amntrans AMNESTY HEARING 1998-11-16 WELKOM 1 STEPHEN DONALD MAKHURA AM 0014/96 SHOOTING - BETHLEHEM, FICKSBURG https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=52973&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1998/98111618 _wlk_981116wel.htm CHAIRPERSON I apologise for the late start in this matter but it was due to circumstances beyond our control. I am informed we are now in a position to proceed. CHAIRPERSON EXPLAINS TRANSLATION EQUIPMENT TO PUBLIC CHAIRPERSON Before we start I would just like to introduce the panel to you. On my right is Doctor Tsotsi. Doctor Tsotsi is an attorney, he comes from Port Elizabeth. On my left is Mr Sibanyoni. Mr Sibanyoni is also an attorney who comes from Pretoria and I am Selwyn Miller, I am a Judge from the High Court of the Eastern Cape, attached to the Transkei Division of the High Court there. The applications that we'll be dealing with today are those of Messrs Fokazi , Ndabene, Makhura, Mofokeng and Mokoena. I would just like at this stage to ask the legal representatives please to place themselves on record. MR MHLABA Thank you, Chair, my name Booker Mhlaba. I am acting on behalf of the five applicants. CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Mhlaba. Mr Mapoma? MR MAPOMA Thank you, Chairperson. My name is Zuko Mapoma, I'm the Evidence Leader for the Committee. CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Mapoma. Mr Mhlaba? MR MHLABA Thank you, Chair. I realising that the applicants have not been brought here I wanted to start by calling the third applicant being Steven Donald Makhura. CHAIRPERSON Are the applicants not here? MR MHLABA They are here. I think Correctional Services are supposed to bring them down. CHAIRPERSON Yes, I think that they must be present, it is afterall their applications that we are hearing. MR MHLABA Thank you, Chair, I beg leave to call the third applicant being, Steven Donald Makhura. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mhlaba, we can see that there are four applicants here whereas according to the documentation there ought to be five, is it Mr Mokoena who is not present? MR MHLABA Indeed Chair, the other applicant has not been brought here from some reasons unknown to us. In any event I wanted to indicate to the Chair that the application of Simon Mofokeng and the application of Tshokolo Joseph Mokoena, being the fourth and fifth applicants, I was considering withdrawing them for the reasons that they were not involved in this unlawful act which forms the subject matter of this application today. My instructions are that they were not in the company of the first, second and third applicant when this crime was committed and they were falsely implicated and subsequently convicted. They are also serving prison terms in respect of the very offences but the gist of the matter is that they did not commit the offence. CHAIRPERSON You're appearing for all five, Mr Mhlaba, is that correct? MR MHLABA That's correct, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON So do you propose that we proceed with the applications, well subject to what you've said about Mr Mofokeng, that we proceed with the hearing of the applications of, we'll call them just for convenience, the first, second and third applicants, Messrs Fokazi, Ndabene and Makhura? MR MHLABA That is correct, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON EXPLAINS TRANSLATION EQUIPMENT TO APPLICANT CHAIRPERSON What language will you be testifying in? MR MAKHURA English. CHAIRPERSON English? Thank you. STEPHEN DONALD MAKHURA (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR MHLABA Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr Makhura, you are the applicant in this matter, you're applying for amnesty for a crime committed on the 2nd of April 1992 and this crime was committed while you were in the company of Mandla Wellington Fokazi, Thozamile Clement Ndabene, is that correct? MR MAKHURA That's correct, Sir. MR MHLABA Mr Makhura, are you able to briefly give this Committee your personal circumstances, where were you born? MR MAKHURA I was in Pietersburg in 1964, on the 5th month, the 24th. MR MHLABA And the application you're bringing, Mr Makhura, it's an amnesty for those offences already mentioned, and you are applying for amnesty on the basis that these offences were committed with a political motive. I want you to explain to the Committee whether you belonged to a political organisation and how you joined the organisation and when. MR MAKHURA Thank you, Sir. "I will briefly outline my political background. I left this country sometime after 1986 to Botswana. I stayed at a refugee camp called, Dukwe which was under the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees. That is where I joined the African National Congress. After staying there for some few weeks I left for Zimbabwe where I stayed in a suburb near Harare, called Hatfield. During that time I became interested in politics. Together with other comrades we proceeded to Zambia in Chelston. In Chelston its where we made a choice to undergo military training in Angola. We left for Angola together with more than nine comrades. In Angola I trained Enikakulama(?) at a base called "Richard's Bhani Molokwani". I stayed there until 1989. As a result of Resolution 435 of the United Nations which compelled all the foreign forces to leave Angola, we left for Tanzania. Some of our cadres went to Uganda and some went to Tanzania. From Tanzania at Eringa Place I again left to Tanga near the Indian Ocean where I further my military training. I came back to Eringa where there was this influx of young comrades running away from political violence, that is black on black violence inside the country. I was appointed a commander and a commissar at the same time to train those young comrades to come back inside the country to defend themselves and the people. I came to South Africa in 1992 on the 27th of February. It must also be noted that during our stay in exile we used to discuss a lot about political violence taking place in the country, especially between the IFP and the ANC, and the young comrades whom we were training in Tanzania related to us the horrors of political violence inside the country. We sometimes listened to the radio stations like BBC, Duchavel, VOA and other stations relating the fierce violence taking place inside the country. Then on the 27th of February I returned to the country as a former exile. I stayed in Thokoza, that is where the violence was taking its toll. I found the situation unbearable. People were dying there. As a cadre of Umkhonto weSizwe I had to act my role ..." ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Sorry, you say that that violence at that stage that was taking place in Thokoza was so-called black on black violence? MR MAKHURA Yes, Sir. It was called black on black violence, normally by the media and other people who were not involved there in that violence but we knew that violence was not black on black violence, Sir. "As a cadre of Umkhonto weSizwe I got in contact with some of the operatives inside the country and they advised me to go and help there at Polla Park, to go and train the SDUs there. Polla Park was a very strong hold of the ANC. Even militarily the place was feared by the previous rulers of this country. We had all assortment of weapons including Vinanti airguns there. The record states clearly that even the police, the Security Forces couldn't penetrate that place. It was a base, a guerilla base. During that time violence continued because there are still hostels near Polla Park. It was again exacerbated by the media that the ANC was fighting, I mean Xhosa speaking people were fighting Zulu speaking people. We know by the time that it was not true. After getting in contact with some of the Self Defence Units there - by that time I was still staying in the township but sometimes I went to Polla Park because Polla Park is not more than five kilometres from where my brother resided in Thokoza. I missed being killed many a times. Almost all my friends have been killed in Thokoza. I was advised by the Self Defence Units of Polla Park to go and stay there in Polla Park. I was given a shack to stay in. We sometimes undertook missions to go and defend other places, for example Ermelo, Ratanda, Thembisa, Meadowlands and other places. Some of my comrades, the SDU were arrested during those missions and some killed. On the 1st of April 1992 I was approached by Sebenzile Ndabene(?) ..." Pardon Sir? CHAIRPERSON Just repeat that name please. MR MAKHURA "I was approached by Sebenzile Ndabene. Sebenzile Ndabene was one of the high-ranking ANC members in Polla Park. He was also Self Defence Unit member but there is a difference according to us between the SDU and operator in Polla Park. When we talk of operators we refer to those who carry weapons of war and those who are highly trained. Then when we talk of Self Defence Units we refer to each and every person who is capable of carrying any rudimentary weapon to defend the people ..." ...(intervention) MR SIBANYONI Excuse me, is Sebenzile Ndabene the same person as Nozulu? MR MAKHURA No, Sir. MR SIBANYONI Okay. MR MAKHURA No, Sir, they are different. "On the night of the 1st of April 1992 - before I proceed Sir, it must be noted again that I arrived on the 27th of February 1992 inside the country from exile and the incident I'm applying for amnesty for happened on the 2nd of April 1992, it means I stayed less than four weeks inside the country after so long in exile. It happened that on the night of the 1st of April 1992, Sebenzile approached me to clean five AK47 rifles and to load 10 magazines of bullets. I did so. He said to me: "We will be going to Natal to go and defend people there". It was a normal thing for people to come and ask assistance from Polla Park since a very strong hold of the ANC politically and militarily. Another point to be noted Sir, is that in Polla Park there were political leadership and military leadership. It's possible that those who are engaged in military actions may not know what's going on from the side of the political office of ANC at Polla Park. Then I cleaned the rifles. The following day was the 2nd of April 1992, we embarked on our trip to Natal. It was Sebenzile Ndabene, Nozulu, Mac Gregor, Wellington, Joe, the driver of that car ..." ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Sorry, I think if you could just take these names slowly because we've got to record them down, Mr Makhura. So it was Sebenzile ... MR MAKHURA Yes, Sir. CHAIRPERSON The next one? MR MAKHURA The second one was Nozulu. I'm afraid Sir, I do not know their surnames. The third was Mac Gregor, the fourth was Wellington, the fifth one was Joe, the sixth was the driver, the seventh was Nxala and lastly myself. "I need to state it clearly that two of the people I talked about here are now deceased, that's Sebenzile Ndabene and Mac Gregor. They were gunned down on that day in Bethlehem in the Free State. Nozulu went for training in the former SADF. He was one of the highly trained SDU member in Polla Park. Joe trained with Frelimo forces in Mozambique. I do not know the type of training or any knowledge whether they know these following people of the trip to Natal, that's the driver and Nxala. I only knew of Sebenzile, Nozulu, Mac Gregor, Wellington, Joe and myself as trained members of the ANC and those who were going to Natal, Sir." ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Now of those names you mentioned, Mr Makhura, Wellington, is that Mandla Wellington Fokazi, one of your co-applicants here? MR MAKHURA That's correct, Sir. CHAIRPERSON And Thozamile Clement Ndabeni, who is he? MR MAKHURA He's the driver. CHAIRPERSON Is he the driver? MR MAKHURA Yes, Sir. I did not know his name prior to that incident, Sir. That is why I only wrote "the driver", but now I know him. "We proceeded to Natal but I heard from Sebenzile that he had to pass at a place called Bethlehem in Free State - that's the place I did not know at all, so as to collect his money from Nxala. Nxala is my co-accused, he is Johannes Scalo Nxala. That's the reason why we had to pass at Bohlokong black township in Bethlehem. The entire morning on the very same day I stayed in the house together with some of the people I mentioned here but it was Nxala and Sebenzile who went out with the car. I do not know where they went to. On the very same in the afternoon we proceeded to our destination, that's Natal. We passed at a garage somewhere in the town in Bethlehem but I heard later that the reason why we had to pass at that town was for Nxala to collect money for Sebenzile. Then we left for Natal. Just outside Bethlehem town the car stopped. There seemed to have been an argument between Nxala and Sebenzile. According to my knowledge, Nxala was not going to Natal. The reason why he was in the car from the garage to the spot where the car stopped was to show Sebenzile the road to Natal, but I believe he will come and confirm that on his own, Sir. There seemed to have been an argument between Sebenzile and Nxala and since Sebenzile was a trigger happy person I thought something was going to take place. He was angry, this Sebenzile. Then Wellington Fokazi said I must disembark at the back of the car. It was a van, Sir. I disembarked and together with Johannes Nxala, it was Johannes Nxala, Wellington Fokazi and myself then proceeded on foot to the direction of the township. I later learnt from Wellington that the reason why we disembarked from that car was that Sebenzile wanted to do something very horrible to Mr Nxala." ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Sorry, who went back on foot, Wellington, that's the first applicant, yourself and who was the third person? MR MAKHURA Johannes Nxala, Sir. CHAIRPERSON Is that Joe? MR MAKHURA No, that's not Joe. CHAIRPERSON Oh, Johannes who? MR MAKHURA Johannes Nxala. CHAIRPERSON Oh, okay, so ...(intervention) MR MAKHURA You've Joe and Johannes Nxala on that case. CHAIRPERSON Oh yes, alright. MR MAKHURA "I later learnt from Wellington Fokazi that he wanted to take along this Johannes Nxala, away from Sebenzile. So for us to go back, the two or us to the car again to proceed to Natal. But before that can happen it seemed as if the car came to look for us. I heard AK47 gunshots. I was a little bit far away from the incident of the shooting of the police. Then since I heard the shots of the AK47, I said to the others: "Look let us proceed to the township, there seemed to be trouble there." I know when I hear AK47 gunshots trouble was there and I knew it was the people I was travelling with who were shooting. I want to make it clear to the Committee that one of an outstanding order from Polla Park was that at no stage was anybody from the Security Forces or whoever to disarm us or to take weapons from us, we were to shoot out our way. Then we proceeded towards the black township of Bohlokong. ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON How far away were you from the township when you started walking? MR MAKHURA I will probably say less than five kilometres, Sir. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, Mr Makhura, and the road that you had stopped on, was it the main road or was it a farm road or a side road or a back road? MR MAKHURA It was a main road, Sir. A main road, a road to a place called Harrismith. That's where we left the car, Sir. CHAIRPERSON Continue. MR MAKHURA "Then we proceeded towards the black township called Bohlokong. There seemed - there was a car which approached us at a fast speed, driven by white men and there were four blacks at the back of it. They were carrying ...(indistinct). That car came to an abrupt standstill in front of us. The man spoke, the white man, the driver, spoke to us in Sotho, yes in Sotho. He used even vulgar language which I'm not prepared to mention here. It's a very horrible and ugly word, Sir. The man pointed a firearm at us. By that time, Sir, I was armed with a pistol. My co-accused, Wellington Fokazi had a pistol too. The man pointed us with his firearm and ordered us to climb at the back of the car. It was an Isuzu car with an aerial and no canopy. The car then made a u-turn towards the direction of the tarred road to town. Well in my mind there was one thing, the man did not tell us where he was taking us to. The man pointed a firearm at us and the manner in which he was talking to us was not good, he was talking to us in a threatening way. Then we took a gravel road towards the tar road which leads to town, that's the Bethlehem town. I said to my co-accused: "Look here, before we come to that tarred road pull out your gun and shoot to scar this man." My co-accused, that's Wellington Fakazi did the same. He shot and scarred the man. He did not aim at his body. The car came to a standstill and the man got out of his car. I jumped out of that car and the man was already out pointing a firearm at me. I raised my hand in this gesture, in a surrendering way ..." ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Just for purposes of the record, the witness puts up both hands above his head in the usual hands-up stance. MR MAKHURA Yes, Sir. "Immediately after that first shot four blacks began to struggle with my co-accused, to wrestle the gun from him. They were not aware that I had a gun too. The driver of that car, that white man got out of the car and pointed a firearm at me. After realising that I was not carrying anything at all, he did not see that I was carrying a gun too, he went around the car, probably to go and shoot my co-accused. That's where I shot the man. I pulled out my pistol at the man with two bullets." DR TSOTSI Now these co-accused you're referring to, are these the other two men? Which co-accused are these? MR MAKHURA I'm referring to Wellington Fokazi because the other Johannes Nxala escaped, he ran away from the incident immediately after the car came to a standstill. CHAIRPERSON This man that you shot, was he a policeman or didn't you know? MR MAKHURA No, it later emerged in the Court that he was a farmer and I'm still going to talk a lot about this incident, Sir, after completing this. CHAIRPERSON Yes, continue. MR MAKHURA "Then I ran towards the township. My co-accused, that's Wellington Fokazi ran towards the township too. It must be noted by this Committee that immediately after I shot at the man, those four blacks who were struggling with my co-accused to wrestle the gun from him also ran away because they already discovered that I had a gun too. Then together with my co-accused we ran towards the black township, Bohlokong. We hid in a certain house there. I do not know that place, Sir, but one of the guys we found there subsequently sold us to the police. I was subsequently arrested, Sir." I believe I have got to go back to that incident I said I will talk about it, that's this second shooting of that farmer. "Sir, it emerged in the Court from the victim that he was not carrying a gun. I say the man was carrying a gun, Sir, right at the spot where he came driving that car fast to us. If he had no gun at all I was just going to run away from him because he was fat, he couldn't run after me but that threatening way of pointing a firearm at me caught me unaware and unbalanced, that is why I climbed at the back of the car. Now it emerged again - it is obvious that the man was taking me to the police station, it also emerged in the Court that the very same victim had already collected money from the bank to come and pay his workers. Sir, in 1992 it was during the height of the killing of farmers, I say now that man couldn't have gone to the bank to collect money without carrying a firearm. And it emerged again in the Court that that suitcase, that briefcase he was carrying disappeared at the scene of the shooting. So the only reason why I shot at that man was that he was taking me to the police station, to my enemy by that time ..." ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Do you know anything about the missing money bag, the bag with money? MR MAKHURA No, Sir, it only emerged that there was money in that bag and that money was taken by his wife when they came to collect the injured from the shooting spot. Sir one of the things which I say ...(intervention) DR TSOTSI How many times did you shoot at this white man? MR MAKHURA I shot him with two bullets, Sir. DR TSOTSI On what occasion, the same occasion or different occasions? MR MAKHURA No, on the same occasion. DR TSOTSI The same occasion. MR MAKHURA Yes. DR TSOTSI That is when he was taking you to, as you say to the police station. MR MAKHURA To the police station, yes, Sir. DR TSOTSI Now when you ran away from the car when he was - when you ran away from the car you didn't shoot at him? MR MAKHURA No, I did not shoot at him. DR TSOTSI Oh I see, alright. MR MAKHURA If I had other minds, Sir, I could have taken that car away from him because I know how to drive and the gun also but I wanted nothing from that man. The only thing I wanted was to neutralise him from taking me to the police station because those shots of AK47 I heard later, I mean I heard before, I was convinced that trouble was brewing. The man was taking me to the police station, Sir. I had to do everything with all my power to stop him from taking me to the police station, Sir. CHAIRPERSON Do you know who the man was that you shot? MR MAKHURA Pardon, Sir? CHAIRPERSON Do you know the man's name? MR MAKHURA Yes, Sir, he is Mr Collie. Well I need to go a little bit, Sir. "The operation to go and defend the people in Natal was not an MK operation, it was an operation of the Self Defence Units. Even though I am a member of Umkhonto weSizwe it was not an MK operation because MK suspended armed operations long ago, on the 6th of August 1990." CHAIRPERSON Whereabout were you headed to in Natal? MR MAKHURA I cannot tell you, Sir, I really don't know. In fact there was this so-called chain of command, there was some of the things which I was not supposed to know. CHAIRPERSON So was Ndabeni, the deceased Ndabeni, was he the leader of that operation? MR MAKHURA Yes, I will say two of them, Nozulu and Sebenzile were the commanders and they knew each and everything about the trip. DR TSOTSI Where is Nozulu? MR MAKHURA I don't know, Sir, we tried to establish his whereabouts for a long time, probably for about two years, we couldn't get hold of him. DR TSOTSI When ...(indistinct) MR MAKHURA Pardon? DR TSOTSI When last did you see him? MR MAKHURA That was when he escaped on the very same day, the 2nd of April 1992. As for Joe, he was shot dead in Germiston and his body was flown to, was taken to Mozambique to go and be buried there. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mhlaba? MR MHLABA Mr Makhura, do you know anything concerning the shooting of Cornelius Oosthuizen and Hermanus Johannes Joubert? MR MAKHURA Well Sir, that incident happened when I was a little bit far away from the actual spot. I don't know what transpired there, I only heard the shots of, the sound of AK47s Sir. I was not near that spot. MR MHLABA Is this all you can tell the Committee about your involvement in this incident? MR MAKHURA Well there are other points which I believe are going to be very important to the Committee. "Sir, I want to go back to Polla Park. The people of Polla Park lived under painful situations, Sir. Sometimes it happened - I'm even going to involve the involvement of the police in that violence, Sir. Sometimes the Security Forces would come during the night to attack people, to kill people and leaving behind red bands, now red bands were normally worn by Inkatha people from the hostels, to create a picture that it was the IFP which came to attack people at Polla Park. Now in turn we will collect our arms and go and attack them ..." CHAIRPERSON You mean IFP? MR MAKHURA Yes, Sir. "It later emerged, after some of the policemen were gunned down there in Polla Park, that they were doing and they were engaged in this type of action." MR MHLABA Do you know anything, Mr Makhura, about the incident involving the attempted murder of Bruce Rutherford Collie and the attempted murder Christoffel Coetzee and Henry Sidney Chris Nortje? MR MAKHURA No, Sir, I was not near that shooting, I was not near it, Sir. CHAIRPERSON What happened to Mr Collie who you shot? MR MAKHURA He was injured, he's testified against me in the Court, Sir. CHAIRPERSON Whereabout did you strike him? MR MAKHURA From the medical files I seem to have shot him on his stomach. MR MHLABA Is it your case, Mr Makhura, that in shooting the victim you were furthering the aims of the political organisation? That is you were trying to secure a safe passage to, or rather safe transit to your destination where you were supposed to execute your mandate? MR MAKHURA That's correct, Sir. MR MHLABA Do you have any other thing to add in support of your application, other than what you have already told the Committee? MR MAKHURA I don't understand Sir, do you mean anything I want to tell the Committee, apart from what I've been saying? MR MHLABA If you have told the Committee everything insofar as it relates to the incident which you are applying for amnesty for, I would want to find out from you if there is anything which you feel may have been left out which may be persuasive towards the Committee deciding in your favour? MR MAKHURA Thank you, Sir. I want to bring to the attention of this Committee the following points "Two of my comrades were shot and killed on that day. One of them, Mac Gregor, was buried by the police without the consent of his family. We don't know where my comrade has been buried. The family of Mac Gregor came to claim the body at Bethlehem. His brother was detained and subsequently referred to come to Welkom to come and look for the body in Welkom." CHAIRPERSON In Welkom where we are? MR MAKHURA Yes, Sir. CHAIRPERSON But Welkom is very far from Bethlehem. MR MAKHURA That is why we are so surprised, because the body was probably in Bethlehem. CHAIRPERSON Do you know, well you wouldn't know of firsthand knowledge from what you've told us but do you know whether MacGregor died on the scene of the shooting or whether he died later in a hospital or whatever? MR MAKHURA He died on the scene, Sir, but immediately after the shooting of the police where I was not involved, the people I was travelling with then ran with that car, they drove that car towards Ficksburg, then they were pursued by the police. That is where a shootout ensued, Sir, between the police and the people I was travelling with. Mac Gregor and Sebenzile were shot and killed somewhere there. I managed to go to the mortuary to go and identify the bodies Sir. All of them were riddled with bullet holes. In the Court during my trial there was an album, a photo album of the deceased, they were lying in the fields near their rifles. So at the end of the day I will personally request the Committee to please help in finding the deceased who was buried at a place we don't know. Secondly, Sir, one of my co-accused, Thozamile Clement Ndabeni had to undergo a surgical operation of nine stitches immediately after being arrested on that day. Now the police said in the Court that the man drank poison where he was hiding. It was not true, Sir. It later emerged that he was assaulted with a rifle, with a barrel of a rifle and he had to undergo nine surgical operations. DR TSOTSI Mr Makhura, can I take you back to - I just want to clarify something, can I take you back to the moment where you disembarked from this van. Did I hear you correctly that after you and Fokazi disembarked from this van you never met your colleagues thereafter until you were arrested? MR MAKHURA That's correct, Sir. DR TSOTSI And do you know whether this van left the place where it stopped after you disembarked or whether it remained there? Did you leave it there when you walked back to the township? MR MAKHURA Are you referring to the police van or the van which was driven by the farmer, Sir? DR TSOTSI I'm referring to the van in which you were being conveyed with your colleagues, with the other applicant and the people you've mentioned, Nozulu, Wellington and Sebenzile. MR MAKHURA Immediately after we disembarked from that car, that's the car we travelled by from Polla Park to Natal, immediately after we left that car ...(end of tape) ... in fact it seemed as if Sebenzile was worried that we were not coming back, we were taking our time. He seemed to have come to look for us. That's where the shooting took place, Sir. MR MHLABA Thank you, Chair, I don't have any other questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MHLABA CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Mhlaba. Mr Mapoma, do you have any questions to ask the witness? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA Mr Makhura, in your amnesty application you apply for amnesty for murder amongst other things, for whose murder to you apply for amnesty? MR MAKHURA Sir, from Polla Park the mission was to go and defend people in Natal. There was an outstanding order that at any stage, at no stage must anyone, the Security Forces or whoever, must take weapons from us. For the reason of common purpose I knew that those weapons were going to be involved in war. Secondly, ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Sorry to interrupt, Mr Makhura, but before it slips my mind, you say the standing order was that you mustn't be dispossessed of weapons, whose standing order, the SDUs? MR MAKHURA Yes, that's SDU standing order, Sir. CHAIRPERSON Continue. MR MAKHURA Now a political mission was put on our shoulder. I am aware that I did not participate in actually pulling the trigger when the police died but since I loaded those arms, since I loaded the magazines, since I was with my comrades, all of them and since I knew where we were going and I was lastly charged with the very same murder, because of common purpose I'm applying amnesty even for those murders, Sir, for that murder I mean. MR MAPOMA For whose murder? For whose murder, Sir? MR MAKHURA I'm referring to the murder of a policeman, Sir. MR MAPOMA Do I understand you to mean the murder of Cornelius Oosthuizen who died at the shootout? MR MAKHURA I beg your pardon, Sir? MR MAPOMA Do I understand you to mean the murder of Cornelius Oosthuizen? MR MAKHURA Yes, Sir. MR MAPOMA Is that the murder for which you ask for amnesty? MR MAKHURA Yes, in my case there is only one murder, Sir, from the other side of the police, then two murders from our side. MR MAPOMA So do I understand you to mean that you associate yourself with the act of killing of Mr Oosthuizen? MR MAKHURA Yes, Sir. MR MAPOMA Now in Court it was pointed out that at the place you were caught you were intending to commit robbery in a farm belonging to Mr Osmond, what do you say to that? MR MAKHURA Well Sir, I believe I'm going to be long there. Highly trained members of ANC like us on that day couldn't have just gone to one man to go and rob him even, because it later emerged in the Court that we were intending to rob a certain house. We cannot carry five AK47s plus 10 magazines to go and rob one man, Sir. And even the very same victim, not victim but the man whom it is alleged that we were intending to rob did not know anything about this. It is not correct, Sir, that we were intending to rob anyone. MR MAPOMA Where exactly was this vehicle which stopped and which you left, where exactly was it, was it on the public road? MR MAKHURA Where I left the van, Sir? MR MAPOMA Yes. MR MAKHURA Are you referring to the van I travelled by from Polla Park? MR MAPOMA Yes. MR MAKHURA I left it at the side of the road. I don't know whether it's a freeway or, but it's a national road to Harrismith, that's where we left that van saying that we are coming. We want - its was Wellington Fokazi who said we will be coming back again. Then from my knowledge they seemed to have waited for us at the spot but after realising that we were not coming in time, the van seemed to have made a u-turn to go and look for us. That is where the shooting took place, Sir. MR MAPOMA Thank you, no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA CHAIRPERSON Doctor Tsotsi, do you have any questions - sorry, sorry, before I do that, Mr Mhlaba, do you have any re-examination? RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MHLABA Just one aspect. You have told the Committee of having heard a sound of AK47s thundering, are you able to give us an indication where that sound was coming from, was it from the position where you have left the van or can you not tell? MR MAKHURA Since we were facing north, the sound of that rifle was coming at our back, from the south. CHAIRPERSON I know it's difficult but through your training and your experience, could you determine more or less how far away the shooting was from you? MR MAKHURA Well I will say probably less than two kilometres, Sir. MR MHLABA Thank you, Chair, I've got no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MHLABA CHAIRPERSON Doctor Tsotsi, do you have any questions which you'd like to put to the witness? DR TSOTSI No. CHAIRPERSON Mr Sibanyoni, do you have any questions you'd like to put to the witness? MR SIBANYONI Just the same question, Mr Chairperson. Mr Makhura, there was a person in Court, Thabo Motaung who apparently told the Court that he's aware of the plan, of the conspiracy to go and rob this Osmond family, do you know the reason why he told the Court all those things? MR MAKHURA Sir, I'm going to mention something pertaining to what you are asking me, Sir. This very same man you are talking about was even younger than my younger brother in age. Now this man came to Kroonstad when I was on trial. He came to the identification parade to come and identify some of the people I was with. Now he said when he came to the identification parade, that he knew nothing about the case but when I appeared in Court there was the man, a witness against me. I do not know that man. It later emerged that the man has since passed away, even though his death is still a question mark. To further answer you, Sir, my co-accused who are based in Leeuwkop Prison, used to get visits from high ranking members of the ANC. For example, comrade Ronnie Kasrils, Paul Machatile, Winnie Madikizela-Mandela, Robert McBride, ...(indistinct). Now it seems as if something was discussed because this Thabo Motaung visited one of my co-accused in Kroonstad. The reason why he visited my co-accused in Kroonstad was that he wanted to come and tell him that he lied in the Court. There is even a letter which is in the possession of my co-accused Fusi Simon Mofokeng, where this man it's alleged that he was promised, I don't know 75.000,00. The letter is in our possession, Sir. It's with my co-accused, Fusi Mofokeng. Now it is very clear that that man lied, he did not know me, Sir. I had only less than four weeks in South Africa, it was for the first time I went to that place, Sir. Even at the parade that man did not point at me, he did not identify me, Sir. CHAIRPERSON When was the very first time that you saw him? MR MAKHURA That was in Kroonstad identify parade, Sir. CHAIRPERSON So he wasn't - when you said you stopped off in Bethlehem and while you waited for Nxala and Ndabeni to go and sort out their money problems you didn't see him at that stage? MR MAKHURA No, no, no, negative, Sir, I did not see him, Sir. MR SIBANYONI Lastly, you say he was younger than your youngest brother, how old is your youngest brother? MR MAKHURA My youngest brother is about 27 years, somewhere there, I'm not sure, it's about 27 years. MR SIBANYONI Thank you, Mr Chairperson, no further questions. CHAIRPERSON When you stopped the vehicle that you were in, when you and your co-applicant got out together with Nxala and starting walking away, was the bonnet of that vehicle opened at all? MR MAKHURA Sir, I did not notice, I did not notice that, Sir. CHAIRPERSON Did you have any difficulty with the vehicle, mechanical difficulty, problems? MR MAKHURA Yes, I will probably say that because when we left that garage there seemed to have been a problem but I think the driver can explain it, but something was wrong with that car even though I'm not sure what was that, Sir, but something was wrong. CHAIRPERSON Do you know Tshokolo Joseph Mokoena? MR MAKHURA Well he is one of my co-accused, Sir. It was for the first time I see him in Court. CHAIRPERSON When did you meet the fourth applicant, that is Fusi Simon Mofokeng? MR MAKHURA Fusi Simon Mofokeng is related to Johannes Nxala. Now when we went to Bohlokong township, that's where Fusi Mofokeng stayed. We found him in that house. When we waited for this man to collect his money, something like that, Sir. That was the first time I see, I mean I saw the man. CHAIRPERSON When was the first time that you heard of the Osman's farm? MR MAKHURA I heard about it in Court, Sir. CHAIRPERSON Were you then convicted of the murder of Mr Oosthuizen and the attempted murder of Mr Collie and the other attempted murder as well as possession of firearms? MR MAKHURA Yes, Sir. CHAIRPERSON What were you sentenced to? MR MAKHURA Presently I am serving life sentence plus 31, Sir, but there are different charges and their sentences. I don't remember the first charge, it seemed to be six years. Then as for murder it's life sentence. Attempted murder of Mr Collie is 12 years. Possession of firearm and ammunition seemed to be 3 years. I am not sure Sir, about this but it's roughly that. CHAIRPERSON You said that it was common practice for one SDU to assist another SDU in the Thokoza area, you said you used to go to Meadowlands and Polla Park and Thokoza and other places, was it common to assist other SDUs far away like in Natal? MR MAKHURA Yes, it was common, Sir. Even in Transkei, Sir. Some of our cadres used to go there because I was not the only member of MK at that place, there were other members of MK involved with the SDU there, Sir. So there were so many missions which were issued to different operators. CHAIRPERSON After the shooting of Mr Collie by yourself, what did you do with your firearm, your pistol? MR MAKHURA Before I was arrested I heard guns cocking, rifles, then I threw my firearm not far away from me but in the grass, then it was subsequently found by the police. CHAIRPERSON Can you distinguish the difference between the sound of an AK47 shot and let's say an R1 or an R4 shot? MR MAKHURA Yes, Sir. CHAIRPERSON Do you say that the AK47 has a distinct sound? MR MAKHURA Yes, it has got a unique sound, Sir. Probably anyone who does not know the sound of an AK47 will start asking what type of sound is this. It's got a unique sound. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mhlaba, do you have any questions arising out of questions that have been put by members of the panel? MR MHLABA No, thanks, I don't have any questions. NO QUESTIONS BY MR MHLABA CHAIRPERSON Mr Mapoma, do you have any questions arising? MR MAPOMA No, Sir, I have no questions. NO QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Makhura, that concludes your testimony, you may stand down now. MR MAKHURA Thank you. WITNESS EXCUSED