amntrans AMNESTY HEARING 1998-11-17 DURBAN 7 SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ NDWANDWE, NXIWENI AND KWAMASHU 3 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=52970&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1998/98110919_dbn_981117dbn.htm MR VISSER Thank you Mr Chairman, may I call Mr Du Preez to give evidence. SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER Are you Salmon Johannes Gerhardus du Preez? MR DU PREEZ Yes, that is correct. MR VISSER And you apply for amnesty in the case of Ms Ndwandwe as well as Pumeso Nxiweni and the kwaMashu 3? MR DU PREEZ That is correct Mr Chairperson. MR VISSER You filed an application in terms of the Act? MR DU PREEZ Yes. MR VISSER And that application appears in volume 2, on page 24 and following. Is that correct? MR DU PREEZ Yes, that is correct. MR VISSER In your application on page 26, you admitted that your memory about what happened, is vague and that you do not have any documentation or any other information where you could refresh your memory with, and my question is that during this period in which you signed your application, you did receive information from your co-applicants that refreshed your memory concerning the details of this incident? MR DU PREEZ Yes, that is correct. MR VISSER You then on page 28 at the bottom of the page, referred to the amnesty applications of Steyn, Botha and Forster and you confirmed it in where it is applicable to you, is that correct? MR DU PREEZ I do not have a page 28 in front of me Mr Chairperson. That is correct Mr Chairperson. MR VISSER You mentioned this in your amnesty application, or about the amnesty application of Ndwandwe, is that correct? MR DU PREEZ Yes, Mr Chairperson. MR VISSER Now concerning Nxiweni, on page 29 you said that you and Sergeant Wasserman eliminated him and buried him in a sugar plantation. We know that Steyn was not involved in this? MR DU PREEZ Yes, that is as far as Nxiweni. MR VISSER And then the kwaMashu 3, Steyn was again not involved? MR DU PREEZ Yes, that is correct. MR VISSER Was it your intention to say that in that incident or to which you referred to in Botha's statement, that you would like this to be added to your application? MR DU PREEZ Yes, that is correct. MR VISSER On the 29th of November 1953 you were born in Pretoria, and you did your schooling or you completed your schooling in 1972 in Durban? MR DU PREEZ Yes, that is correct. MR VISSER Your father was a member of the South African Police? MR DU PREEZ Yes, that is correct. MR VISSER And you, yourself, grew up in we can describe it as a police culture? MR DU PREEZ Yes, that is correct. MR VISSER What were your parents' political and moral viewpoints? What were your parents like? MR DU PREEZ They were very conservative and they were both members of the National Party. MR VISSER Were they also conservative? MR DU PREEZ Yes, they were conservative. MR VISSER As members of the National Party, and the party to which your parents belonged to, did this influence your viewpoints from childhood? MR DU PREEZ Yes, certainly so. MR VISSER And did you see anything wrong in the policy of apartheid that was upheld by the National Party? MR DU PREEZ No Mr Chairperson, I supported this. MR VISSER Directly after school, you joined the South African Police in 1973? MR DU PREEZ Yes, that is correct Mr Chairperson. MR VISSER Have you got anything to say about the unrest during that time? MR DU PREEZ I was a member of the Special Branch and I also served in the 1976 unrests. MR VISSER During that time, what was said to you concerning what your tasks would entail as a member of the Special Force? MR DU PREEZ When I became or joined the Special Task Force, we had to be willing to kill if it was necessary. MR VISSER Yes, this now specifically refer to what we in general consider as the political struggle? MR DU PREEZ Yes, that is correct Mr Chairperson. MR MALAN I am sorry Mr Visser, I do not know if I heard you correctly, did you say that you must be willing to kill other people if it is necessary? MR DU PREEZ Yes, to kill people if it is necessary. MR MALAN Was this a general statement or was it said what the circumstances would be? It is a very broad statement, isn't it, when would it be necessary, did they tell you? MR DU PREEZ It was not specified no, but it was part of the selection, that if you are willing to kill any person, you would not have been selected in this process. MR MALAN In other words if you were a pacifist? MR DU PREEZ Correct. MR MALAN But if you were an ordinary person who in an emergency situation, would kill, then you would succeed? MR DU PREEZ Yes, that is correct. MR MALAN It had nothing to do with illegal activities, you did not read it like that? MR DU PREEZ No. MR MALAN Thank you. MR VISSER Just to explain this better, this was part of the psychometric test that you did, to find out if you would be suitable for this Special Task Force? MR DU PREEZ Yes, that is correct. MR VISSER In your capacity as a member of this Task Force, you came face to face with the realities of the internal warfare that was going on at that stage? MR DU PREEZ Yes, that is correct. During that time I also served in the previous South West and I was also applied there as more than just a soldier, we were an Anti-terrorist movement. MR VISSER Were you in contact? MR DU PREEZ Yes. MR VISSER Can you say how many contacts you had? Not in numbers, but was it a few? MR DU PREEZ Yes, it was in more than 10 contacts where various terrorists were killed and also of our own members. MR VISSER Where there was firing at both sides? MR DU PREEZ Yes, that is correct. MR VISSER You refer or I would like to refer the Committee to specifically volume 2, the Exhibit E47 that appeared before the Amnesty Committee, in this case in volume 2, that is the statement of the Generals. MR DU PREEZ Yes, that is correct. MR VISSER We are not going to read this, but what is your comment on the situation that is explained in paragraph 13 and 14 and 16 concerning your own situation? Can you identify yourself with this? MR DU PREEZ Yes. MR VISSER In 1979 you were placed with the Security Branch in Port Natal? MR DU PREEZ Yes, that is correct. MR VISSER In Durban? MR DU PREEZ Yes, that is correct. CHAIRPERSON Are you referring to page 142? MR VISSER Page 161 Mr chairman, of volume 2, the involvement of the South African Police in both the former Rhodesia and former South West Africa in a military support role, to the Rhodesian Army and the South African Defence Force, necessitated training them in purely military tactics and techniques. In neither of these situations, they were expected to act as civil police. Every contact between them and their opponents, led to a bloody shootout, with the result that ordinary civil police functions fell by the wayside. The ordinary policemen drawn from the ranks of the police, from the whole country involved in these guerilla warfare and counter-insurgency activities, where he in fact had to kill or be killed, became progressively more accustomed to this type of conflict and the ways, means and methods utilised in combat the enemy and it goes on Mr Chairman. It is those ideas that Mr Du Preez says. In 1979 you were transferred to Port Natal. In what section, or I will lead you in this, originally you served in the Church Section. Was this at the desk of the ANC or what desk was this? MR DU PREEZ No, there was a Church Section concerning church matters. MR VISSER It was completely independent? MR DU PREEZ Yes. MR VISSER In the Security Branch or in the ordinary branch? MR DU PREEZ No, it was in the Security Branch. MR VISSER And in 1981 you were transferred to the Terrorist Section? MR DU PREEZ Yes, that is correct. MR VISSER Under Colonel Andy Taylor? Did you receive any special training? MR DU PREEZ In the investigation of terrorism? MR VISSER Are you an explosives expert? MR DU PREEZ Yes, that is correct. MR VISSER And at that stage, did you investigate certain incidents? MR DU PREEZ Yes, that is correct. MR VISSER Can you give a number of the amount of incidents that you visited or investigated? MR DU PREEZ Mr Chairperson, in that time in Durban, I investigated more than 100 scenes of explosions. MR VISSER And were people killed in those incidents? MR DU PREEZ Yes, that is correct. CHAIRPERSON What time was it? MR DU PREEZ It was from 1981, I would say up to 1990 and up to around 1994. MR VISSER You also became aware of the death of one of your colleagues, is that correct? MR DU PREEZ Yes, various of my colleagues died during the period when I was in the Special Branch. Four of my colleagues died and or were killed by ANC terrorists. MR VISSER Amongst others? MR DU PREEZ Colonel Welman, Zukela, Mike Mbede and Radjo. MR VISSER Yes. Is it so that in 1994, May 1994, you were found medically unfit for the task of a policeman? MR DU PREEZ Yes, that is correct. MR VISSER And at the May of 1995, you were discharged with the rank of Superintendent? MR DU PREEZ That is correct yes. MR VISSER What was the diagnosis of your state? MR DU PREEZ It was post traumatic stress. MR VISSER What would you say led to this state? MR DU PREEZ I think it must have been the politics, the things that happened in the police and the situation in the police itself. MR VISSER You are now referring to the violence, etc? MR DU PREEZ Yes, that is correct. MR VISSER As a member of the Security Branch, did you feel that you were busy with normal, legal actions or what was your position? MR DU PREEZ Mr Chairperson, from 1981 in Durban with the beginning of the bomb explosions, we felt that we were more in a war than in ordinary service as police officers. MR VISSER Did you feel that you became more and more involved in a political struggle, rather than just crime prevention? MR DU PREEZ Yes, that is correct. MR VISSER From time to time suggestions were made that members of the Security Branch killed terrorists, MK members indiscriminately, those that they could catch? MR DU PREEZ Yes. No, it is not true, if it would have been the case, I would have been involved in hundreds of incidents or cases, then this amnesty application would not have been just about a few people, but about hundreds of them. MR VISSER Would you say that in the incidents where it did occur, would be the exception? MR DU PREEZ Yes, that is true. MR VISSER Mr Du Preez, if we can continue and get to the point of the political background in the broader terms and we have listened to the evidence of Mr Botha and Steyn and Forster, do you agree with the general political background? MR DU PREEZ Yes, I do agree with it. MR VISSER Do you also agree with the political views with which these actions were executed? MR DU PREEZ Yes, that is correct. MR VISSER Were you involved in the Ramlakan case? MR DU PREEZ Yes, that is correct. MR VISSER In what capacity? MR DU PREEZ I was one of the Investigators, I also took down statements from people in this incident. MR VISSER You also heard the evidence of Mr Botha in broader terms, about what the Ramlakan case was about. MR DU PREEZ Yes. MR VISSER Do you agree with this? MR DU PREEZ Yes. MR VISSER Concerning Ndwandwe, she was discussed or from Mr Botha, she was involved in the Ramlakan case? MR DU PREEZ Yes, that is correct. MR VISSER At one stage, we know in 1987 she left the country and Mr Botha said according to the information, or your information that you received, she received training and she later went back to Swaziland. Would that correlate with information that you had? MR DU PREEZ Yes. MR VISSER And from Swaziland she operated as the acting Commander of MK operations within the Republic of South Africa, and more specifically in the area of Port Natal? MR DU PREEZ Yes, that is correct. CHAIRPERSON Did you know that she was pregnant during 1987? MR DU PREEZ No Mr Chairperson. I knew that she had a child later on. MR VISSER I must admit Mr Chairman, I wasn't aware of that information myself. CHAIRPERSON Newspaper cuttings that we have been given says she had a one year old child, when she was abducted, which would have meant that she was pregnant in 1987? MR VISSER Probably. CHAIRPERSON The child would have been born in about October. MR VISSER Thank you Mr Chairman. In any case, you were part of the abduction out of Swaziland? MR DU PREEZ Yes, that is correct. MR VISSER Were you familiar with the planning and the purpose of this operation beforehand? MR DU PREEZ Yes, that is correct. MR VISSER Can you just tell us when you became aware of this operation and what your knowledge was concerning this? MR DU PREEZ Colonel Botha informed me, I am not sure what his rank was at that stage, it could have been Captain. MR VISSER Just refer to him as Botha. MR DU PREEZ Well Botha informed me that an operation was planned to abduct Ndwandwe out of Swaziland. He discussed this with me, and we discussed the finer details about how we were going to do this. MR VISSER And among others, was there made use of two people? MR DU PREEZ Yes, that is correct. MR VISSER If I ask you who these people were, I am not asking you their names, I am asking what their status were of these two people. MR DU PREEZ They were informants. MR VISSER For how long were they informants of the Security Branch before this incident? MR DU PREEZ That is difficult to say, but I can guess it could have been a year, I am not sure of the time span. MR VISSER Were they askaris? MR DU PREEZ No, negative. MR VISSER Were they applied and did you receive information from them in other cases apart from that of Ndwandwe? MR DU PREEZ Yes, that is correct. MR VISSER You then heard as you have just said, what the purpose of this operation was, and you then accompanied them? MR DU PREEZ Yes, that is correct. MR VISSER We know who the people were who went with, we do not have to cover that again. MR MALAN Before you continue Mr Visser, the purpose of the operation was the abduction, but you said that you discussed further details with Botha, or he discussed it with you. Did he tell you what the purpose of the abduction was? MR DU PREEZ The purpose of the abduction was then to recruit her as an informant. MR MALAN Did he talk to you or discuss with you about the possibility of success to recruit her as an informant? MR DU PREEZ It was discussed Mr Chairperson. I cannot remember the finer details. MR MALAN Did you think that the chances are good that she will be able to be recruited as an informant for the police? MR DU PREEZ Yes, I thought that it was possible. MR MALAN No I am asking you if you think that it would be good, not impossible? MR DU PREEZ Yes, I thought the chances were good. MR MALAN In other words the chances were better that she would be recruited? MR DU PREEZ Yes, that is correct. MR MALAN Did Botha tell you this? MR DU PREEZ I think that was my own opinion. MR MALAN At no stage he told you that it would be difficult to recruit her? MR DU PREEZ I do not think in a percentage, I thought that the chances would be good to recruit her. MR MALAN You have heard his evidence, and if I can summarise it correctly, he said that in his mind she must be abducted, that she will be eliminated, except if she could be recruited. Didn't he put it to you like that? MR DU PREEZ Yes, that possibility was there. MR MALAN No sir, it is not a possibility. That is the framework in which Botha began this operation. That is what he said to us. Not that it is possible that she will be eliminated, but that it would be a possibility and that she could - I think he used the expression, that she could save her own life by becoming an informant. MR DU PREEZ Mr Chairperson, I knew that if she will not cooperate as an informant, she will be eliminated. MR MALAN But the probability was not shared with you, is that correct? MR DU PREEZ Not that I can remember of. MR MALAN Thank you. MR VISSER Your personal view was that it would be worthwhile to abduct her from Swaziland, because there is a possibility that she could have been recruited as an informant? MR DU PREEZ Yes, that is correct. MR VISSER If you did not foresee that possibility and you just wanted to eliminate her, what would you have done then? MR DU PREEZ Then we would have eliminated her in Swaziland. MR MALAN Can I just ask you on what basis did you make this conclusion, was there something specific? MR DU PREEZ Before this incident, various other people or persons were recruited in this manner. MR MALAN But there was nothing specific in Ms Ndwandwe's actions that made you think that there is a chance now to recruit her, it was just because of other operations? MR DU PREEZ Yes, that is correct. CHAIRPERSON If she had been eliminated in Swaziland, wouldn't there be a danger of a political scandal? MR DU PREEZ Mr Chairperson, not necessarily. The ANC eliminated many of their own members in Swaziland, so if she were to be eliminated in Swaziland, fingers could be pointed to the ANC themselves. CHAIRPERSON But fingers may well be pointed at the South African Security Forces, might they not? MR DU PREEZ Certainly so, yes. CHAIRPERSON Particularly if a fairly large group in three different vehicles had crossed the Swazi border that morning? MR DU PREEZ If it was about the elimination, we would not have used so many personnel or vehicles. MR VISSER Thank you Mr Chairman. It is also true, is it not, and we know this from the facts, that Ndwandwe during the Ramlakan case, did indeed under Section 29 detention, apparently offer her cooperation? MR DU PREEZ Yes, that is correct, she also made a Section 29 statement. MR VISSER In either event, as history has taught us, your feeling about this was incorrect, but let us first move into Swaziland. Is it correct that you moved in three vehicles, Taylor's Nissan, the kombi and a bakkie? MR DU PREEZ Yes, that is correct. MR VISSER You have listened to the evidence which was given by Wasserman and he has stated that you and him were basically together. MR DU PREEZ Yes, that is correct. MR VISSER Do you agree with his breakdown of how it happened, where you went, first to Onverwacht, then up to Manzini, that you made observation in front of the bakkie, after you had given the bakkie to the two informers on the way to Manzini and that Ndwandwe climbed into the bakkie and that the bakkie moved behind you, you moved ahead. The vehicle of Taylor, with Taylor, Botha and Forster inside, was driving behind the bakkie, is that correct? MR DU PREEZ Yes, that is correct. MR VISSER Is it also correct that outside Manzini, Ms Ndwandwe was transferred from the bakkie to the kombi? MR DU PREEZ Yes, that is correct. MR VISSER And that you then travelled in the direction of Culel? MR DU PREEZ That is correct. MR VISSER And that you turned then on the Hluti road? MR DU PREEZ Yes, that is correct. MR VISSER And then you stopped after you had travelled that road for a short while, and Botha and Ndwandwe took shelter at the back of the bakkie, under a piece of canvass? MR DU PREEZ Yes, that is correct. MR VISSER And you and Wasserman were in front of the bakkie? MR DU PREEZ Yes, that is correct. MR VISSER Can you recall that it rained on that evening, as we have heard? MR DU PREEZ Yes, that is correct. We drove the bakkie in fourth wheel drive. MR VISSER It was a 4 x 4? MR DU PREEZ Yes, that is correct. MR VISSER When you were in Manzini, can you remember what time you were there, what time of the day? MR DU PREEZ We were in Manzini at dusk. MR VISSER In October that would have been approximately what time? Was it October? MR DU PREEZ Approximately 6 o'clock, half past six. MR VISSER Yes. We know that the minibus was driven by Forster away from the border post, and the bakkie was driven out... MR DU PREEZ No, Wasserman and I drove the bakkie. MR VISSER I beg your pardon, I meant that Botha and Taylor were in Taylor's vehicle and that is how they moved out at the Culel border post? MR DU PREEZ That is correct. MR VISSER Is it also your recollection of the facts, that the two informers were dropped off and that they crossed the fence illegally to the other side? MR DU PREEZ Yes, I assume that that is how it happened. MR VISSER We know that there was a point at the fence, where there was a rendezvous that evening, where Botha and Ndwandwe climbed through the fence to the people who waited on the other side, that would be Steyn, Forster, Botha and Taylor. Can you remember that? MR DU PREEZ Yes, that is correct. MR VISSER What time in the evening was that approximately? MR DU PREEZ I cannot remember. All that I can remember is the time that we dropped them off and on the way back, we saw that there wouldn't be enough time to go through the gate. MR VISSER Which gate? MR DU PREEZ The Culel border post. MR VISSER And what did you do then? MR DU PREEZ Wasserman and I turned away to Shlangana and drove around that way. MR VISSER Is that in Wasserman's words, to get to a tar road as soon as possible? MR DU PREEZ Yes, that is correct. MR VISSER Did you burgle a house that night? MR DU PREEZ No. MR VISSER Are you aware of a burglary and money which was stolen from a house? MR DU PREEZ I heard about that from newspaper reports which I read later. MR VISSER Did you or Wasserman have anything to do with that? MR DU PREEZ No, not at all. MR VISSER Can you remember at what time you arrived back in Manzini that evening? MR DU PREEZ Mr Chairperson, it was early morning. We arrived in Manzini, we slept in the bakkie for approximately an hour or so, and then we departed back to the Culel border post, in order to cross at about 7 o'clock in the morning. MR VISSER When you arrived in Manzini, you were then too late to sleep in a hotel? MR DU PREEZ Yes, that is correct. MR VISSER The following morning ... (intervention) MR MALAN I beg your pardon Mr Visser, sorry to interrupt you once again, you would have known that you would arrive in Manzini at such a late hour, why did you drive to Manzini, why didn't you just sleep somewhere near the border post? MR DU PREEZ Chairperson, we had planned to go to Manzini, and as a result of the road, we didn't think that we were going to be driving for such a long time, and seeing as we were on our way, we decided to continue. MR MALAN Well, seeing as you were on the tar road, you could have predicted your time of arrival at Manzini, that would have been easier? MR DU PREEZ That is correct, but we became stuck quite a number of times on the road that we were taking, and we decided not to take that road back. MR VISSER That is the road which we are referring to as the Hluti road? MR DU PREEZ That is correct. MR VISSER And Wasserman has told the Committee that that was very muddy? MR DU PREEZ That is correct, yes. MR VISSER The following morning you left and you arrived at the Onverwacht police house? MR DU PREEZ That is correct. MR VISSER An you remember approximately what time that was? MR DU PREEZ It was approximately 7 o'clock when we went through the border post. MR VISSER And did you find Ms Ndwandwe there along with Forster, Steyn and Taylor and Botha? MR DU PREEZ Yes, that is correct. MR VISSER Did you participate in her interrogation? MR DU PREEZ No Mr Chairperson, Ms Ndwandwe was put in the kombi and taken back to Pietermaritzburg, that was shortly after our arrival, we hadn't been there for very long. MR VISSER Did you enter Swaziland with a legal passport? MR DU PREEZ No, it was a false passport. MR VISSER You then departed for Pietermaritzburg, is which vehicle. ADV SIGODI Sorry, just on that point, do you still remember the name under which you left? MR VISSER The name of the passport, the name under which the passport was issued, can you remember that? MR DU PREEZ I think it was Du Toit. MR MALAN How many false passports did you have? MR DU PREEZ I only had the one. MR MALAN Do you think it was Du Toit or do you know it was Du Toit? MR DU PREEZ It was Du Toit, I am not entirely certain about the name. MR VISSER In which vehicle did you journey to Pietermaritzburg? MR DU PREEZ I drove the kombi. MR VISSER And were Botha and Ndwandwe in the back of the kombi? MR DU PREEZ Yes, that is correct. MR VISSER Could you hear what the contents of their discussion was? MR DU PREEZ No Chairperson, there was a partition which divided the driver from the back of the kombi. MR VISSER This kombi, what was it usually used for? MR DU PREEZ It was an observation vehicle. MR VISSER But Visagie changed it, we heard that. MR DU PREEZ That is correct. MR VISSER What were the changes in principle which he brought about? MR DU PREEZ There were large periscopes and other such apparatus with which to undertake observation, they were mounted into the kombi so that one could make observations of what was outside. MR VISSER And that was removed? MR DU PREEZ Yes, that was removed. MR VISSER The tables and that? MR DU PREEZ Yes, that as well. MR VISSER You then arrived in Pietermaritzburg. MR DU PREEZ That is correct. MR VISSER Did you participate in any interrogation of Ndwandwe while you were there? MR DU PREEZ I did ask her some questions. MR VISSER Did you assault her? MR DU PREEZ At no stage. MR VISSER What was Ndwandwe's attitude regarding the questions which were put to her, did she provide any answers or did she refuse to answer? MR DU PREEZ She gave me answers and regarding the persons in terms of whom I made requests, she gave me the names. MR VISSER Mr Forster yesterday indicated that she was proud of her activities. What was your impression? MR DU PREEZ That was not my impression. The questions which I put to her, were answered very concisely and I never obtained that impression during my interrogation of her. MR VISSER At a certain stage, Ms Ndwandwe was killed in the district of Elandskop. Did you have anything to do with that? MR DU PREEZ That is correct. MR VISSER Can you tell us how it occurred? MR MALAN I beg your pardon, one more interruption while we are on this point. You said that she answered very concisely. Were you trying to see whether or not she would be suitable for recruitment? MR DU PREEZ I did not consider it at that stage, it did not come up in my mind as a consideration. MR MALAN Was that not the primary reason for the abduction, isn't that what you told us? MR DU PREEZ Mr Chairperson, at that stage of my interrogation of her, I think it had already been decided that she would be killed. MR MALAN Who told you that? MR DU PREEZ I deduced that from Mr Botha and Mr Taylor and Mr Steyn's discussion. MR MALAN Which discussion are you referring to? MR DU PREEZ It was decided, when it was decided that she would not be recruited, it became generally known that she would not be applied as an informer and at that stage Taylor gave Wasserman and I the order to dig the grave. MR MALAN Mr Du Preez, I asked you how you found out and you initially told me that it was from the discussion of three of your colleagues, and later you said that it was generally known. Who told you that the decision had been taken to kill her, where did this come from? MR DU PREEZ I can't recall Mr Chairperson, it is something which was left unsaid. MR MALAN May I put it to you like this, initially you very clearly told us that you thought that the chances were favourable that she could be an informer. Your first contact was the interrogation at Pietermaritzburg, direct contact with her in the form of a discussion? MR DU PREEZ Yes, that is correct. MR MALAN You said at that stage you knew she was going to be killed. MR DU PREEZ The stage during which I questioned Ndwandwe, was after Botha had completed his interrogation of her. MR MALAN Were you present during Botha's interrogation? MR DU PREEZ No. MR MALAN On what grounds did you know that she was not suitable? Or in another sense, why didn't you try to formulate your own opinion? MR DU PREEZ Mr Chairperson, I think Mr Botha was primarily responsible or would have been primarily responsible for the recruitment of this person. It was clear that he had not succeeded. MR MALAN Why? Why was it clear? MR DU PREEZ Through Ms Ndwandwe's attitude. MR MALAN What was her attitude? MR DU PREEZ Mr Chairperson, I was not involved with her interrogation until that point. MR MALAN I beg your pardon, perhaps you are misunderstanding me. You have told us that it was clear that Botha had not been successful. Then I asked you upon which grounds, and you said on the grounds of her attitude. Now I would like to know on what grounds it was clear to you that he had not succeeded? MR DU PREEZ From Botha's attitude. The fact that Botha said that she cannot be recruited. MR MALAN When did Botha say this to you? MR DU PREEZ I can't recall that Botha specifically said this to me, I deduced this from discussions between Botha, Taylor and Steyn, that she would not be recruited. MR MALAN Where did you hear those discussions? MR DU PREEZ At the house. MR MALAN Were you present during the discussions? MR DU PREEZ Yes, I was present at some of the discussions. Mr Chairperson, these things were not said in one sentence. MR MALAN Thank you. MR VISSER Mr Du Preez, let us just discuss this. I think that you and Commissioner Malan are on two different wave lengths, let me just put it to you like this. You were interrogating her, for what reason, for what objective? MR DU PREEZ I had a dossier which was out of date, and I was looking for names of people who had committed acts of terrorism. MR VISSER By the way, now that you mention it, did you obtain any information from her which was of assistance to you? MR DU PREEZ Yes, that is correct. MR VISSER Can you recall today exactly what that was? MR DU PREEZ It was about the Radjo case, that was one aspect of the information. MR VISSER Okay. Did you interrogate her with the purpose of recruiting her as an informer? MR DU PREEZ Negative. MR VISSER Whose duty was that? MR DU PREEZ That was Botha's duty. MR VISSER And you said that afterwards there was a discussion between Botha, Steyn and Taylor. MR DU PREEZ That is correct Chairperson. MR VISSER Which you heard? MR DU PREEZ That is correct Chairperson. MR VISSER And you deduced from that discussion that it was Botha's view that she was not recruitable? MR DU PREEZ Yes, that is correct. MR VISSER Later you received an order? MR DU PREEZ That is correct. MR VISSER From whom? MR DU PREEZ From Taylor. MR VISSER And what did this order entail? MR DU PREEZ It was that Wasserman and I were to dig a grave and that we were to eliminate Ndwandwe. MR VISSER Did you then carry out this order? MR DU PREEZ Yes, that is correct. MR VISSER Before we arrived at this point, were there any other people on this farm, on that particular day who interrogated Ndwandwe? MR DU PREEZ That is correct Chairperson. MR VISSER Was that Labuschagne and Verwey? MR DU PREEZ I can only remember Labuschagne. MR VISSER Sorry? MR DU PREEZ I can only remember Labuschagne. MR VISSER Were you present during their interrogation, Labuschagne's interrogation of Ndwandwe? MR DU PREEZ No Mr Chairperson. MR VISSER Now we are back at the point where we were a few moments ago, where you were to go and dig the grave. What happened next? MR DU PREEZ We dug the grave. Wasserman and I told Ndwandwe told her that we were going to take her away to another place. MR VISSER Did you tell her where to or did you just tell her that you were taking her elsewhere? MR DU PREEZ We simply told her that she was being transferred. MR VISSER Was she blindfolded? MR DU PREEZ Yes, she was blindfolded and I led her out of the house. MR VISSER Yes? MR DU PREEZ Wasserman then hit her unconscious with a wooden stick. We carried her to the grave. We placed her next to the grave and Wasserman shot her once in the head. We then removed her clothing, and placed her inside the grave. MR VISSER Just before you continue, let us just take a step back. Wasserman said something about her being placed half way into the grave, something to that effect? MR DU PREEZ Yes, she was placed in the grave in a skew fashion, her feet were in the grave, but her upper body still emerged. She was standing half upright in the grave, if I remember correctly. MR VISSER The sides of the grave, were they diagonal or straight down? MR DU PREEZ I think they were diagonal. MR VISSER And you say that Wasserman then shot her and her clothing was removed and she was then placed inside the grave. MR DU PREEZ Yes, that is correct. MR VISSER Can you remember anything about plastic bags? MR DU PREEZ Chairperson, Wasserman sprinkled lime over her, there was a bag with lime inside, and we began to close the grave. MR VISSER Before you did that, did you also place the lime bag in the grave with her, the bag in which the lime had come? MR DU PREEZ Yes, that is correct. MR VISSER Where did this lime come from, can you perhaps remember? MR DU PREEZ No, I don't know from where it came. MR VISSER But it was present after Taylor had given you the order to carry out the elimination and the burial? MR DU PREEZ Yes, that is correct. MR MALAN I beg your pardon, where did you see the lime for the first time, at the grave? MR DU PREEZ At the grave, yes. MR MALAN You didn't see Wasserman carrying the lime to the grave? MR DU PREEZ No, I can't remember that. MR MALAN And you said that you and Wasserman dug the grave? MR DU PREEZ Yes, that is correct. MR MALAN And you went together to go and fetch Ms Ndwandwe? MR DU PREEZ Yes, that is correct. MR MALAN Any explanation or suspicion as to how the lime arrived at the grave? MR DU PREEZ I cannot say. MR VISSER Well, one of you must have taken it there? MR MALAN No, why Mr Visser? Why should one of them have taken it? MR VISSER Well, it had to have arrived there in some manner. MR MALAN Yes, but there were other men there. CHAIRPERSON And there were how many other men there? MR VISSER That is where my question is leading to Mr Chairman. Were any of the others persons that you recall today, near the grave? MR DU PREEZ No, at the time of the elimination it was only me and Wasserman, Taylor and Forster who were on the farm. The other persons had all left. MR VISSER Where were Forster and Taylor? MR DU PREEZ They were inside the house. MR VISSER And they weren't by the grave? MR DU PREEZ No. MR VISSER You said that the lime was sprinkled over her, that the bag was left there and then soil was filled into the grave? MR DU PREEZ That is correct. MR VISSER Was anything else placed over the body? MR DU PREEZ Refuse bags were thrown over her. MR VISSER The contents thereof? MR DU PREEZ The contents of refuse bags, they were in plastic bags. MR VISSER What was the reason for that? MR DU PREEZ So that if anybody were to dig around there, it would look like a rubbish dump. ADV SIGODI Sorry, did you know why you had to sprinkle lime on the body? MR DU PREEZ The purpose for that was to remove any odour for wild animals who might start digging around there. ADV SIGODI Who told you that? MR DU PREEZ I think that it was Mr Taylor who arranged it. ADV SIGODI When did he tell you that? MR DU PREEZ I can't specifically recall whether or not I asked him about the lime, but after the lime had been sprinkled, it became known to me that it would divert odour. ADV SIGODI Did you get to know about this before sprinkling the lime or after you had sprinkled it, that it would divert the odour? MR DU PREEZ I think afterwards. I don't know whether or not it really would have worked that way. But I did this because Taylor said so. MR MALAN You didn't see the lime there, you didn't see anybody bringing the lime, and you didn't see Wasserman bringing it in. You assumed that it was him, because the others were never at the grave, didn't you ask him why he had brought this lime to the graveside? MR DU PREEZ Chairperson, as I have already said, the lime which was sprinkled was to remove any odour. MR MALAN Yes, but you said that you heard this from Mr Taylor and you think that it was afterwards. In afterwards what you are saying is that when you sprinkled it, you already knew that it was to remove odours. MR DU PREEZ That is correct, but I don't know who put the bag there, it could have been Wasserman or Taylor or perhaps even Forster still. MR VISSER When would Taylor have told you about lime which removes odour if this was before this occurrence, because you didn't know that the lime was going to be there, yet you found it there? MR DU PREEZ That is correct. MR MALAN Then, why would Taylor have discussed lime with you, was there a previous incident in which you had been involved? MR DU PREEZ No Mr Chairperson. MR MALAN You cannot explain the chronological order to us, you can just tell us that the lime was there, and secondly you didn't know then that it would remove odour? MR DU PREEZ Shortly afterwards, I knew. MR MALAN But you didn't ask Wasserman why the lime was there? MR DU PREEZ I can't remember having asked Wasserman. MR MALAN Thank you Mr Visser. MR VISSER Mr Du Preez, there was indeed a previous incident, however you were not involved in that incident, that was the incident of Deon Cele is that correct? MR DU PREEZ I know about that incident. MR VISSER But Wasserman indeed had been involved in that case. MR DU PREEZ Yes, I heard that. CHAIRPERSON Was Kubeka buried? MR DU PREEZ Negative Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON The first matter in which he applied for amnesty for. MR VISSER Perhaps you should just state the case of Tombi Kubeka, in 1987, was that a case of elimination? MR DU PREEZ Negative. MR VISSER What happened there, just briefly? MR DU PREEZ It was the disposal of a body after she had died of natural causes. MR VISSER Natural causes then, so it is the disguising of a body? MR DU PREEZ That is correct. MR VISSER After you had filled in the grave, you all left? MR DU PREEZ That is correct. MR VISSER Just to move back a little, with regard to information received, you have heard Botha and the evidence which he gave regarding the information which Ndwandwe provided to him, at Onverwacht and also during the journey to Pietermaritzburg and also possibly thereafter, it doesn't really matter where, but it was with regard to certain incidents which she referred and regarding which she had given information as to who had been responsible for those incidents. Did you listen to that evidence? MR DU PREEZ Yes, that is correct. MR VISSER And is that in accordance with your recollection at that stage? MR DU PREEZ Yes, that is correct. MR VISSER When Taylor told you that you were to dig the grave and eliminate Ndwandwe, did you regard this as an order? MR DU PREEZ Yes Chairperson. MR VISSER Was it an order with which you agreed? MR DU PREEZ That is correct. MR VISSER And you have already stated that you also agree with the evidence of Botha regarding his motivation or the political objective with regard to this action? MR DU PREEZ Yes, that is correct. MR VISSER And that was chiefly about Ndwandwe's activities from Swaziland as manifested in units in the Port Natal area? MR DU PREEZ Yes, that is correct. MR VISSER Can we then move over to Pumeso Nxiweni? Can you just tell us what your share was in that case? MR DU PREEZ In that case, Mr Botha had an informer who arranged a meeting with Nxiweni and we arrested him at the rendezvous point. MR VISSER That was on the 4th of November 1988 as we understand it? MR DU PREEZ Yes, that is correct. MR VISSER And it was Botha, yourself and Van der Westhuizen? MR DU PREEZ Yes, that is correct. We then took him to a safe house. MR VISSER We know that it was at the Kingspark stadium? MR DU PREEZ Yes, that is correct. MR VISSER You took him to a safe house and then what happened? MR DU PREEZ That is where we interrogated him. MR VISSER With what purpose? MR DU PREEZ In order to obtain information from him with regard to terrorist activities in Durban. MR VISSER Weapon stockpiling points. MR VISSER yes, weapon stockpiling points. MR VISSER Did you interrogate him? MR DU PREEZ Yes, I did. MR VISSER Did you assault him? MR DU PREEZ He was assaulted, I assaulted him. MR VISSER In what way? MR DU PREEZ It was slapping and punching with a balled fist. MR VISSER Where? MR DU PREEZ In the face and on the body. MR VISSER And in the face? As a result of the interrogation, did any information emerge? MR DU PREEZ Yes, information did emerge. MR VISSER We heard from Botha that he, Nxiweni, apparently provided information that on the previous evening an act of terrorism had taken place at the Rosborough station, and it was committed by members of the unit under his command? MR DU PREEZ That is correct. MR VISSER And on that very same evening, the 5th of November, another explosion was to occur. Was that the 4th of November, I am sorry, I beg your pardon. Sorry, it is the 4th of November, another explosion was to take place? MR DU PREEZ Yes, that is correct. MR VISSER Where would that be? MR DU PREEZ That would be at Montclair, on the railway line at Montclair. MR VISSER What happened as a result of this information? MR DU PREEZ Van der Westhuizen and I drove to the place where he said the bomb would have been placed and on the way there, we received a report that the bomb had indeed exploded and when we arrived on the scene, we did see that it had exploded. MR VISSER Were there any police on the scene? MR DU PREEZ Yes, they were already on the scene. MR VISSER Pumeso was held overnight at the safe house,is that correct? MR DU PREEZ Yes. MR VISSER Did you remain there or did you go home? MR DU PREEZ I remained there. MR VISSER Was any attempt made to recruit him as an informer? MR DU PREEZ No Mr Chairperson. MR VISSER From your side, that is what I mean? MR DU PREEZ No, there was no attempt from my side to recruit him. MR VISSER During further interrogation, more information came to light with regard to armed vehicles? MR DU PREEZ Yes, that is correct. He indicated to us that there was a trunk full of arms and ammunition in the suitcase room at the Allan Taylor residence. MR VISSER Did you go along to the Allan Taylor residence in order to fetch these arms? MR DU PREEZ That is correct. MR VISSER How did you obtain access to this room? MR DU PREEZ We climbed over the fence, and we went into the room. MR VISSER You opened the door and went in or did you break in? MR DU PREEZ I cannot remember whether the door had been forced open or simply opened. MR VISSER Did you find anything? MR DU PREEZ We found a trunk which fitted the description which Nxiweni had given us, and we found arms inside, we took the trunk and brought it back to the safe house. MR VISSER Was it your impression that Nxiweni was recruitable as an informer, judging by what you had observed from him? MR DU PREEZ No. MR VISSER What else happened? MR MALAN I beg your pardon Mr Visser, while you are discussing this matter, was it ever said to you that it was a consideration to recruit him as an informer? MR DU PREEZ No, Mr Chairperson. MR VISSER We have heard from Botha that in during the afternoon of 5 November, Taylor and Wasserman arrived at the safe house, and that they were informed there by him about Nxiweni's arrest. Do you know anything about that? MR DU PREEZ That is correct. MR VISSER Was that after their arrival that you went to the Allan Taylor residence to lift the weapons? MR DU PREEZ Yes, that is correct. MR VISSER Upon your arrival back at the safe house, what happened then? CHAIRPERSON Can I disturb you for one moment? This safe house, was this the safe house at Verulam? MR DU PREEZ That is correct. MR VISSER You have arrived back at the safe house at Verulam, what happened next? MR DU PREEZ Colonel Taylor told Botha and Van der Westhuizen that they could go home and he began to dig a grave. MR VISSER That is who, who began to dig a grave? MR DU PREEZ Taylor, he started digging a grave. MR VISSER He didn't ask anybody else to do it, he did it himself? MR DU PREEZ That is correct, yes. MR VISSER Can you provide any reason why he did this? MR DU PREEZ No Mr Chairperson. MR MALAN I beg your pardon, nobody offered to assist him? MR DU PREEZ Wasserman and I helped him later with the digging of the grave. When we arrived there, Taylor had already begun to dig the grave. MR MALAN And when you started helping him, did he withdraw? Surely it wouldn't have been all three of you digging the grave at the same time? MR DU PREEZ He was there throughout the time that the grave was being dug. We took turns. MR VISSER During this stage of the grave being dug, were Botha and Van der Westhuizen still there, or had they already left? MR DU PREEZ I can't remember. MR VISSER Now you have dug the grave, what happened next? MR DU PREEZ Taylor told Wasserman and I to eliminate Nxiweni. He and I took Nxiweni out of the house. MR VISSER Did you say anything to him? MR DU PREEZ We told him the same thing, we told him that we were taking him to another place. MR VISSER Was that during day time or night time? MR DU PREEZ It was at night. MR VISSER Yes? MR DU PREEZ He was blindfolded, and we walked with him until the grave. There I shot him in the head with a Scorpion pistol. MR VISSER Who shot him? MR DU PREEZ I shot him. MR VISSER Was this pistol legally in your possession? MR DU PREEZ No Mr Chairperson, it was a Russian Scorpion pistol. MR VISSER Where did he stand, or did he sit or lay down when you shot him? MR DU PREEZ He was standing. MR VISSER Where were you standing when you shot him? MR DU PREEZ I stood right next to him. MR VISSER On his left or right side? MR DU PREEZ On his left side. MR VISSER Was the pistol held near or far from his body when you shot him against his head, so indeed he was shot through the head? MR DU PREEZ That is correct. MR VISSER Was he dead? MR DU PREEZ He died instantaneously. He fell down, we removed his clothing and placed him in the hole and closed the hole. MR VISSER Was he buried in the same fashion as Ndwandwe? MR DU PREEZ That is correct Chairperson. MR VISSER Did you also sprinkle lime over him, can you remember anything about that? MR DU PREEZ I cannot remember it. MR VISSER Can you remember if rubbish was also thrown into the grave in that case? MR DU PREEZ No, we didn't put any rubbish into the grave. MR VISSER Mr Chairman, I notice that it is 1 o'clock, I am just about finished with this incident, if I may proceed a little while longer. What happened with the clothing? I think you already said that his clothing had been removed? MR DU PREEZ That is correct, we burnt the clothing afterwards. MR VISSER And then you departed? MR DU PREEZ That is correct. MR VISSER Just with regard to this aspect, Mr Taylor says in his amnesty application, that Nxiweni went along to point out the DLB at the Allan Taylor residence. Is this in accordance with your recollection? MR DU PREEZ I cannot recall that. MR VISSER And he also says that Botha was present when Pumeso was killed, can you remember that? MR DU PREEZ No one else was there. By the time we killed Pumeso, Taylor had left the farm. MR VISSER Mr Chairman, that concludes this incident, thank you. MR MALAN Just one final question, or regarding your final answer, you said at the time of your shooting Nxiweni, Taylor was no longer on the farm. MR DU PREEZ That is correct. MR MALAN How much time elapsed between digging the grave and the elimination? What did you do after you dug the grave? MR DU PREEZ I think Taylor told us after the grave had been dug, that the decision was taken to eliminate him, and when we went to fetch Nxiweni to eliminate him, Taylor drove away. That is when we went in to go and fetch him, that is when Taylor left. MR MALAN Are you certain of that? MR DU PREEZ That is how I remember that. MR MALAN Why would he have departed, he helped to dig the grave completely, he stayed there, you took turns, then you go and fetch Nxiweni 60 metres away from where he is about to be buried, and during that time, Botha or Taylor at least left. MR DU PREEZ Nxiweni was not fetched directly after the grave had been dug. After the grave had been completed, as far as I can remember, we first cleaned up. We wouldn't have walked in to the room where Nxiweni was with soiled feet and tell him that we were taking him away. MR MALAN And you also wouldn't have left the farm without cleaning yourselves up, so in other words you would have cleaned up twice? MR DU PREEZ That is correct. MR MALAN Did you do that? MR DU PREEZ Yes. MR MALAN Can you remember that? MR DU PREEZ I can remember that. MR MALAN Why do you say that you wouldn't have, your choice of words looks like construction rather than recollection. MR DU PREEZ Chairperson, I think it may be a construction, but there is no way that one would have gone to the person or left the farm with soil on one's shoes. I can't remember specifically that I had a bath before I left the farm. MR MALAN Wouldn't Taylor have taken a bath before leaving the farm? If he were to work with these constructions, because he helped to dig the grave? MR DU PREEZ That is correct. MR MALAN So you would all go and clean up first, and then take Nxiweni out for the elimination? MR DU PREEZ Yes, that is correct. MR MALAN While you were walking to the grave with him, Taylor climbed into his car? MR DU PREEZ What I can remember is that Taylor was not on the farm, that he had already left when we eliminated Nxiweni. MR VISSER Mr Chairman, just in that regard, if you will allow me just a last reference. In volume 2, page 63, the words that stand here coming from Taylor, are in my submission significant. He says, I will read the last bit of that paragraph at page 63 Mr Chairman, he says I cannot remember today who actually pulled the trigger. It wasn't me, but I admit I was part of the decision to kill him. Then Mr Chairman, he says, I do recall that myself and Colonel Botha were definitely present. It may be that Sam Du Preez and Laurie Wasserman were also present, but I cannot remember whether any other members were indeed present when this incident took place. We have the two people here that were actually instrumental in the elimination. Mr Taylor couldn't remember whether they were there, with respect Mr Chairman. I just point this out to say that the evidence of Mr Taylor must be regarded in the light of what Mr Wasserman said, and Mr Botha said about his recollection at the time when he completed these documents. I just wanted to make that point at this stage. There are conflicts Mr Chairman, clearly, there are conflicts in recollection. MR MALAN Mr Visser, I just don't understand the argument with regard to Taylor's absence or departure. In order to case light on this issue, because in terms of the evidence we cannot rely on the fact that Taylor had departed. When he made this statement, he was in a condition which meant that he could not really stand in for that statement. But you say Mr Du Preez, that your recollection is that Taylor departed before Nxiweni was eliminated? MR DU PREEZ Yes, that is correct. CHAIRPERSON We will now adjourn until 2 o'clock. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ (still under oath) EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER (continued) Mr Du Preez, we've got now the third and last incident, and that is the case which was referred to as the kwaMashu unit to which these people belonged to. After the elimination of Pumeso, we have heard that members of the Security Branch succeeded with the help of informers to make contact with the members of the kwaMashu unit, are you aware of this? MR DU PREEZ Yes, I am. MR VISSER Apparently these informants took them into their confidence and agreed with them, that a meeting will take place, it seems to me, at a certain place? MR DU PREEZ That is correct, yes. MR VISSER On the 17th of November 1988, a report was received from informants and members of the Security Branch then went to the Avoca Bridge between Durban and kwaMashu, is that correct? MR DU PREEZ Yes, that is correct. MR VISSER Were you one of the members of that team? MR DU PREEZ Yes, it was myself, Botha and Wasserman. MR VISSER You found people there or met up with people there. How many were they? MR DU PREEZ Three. MR VISSER Was it the three that I have just mentioned? MR DU PREEZ Yes, that is correct. MR VISSER How many people did you expect? MR DU PREEZ We expected four. MR VISSER Were they then arrested or whatever you want to call it? MR DU PREEZ Yes, that is correct, we took them to the house of safety. MR VISSER Which house is this? MR DU PREEZ It is the house is Verulam where Taylor waited for us. MR VISSER Were they then interrogated there? MR DU PREEZ Yes, that is correct. MR VISSER Did they have anything with them? MR DU PREEZ Yes, they had a carrier bag with limpet mines. MR VISSER How many? MR DU PREEZ Three. MR VISSER Limpet mines? MR DU PREEZ Yes. MR VISSER During interrogation, did they give an explanation for the reason why they had these mines? MR DU PREEZ Yes, they did give an explanation. MR VISSER What was that? MR DU PREEZ That someone dropped it off at their homes, and that they were going to get rid of it at some place. MR VISSER Did they tell what happened to this person? MR DU PREEZ This person then left to Swaziland. MR VISSER You knew better, because of the informants? MR DU PREEZ Yes, that is correct. MR VISSER And in the interrogation, what you heard - what happened afterwards? MR DU PREEZ We interrogated the three persons to who the other member was. MR VISSER Did you then try to find out if they had any other weapons? MR DU PREEZ Yes. MR VISSER Were there any results? MR DU PREEZ They gave us the name of the fourth person who went to Swaziland. MR VISSER Can you remember that name today? MR DU PREEZ It was Naya Ngema. MR VISSER Did you attack them, assault them? MR DU PREEZ Yes, that is correct. MR VISSER In the same manner that you did, or was it different, to Nxiweni? MR DU PREEZ Yes, it was the same way that we assaulted them. We slapped them and hit them with a fist. MR MALAN Sorry, just before you get to the assault. Did you say that they told you that the fourth person who did not arrive there, went to Swaziland? MR DU PREEZ Yes, that is correct. With later interrogation, it was not during the arrest. MR MALAN Did they say to you that the fourth person was the person who gave them the limpet mines or that it was an unknown person? MR DU PREEZ Their initial lie was that it would have been another person, and not the person who went to Swaziland and that they did not know him, but it was a lie, and we knew that. MR MALAN How did you know this? MR DU PREEZ We knew who the group was and who the members of this group was. MR MALAN How did you know that Ngema did not go to Swaziland if he was then the fourth person? MR DU PREEZ I am sorry, I do not understand your question. MR MALAN When your evidence was led, you said that they told you that the fourth person went to Swaziland? MR DU PREEZ Mr Chairperson, when they made that allegation, they said that it was a person who went to Swaziland, who left the weapons with them. At that stage they did not say it was the fourth person of their group. MR MALAN Thank you, it is more clear now. Excuse me, did you ask any questions with regards to the absence of this fourth person? MR DU PREEZ We expected four to arrive at the scene. MR MALAN And you knew that it would be Ngema? MR DU PREEZ Yes, that is correct. MR MALAN Did you ask them questions about this? MR DU PREEZ Yes. MR MALAN And what did they answer? MR DU PREEZ They admitted at a later stage that it was Ngema and they said that he went to Swaziland. MR MALAN In other words he went to Swaziland as well as the person who left the weapons with them, went to Swaziland, was that their story? MR DU PREEZ No Mr Chairperson. MR MALAN Well, then I do not understand who went to Swaziland? MR DU PREEZ Ngema went to Swaziland. MR MALAN And the person who left the limpet mines with them? MR DU PREEZ It would also be Ngema? MR MALAN Did they say so? MR DU PREEZ Initially they said, or they said that they did not know Ngema. MR MALAN Did you know that he did not go to Swaziland, is that what you are saying to us? MR DU PREEZ We did not know at that stage that he went to Swaziland. MR MALAN Well, then I do not understand Mr Visser's question that you knew better. Maybe Mr Visser can just explain this to me. MR VISSER Commissioner, it was about the fact that they told a story that an unknown person left the limpet mines with them, and that they were on the way to get rid of them. That is what they knew better, they knew that they were on their way to go and place the limpet mines as a group or a unit. MR MALAN Thank you Mr Visser. MR VISSER They firstly referred to an unknown person, and that this person went to Swaziland if I understand you correctly? MR DU PREEZ Yes, that is correct. MR VISSER And afterwards it seems that the fourth person was Ngema and that he possibly also went to Swaziland? MR DU PREEZ Yes, that he indeed went to Swaziland and that he was part of their group. MR VISSER But you did not know at that stage if he did go to Swaziland? MR DU PREEZ No, we did not know that. MR VISSER During the questioning, did they agree that they would show where the target would be? MR DU PREEZ Yes, that is correct. MR VISSER And the members who were present there, the four, Taylor, Botha, yourself and Wasserman, did you then take a decision? MR DU PREEZ Yes, that is correct Mr Chairperson. MR VISSER What was the decision? MR DU PREEZ We decided that we are going to eliminate them at the place or the spot that they wanted to target. MR VISSER What are you going to do then? MR DU PREEZ We will then get rid of the bodies with explosives. MR VISSER The people then went to the railway line in the Phoenix area? MR DU PREEZ That is correct. MR VISSER What happened there at the scene? MR DU PREEZ We took the explosives out of the car. MR MALAN I wonder Mr Visser, if you can just ask him, he has heard the evidence, if maybe he can add anything else. MR VISSER It would be in order yes. The evidence from here on would be the same as Mr Wasserman's. I would just like to deal with it short. The three people were then taken to a place at the railway where with the nod of Botha, they were killed or shot by your group. After the first shot was fired, do you know if any other shots were fired after that? MR DU PREEZ I fired two shots at the person who was in front of me. MR VISSER Afterwards, did you then prime the limpet mines? MR DU PREEZ That is correct yes. MR VISSER And the bodies were then placed on the limpet mines, with the hands and heads on them and you then left there and afterwards you heard the explosion of the limpet mines going off? MR DU PREEZ That is correct yes. MR VISSER Did you agree with the decision that they had to be eliminated? MR DU PREEZ Yes, I did. MR VISSER What was the reason for this? MR DU PREEZ There was no possibility to recruit them as informants because they were three together, and also because they were responsible for most or various explosions in the Durban area. MR VISSER Did you consider them as dangerous? MR DU PREEZ Yes, they were dangerous terrorists. MR VISSER Did you think that they had more explosives or ammunition? MR DU PREEZ Yes, I thought that. MR VISSER Thank you Mr Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR NEL Thank you Mr Chairperson, Christo Nel. Mr Du Preez, just a few questions about late Colonel Taylor. Do you agree with me, I think especially the applicants here, you would be the one who would have known Taylor the best? MR DU PREEZ Yes, I knew him very well. MR NEL You worked with him longer than the others at the Security Branch? MR DU PREEZ Yes, that is correct. MR NEL Is it correct that late Bobby Welman who were also an explosives expert, was in charge of Taylor and were also very close to him? MR DU PREEZ Yes, that is correct. MR NEL And the late Mike Mbede worked under Taylor's command as one of his men? MR DU PREEZ Yes, that is correct. MR NEL Would you say that Colonel Taylor's political viewpoints would be the same as yourself and the others here? MR DU PREEZ Yes, that is correct. MR NEL And it is also so that in the last few months of Taylor's life, and also in the application that he submitted, you had a lot of contact with him? MR DU PREEZ Yes, I did liaise with him regularly. MR NEL What was your impression concerning the memories he had, or information that he had, if you discussed it with him? MR DU PREEZ Well, Taylor could not remember a lot of things. MR NEL If you look at Taylor's application, he says at one stage that he helped with the digging of the grave on Ndwandwe. Can you comment on that? MR DU PREEZ That is not true. MR NEL Would you say that it is a mistake that he made because of his bad memory? MR DU PREEZ Yes, it was a mistake that he made. MR NEL Thank you Mr Chairperson, I've got no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NEL MR NOLTE Mr Chairman, no questions. NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR NOLTE CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR NGUBANE Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Du Preez, before you could go to Swaziland, was there any decision that Ms Ndwandwe would be killed if she didn't cooperate? MR DU PREEZ I cannot remember such a pertinent decision. MR NGUBANE Was there any practise prior to your going to Swaziland that any person who didn't cooperate to become an informer, would be killed as a matter of course? MR DU PREEZ No Mr Chairperson. MR NGUBANE Was there a decision at any stage that any person who did not want to cooperate as an informer, would be killed, that was taken in your presence and perhaps with your participation? MR DU PREEZ At any time, the time I spent at the Security Branch or are you talking about Ndwandwe specifically? MR NGUBANE Yes, the time you spent at the Security Branch, was it ever taken as a principle that anyone who didn't cooperate with you, would be eliminated? MR DU PREEZ No Mr Chairman, each case was dealt with on its own merit. MR NGUBANE So when you went to Swaziland for the kidnap of Ndwandwe, your aim was to kidnap her and convert her to be an informer, is that correct? MR DU PREEZ That is correct yes. MR NGUBANE And did you discuss when and where you were going to do this, to convert her? MR DU PREEZ Yes, we did discuss it. MR NGUBANE Where was that process going to be done? MR DU PREEZ I cannot remember. MR NGUBANE Did you gain the impression that she was going to be brought back into South Africa, and then be converted in the offices maybe of C.R. Swart or in Maritzburg, or what was your impression? MR DU PREEZ Mr Chairperson, the plan was very clear. We would take her to a house of safety at the border post, and from there, we would go to Pietermaritzburg. MR NGUBANE So when you left South Africa, your plan was clear, kidnap her from Swaziland, bring her to the border post and then take her to Pietermaritzburg, is that your evidence? MR DU PREEZ That is correct yes. MR NGUBANE There was no plan that she would be taken to the border post, converted and brought back to Swaziland? MR DU PREEZ If she were recruited as an informant, it would have been the process, yes. MR NGUBANE What would be the purpose of bringing her to Maritzburg? MR DU PREEZ Mr Chairperson, if she were to be recruited, we would have sent her back to Swaziland. If we did not recruit her, we would have taken her to Pietermaritzburg. That was the plan. MR NGUBANE So your evidence earlier on that you didn't, you can't recall where she was going to be converted as an informer, is incorrect? MR DU PREEZ I am not sure what your question is. MR NGUBANE I heard your evidence as being that you can't recall where the process of converting her was going to take place. MR DU PREEZ Mr Chairperson, we would have tried to recruit her after the abduction in Swaziland or during the abduction in Swaziland. How long this process would take, we could not have decided that beforehand. MR NGUBANE When she was taken the following day from the border post to Maritzburg, what was created in your mind, what did you think was happening? MR DU PREEZ Mr Chairperson, at that stage I haven't seen or did not know a lot about Ndwandwe, I did not form an opinion. MR NGUBANE You were just happy about taking her to Pietermaritzburg? MR DU PREEZ That is correct. At that stage Steyn, Botha and Taylor in control. MR NGUBANE Did you enquire why she was being taken to Maritzburg? MR DU PREEZ It was part of the plan, yes. MR NGUBANE Well, did you enquire why she was being taken to Maritzburg? MR DU PREEZ No, I did not. MR MALAN If I understand you correctly, then the plan or part of the plan was to take her to Pietermaritzburg and that was for the elimination, because if you were to turn her, according to your evidence, you would take her back across the border. I think the question is really when Pietermaritzburg came in, was it part of the implementation or the decision on the basis that she will not be recruited and that she must be eliminated? MR DU PREEZ Mr Chairperson, at this stage I cannot say when it became clear to me. I think it only became clear tome that afternoon in Pietermaritzburg, that she will be eliminated. MR MALAN Mr Du Preez, Mr Ngubane asked you what was the plan and you then explained the plan concerning taking her across the border, and if she is not recruited, her elimination, and when he asked you if this was the decision, you then said no, if she cooperated, she would have been taken immediately across the border, back into Swaziland. MR DU PREEZ Yes, that is correct. MR MALAN In other words it would have been another plan that you would have implemented, is that not correct? MR DU PREEZ That is correct, yes. MR MALAN The question is, the execution of the plan where she will not be taken back, but will be taken to Pietermaritzburg, must that then be seen as a confirmation of an execution of the first plan, the moment when she was taken to Pietermaritzburg? MR DU PREEZ That is correct Mr Chairperson. MR NGUBANE Thank you. I won't pursue with that point. Why did you have to use a false passport to go to Swaziland? MR DU PREEZ I had a false passport and I usually used it when I went to Swaziland. MR NGUBANE Yes, why? MR DU PREEZ To cover up the activities of the Security Branch, so that other people cannot see that we are operating there. MR NGUBANE Well, if you say other people, who do you mean? Who was going to get into these affairs and know that you are the Security people who are doing dirty works? MR DU PREEZ I am not sure what you mean with dirty works? MR NGUBANE Well, you could have used your ordinary passport, go to Swaziland and come back. I still don't follow the reason why you had to use a false passport. MR DU PREEZ Mr Chairperson, we worked with informants and a lot of the work we did, was undercover. MR NGUBANE Did you travel in false number plates, registration plates? MR DU PREEZ I did, yes. MR NGUBANE The vehicles that you used when you abducted Ndwandwe, did they have false registration number plates? MR DU PREEZ Yes, they did have false number plates. MR NGUBANE And you did that for the purposes of cover up, is that correct? MR DU PREEZ Yes, that is correct. MR NGUBANE Coming to the question of a baby, you say that you were not aware that she was breastfeeding, is that correct? MR DU PREEZ That is correct yes. MR NGUBANE Did she at any stage complain to you that she had left a baby for quite some time and she wanted to see the baby? MR DU PREEZ She did mention that she had a child, yes. MR NGUBANE And was it in the presence of Mr Botha when she mentioned this? MR DU PREEZ I cannot remember if Botha was there. MR NGUBANE At what stage did she mention that she had a baby, in Maritzburg or the border? MR DU PREEZ Mr Chairperson, I knew she had a child. MR NGUBANE Well, I know that you knew that she had a child, but you say that she mentioned that. All that I want to know is was it in Maritzburg or at the border when she mentioned it? MR DU PREEZ I cannot remember. MR NGUBANE Under what circumstances did she mentioned to you that she had a baby? MR DU PREEZ I cannot remember it Mr Chairperson. MR NGUBANE Was she crying? MR DU PREEZ She never cried in my presence. MR NGUBANE Did she say that she had a baby and she was longing for the baby? MR DU PREEZ Mr Chairperson, during that time she mentioned to me that she had a child. MR NGUBANE Yes, did she say she was longing for the child? MR DU PREEZ No, Mr Chairperson. MR NGUBANE Did she plead with you not to kill her because she had a small baby? MR DU PREEZ No Mr Chairperson. MR NGUBANE Was there any stage before she could be killed, when you gained the impression that she was aware that she was going to be killed? MR DU PREEZ No Mr Chairperson. MR NGUBANE When you blindfolded her, did she cry, scream? MR DU PREEZ No Mr Chairperson. MR NGUBANE Was she talking when you blindfolded her? MR DU PREEZ No Mr Chairperson. MR NGUBANE Did she complain and say why are you blindfolding me? MR DU PREEZ No, we gave an explanation why we were blindfolding her. MR NGUBANE And she was happy with your explanation? MR DU PREEZ That is correct yes. MR NGUBANE What explanation did you give her? MR DU PREEZ I cannot hear, can you repeat please. CHAIRPERSON He did not hear that last question. MR NGUBANE The question was what explanation did you give and the answer was that he can't remember. MR DU PREEZ That is not true. CHAIRPERSON The answer was he did not hear you. MR NGUBANE Okay. All right, you have heard the question, can you give me an answer? MR VISSER Can I just know what the question is, because I am confused. MR NGUBANE When you blindfolded her, you said that you gave her an explanation why you were blindfolding her, and my question was what explanation was that. MR DU PREEZ We told her that we are going to take her to another place, or transfer her to another place. MR NGUBANE And she was happy about that, as far as you could, did she ask you what place it was? MR DU PREEZ That is correct. No, she didn't ask any questions. She accepted it like that. MR NGUBANE And when you transferred her, before you could shoot her, did anyone tell you to shoot? MR DU PREEZ No Mr Chairperson. MR NGUBANE When the order was given to shoot her, was it given at the house or at the spot when she was actually shot? MR DU PREEZ I have already testified that Colonel Taylor told us that we must eliminate Ndwandwe, he did not give any prescriptions on how to do it. MR NGUBANE Was it at the house or at the spot where the shooting took place? MR DU PREEZ At the house. MR NGUBANE And was it in the presence of Ndwandwe? MR DU PREEZ Negative. MR NGUBANE Let's turn to the incident of Nxiweni. You say that he was involved in the Ramlakan case, is that correct? MR DU PREEZ That is correct Chairperson. MR NGUBANE And some of the people that were arrested in connection with that case, they were promised that they would be made State witnesses, they made statements in terms of Section 29, is that correct? MR DU PREEZ That is correct Chairperson. MR NGUBANE Were those people that made statements in terms of Section 29, Umkhonto We Sizwe people? MR DU PREEZ That is correct Chairperson. MR NGUBANE And did you influence them by assaulting them, so that they could make these statements? MR DU PREEZ No Chairperson. MR NGUBANE Did you attempt to influence Nxiweni to turn into a State witness? MR DU PREEZ No Mr Chairperson. MR NGUBANE Why not? MR DU PREEZ I didn't work with him. MR NGUBANE Well, how did you know that there was no attempt to turn him into a State witness, do you know? MR DU PREEZ Could you please repeat the question. MR NGUBANE Do you know whether there was an attempt to turn him into a State witness, if I may make myself clearer? MR DU PREEZ No, I wasn't aware of any such attempt. MR NGUBANE But your investigations, was it not the plan to make the case as strong as possible against the main actors, Ramlakan and Duduzile? MR DU PREEZ Chairperson, I was one of the interrogators and I questioned one of the persons, by name of Robert Mlanzi. I was not in control of those that Mr Taylor had to do with. MR NGUBANE But you accept it as a fact that Mr Nxiweni did not offer to be a State witness, is that correct? CHAIRPERSON As he said, he said he doesn't know. He doesn't know if an attempt was made to get him. The first question you asked him was if he did it, and he said no. MR NGUBANE Yes, if I may just put it the other way. Do you accept it as a fact that according to your knowledge, no Section statement that you are aware of, was taken from Mr Nxiweni? MR DU PREEZ I am not aware of that. MR NGUBANE Do you know how much time they spent in prison before the trial could be heard? MR DU PREEZ I suspect approximately one year. MR NGUBANE Do you agree with me that if there was an attempt to make him a State witness, a period of one year could have been enough inducement for him to turn into a State witness? MR DU PREEZ I cannot comment on that. MR NGUBANE And when he was arrested, just immediately before he could be killed, that is the second arrest now, were you present when he was interrogated for the first time? MR DU PREEZ No Chairperson. MR NGUBANE Did you meet him on the very first day that he was arrested? MR DU PREEZ For the second time? MR NGUBANE Yes? MR DU PREEZ For the second time, yes. MR NGUBANE And approximately when did you come into contact with him? MR DU PREEZ When he was arrested? MR NGUBANE Yes, that is for the second time now, that is the second incident, forget about the Ramlakan incident. MR DU PREEZ It was in the late afternoon that he was arrested. MR NGUBANE Yes, well when you came into contact with him, approximately at what hour? MR DU PREEZ Late afternoon, 6 o'clock approximately. MR NGUBANE Were you involved in the immediate interrogation of him? MR DU PREEZ Yes, I was. MR NGUBANE From 6 o'clock until when? MR DU PREEZ It was from 6 o'clock until late at night. MR NGUBANE All right. Did he give you information during that period? MR DU PREEZ Yes, he gave us information. MR NGUBANE That is after you had assaulted him as you have indicated? MR DU PREEZ That is correct. MR NGUBANE The following day, did you also participate in his interrogation? MR DU PREEZ Yes, I did. MR NGUBANE Did you assault him on the following day again? MR DU PREEZ I cannot recall that he was assaulted on the following day as well. MR NGUBANE But did he give you information on the following day? MR DU PREEZ Yes, he did. He did provide information. MR NGUBANE If you can recall, how many incidents did he talk about during the interrogation the previous day and the following day? MR DU PREEZ Chairperson, he told us about him and his unit, which places they had bombed. I don't know, do you want me to mention specific things, I can refer you to Exhibit 88. I think amongst other things, there was the Montclair railway line, the Rosborough railway station, offices, court offices which they had bombed. I might be able to mention more if I could peruse Exhibit A. MR NGUBANE Okay, not a problem. But do you confirm the evidence of Mr Botha that on the following day, he was interrogated the whole day? MR DU PREEZ Yes, he was interrogated. MR NGUBANE Well sir, these incidents that you have mentioned, I suggest to you that they are not so lengthy as to necessitate a period of more than 12 hours of interrogation, do you agree with me? MR DU PREEZ Chairperson, we did not only interrogate him regarding the explosions, he was interrogated regarding other matters as well. MR NGUBANE Which matters are you referring to now? MR DU PREEZ Regarding other activities, other divisions which were under his command. MR NGUBANE Yes, even those, I suggest to you they could not have necessitated this length of time. MR DU PREEZ Chairperson, this interrogation was not continuous throughout the day. There were times when we took breaks and there were times when we went over things that he had told us. MR NGUBANE Is it not the position that this interrogation was not as mild as you have put it to us, this man was severely assaulted before he could give you any information? MR DU PREEZ Chairperson, he was assaulted as I have described. MR NGUBANE Had you discussed with Mr Botha that this man would just be given a few slaps and a punch? MR DU PREEZ I did not discuss that with Botha. MR NGUBANE I am just surprised by the similarity of the pattern. Mr Botha assaults this man, he gives him a few slaps and punches and you also do the same thing. Was it a coincidence? MR DU PREEZ Chairperson, this man was questioned, and if we were not satisfied with his responses, he was assaulted. MR NGUBANE How many times approximately? MR DU PREEZ I can't recall. MR NGUBANE It could have been 10 times, 20 times, because you cannot recall? MR DU PREEZ That is possible, I can't recall. MR MALAN Mr Ngubane, if you will just allow me - Mr Du Preez, this so-called question and answer method, I would like to have more information regarding this, because it is something that the other applicants have mentioned. This question/answer method incorporated assault, that if there wasn't any cooperation, the person would be slapped and hit with a fist? MR DU PREEZ Yes, that is correct. MR MALAN One of the things on everybody's conscience would be, the degree of severity of these assaults, these slappings and fist blows. Regarding fist blows, he was hit in the face and on the body, I think you also gave evidence which was similar? MR DU PREEZ That is correct. MR MALAN Was he injured, did he bleed at any place on his body as a result of being hit with a fist? MR DU PREEZ I can't remember that Pumeso was bleeding. MR MALAN Could his nose have broken as a result of the fist blows, could one have broken a rib, what was the violence with which he was struck? These are the questions which are being put consistently, what was the degree of assault which would make a man talk? Can you remember? MR DU PREEZ Mr Chairperson, he was assaulted as I have said. I can't remember that there was any blood running from his nose or his mouth for example and I am very certain that there were no fractures, such as broken ribs or arms. MR NGUBANE Thank you. As far as you were aware, before Nxiweni could be arrested, was there any intention of turning him into an informer? MR DU PREEZ No Mr Chairperson, not according to me. MR NGUBANE If I understood your evidence correctly when you were being led, you said that there was no chance that this man could be turned into an informer and he was eliminated, is that correct? MR DU PREEZ Chairperson, it was clear from two years previously that he had been busy with bombings, and it was not his intention to seize his terrorist activities. MR NGUBANE Yes, my understanding of your evidence is that you interrogated this man, and you realised that he could not be turned into an informer. To me it sounded as if it was a realisation of that particular moment, was I correct in my understanding of your evidence? MR DU PREEZ No Mr Chairperson. MR NGUBANE So you were going to eliminate him any way, without even attempting to turn him into an informer? Was that your plan? MR DU PREEZ That was the plan Chairperson. MR NGUBANE You wanted to squeeze him of all the information and then kill him just like that? MR DU PREEZ That is correct Chairperson. MR NGUBANE Was it ever in your mind, that he should be prosecuted? MR DU PREEZ No Chairperson. MR NGUBANE Why not? MR DU PREEZ I think that we had learnt from previous experience. MR NGUBANE Yes, what previous experience and what had you learnt? MR DU PREEZ When Pumeso was formerly charged and found not guilty. MR NGUBANE So, after the Ramlakan case, is it your suggestion that you decided that if we catch this man, we must just eliminate him? MR DU PREEZ No Chairperson. MR NGUBANE At what stage did you then because of the Ramlakan experience, decide that this man should be eliminated? MR DU PREEZ After we had become aware that he had once again become involved in bomb explosions and continued with his acts of terrorism. MR NGUBANE Immediately after the Ramlakan case, did it ever occur to you that this man has escaped and he is going to continue with his terrorist as you put it, activities? MR DU PREEZ It did not come to my attention then. MR NGUBANE You thought that he was a changed man after the acquittal? MR DU PREEZ I did not give that a thought. MR NGUBANE You didn't think about him at all? MR DU PREEZ I can't recall whether I thought about him specifically. There were many persons involved in that case who got away. MR NGUBANE Okay, the kwaMashu 3 incident. MR MALAN I beg our pardon Mr Ngubane. Nxiweni and Bhila were the only two who got away on a specific date before the others, isn't that correct? MR DU PREEZ That is correct. MR MALAN So there weren't many others who got away with him, it was only those two? MR DU PREEZ In the court case there were also other persons who got away. MR MALAN I don't have the records in front of me, but according to the judgment it was much later? MR DU PREEZ I think Buthelezi was much earlier. MR MALAN I beg your pardon? MR DU PREEZ Buthelezi was earlier if I recall correctly. MR MALAN Weren't Nxiweni and Bhila let go at the end of the State's case on the basis that there was absolutely no evidence brought in against them, that is the reflection of the record? MR DU PREEZ That is correct. MR MALAN Well, then the others would not have been set free, the hearing continued, and the question is when he was released, when he got away from the case from which you say you have learnt things out of previous experience, did you then think of him as someone who would continue with his activities, and your answer was then, but there were many other people, it wasn't only him. But there were actually only those two people. So, I am just asking you this question again, did you ever consider when Bhila and Nxiweni were released, that the risk would arise that they would continue with their activities? MR DU PREEZ It was a possibility. I did consider that possibility. CHAIRPERSON Was it also true that there were many others who had not been charged? MR DU PREEZ And also not caught. MR NGUBANE Thank you. The kwaMashu 3 incident, before I put any questions to you, I have been requested by Mr Filikazi to enquire from you whether you can point to him a spot where these people were killed, so that they can do some traditional rights on that spot. Are you in a position to do that? MR DU PREEZ Chairperson, my evidence was that all of them were shot in the back of the head. MR NGUBANE No, I mean the scene where they were shot, are you in a position to point that out? MR DU PREEZ The scene? MR NGUBANE Yes. MR VISSER Mr Chairman, the Investigation Unit knows exactly where the spot is, it has been pointed out by the witnesses to him. There is no problem in them finding it through the Investigation Unit. CHAIRPERSON This is the kwaMashu 3. There are numerous. MR VISSER We all know where it is, well, except myself, I haven't been there, but there is no problem in finding out. MR NGUBANE Then that satisfies us Mr Chairman. When you had information about the activities of the kwaMashu 3, especially about the bombing they were about to execute, when did you hear about that? You personally? MR DU PREEZ I myself? Botha contacted me and told me that the informer had arranged a meeting. MR NGUBANE I take it that Botha requested you to come with him, to prevent that bombing to take place, is that correct? MR DU PREEZ That is correct. MR NGUBANE You wanted to add something? MR DU PREEZ Botha called me to come and help him with the arrest of the four that we suspected. MR NGUBANE So as far as you were aware, the plan was to go and arrest these people, is that correct? MR DU PREEZ That was initially, when Botha contacted me. ADV SIGODI Sorry, in other words, the number of people who were expected to come, there were four people expected to come on that day? MR DU PREEZ That is correct. ADV SIGODI Do you know if that would also include Naya Ngema? MR DU PREEZ It would have been him as well, he was supposed to be with the group. ADV SIGODI He was also expected to come? MR DU PREEZ That is correct yes. MR NGUBANE But to make everything clear once more, is it correct that it is not your evidence that Naya Ngema was the person that gave you information about these people, he was one of the people that you intended to arrest, is that correct? MR DU PREEZ That is correct Chairperson. MR NGUBANE Before you could go to arrest these people, was there a meeting amongst all of you that eventually went there, to discuss the plan? MR DU PREEZ I can't recall where we all came together. Botha contacted me and Wasserman and told us to come along. I don't know where we rendezvoused before the time, but we moved together or congregated and then moved to Avoca Bridge where the other four would arrive. MR NGUBANE With the purpose of arresting these people? MR DU PREEZ Arresting, yes. MR NGUBANE Pardon? MR DU PREEZ That is correct. MR NGUBANE And you intercepted these people, and you put certain questions to them, is that right? MR DU PREEZ That is correct. MR NGUBANE But you knew all that they were going to do, is that right? You had information about what they were going to do? MR DU PREEZ That is correct. MR NGUBANE Why was it necessary to enquire from them about their activities, if you knew what they were going to do? MR DU PREEZ Chairperson, if you arrest someone, you would obviously ask them what they were doing. Even though you know who the person was, you would ask their name and ask them where they were on their way to. MR NGUBANE And they told you a lie and you decided to assault them, is that right? MR DU PREEZ That is not correct. MR NGUBANE Well, what made you decide to assault them? MR DU PREEZ Mr Chairperson, we arrested them and took them to the safe house at Verulam, where we began to interrogate them. It was during this process that they were assaulted. MR NGUBANE When you interrogated them, well, I understood you as saying that when you asked them about this incident they were going to be involved in, they told you a lie and you gave them a few slaps because you realised that they were telling a lie. Was that not your evidence? MR DU PREEZ Mr Chairperson, that was when they were arrested. At the house, they tried to repeat this story when we asked for an explanation as to what they were busy doing. MR NGUBANE And they told you a lie before you could assault them, is that right? MR DU PREEZ That is correct. MR NGUBANE And you assaulted them in order for them to repeat what you already knew, is that right? MR DU PREEZ We assaulted them so that they would produce the true story. MR NGUBANE Yes, well, if you knew about this story, was it not out of spite that you assaulted them? What more did you want them to tell you, because you knew the story? MR DU PREEZ Chairperson, it was a test for other questions which we were going to put to them. MR NGUBANE And you hadn't put those questions to them to see whether they were going to tell you some information? MR DU PREEZ We did put other questions to them, upon which they did provide us with answers. MR NGUBANE Was it before you could assault them, that you asked them about the other incidents? MR DU PREEZ Could you please repeat your question. MR NGUBANE About the other incidents that you asked them about, did you ask them before you could assault them, or after you had assaulted them? MR DU PREEZ We interrogated them, and if they were telling lies, according to what we suspected to be lies, we would assault them. MR NGUBANE So this process of assaulting them, was an ongoing process, if they told you something that you felt was a lie, you kept on assaulting them? MR DU PREEZ That is correct. MR NGUBANE For how long did this process take place? Was it a day or six hours, ten hours? MR DU PREEZ It was approximately four to five hours. MR NGUBANE Can you recall, the question has been put whether they bled at any stage, can you recall? MR DU PREEZ I can't recall. MR NGUBANE When was the decision taken to eliminate them? MR DU PREEZ This decision was made on the farm, at the safe house, after they had been arrested. MR NGUBANE It was taken at the farm, was it after the interrogation or during the interrogation? MR DU PREEZ I think that this was during the interrogation. MR NGUBANE They were giving you information, why decide to eliminate them? MR DU PREEZ Chairperson, we were of the opinion that all three of them could not be recruited or charged. MR NGUBANE Why couldn't you charge them, you had found them in possession of instruments in terms of the law, which were illegal to possess. You had direct evidence that these people had been found in possession of these instruments. What prevented you from charging them? MR DU PREEZ I think that the decision had already been taken to eliminate them. MR NGUBANE Well, you have told us that the decision was taken there at the house. Now if you say that you think that it had been taken to eliminate them, what makes you say so? MR DU PREEZ Perhaps I may be wrong, the decision had been taken to eliminate them. MR NGUBANE Are you sure about that? MR DU PREEZ I think the ultimate is indicative thereof. MR NGUBANE No, are you sure about the fact that when you came to the house and interrogated these people, the decision had been taken to eliminate them? MR DU PREEZ That is correct Chairperson. MR NGUBANE Assuming that the decision had been taken that they would be eliminated, before you could go to the house, was there a decision taken at the house again, to eliminate them? MR VISSER Mr Chairman, with respect to my learned friend, he is confusing not only the witness, but even myself. The witness has made it quite clear that the decision to eliminate them, was taken after they had arrived at the safe house. My learned friend is now juggling it around to when you arrived at the house, or on the proposition that before you arrived at the house, none of which was the witness' evidence. CHAIRPERSON He is now agreeing with it Mr Visser. As I understand it, your witness has just agreed that the decision had been taken by the time they came to the house. MR VISSER That is precisely my point Mr Chairman, it is because of the confusion that is created by the question. He is being misled into answering questions which is not correct. CHAIRPERSON I don't think he is being misled, I think he is being pushed along, and he is agreeing. MR NGUBANE Mr Du Preez, can we get an answer, the question was at the house, was there a stage when it was agreed again that these people should be eliminated? MR DU PREEZ Mr Chairperson, after these arrests of these persons, when we arrived at the house, we had decided that they were to be eliminated. MR NGUBANE Mr Du Preez, I am going to put it to you that the conflict in your answer is a clear indication that you are not making a full disclosure. You are trying to create a story that should agree with the other applicants, who have told fabricated stories before this Commission. MR DU PREEZ Mr Chairperson, I am not certain what Mr Ngubane is driving at. MR MALAN I am watching you and I am watching the questioning. I don't know if you should listen to the interpretation, if there is one available, because I am not certain whether or not you are following the intonation of all the questions. Mr Ngubane, will you proceed, we will see if helps a little if the interpretation assists him. MR NGUBANE Thank you. I am putting to you sir, that you are telling this story differently because you are not coming out clean on what happened. You are trying to tailor your evidence. MR DU PREEZ Could you repeat please. MR NGUBANE I am putting to you that you are contradicting yourself precisely because you are not coming out clean as to what happened regarding this incident. You are tailoring your evidence to agree with the story of the other applicants, which also is fabricated, which is not a full disclosure of what happened. MR DU PREEZ That is not true Mr Chairman. MR NGUBANE I am putting it to you that you killed these people out of spite, there was no reason why you should kill them, the kwaMashu 3? MR DU PREEZ That is not true. MR NGUBANE Thank you Mr Chairman, no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NGUBANE CROSS-EXAMINATION BY ADV PRIOR I have a few aspects, thank you. Mr Du Preez, in the case of terrorists who were caught with weapons, what was the possibilities except for the elimination or killing of them, you could have detained them, is that not true? MR DU PREEZ It was not a decision in this case. ADV PRIOR No, I am talking now in general. You could have detained them, is that not true? MR DU PREEZ That is correct. ADV PRIOR In terms of Section 29 or any other Section. MR DU PREEZ That is a possibility, yes. ADV PRIOR For how long before you charged them? MR DU PREEZ I cannot remember at that stage, what it was. ADV PRIOR Was it months, weeks? MR DU PREEZ I think 30 days maybe. ADV PRIOR And you could get a new certificate and still detain that person? MR DU PREEZ No, it wasn't very easy. ADV PRIOR And the fact that they were in possession of limpet mines, you could successfully charge them? There were direct evidence against them, is that correct? MR DU PREEZ Not what I believed. ADV PRIOR Let us leave the decision to eliminate them out of this. You could if you wanted to, charge them under whatever legislation and continue with a successful prosecution? MR DU PREEZ At that stage I did not think that it would be the case. ADV PRIOR You found three limpet mines in a carrier bag, is that correct? MR DU PREEZ Yes, that is correct. ADV PRIOR You said that you did not trust that evidence. I am talking in general, Mr Du Preez, it is not a trick question. If they were charged, would they have been found guilty? MR DU PREEZ Possibly yes. ADV PRIOR And at least five years? MR DU PREEZ That is possible. ADV PRIOR And effectively would be taken out of circulation through this method, on the basis of that? MR DU PREEZ Yes, that is correct. ADV PRIOR Exactly the same with Nxiweni, he was found with weapons and explosives in a trunk in his house? MR DU PREEZ That is correct yes. ADV PRIOR Is it not the case that the decision was made a long time before they were arrested, and that is to kill them? MR DU PREEZ No Mr Chairperson. ADV PRIOR With the release of Nxiweni and Bhila in 1987, according to the amnesty application of Mr Rosslee, bundle 1, Mr Rosslee put it as follows, page 24 of that bundle, although it is being denied, but I am going to question you about this and present you with a probability. We Mr Wasserman of the local Security Branch. He told us that two of the accused in the Toti bomb blast criminal trial, had been acquitted, but was still continuing their subversive actions, that our task was to arrest them for purposes of elimination. We know that that reference there is about a period after the Ramlakan case and the release of Bhila and Nxiweni? MR DU PREEZ That is correct yes. ADV PRIOR I would like to put it to you and it seems out of Rosslee's initial application, that at that stage in 1987, a decision was made to those who were referred to wrongly in the Toti case, was the Ramlakan incident, and that they had to be killed at that stage, will you agree with me? MR DU PREEZ Yes, I heard that in evidence. ADV PRIOR Was that the case? MR DU PREEZ No, I cannot comment on that. ADV PRIOR The name Pindele Mfeti, is it known to you? MR DU PREEZ No. ADV PRIOR The questions that I put to your colleagues, you heard it? MR DU PREEZ Yes. ADV PRIOR Have you got any comment or can you maybe assist us in that regard? MR DU PREEZ No Mr Chairperson. ADV PRIOR Is it possible that you at one stage in April 1987 rather than Nxiweni, abducted the wrong person? MR DU PREEZ No Mr Chairperson. MR MALAN Why do you say that? MR DU PREEZ Because I did not pick a man up before that. MR MALAN No, I do not think that they refer to you, they refer to the unit? MR DU PREEZ No, I do not know about a person that was picked up. MR MALAN The question was is it a possibility? MR DU PREEZ I do not think that it is possible, that a person would be wrongly abducted. MR MALAN Did you have any knowledge of Bhila's abduction and elimination? MR DU PREEZ No, I did not. MR MALAN Why is it not possible that you would not have any knowledge of that attempt to eliminate Nxiweni? MR DU PREEZ I have not heard anything like that. MR MALAN But you haven't heard about Bhila? MR DU PREEZ That is correct. MR MALAN Is it possible that there was such an attempt? MR DU PREEZ Yes, it is possible. MR MALAN Is it possible that the wrong person was picked up? MR DU PREEZ It is possible. ADV PRIOR During the Ramlakan hearing and also the investigation thereof, mention was made of a Taylor unit, the Allan Taylor unit, is that correct? MR DU PREEZ During Ramlakan? ADV PRIOR Yes, Nxiweni had ties with that unit, is that correct? MR DU PREEZ Yes, that is. ADV PRIOR Can you remember who else were members of that unit, that is now during the Ramlakan hearing? MR DU PREEZ I remember that there was a person named Chichanzi and I cannot remember the other person. ADV PRIOR Was there another person? MR DU PREEZ Yes, there was. ADV PRIOR Do you agree that that unit broke away after the arrests, or disbanded completely, they did not exist, because of the Ramlakan charges? MR DU PREEZ Yes. ADV PRIOR And that was also the information that you had? MR DU PREEZ Yes, that is correct. ADV PRIOR The whole organisation was infiltrated to such an manner as we heard and that the information received, was of good quality? MR DU PREEZ Yes, it was. ADV PRIOR In 1988, what was the information that you had concerning the Allan Taylor unit? Did it still exist? MR DU PREEZ At that stage Nxiweni, there were two other members with him. ADV PRIOR Who were they? MR DU PREEZ I tried to remember their names. I did know their names Mr Chairperson, but I cannot remember at this stage. ADV PRIOR They were not your informants? MR DU PREEZ No Mr Chairperson. ADV PRIOR What happened to them according to the information that you have? MR DU PREEZ The two people were taken back by bus to the Transkei after Pumeso's elimination. ADV PRIOR Just a moment Mr Chairperson. Mr Chairman, may I place something on record, to correct a statement of fact that was put to, I think, Colonel Botha. I don't have any more questions of this witness. If the Committee will recall Exhibit H was tendered and I had indicated that these were notes made or preparatory notes made in the course of an investigation. A lot of the information had not been corroborated. It was then put to Mr Botha and some of the others that Pila Portia Ndwandwe had remained in attendance at the Ramlakan trial, which conflicted with the applicants' version, that she had left the country in 1986. I have subsequently been able to confirm that in fact, she left the Republic in October of 1986, which means that she was not present at the Ramlakan trial, as was suggested to the witness. I thought it necessary to place that on record Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV PRIOR RE-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER Yes, I thank my learned friend Mr Chairman, not that I believe that there was really a big point turning around it, but we thank him for his honesty. Mr Chairman, I have one question this time by way of exception, in re-examination. I might deal with it immediately, unless the Committee has questions to this witness, in which event, we will stand down till tomorrow. Well, then may I deal with the one question Mr Chairman. Mr Du Preez, one easily thinks that if one arrests someone, take him to court and he is charged or put into jail for a period of time, that he would have no influence in the community, is that true? MR DU PREEZ No Mr Chairperson. MR VISSER Why do you say that is not true? MR DU PREEZ I think if we can just look at the ANC leaders at Robben Island and the influence they had on the organisation. MR VISSER In your experience, is it that messages were sent in and out of jail? MR DU PREEZ Yes. MR VISSER And that instructions were given from out of jail? MR DU PREEZ Yes. MR VISSER Not just in our country, but all across the world? MR DU PREEZ Yes, it is the general experience. MR VISSER Thank you Mr Chairman. It is quarter past three Mr Chairman, I hope your dentist is going to be waiting for you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON No, my turn is half past. MR VISSER Oh, I thought 3 o'clock. CHAIRPERSON No, half past. Do you want to start another witness, or do you want to finish early? MR VISSER We can start another witness, yes Mr Chairman. ADV PRIOR May I suggest that we take the adjournment now, we have one last witness, Mr Chairman. By all accounts, we should be finished with the evidence tomorrow as a whole, so we are ahead of schedule. If we call a witness now, he is going to stand over, we are not going to finish any of the cross-examination. MR VISSER Yes Mr Chairman, I would go along with that. CHAIRPERSON We will adjourn until 9 o'clock tomorrow morning. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS