAN Correct Mr Chairman. MR VISSER Now, going over to the incident of the kwaMashu unit, were you involved in that incident as well? MR WASSERMAN I was Mr Chairman. MR VISSER Can you please inform the Committee what your participation and role was? MR WASSERMAN Mr Chairman, my activities concur with that, with the evidence given by Mr Botha. The use of informer there, the capture of the members of the unit on the Avoca Bridge and the transporting thereof, to the safe house. MR VISSER Were you involved with those informers who penetrated and gained their confidence? MR WASSERMAN I was not Mr Chairman. MR VISSER Who was the one who was involved, whose informers were they? MR WASSERMAN I think Mr Botha was the handler, I think. MR VISSER I see. All right, the fact is that there was an arrest made for want of a better word, at the Avoca Bridge? MR WASSERMAN That is correct. MR VISSER Did you have knowledge of a report that they were under way to blow up the railway line at Phoenix? MR WASSERMAN Correct Mr Chairman. MR VISSER Railway station, all right, and what happened with them, after they were arrested? MR WASSERMAN They were taken through to the safe house at Verulam Mr Chairman. MR VISSER At Verulam? MR WASSERMAN Correct Mr Chairman. MR VISSER What transpired there Mr Wasserman? First of all, were they found in possession of anything? MR WASSERMAN Mr Chairman, on their arrest they had limpet mines with them. MR VISSER Limpet mines. Can you remember how many? MR WASSERMAN I recall three Mr Chairman. MR VISSER How many people did you arrest there? MR WASSERMAN Three Mr Chairman. MR VISSER Were they Mr Ndlovu, Mr Vilakazi and Mr Mtshali? MR WASSERMAN That is correct Mr Chairman. MR VISSER Did you know them before? MR WASSERMAN I didn't know them personally, I knew of them Mr Chairman. MR VISSER Did you know of their activities? MR WASSERMAN Correct Mr Chairman. MR VISSER And that it was alleged that they played a significant role in MK terror operations in Port Natal? MR WASSERMAN Correct sir. MR VISSER So, at the safe house at Verulam, anything that happened there? MR WASSERMAN Mr Chairman, we spoke to them, separated them and spoke to them. MR VISSER Were they assaulted? MR WASSERMAN Yes Mr Chairman. MR VISSER Did you assault anyone? MR WASSERMAN Yes, I did Mr Chairman. MR VISSER Whom did you assault? MR WASSERMAN I don't recall which of the three I assaulted Mr Chairman. MR VISSER One of the tree? MR WASSERMAN I spoke to all three on occasions Mr Chairman. MR VISSER Could you have assaulted all three of them? MR WASSERMAN It is possible Mr Chairman. MR VISSER What was the purpose of assaulting them? MR WASSERMAN Mr Chairman, we had information they were on their way to go and do a military operation and I wanted a little bit more facts, very quickly, so I beat them just to make sure that I was going to get what I needed, in time, Mr Chairman. MR VISSER How did you assault them? MR WASSERMAN I would have slapped and punched Mr Chairman. MR VISSER Slapped with the open hand? MR WASSERMAN And with my fists Mr Chairman. MR VISSER Where on the body of these persons? MR WASSERMAN It would have been to the face, the ears, the chest Mr Chairperson. MR VISSER And were they punched in the face as well? MR WASSERMAN Yes Mr Chairman. MR VISSER Did they give an explanation about the limpet mines which you found in their possession? MR WASSERMAN Well, I was informed that they were to be used on that evening's military operation Mr Chairman. MR VISSER Yes, but in your interrogation, did the kwaMashu 3 give an explanation of their possession of the three limpet mines, that you can remember? MR WASSERMAN Mr Chairman, not specifically to me was it made, however, I recall being informed that the military weaponry had come from Nxiweni. MR VISSER All right. CHAIRPERSON Did anybody say that they had been left with them, and they were going to throw them away? MR WASSERMAN Not to me Mr Chairman, I did hear that later though sir. MR VISSER All right, so what transpired thereafter? MR WASSERMAN After that, Mr Taylor arrived at the safe house Mr Chairman. MR VISSER Could you just speak up a little bit Mr Wasserman, I find it extremely difficult to hear you. MR WASSERMAN Mr Taylor arrived at the safe house Mr Chairman. MR VISSER Did he take over? MR WASSERMAN Yes. MR VISSER Did he give instructions? MR WASSERMAN Instructions were then given. MR VISSER What did he say? MR WASSERMAN These persons, this unit, was to be taken out to the scene where they were going to do their military activity. MR VISSER And eliminated? MR WASSERMAN And eliminated at the scene and it was to look as though they had had a mishap in the handling of their own explosives. MR VISSER Yes, and is that what happened? MR WASSERMAN That is what happened Mr Chairman. MR VISSER Did you go out to the scene? MR WASSERMAN I did Mr Chairman. MR VISSER Accompanied by? MR WASSERMAN Mr Taylor. MR VISSER Botha? MR WASSERMAN Mr Botha, myself and Mr Du Preez. MR VISSER All right, Mr Botha gave evidence to say that Taylor remained in the car with these three persons. I am sorry, just bear a moment with me Mr Chairman. I repeat, is it correct that when you arrived there, Mr Taylor remained in the car with the three persons? MR WASSERMAN It is correct Mr Chairperson. MR VISSER And you went somewhere? MR WASSERMAN Yes Mr Chairman. MR VISSER What did you go and do and where did you go? MR WASSERMAN Went to a point on the railway line not too far from Phoenix railway station Mr Chairman. MR VISSER Yes? MR WASSERMAN Du Preez, myself and Botha each had a member of this unit under our control. MR VISSER You escorted them to this point? MR WASSERMAN We escorted them to the point on the railway line Mr Chairman. MR VISSER And what happened there? MR WASSERMAN Well, at this point, each one of us had control of a member of the unit. MR VISSER Which one did you have control of or don't you remember? MR WASSERMAN I don't remember Mr Chairman. MR VISSER Yes, and? MR WASSERMAN At a sign from Mr Botha, we each shot the one that we were responsible for, once in the head Mr Chairman. MR VISSER Just how did this happen? First of all, was it during the day or at night? MR WASSERMAN No, it was dark, it was night time Mr Chairman. MR VISSER Dark? Were they standing up when they were shot? MR WASSERMAN No, they were on haunches Mr Chairman. MR VISSER Did someone or all of you, instruct them to sit down? MR WASSERMAN Yes Mr Chairman. MR VISSER And to do what? MR WASSERMAN I just said merely, you know, sit down Mr Chairman, I didn't tell them to do anything. MR VISSER Was it light enough so that you could see around you? MR WASSERMAN Yes, it was Mr Chairman. MR VISSER And you say there was a sign by Botha? MR WASSERMAN There was a nodding of the head Mr Chairman. MR VISSER Yes, and you then said that they were all shot, all three of them, with a single shot? MR WASSERMAN Initially all shot with a single shot, with I had a Scorpion with a silencer on Mr Chairman. MR VISSER And the others, did they use firearms with or without silencers? MR WASSERMAN All silenced weapons Mr Chairman. MR VISSER And after you had shot, the three of you had shot one shot into the heads of the victims, what happened then? MR WASSERMAN Mr Chairman, then they were placed upon... MR VISSER First of all, did you fire only one shot into the heads? MR WASSERMAN Oh no, Mr Chairman, I fired a second shot into my victim. MR VISSER And the others? MR WASSERMAN They also did, to my recollection. MR VISSER To your recollection? All right, they were then placed you said, just continue? MR WASSERMAN They were then placed on top of an explosive device, their explosive devices that they had when we arrested them that evening. MR VISSER What part of their bodies were placed on the explosive device, on the limpet mines? MR WASSERMAN The hands and head sir. MR VISSER And what was the purpose of that? MR WASSERMAN The explosion would render their identities, make them unidentifiable Mr Chairman. MR VISSER Yes, and the fact that they were shot in the head? MR WASSERMAN Correct. MR VISSER Are you an explosives expert? MR WASSERMAN No. MR VISSER Who prepared the limpet mines for the explosion? MR WASSERMAN It was done by Mr Du Preez sir. MR VISSER All right, and did you then leave? MR WASSERMAN Correct Mr Chairman. MR VISSER And did you hear the report of the limpet mines detonating? MR WASSERMAN That is correct Mr Chairman. MR VISSER Did you take part at all in their interrogation or should I rather ask this, was your interrogation of these three directed at attempting to persuade them to become informers on this occasion? MR WASSERMAN No Mr Chairman. MR VISSER Why was that? MR WASSERMAN Mr Chairman, I had no, I never ever thought that they would even think about it. MR VISSER Becoming informers? MR WASSERMAN About working with the State,yes. MR MALAN Sorry, just before you proceed, did you not say that you didn't know any one of them personally? MR WASSERMAN I didn't know any one of them personally, no. MR MALAN You simply knew of activities in which they were involved? MR WASSERMAN Correct. MR MALAN So why did you think that they would not be prepared to become informers? MR WASSERMAN I wasn't going to try and turn them Mr Chairman, it wasn't my area of responsibility in the first place. MR MALAN If I heard you correctly, you were saying that you never, ever thought that they would become informers? MR WASSERMAN In my brief association with the parties involved, there was no time Mr Chairman, to make an assessment on that. MR MALAN Was there no time, or was it not the objective? MR WASSERMAN It certainly wasn't my objective Mr Chairman, I don't know about other members. MR MALAN You never considered that, that is really what it comes to? MR WASSERMAN No sir. MR VISSER Yes. MR MALAN So you cannot say that you never, ever thought that they would become informers? MR WASSERMAN No. MR VISSER Well, on that point, what was your experience about more than one person being together and being able to be convinced to become informers? Was that easier or more difficult? MR WASSERMAN No, that is exactly the difficult starting point Mr Chairman. Should three persons be captured together, one will find that it is most difficult to try and turn or make informers of persons in that situation. ADV SIGODI Sorry, why didn't you charge them? Why were they not charged if they were found with the limpet mines? MR WASSERMAN I am unable to, the decision wouldn't have been mine, and I am unable to pass comment on that Mr Chairman. MR VISSER You followed orders? MR WASSERMAN Correct Mr Chairman. MR VISSER Yes. Apart from the evidence which you gave regarding political situation and the political objectives relating to this incident, did you also hear the evidence of Mr Botha? MR WASSERMAN I did Mr Chairman. MR VISSER And that of Mr Steyn? MR WASSERMAN I did Mr Steyn. MR VISSER And do you also make common cause with what they stated in that regard? MR WASSERMAN I do sir. MR VISSER Thank you Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER MR NOLTE Thank you Mr Chairman, I have no questions. NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR NOLTE CROSS-EXAMINATION BY ADV PRIOR Thank you, Prior on behalf of the Amnesty Committee, Evidence Leader, and also standing in for Mr Ngubane, on behalf of the victims. Mr Chairman, with your leave I will start with the kwaMashu 3 and then work backwards, those are freshest, if it will not inconvenience anyone. Mr Wasserman, what would have happened to you if you had said to Mr Botha, look, I don't want part of this, I don't want to follow this order? MR WASSERMAN I would imagine my days on the Intelligence gathering unit, might have been numbered. ADV PRIOR Do you think he would have sidelined you or had you transferred? MR WASSERMAN Yes Mr Chairman. ADV PRIOR In order to keep your employment with that unit, you decided to carry out this unlawful command? MR WASSERMAN Mr Chairman, once the command was evident to me, I also accepted it. ADV PRIOR So it wasn't just a question of following orders, you made common cause or made common purpose with what was going down there, what was happening? MR WASSERMAN That is correct sir. ADV PRIOR It wasn't so much the order that moved you, as the activity of your unit? You were killing operatives at that stage, that was the strategy, is that not so? MR WASSERMAN It was one finger on the fist Mr Chairman. ADV PRIOR Well, you had these people dead to sites, you had them with mini limpet mines, you could have charged them, they would have got at least six, seven, eight years possibly, taken out of circulation. MR WASSERMAN That is correct Mr Chairman. ADV PRIOR Would that have been quite a thing to put together, an investigation in the light of the acquittals of Bhila and Nxiweni in Ramlakan? MR WASSERMAN No, I don't think so Mr Chairman. ADV PRIOR It was simply expedient for your purposes or your unit's purposes, to eliminate them as you did? MR WASSERMAN No Mr Chairman, it was part of the fight against the military fight that was waging at the time, some could be handled by Courts, other actions just didn't seem so. ADV PRIOR And as decided by the Durban branch of the Security Police? MR WASSERMAN As decided by my command structure, at least I know that. MR VISSER Taylor at Botha? MR WASSERMAN At least I know of my command structure, yes sir. MR VISSER The evidence of Mr Forster and of Mr Botha, was that primarily the task or the object was always information gathering. Is that correct? MR WASSERMAN That is correct Mr Chairman. ADV PRIOR You have been asked this by a member of the panel. Can you think of any reason given your experience, background, in the field, why even an attempt was not made to try and turn these, the kwaMashu 3? MR WASSERMAN Mr Chairman, I don't know if the other parties did try to turn any of these personalities. In my presence it didn't occur. I don't know amongst themselves, if they tried. But also it gets to the point of when there are three picked up, if one agreed, the other two would be in the way, so that is the difficulty in this particular instance. ADV PRIOR Do you know how they were arrested or picked up, in other words what plan or what legend was created? MR WASSERMAN No, I was briefed to meet my unit, and we were to effect the capture on the Avoca Bridge Mr Chairman. ADV PRIOR Did it appear to you as if they were waiting for people that they knew? In other words a rendezvous? MR WASSERMAN That is correct Mr Chairperson. ADV PRIOR So they expected to meet comrades, was that part of the plan? MR WASSERMAN I don't know what they were told, whether it was to be comrades or finances or somebody, but they were to meet somebody. ADV PRIOR And those informers, were they present on that occasion, or not? MR WASSERMAN No Mr Chairman. ADV PRIOR And you said those informers were handled by Mr Botha? MR WASSERMAN I think that is correct Mr Chairman. ADV PRIOR You don't know if they are the same people in the Ndwandwe matter? MR WASSERMAN I don't know that Mr Chairman. ADV PRIOR You say you had a Scorpion pistol, who issued you that weapon? MR WASSERMAN It was the ANC's weapon Mr Chairman. ADV PRIOR Where did you, where did you obtain it from? MR WASSERMAN I obtained it from an ANC DLB that was lifted. ADV PRIOR Was that the one at Allan Taylor as you say? MR WASSERMAN No Mr Chairman. We lifted hundreds of DLB's, I can't recall which one this one came from. ADV PRIOR Did you simply keep those weapons under your control, that is the Security Branch, Durban, to use whenever you felt like it? MR WASSERMAN Correct Mr Chairman. ADV PRIOR So those weapons would not necessarily have been handed in through the official channels? MR WASSERMAN No sir. ADV PRIOR And the other persons, Botha and Du Preez, what were they armed with, similar weapons? MR WASSERMAN It was also Scorpions yes. ADV PRIOR Also silenced? MR WASSERMAN Also silenced, yes. ADV PRIOR If we can just go now to Pumeso Nxiweni. This Allan Taylor unit, you say all you can recall is that Nxiweni was the Overall Commander? MR WASSERMAN Round about this stage, yes Mr Chairman. ADV PRIOR You can't remember anybody else that possibly was a member? MR WASSERMAN Mr Chairman, I would be wrong to just add up names, I can't recall names right now. ADV PRIOR If it was suggested to you that the Allan Taylor unit broke up at the time of the trial or the arrest of the accused in the Ramlakan matter and was never regrouped, what would your comment be? MR WASSERMAN I would doubt that very much Mr Chairman. ADV PRIOR Although you don't have any information about specific persons who were actually members during 1987 and 1989? MR WASSERMAN No Mr Chairman, I can't recall that portion. ADV PRIOR And you worked closely with Mr Botha, did you not? MR WASSERMAN I did Mr Chairman. ADV PRIOR So it was virtually, it would have come to your attention had there been active members, other than Nxiweni involved at Allan Taylor? MR WASSERMAN No Mr Chairman, there definitely were active members, there definitely were, I just can't recall the names. ADV PRIOR During the arrests of the accused involved in the Ramlakan trial, was a DLB also discovered at Allan Taylor? MR WASSERMAN Mr Chairman, I actually can't recall specifically but there were weapons recovered, yes. ADV PRIOR And I understand standard procedure for example a container, that would be dusted for prints? MR WASSERMAN Correct. ADV PRIOR I mean that is written in the book? MR WASSERMAN Correct. ADV PRIOR On this occasion, after the arrest of Nxiweni, you discovered a DLB at the Allan Taylor residence, in a storage room? MR WASSERMAN That is correct. ADV PRIOR Was that dusted for prints? MR WASSERMAN No, not at all Mr Chairman. ADV PRIOR Against procedure? MR WASSERMAN Against procedure Mr Chairman. ADV PRIOR And we have gone through this with the other applicants, there was a golden opportunity to prosecute Nxiweni and have him removed out of circulation for a number of years, on the strength of the ammunition and explosives and that DLB? MR WASSERMAN Yes, I heard that evidence given. ADV PRIOR Can you maybe advance a reason why there was this departure from the normal practice? MR WASSERMAN No Mr Chairman, I have to concur with the evidence given previously by the other applicants. ADV PRIOR Unless the decision was already to eliminate Nxiweni, and not to bother about investigating any charges against him? That would seem to fit the scenario, would it not? MR WASSERMAN I am unaware of that particular setup as you are outlining it now Mr Chairman. ADV PRIOR It seems to my mind that Nxiweni was unlikely to be a person to be turned, I am talking about 1988? Would you agree? MR WASSERMAN I agree Mr Chairman. ADV PRIOR Can we then accept that the only reason why Nxiweni was then detained or arrested, was for purposes of his elimination? MR WASSERMAN I am unable to answer that Mr Chairman, my Commanders would have to answer that. ADV PRIOR Well, what was your sense, you worked very close to Botha? I mean surely he would have discussed with you what the strategy would be, would have been? MR WASSERMAN Sorry, there is too much noise from down here, I couldn't hear anything. ADV PRIOR I will repeat it. I just get a sense from replies that I have heard today and over the last couple of days, that everyone seemed to just have their own agenda. Surely Botha would have discussed with you what was to happen with Nxiweni, that there was a plan to have him arrested and once he was arrested or detained or abducted, whatever the position was, whether to prosecute him, to turn him or whatever? MR WASSERMAN Mr Chairman, when this gentleman was arrested, I wasn't even in this country. ADV PRIOR Where were you? MR WASSERMAN I was away, I was in Swaziland. So, I wasn't aware of this. ADV PRIOR All right. The weapon you used to kill Mr Nxiweni, what was that? Was it also a Scorpion? MR WASSERMAN I never shot Mr Nxiweni. ADV PRIOR Mr Du Preez shot him, you were together, acting together? MR WASSERMAN Scorpion. ADV PRIOR It was a Scorpion, and he was only shot once? MR WASSERMAN Yes Mr Chairman. ADV PRIOR It seems from the post mortem report at page 510, in bundle 4 Mr Chairman, one sees the entry wound on the left side of the skull, probably just behind the left ear and exiting on the right hand side. MR WASSERMAN I see that and concur with that Mr Chairman. ADV PRIOR Was he shot from very close range? MR WASSERMAN Yes Mr Chairman. ADV PRIOR Was it almost a contact shot or can't you say? MR WASSERMAN It was very, very close indeed Mr Chairman. ADV PRIOR What, a few inches or a few millimetres or a few centimetres? MR WASSERMAN Like that. ADV PRIOR He was laying, standing, seated? MR WASSERMAN He was standing Mr Chairman. ADV PRIOR Was lime also, I think you said that, all right, just one other aspect, you said Taylor had begun or had started to dig the grave for Nxiweni? MR WASSERMAN Correct. ADV PRIOR Himself? MR WASSERMAN Himself, yes Mr Chairman. ADV PRIOR That is what he said in his amnesty application. MR WASSERMAN I don't know what he said in his amnesty application. ADV PRIOR Was it unusual that he should have dug the grave? MR WASSERMAN No, not when you knew Mr Taylor, Mr Chairman, no. ADV PRIOR I want to deal with Fila Ndwandwe's incident. This was a, the foray into Swaziland was a well planned operation, was it not? MR WASSERMAN Correct Mr Chairman. ADV PRIOR Given the evidence we have heard today, General Steyn, et al Mr Botha over the last few days, would I be correct in understanding that the planning was such that the risk of things going wrong, was reduced to a very, very bare minimum? MR WASSERMAN Yes Mr Chairman, that is right. ADV PRIOR And obviously you people didn't want to spend any more time than you had to, in Swaziland, after the abduction of Ms Ndwandwe? MR WASSERMAN Correct Mr Chairman. ADV PRIOR And I would also like to believe that you would have planned the whole operation that you would have been able to return before the border post closed at ten o'clock on the same day? MR WASSERMAN We had planned that Mr Chairman. ADV PRIOR In other words, you left yourself sufficient time to get back to the border post, to exit Swaziland? MR WASSERMAN Correct sir. ADV PRIOR It would be dangerous to remain back in Swaziland, particularly if word had got out that she had been abducted by the Security Branch? MR WASSERMAN Well, it wouldn't have been ideal to be there. ADV PRIOR Precisely. Now, what time did you get to the border fence, that was where obviously you had got through a hole in the fence or whatever, the fence was cut or whatever it was, near Onverwacht. What time was that approximately? MR WASSERMAN Half past eight, 9 o'clock Mr Chairman. ADV PRIOR That seems to be Colonel Forster's recollection as well. Now from there to Culel, or to Lavumisa, which is on the Swazi side, how far is that approximately by vehicle? Less than 50 kilometres? MR WASSERMAN Yes Mr Chairman. ADV PRIOR About 30? MR WASSERMAN About 30 Mr Chairman. ADV PRIOR Would it have taken you more than an hour and a half to leave Onverwacht where you had dropped off Botha and Ndwandwe to get back to Lavumisa, to travel that distance to the border post? MR WASSERMAN Mr Chairman, it was very, very wet, the road was very muddy, that is why only the vehicle, the 4 x 4 could continue. To go back on that same broken road, the road was pretty mushed up from merely getting there. ADV PRIOR All right, just look at page 443 of bundle 4. You were in the vicinity where the road that looks like a dirt road, crosses the border, is that correct, the international line? MR WASSERMAN Correct. ADV PRIOR So would you have driven back to the crossroad with Hluti? MR WASSERMAN Correct. ADV PRIOR And then you would have turned to the south towards Lavumisa? MR WASSERMAN Well, that is the road that you are discussing now. ADV PRIOR You said you couldn't go along the dirt road, because it was too mushy? MR WASSERMAN Yes, that is right. ADV PRIOR Because of the weather? So which road did you go, which road did you follow? MR WASSERMAN We went the other way, heading to Hlangano. ADV PRIOR So you went further away from Onverwacht? MR WASSERMAN yes. ADV PRIOR Right, you went to Hlangano and then where, did you turn up towards where? MR WASSERMAN Then up to Hlatikulu, that is all tarred road now sir. Hlatikulu, and then up towards Manzini and then back the other way. ADV PRIOR So even though you had a 4 x 4 vehicle, you didn't want to travel the 30 kilometres to Culel, but went via a ...(indistinct) route? MR WASSERMAN It is not a ...(indistinct) route Mr Chairman,it is the right way to go. I did know the area, I was from there. ADV PRIOR Did you tell Mr Botha that you were going to take this route back and you wouldn't be able to get back before the border post closed? MR WASSERMAN We knew once we had done the handover, we were not going to get back in time for the border. ADV PRIOR Did you tell him, that is the question? MR WASSERMAN Yes, I told him. ADV PRIOR So he was aware that he wouldn't see you that evening? MR WASSERMAN He was aware. ADV PRIOR You say it was difficult, it would have been difficult to find out where Ms Ndwandwe lived. Mr Botha's evidence was that you had her address? MR WASSERMAN We had a couple of her addresses, but you couldn't tell where she would be on Monday night, or which one on Tuesday. ADV PRIOR At Onverwacht, did you take part in any interrogation of her? MR WASSERMAN No, I didn't Mr Chairman. ADV PRIOR What was her condition when you saw her at Onverwacht the next morning? MR WASSERMAN She was relaxed, she was fine Mr Chairman. ADV PRIOR Was she handcuffed? MR WASSERMAN I can't recall that, no, no. ADV PRIOR Would she have been, surely she would have been restrained in case she tried to escape? MR WASSERMAN Mr Chairman, at Onverwacht, at the border post? ADV PRIOR At the safe house, where she spent the evening with the others? MR WASSERMAN Mr Chairman, I can't recall if she was handcuffed. ADV PRIOR Was she shackled? MR WASSERMAN No Mr Chairman. ADV PRIOR With foot shackles? MR WASSERMAN No Mr Chairman. ADV PRIOR She never complained to you about anything? MR WASSERMAN No. ADV PRIOR She seemed calm? MR WASSERMAN She was calm Mr Chairman. ADV PRIOR She wasn't complaining about her predicament? MR WASSERMAN She didn't complain to me about her predicament at all Mr Chairman. ADV PRIOR Did you travel with her back to Pietermaritzburg, in the same vehicle that is? MR WASSERMAN I was in the same vehicle, but in the front with Mr Du Preez. ADV PRIOR And was she being interrogated in that vehicle or was not much said? MR WASSERMAN No, they were talking in the back of the vehicle Mr Chairman. ADV PRIOR Having a discussion? MR WASSERMAN Questions and answers, the vehicle is blocked off. The driver cannot see, the front crew cannot see into the back Mr Chairman. ADV PRIOR So you don't know what occurred in the back there, apart from that you heard a discussion of sorts? MR WASSERMAN That is correct Mr Chairman. ADV PRIOR And you can't tell us whether she gave any important information up or not, over that period? MR WASSERMAN I was briefed on that when we got to the Maritzburg farm. ADV PRIOR At Pietermaritzburg, how long did she spend at that safe house, sorry, on the farm? MR WASSERMAN She was there all the time Mr Chairman. ADV PRIOR Until what time, what time was she taken out, was it in the early evening to be killed? MR WASSERMAN It was already dark Mr Chairman, I would say 19H00, 20H00. ADV PRIOR And at that safe house, were you there most of the day? MR WASSERMAN I was, most of the day, yes. ADV PRIOR Did you interrogate her? MR WASSERMAN No Mr Chairman. ADV PRIOR Did Du Preez interrogate her? MR WASSERMAN No Mr Chairman. ADV PRIOR Well, who interrogated her? Do you know? MR WASSERMAN Mr Botha Mr Chairman, and Mr Steyn, Mr Chairman. ADV PRIOR Did you see that? MR WASSERMAN I looked in the room, Mr Chairman, yes, I saw them talking with her. ADV PRIOR From time to time, you would pop in? MR WASSERMAN That is exactly right Mr Chairman. ADV PRIOR For what purpose? MR WASSERMAN To hear how things were going, and to listen. ADV PRIOR Did you also pop in from time to time when Mr Labuschagne and Mr Verwey were interrogating her? MR WASSERMAN Yes, I did Mr Chairman. ADV PRIOR This must have been an intense interrogation? I mean you had a dangerous terrorist in your custody? MR WASSERMAN What are you trying to say Mr Chairman? ADV PRIOR Just answer the question, was it an intense interrogation? MR WASSERMAN No Mr Chairman. ADV PRIOR Was it a casual interrogation? MR WASSERMAN By the evening stage, I think it was casual to my mind, Mr Chairman. ADV PRIOR She had been interrogated virtually the whole of that day? MR WASSERMAN Well Mr Chairman, if that is an intensive interrogation to your mind, then that is how it is. ADV PRIOR And the decision had already been made at Onverwacht to eliminate her? You have heard that evidence? MR WASSERMAN I have heard the evidence. ADV PRIOR So what were you trying to, what were you trying to get out of her? Information I would imagine? MR WASSERMAN Well, I would imagine information Mr Chairman. ADV PRIOR And she wasn't giving the information, is that correct, because it took so long. You said the interrogation lasted until the virtually the evening? MR WASSERMAN I never had any interrogation to do with her Mr Chairman. ADV PRIOR Wasn't the case that she was a very hard nut to crack? MR WASSERMAN That is so Mr Chairman. ADV PRIOR And she remained defiant to the bitter end? MR WASSERMAN That is correct. ADV PRIOR And she refused to cooperate with the Security Branch? MR WASSERMAN In my presence, that is correct, yes. ADV PRIOR And I should imagine there was no difference, her being a female and being treated in a certain way, as Nxiweni was treated being a male person, he was punched and slapped on his body? MR WASSERMAN She wasn't punched or slapped on her body. ADV PRIOR Why not, what was the difference? MR WASSERMAN She just wasn't. ADV PRIOR Because she was a female, are you saying that there was some sense of chivalry shown to her? MR WASSERMAN You are saying that. ADV PRIOR No, I am trying to find out Mr Wasserman, because we can't, you are not prepared to volunteer anything. MR WASSERMAN Mr Chairman, she was not assaulted at all. ADV PRIOR She must have known at some stage, she was going to be executed, would you agree? MR WASSERMAN I am unable to say so Mr Chairman. ADV PRIOR Well, when you led her out of the house, was she blindfolded? MR WASSERMAN She was blindfolded and believed she was going to be collected and moved to another safe house. ADV PRIOR Is that what you told her? MR WASSERMAN Yes Mr Chairman. ADV PRIOR And what did she say? MR WASSERMAN She accepted that, she had no choice. ADV PRIOR And then you clubbed her on the head from behind? MR WASSERMAN That is correct. ADV PRIOR Did you strike her on the, can you maybe just tell us, because the post mortem showed a fracture and I just want to clarify that. Did you hit her on the back of the head, on the jaw or can't you remember? MR WASSERMAN Mr Chairman, no, it was on the right hand side of her head. MR VISSER Could my learned friend point the fracture out to us Mr Chairman. ADV PRIOR If my learned friend looks at page 452 on the right hand side, the diagram of the skull, there is reference to fracture lines, arrows. But in any event, I am not going to proceed with that, you indicated that the blow was of sufficient force to render her unconscious? MR WASSERMAN Yes sir. ADV PRIOR And it was just the one blow that you administered? MR WASSERMAN A single blow sir. ADV PRIOR And was she standing up when you administered that blow? MR WASSERMAN Yes, correct sir. ADV PRIOR And obviously she didn't know that you were going to strike her at the time that you administered that blow? MR WASSERMAN That is correct Mr Chairman. ADV PRIOR You then placed her in the grave, is that right? MR WASSERMAN Yes sir. ADV PRIOR And well, did you lay her down? In what position did you place her before you shot her? MR WASSERMAN Mr Chairman, she was virtually lying down in the grave, but in a slightly seated up position. ADV PRIOR I am coming to that, and you know why, you have seen the diagram of the bullet wound. MR WASSERMAN Correct. ADV PRIOR She was shot from the top of her head with the exit coming out at the roof of her mouth? That has been shown to you? MR WASSERMAN That is correct. ADV PRIOR Would you agree with that being the position? MR WASSERMAN Yes sir. ADV PRIOR And after you shot her, you then stripped the body, is that correct? MR WASSERMAN Correct sir. ADV PRIOR Thank you Mr Chairman, I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRIOR MR NOLTE No questions Mr Chairman. NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR NOLTE RE-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER Mr Chairman, two matters which I have neglected to put very briefly with your, it is not really re-examination, but if you will allow me just to put them very briefly. The firearms you used in these incidents, in each occasion, were firearms of which the possession was not lawful in the hands of whoever the policemen was that used them? MR WASSERMAN That is so sir. MR VISSER And when you entered the Allan Taylor residence on the campus of the University of Natal, was that a legal entry or an illegal entry? MR WASSERMAN It was illegally done, sir. MR VISSER Illegally. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON Why, what was illegal about it? MR WASSERMAN Mr Chairman, the entry to the premises was illegally gained. CHAIRPERSON You were going to get some explosives that you thought might be used for acts of terrorism? MR WASSERMAN That is correct Mr Chairman, but we didn't want anybody else to see us gathering or collecting, making a collection of these weapons. CHAIRPERSON What was illegal about it though, I can understand that you didn't have time to get a search warrant, so you proceeded to go and search, how was it illegal? MR WASSERMAN I am not too sure about that point Mr Chairman, we made entry into I suppose the storeroom without permission of anybody. MR MALAN Do you need the permission of the owner when you want to seize illegal weapons? MR WASSERMAN No sir. FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY ADV PRIOR Mr Chairman, I apologise, may I just raise the matter of Pindele Mfeti, I didn't, I forgot to ask that question, but possibly through the Committee may I just ask around that. It is of importance to the victims, he was a relative of Nxiweni's family, thank you. CHAIRPERSON How long will you be do you think Mr Prior? ADV PRIOR It is virtually one question, possibly two Mr Chairman. Mr Wasserman if you may be able to assist, and I pitch this question at the level of helping the victims, come to terms with what happened to their loved ones. You have obviously followed the questioning of Mr Botha closely, and we know that one Pindele Mfeti who was also a student, he was a fairly elderly student, he was bout 40, he had a child in matric at the time, he was studying I believe law, and he was the cousin of Pumeso Nxiweni. He disappeared on the 25th of April 1987. The family are concerned that possibly in their endeavours to find Nxiweni, shortly after the acquittal in the Ramlakan case, that possibly Mfeti was mistaken for Nxiweni, and he was abducted and dealt with. Are you able in any way, to give up any information that may assist the families? MR WASSERMAN Mr Chairman, I don't even know that name. I have never even heard that name. ADV PRIOR Thank you Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV PRIOR MR VISSER Thank you, yes, Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER ADV SIGODI You say that after you shot Portia Ndwandwe as well as Pumeso Nxiweni, you covered the body with lime. Where did you get this lime? MR WASSERMAN It would have been bought at one or so, hardware store. I can't recall where it was bought Mr Chairman. ADV SIGODI When was it bought? MR WASSERMAN Mr Chairman, no, I don't know why was it bought. ADV SIGODI Why was it bought? MR WASSERMAN It would have been purchased to cover the body, to stop an odour coming through the soil. ADV SIGODI But from your evidence it seems that the lime was already there when you shot and killed these people? Did you have lime stocked in that safe house for these kinds of actions? MR WASSERMAN No Mr Chairman, I was given the lime Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Why by? MR WASSERMAN I was given the lime Mr Chairman, by Mr Taylor. ADV SIGODI When did he get this lime? MR WASSERMAN I don't know when he got the lime Mr Chairman. ADV SIGODI So in other words, you don't know where this lime came from? MR WASSERMAN I don't know when he got it or where he got it from Mr Chairman. ADV SIGODI Another thing which I want to clarify in my mind, is how many people in the Durban Security Branch belonged to the, I will call it the inner circle, the few people who were responsible for these killings as far as you know? MR WASSERMAN Mr Chairman, as far as I know, it would only be the applicants that are before the Committee. ADV SIGODI Why were you particularly chosen for this type of work, what is it that you had done, were you given any training for killing or what by the Security Branch? MR WASSERMAN Mr Chairman, no, I am as military trained as anybody else and I was just in the Umkhonto weSizwe section. ADV SIGODI The reason I am asking you is because you say that you were not in the country when Mr Nxiweni was arrested. MR WASSERMAN On that occasion I was debriefing informers in Swaziland Mr Chairman. ADV SIGODI But why would you be the one to be chosen to kill him, to be given the orders that you must kill him? MR WASSERMAN I have no idea on how to even answer that Mr Chairman. ADV SIGODI Thank you Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Before my colleague asks questions, did Mr Taylor give you this lime when he told you to eliminate, did he say well, take them outside, eliminate them and sprinkle lime on them? MR WASSERMAN He knew of the lime, these occasions here, he actually handed me the packet of lime. CHAIRPERSON Did he tell you what to do with it? MR WASSERMAN Yes Mr Chairman, he told me to spread it. CHAIRPERSON On top of the bodies, after you undressed them? MR WASSERMAN Yes sir. MR MALAN I wanted to ask this same question, but just from a different angle, clearly the lime wasn't purchased specifically for these events, because the lime was there, it was evening, decisions were made at night. You have no knowledge of anyone going out to buy it specifically for the burying of specific victims that your applications relate to? MR WASSERMAN No Mr Chairman, I am not aware of that. MR MALAN And the lime was not only available in Pietermaritzburg near Elandskop, it was also available on other farms? MR WASSERMAN It was used on the other farm as well Mr Chairman. MR MALAN You were involved on more than one occasion, with spreading lime? MR WASSERMAN Yes Mr Chairman, they are in the application. MR MALAN Yes. And did you form any opinion as to the availability of the lime? MR WASSERMAN Personally no, Mr Chairman. MR MALAN You can't tell us whether you think even at this stage, whether lime was kept for such occasions or whether it was specifically bought? MR WASSERMAN No Mr Chairman, I never ever saw lime laying around, I was just handed it on the occasion. I never saw packets of lime. MR MALAN And you have no idea where Taylor got the lime from? MR WASSERMAN No sir. CHAIRPERSON How big were the packets that you were given? You weren't given a bag of lime, you were given a small packet, not a 50 kg pocket? MR WASSERMAN No Mr Chairman, a small packet which you would tear the top off and sprinkle. MR MALAN Pre-packed pack? MR WASSERMAN No, a small packet sir. MR MALAN Yes, but was it pre-packed by the distributor, the manufacturer or whoever would have distributed it? MR WASSERMAN Yes Mr Chairman. It was in, it looked like the commercial packaging. MR MALAN Commercial packaging? MR WASSERMAN Yes sir. MR MALAN The other issue that I just want to further pursue is, you gave evidence last week about the elimination of Bhila and your simply being present at the time, that at some later stage you became aware that he was to be eliminated? Is that correct? MR WASSERMAN Mr Taylor told me at a later stage, yes. MR MALAN In this, it really relates to the same question, a group of people involved, I find it extremely difficult to look at the applicants as you have referred to them, as the only people within the so-called inner circle for want of a better word, that you never discussed these incidents with each other, that you wouldn't ask questions, even as to where was the person killed, how was he killed, was he buried or not, where was he buried. You heard the evidence, and this is the line of evidence, that you never spoke of it? MR WASSERMAN Mr Chairman, that is correct. In this kind of job, nobody ever would speak out, it would stay where it was, that is where it was. There was a code of ethics that one wouldn't ask and one wouldn't say. MR MALAN Not even amongst co-perpetrators, people planning together, deciding together to kill a person? You wouldn't ask questions of each other? MR WASSERMAN No Mr Chairman, if that portion was yours to do, then that was done, and it was left at that Mr Chairman. It was left at that. MR MALAN Was there ever such an instruction not to ask questions, not to talk? Did that code of ethic if one could call it such, simply develop out of the blue, did it just dawn upon you or was it agreed, did Taylor or someone tell you listen, no one asks questions, no one speaks? MR WASSERMAN Mr Chairman, I am unable if there was a person specifically there, but it was very evident amongst us all that such a code was there, but nobody specifically ever told me that is how it is. It just comes in the Special Branch type of activity. MR MALAN So, as far as Port Natal is concerned, your involvement with Bhila, was that an induction in a sense, an initiation with the group or not so? MR WASSERMAN No, not so Mr Chairman. MR MALAN When did you become aware of this code of ethics of not speaking and not asking and not reporting? MR WASSERMAN I already knew of that in my previous service Mr Chairman. MR MALAN Which was where? MR WASSERMAN In the Rhodesian setup Mr Chairman. MR MALAN So you had similar experiences there, is that what you are telling us? MR WASSERMAN No, not at all Mr Chairman, but in war and in operations, one learns that this ethic is there. MR MALAN Not even to discuss with people who went out on the same mission with you? MR WASSERMAN Mr Chairman, the details weren't discussed, the result would have been. MR MALAN Thank you. MR VISSER May I add something Mr Chairman. May I add on the question of the lime. CHAIRPERSON Well, I think we were going to talk about the same thing, page 444? MR VISSER Yes. CHAIRPERSON You haven't been told yet, when the body was exhumed, a yellow plastic bag, dolomite agricultural lime, 10 kg was around both feet. Would that be about the size of the bags that you were given? MR WASSERMAN That is the size Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. We will adjourn now until 9 o'clock tomorrow morning. MR VISSER Can this witness be excused Mr Chairman? As it pleases you Mr Chairman. WITNESS EXCUSED COMMITTEE ADJOURNS