amntrans AMNESTY HEARING 1998-11-17 2 PHILLIP MOSIA, MOKETE BENJAMIN MAKAU & TSELANE JACOBINA MOSEBI AM 3127/96 MURDER OF TWO POLICEMEN - https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=52980&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1998/98111618 _wlk_981117wel.htm MR MHLABA Thank you, Chair. May I now call on Mr Phillip Mosia? PHILLIP MOSIA (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Mr Mhlaba? EXAMINATION BY MR MHLABA Thank you, Chair. Mr Mosia, can you confirm that you were born during December 1959, on the 1st? MR MOSIA That is correct. MR MHLABA And can you give the Committee your educational background, up to what standard did you attend school? MR MOSIA Up to standard two, Sir. MR MHLABA You were involved in a crime where two police officers were killed and at the time of the commission of this offence you were in the company of your co-applicants, being Jack Mofokeng, Solomon Sera and Isaac Mohomane, is that correct? MR MOSIA That is correct, Sir. MR MHLABA You are presently serving a prison term in respect of the various offences, is that correct? MR MOSIA Yes, that is correct. MR MHLABA You have applied for amnesty in respect of the very offences, can you explain to the Committee whether you are the one who completed this form or was it done on your behalf by somebody else? MR MOSIA Somebody helped me to fill out this form. MR MHLABA Can you tell us who helped you? MR MOSIA It was the ANC desk, Sir. MR MHLABA Where was this form completed, did they visit you in prison or did you attend to their offices? MR MOSIA They paid me a visit in prison. MR MHLABA Was that pursuant to a request from yourself or can you explain how it came? MR MOSIA They came to all comrades who were in maximum prison. MR MHLABA So in other words you're telling this Committee that you were known by the ANC desk to be a member of the organisation? MR MOSIA That is correct. MR MHLABA The reason on which you are applying for amnesty is that the offences in question were committed with a political objective and you've already indicated that you belonged to the African National Congress. Can you tell the Committee of your involvement in the ANC? MR MOSIA I was a member of the ANC as from 1986. I became a full member of the ANC in 1990. I became involved with SDUs in 1991. MR MHLABA And while a member of the SDU, who was your immediate commander? MR MOSIA It was Isaac Mohomane, Sir. MR MHLABA Were you getting instructions from any other persons or were you getting instructions only from Isaac Mohomane? MR MOSIA I received instructions from Isaac Mohomane, and that I should keep the guns in my place. MR MHLABA So the guns were kept at your place, is that correct? MR MOSIA Yes, that is correct. MR MHLABA When did you come to know Isaac Mohomane, before joining the SDUs or only when you were recruited to the SDUs? MR MOSIA I knew him for a long time because he was attending school next to where I grew up. MR MHLABA Did you know or were you ever told of him being a suspect in a robbery case? MR MOSIA Do you mean did I know or I was informed? MR MHLABA Did you know, or yes, informed and gained knowledge of that. MR MOSIA He told me that he was arrested for a robbery case and then he was just a suspect, therefore he was acquitted for that case. MR MHLABA When did you come to know of that, when did he tell you, was it after this operation or was it before, that is the operation of the 5th of June '93? MR MOSIA That is before the operation because he was arrested and then he received bail, then he came to my house and informed about that particular case. That he was arrested together with unknown people who were policemen, then I was surprised. MR MHLABA Did he tell you was the investigating officer in that matter? MR MOSIA No, he did not. MR MHLABA On this very operation, can you tell this Committee how it was planned and for how long were you involved in the planning of the very operation on the 5th of June '93? Was it planned a night before the operation or some weeks, months, before the operation? MR MOSIA Which operation do you mean? MR MHLABA I'm talking about the incident on the 5th of June '93, where two police officers were shot dead. MR MOSIA He was talking about it on Thursday, then they met at my place, then he said all of us who were members of SDUs must meet on Friday, then they came on Friday. Then he left this 15 shooter gun at my place and the 38. On Thursday they came together with other SDU members. Solomon Sera was not present. Mofokeng arrived and Sera arrived later. He came with a car. They went together with Isaac Mohomane to go and identify targets. They left. After some time they returned. It was at dusk. Then they informed us they were able to identify a police car but they don't know how many policemen were inside that van, so we should go there. So he took this 15 shooter, he gave it to comrade Jack Mofokeng. We went into the car. We went to that place, shopping centre, we parked, then we saw that police van within other cars. Then he instructed me to go inside so that I will be able to identify those policemen and how many there are. I bought cigarettes, then I looked at those policemen, then I was able to identify them. Then I bought the cigarettes, then able to identify the three policemen. I went outside. There were two male police and one female police. After informing them that after some time they informed me to go again inside the restaurant. I went there for the second time. Then I was able to see that they were finishing their meal, they were just about to go outside. Then I went outside, informed my comrades and said: "It looks like they are just about to leave". He told Solomon Sera to leave and park the car so that we'd get the car ready. After some time the police went outside the restaurant, then they looked as to whether who were going straight to the car. I saw only two policemen going direct to the car, that is where they started shooting them. I was at the back sitting down looking at them. After they were shot at we went to the car where Sera was and then we went inside the car. We dropped comrade Mohomane at his place and comrade Mofokeng at his place. After a day, that is on Saturday, Solomon Sera brought the gun, that is a 9mm to my place, then he told me that there are police and soldiers who are going inside all the houses in the vicinity, who were searching. Then he said I should remove the gun in my place. A certain friend of mine whose name is Tshabalala arrived then I requested him to hide that gun at his or her place. I told him or her that I would come and pick up that gun, I don't know when. We were arrested on the 9th and the police were looking for the gun. That is where I led the police to Tshabalala. That is where the gun was identified as SDU property because I was given that gun by Isaac Mohomane. MR MHLABA You have told the Committee of you going into the restaurant to identify the police officers, did you recognise or know any of the police officers inside the restaurant? MR MOSIA I did not know their identity, I only knew them as police. I saw on their faces that they were police. MR MHLABA I want to take you back to the moment when you joined the SDUs. Did you become a member of the ANC before you joined the SDUs or did you join the SDUs first and then became a member of the ANC? MR MOSIA I became the member of the ANC and thereafter I became a member of the SDU. I was a member of the ANC before I became a member of the SDU. MR MHLABA Do you know whether the people who were being recruited to be SDU members needed to be of necessity members of the ANC? MR MOSIA That is correct. The way comrade Mohomane explained it to us I had faith in him. MR MHLABA So were you satisfied that this very operation, the incident of the killing these police officers, had the blessings of the command structures of the ANC? MR MOSIA He told us before that he had already taken the decision with the leadership that on that particular, on Friday, we have to take out that operation of killing the policemen. MR MHLABA So is it your case that in carrying out this operation you genuinely believed that you were furthering the interests of the African National Congress? MR MOSIA That's correct. MR MHLABA Is there anything you want to add to the Committee in support of your application, other than the facts which you've already put before the Committee? MR MOSIA I'm happy that this Committee has afforded me this opportunity that I should meet the members of the deceased whom I did not know so that I can ask for forgiveness from him for what had happened. It was not my intention, that is how things were during the apartheid days, we were involved in a war. Police were fighting against the community and the community were fighting against the police. The police were in cahoots with the IFP in killing members of the community. I am therefore thankful to this Committee for affording me this opportunity that I'm able to meet members of the deceased. MR MHLABA I am noting in paragraph 9 - I'm referring the Panel to page 7 of the paginated bundle, paragraph 9(a)(i) of your application forms where you indicated, you identified the act or omission or offence as murder whereas you have indicated here from the evidence which was tendered it would appear that there were two counts of murder and also you indicated that you used to possess firearms which you did not have a licence to carry. Is it your desire to bring an application to the Committee to amend your application form to include the other count of murder as well as the unlawful possession of a firearm. MR MOSIA The person who helped me to fill in this ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON I think the question was, do you wish to amend your application form to include the two murders and the unlawful possession of firearms and ammunition? That is the question, do you wish to? Because it only says one murder here, or it only just mentions murder, do you want to amend it to include all the offences that were committed by your group and yourself on the 5th of June 1993? MR MOSIA That's correct. CHAIRPERSON Any objection, Mr Sesele? MR SESELE No objection, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mapoma? MR MAPOMA No objection, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you. Mr Mhlaba, we'll then amend the application form accordingly to include all the offences committed on that day and also in respect of which the applicant was convicted of. MR MHLABA Thank you, Chair, that concludes the testimony of Mr Mosia. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MHLABA CHAIRPERSON I've been requested to have a short adjournment. I think I'd like to finish this application though, the evidence seeing that we, is there going to be other evidence to be called? We may as well find that out now. MR MHLABA There is no other evidence from the applicants. CHAIRPERSON Mr Sesele, do you intend calling other witnesses? MR SESELE ...(inaudible) the issue up with the families and then I'll come back to the Committee immediately thereafter, Mr Chair. CHAIRPERSON I think at this stage if we could then just take a very short adjournment and then we will conclude the evidence of this applicant today and then decide whether if there is further evidence whether to continue today or tomorrow. But we'll take a short adjournment at this stage, just 10 minutes or 5 to 10 minutes, thank you. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION SOLOMON MOSIA (s.u.o.) CHAIRPERSON Mr Sesele, do you have any questions to put to the witness? MR SESELE Thank you, Mr Chairman. I do have some questions and then I just want to indicate that I won't be calling any other witness hereafter. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR SESELE When you were recruited into this SDU by Mr Mohomane did you know whether you were going to be operating underground or be known to the community? MR MOSIA ...(inaudible) INTERPRETER The speaker's mike is not on. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, it you could repeat what you said now Mr Mosia, because the interpreters couldn't hear what you were saying. MR MOSIA I was known by the community that I was a member of the SDU. MR SESELE You say you knew of the pending case against Mr Mohomane and he knew of it before the 5th of June 1993. MR MOSIA Yes, that is correct, I knew. MR SESELE When he told you, were you the only two or were there other members of the Self Defence Unit? MR MOSIA We were at my place. CHAIRPERSON I think the question was, did the other members of your unit, your Self Defence Unit, know of the pending case against your commander? MR MOSIA The were people but he told me from the side, no people heard what he was telling me. MR SESELE Did he also not tell you - did he also tell you who was handling that case? MR MOSIA He did not tell me about the person responsible for the investigation of that case, he told me that he was arrested and he received bail for the robbery case. MR SESELE Did you attend regular meetings with Mr Mohomane and the other unit members? MR MOSIA Yes, because they were attending those meetings in my place. MR SESELE At page 10 of your application, at page 10 of the bundle, paragraph 11(a) it is stated as follows "At meetings which were held at Phuthaditjhaba Hall and stadium, it was declared that Qwa Qwa Police were enemies of the people. There was no direct order from any leader of the ANC but we acted upon the declaration." Were you present at such meetings at the hall and at the stadium where the declaration was made? MR MOSIA Yes, that is correct. MR SESELE Who made such declarations? MR MOSIA That is Steve Potlela. MR SESELE Did Mr Mohomane make any such declaration also? MR MOSIA Yes, he did. MR SESELE What do you mean when you say there was no direct order from any leader of the ANC? MR MOSIA What kind of instructions, Sir, or order? MR MOSIA In this paragraph that was referred to in your application it is said, and I'll read from it, this is paragraph 11(a) as it appears on page 10 of the bundle and this is what your application states "There was no direct order from any leader of the ANC." And now what Mr Sesele is asking you is, what do you mean by that? Is that correct? MR SESELE That's correct, Mr Chairman. MR MOSIA The order came from Mr Mohomane who was the commander of the Self Defence Unit. CHAIRPERSON That's what you've said but what did you mean to say when you said in your application form "There was no direct order from any leader of the ANC." MR MOSIA Maybe we had a misunderstanding with the person who was helping me to fill up this form. MR SESELE Who was helping you to fill the form? MR MOSIA That is comrade Mongesi. MR SESELE You have also submitted a letter to the Amnesty Committee, and that is page 13 of the bundle. The last paragraph, second sentence reads as follows "We acted on behalf of the ANC. We were carrying out orders from our authorities, that is why I justify my crime as a political one." Do you remember making such a statement? MR MOSIA Yes. MR SESELE And this letter is dated the 29th of June, whereas ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON It's 1998. MR SESELE ... whereas your application form is dated the 26th September 1996. Now between the two dates how come you further submit this letter wherein you now allege that orders came from the authorities in the ANC? MR MOSIA It's because I received a letter from the TRC. They were asking me three, four questions. The questions generally were requesting that why should I say this act is a political act and then I should give them the case number. That is why I wrote this letter in response to the letter I received from the TRC. MR SESELE I put it to you that your taking part in the killing of the two police officers was an attempt to get the investigating officer off Mr Mohomane's back. MR MOSIA I don't identify myself with that armed robbery case because I don't know anything about that. MR SESELE I'm also putting to you that the rest of the members of the SDUs who are applicants in this matter knew about the robbery case against Mr Mohomane, that is why they participated in this killing. MR MOSIA I don't believe that they know because they are not staying with him in the township. I am the one who was staying with him in the township because he was coming regularly at my place because he was attending school next to my place. He used to come to me regularly. MR SESELE You have also said that - if I remember well, you have also said that you saw the policemen in the restaurant by their faces. In other words you saw by their faces that they were policemen, is that right? MR MOSIA Because I knew the policemen who were working within our township. MR SESELE So you knew the two officers before the incident? MR MOSIA Yes, I knew them. ...(no English translation) MR SESELE Isn't it true that you specifically targeted the two officers because of the grudge that Mr Mohomane had with one of them? MR MOSIA No, Sir, I don't know as to whether they were associated with the armed robbery case. There were not two, there were three but when they went out to the car I saw the two of them. Inside the restaurant there were three. MR SESELE Thank you, Mr Chairman, no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SESELE CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Sesele. Mr Mapoma, do you have any questions? MR MAPOMA Thank you, Mr Chairman, I have no questions. NO QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA CHAIRPERSON Any re-examination, Mr Mhlaba? MR MHLABA None, Mr Chairman. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MHLABA CHAIRPERSON Doctor Tsotsi, any questions? DR TSOTSI No questions. CHAIRPERSON Mr Sibanyoni, any questions? MR SIBANYONI Only a single question, Mr Chairperson. Would you say this mission to go and attack the police was Mr Mohomane's idea? MR MOSIA Yes, he's the one who came with this idea then he said it came from the ANC offices, from the one who was senior to him who instructed him. So he came to us to instruct us to carry out this operation. MR SIBANYONI But you personally do not know who is that one who is senior than Mohomane, am I correct? MR MOSIA No, I don't know that person. He told us that he would introduce us to this person who instructed him but we have never met him. MR SIBANYONI When you saw these police people in the restaurant, was it for the first time you met them or were they people you have seen before? MR MOSIA I was not seeing them for the first time, I knew them because they were working in our township because we used to meet them time and again. MR SIBANYONI Did you also know who they are or who they were? MR MOSIA Yes, I knew their identity. MR SIBANYONI You knew that one of them was Mr Makau? MR MOSIA Mr Makau. MR SIBANYONI Makau, yes. MR MOSIA Yes, that is correct, I knew him. MR SIBANYONI No further questions, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Who were recruited by to join the SDU? MR MOSIA That is comrade Mohomane, Sir. CHAIRPERSON Did you belong to any other SDU units other than this one consisting of you and the other applicants in this matter? MR MOSIA I was a member of the ANC, then I was introduced to the SDU by Mr Mohomane. CHAIRPERSON Did you work with any other units of the SDU, other than this one consisting of yourself and the other applicants? MR MOSIA We had many SDUs who used to meet at my place. We were just discussing generally with them. CHAIRPERSON So you didn't do any other operations with them? MR MOSIA No, Sir. CHAIRPERSON Were any of the firearms that you kept legal, I mean in the sense that they were licensed and their possession was legal? MR MOSIA Only guns which were brought my Mr Mohomane, then he told me that they belonged to the organisation. I didn't know anything as to whether they had licences or not. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mhlaba, do you have any questions arising out of questions that have been put by members of the panel? MR MHLABA Thank you, I've got no questions, Mr Chairman. NO QUESTIONS BY MR MHLABA CHAIRPERSON Mr Sesele? MR SESELE Thank you, Mr Chairman, I have no questions. NO QUESTIONS BY MR SESELE CHAIRPERSON Mr Mapoma? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA Just one, Chairperson. Mr Mosia, you have just told the Committee that you did not participate in any other operation except for the one in this application, do you remember that? MR MOSIA That is correct. MR MAPOMA Are you serious? MR MOSIA Yes, I'm serious, Sir, because the one which I was together with Kubeka and Motlokoa I was not found guilty, I was acquitted. Therefore it is very difficult to talk about that before this Commission. MR MAPOMA Thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you, that concludes your testimony, you may stand down. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON Mr Mhlaba? MR MHLABA Thank you, Chair. I am not ready to address the Committee now, nor am I in a position to indicate at this very stage whether this will conclude the testimony on behalf of all the applicants. CHAIRPERSON Do you wish then to postpone till tomorrow? MR MHLABA I will be so happy. CHAIRPERSON Yes. I see that it's now after half past four, we'll then postpone this matter until tomorrow. What time will be convenient, gentlemen? MR MHLABA 9 o'clock will be convenient for me or even earlier if it so pleases the Committee. MR SESELE I will be available, Mr Chairman, from 9 o'clock or even earlier, thank you. CHAIRPERSON I think then if we can postpone to 9 o'clock, would that suit you? We'll postpone this matter then till 9 o'clock tomorrow, either to receive further evidence, we don't know or alternatively if that is not the case then for legal submissions to be made, submissions to be made by the legal representatives. We'll then adjourn until tomorrow at 9 o'clock in the morning, thank you. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS