amntrans AMNESTY HEARING 1998-11-23 PRETORIA 1 ISAAC BUTI RADEBE AM 7172/97 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=52990&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1998/9811231210_pr_981123th.htm MR SIBEKO At this stage I will call Isaac Buti Radebe. CHAIRPERSON Is that number 7172/97, Isaac Buti Radebe? MR SIBEKO That is correct, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Can you just or perhaps I should just ask you, are your full names Isaac Buti Radebe? MR RADEBE Yes, that is so. CHAIRPERSON Have you got any objection to taking the oath? ISAAC BUTI RADEBE (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Thank you, you may be seated. Mr Sibeko? EXAMINATION BY MR SIBEKO Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr Radebe, you also applied for amnesty, is that correct? MR RADEBE Yes, it is so. MR SIBEKO Have you applied in your capacity as an ordinary SDU member of as a member of the Committee of Seven? MR RADEBE In my capacity as a member of the Committee of Seven. MR SIBEKO In that even do you confirm or did you listen or did you hear everything that was said by Mr Glen Vilakazi, the applicant who has just left the stage? MR RADEBE Yes, I did. MR SIBEKO Did you understand him and you confirm what he said to be true? MR RADEBE Yes, indeed, I do agree with him. MR SIBEKO Is there perhaps anything which you would want to add which you think he left out in his testimony? MR RADEBE Truly speaking, Mr Vilakazi has already divulged every truth and I do agree and concur to everything he has said. MR SIBEKO So I assume that you don't have anything to add at this stage? MR RADEBE Yes, there is nothing else that I would add. ADV GCABASHE Can I just get a bit of clarity? Mr Radebe, are you saying that you two lived at Thabanzimbi and the committee that Mr Vilakazi spoke about operated in Thabanzimbi and you were a member of that committee, all of those things? MR RADEBE This Committee of Seven is a committee to which I belonged and I was a member and often at times I used to work hand-in-hand with Mr Vilakazi and with the others. ADV GCABASHE So you are saying you are from a different area, you lived in a different area, not in Thabanzimbi? Just to explain that to me please. If you could actually just explain whether all the members were from one area or all of you were from different areas, just to help me with that. MR RADEBE All the members of the Committee of Seven were people who resided in one section at Thabanzimbi. ADV GCABASHE And Thabanzimbi which was part of the greater Thokoza area, was one of the sections? MR RADEBE This Thabanzimbi is part of Thokoza, it's a section within Thokoza. ADV GCABASHE Then when Mr Vilakazi talks of assisting other sectors or other sectors assisting you, please explain where those sectors fitted in, were they members of the committee or did they have their own committees of seven or five or whatever? If you could help me with that. MR RADEBE These other sections, I will not have proper knowledge as to whether they had a committee which operated as ours but one thing I know is that those sections had commanders which would command their soldiers. So when we talk about helping these other sections we will be going there in a call by that particular section because now they were being attacked. ADV GCABASHE Thank you, Mr Sibeko. MR SIBEKO Thank you. Sir, so you are applying for amnesty because you were part of the Committee which facilitated the acquisition of arms, is that so? MR RADEBE Yes, it is so. MR SIBEKO You confirm that you just like Mr Vilakazi were not at any stage involved in the direct conflict situation, that is where shootings occurred you were not at any stage part of the patrolling squad or the guards? MR RADEBE I do confirm that I together with the other committee members never took part or were involved in shooting people. We were a committee which sort of facilitated and administered the community matters but to engage in an act of shooting, we did not. MR SIBEKO No further questions for the witness, Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SIBEKO CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Sibeko. Advocate Steenkamp? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY ADV STEENKAMP Thank you, Mr Chairman. Sir, am I understanding you correctly, you are also applying for the possession and the buying of firearms? Can you maybe give us more detail, was this also 21 firearms, AK47s or exactly what was it? MR RADEBE Would you please repeat your last part of your question? ADV STEENKAMP Sorry, Sir, are you also applying then for possession, illegal possession of firearms and the buying of them, like the previous witness, of those 21 AK47s? MR RADEBE Yes, I am applying for amnesty because we purchased such firearms which were not licensed, this is why I am here applying for amnesty. ADV STEENKAMP In 1993, according to your application, your committee had adopted a policy called "A killer must be killed" and as a result of that a number of people were killed, is that correct? MR RADEBE That policy yes was adopted but as to whether there were many people who were killed, that is not true or it's not so. What I know is one incident of Twala who was shot subsequently and that was it. ADV STEENKAMP Was that as a direct result of your policy that that person was killed? We also heard of a Lucky who was also killed as a result of this policy, is that correct? MR RADEBE I will agree to what you have said, it was as a result of this policy that was adopted that led to Lucky's death. ADV STEENKAMP Now my question to you is Sir, do you take any responsibility for the killing of this person or not? MR RADEBE I see myself bearing no responsibility with regard to the killing of this particular person, so that I will not sit here and say I was involved directly in this incident that led to his killing, I have no responsibility whatsoever. ADV STEENKAMP Thank you, Mr Chairman, no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV STEENKAMP ADV SANDI Is there any other killing, Mr Radebe, for which you would not take responsibility? MR RADEBE There is no other killing except for the one I've already addressed shortly. ADV SANDI When you joined the Committee of Seven, were you a member of the ANC? MR RADEBE Yes, I was elected into this committee as a member of ANC. ADV SANDI Were you always present when your group, the Committee of Seven, negotiated with John with the view to securing arms from him? Were you always present when this happened? INTERPRETER Please repeat the last part of your questions, we had somebody disturbing us. ADV SANDI When your group contacted John with the view to get these firearms from him, were you also present, were you physically present? MR RADEBE No, I was not there. I was not present, in other words. ADV SANDI Did you ever have the opportunity to see any of these firearms? MR RADEBE Yes, I saw the weapons or the firearms. ADV SANDI Did you have to keep any of those firearms at your place, your house or any place you may have chosen? MR RADEBE About the keeping of the guns or firearms, Mr Vilakazi was accountable. I never kept any firearms in my house or suggested a place of safety for firearms. I never did that. ADV SANDI Where were these firearms when you saw them for the first time? MR RADEBE The first time I saw these firearms was when Mr Vilakazi arrived with them shortly after he had purchased them, at his house. ADV SANDI Thank you, Mr Radebe. Thank you, Chairperson. ADV GCABASHE Thank you. Mr Radebe, I'm just a little confused. You mentioned the killing of Twala, we then also reminded you about the killing Lucky, you then disassociated yourself with the killing of one or the other, I'm not sure as to which one it was. MR RADEBE I will explain this in this way. To tell the truth I have no responsibility in both occasions or incidents. What I was trying to clarify was that I did hear that Obob was killed. As for Lucky I heard recently about him. ADV GCABASHE So Obob is the same Baab whom Mr Vilakazi mentioned, am I right? INTERPRETER The speaker's microphone is not on. MR RADEBE Yes, it is true. ADV GCABASHE One final question, the slogan "A killer must be killed", please explain this slogan to me. A killer being somebody who killed one of the members of the community or one of your own soldiers? A killer would be somebody who was killing in defence of the community that he represented, am I right? MR RADEBE The slogan that the killer must be killed was in line with the fact that when the killer has killed other soldiers or the community of Lusaka, should in turn be killed because we had a problem that every morning when we wake up we will see people lying down dead. Now what motivated the community to adopt the slogan of "A killer must be killed was to minimise the incidents that were happening in the area because every morning we would wake up to dead bodies lying around. ADV GCABASHE In your application you referred to the general defence of the community against the IFP, yes? Do you agree with that? MR RADEBE Yes. ADV GCABASHE Are there any particular incidents of such defensive action that you recall being reported to you? You know as from the commanders who were the activists or the soldiers. MR RADEBE No, there are no others. ADV GCABASHE Can I just understand the answer. You don't recall the particular incidents or you don't recall receiving any reports? Just to clarify that for me. MR RADEBE I'm getting a bit confused about this question, I don't understand your line of questioning. Would you please kindly repeat slowly your question. ADV GCABASHE You're quite right, I put two things together, I'll separate them. The soldiers went out to defend the community each time the community was attacked, that's right? MR RADEBE Yes, that's true. ADV GCABASHE You would have your Sunday meetings and at those meetings I presume they would come back and report to you and say to you on such and such a day we had to go and defend - you would probably know about it anyway because it was your community that was being attacked, but you got reports from them of this nature, is that right? MR RADEBE The community would get a report from us as a Committee of Seven and we would have got that report from our soldiers because they would have done A, B and C. Then we will convey or relay the message to the community on Sunday and tell them that the soldiers have been engaged in such acts during the week to the community. We will be relaying the message to the community as a Committee of Seven. ADV GCABASHE Now my question is, can you recall any one of those reports you gave to the community that at a certain place this is what happened? MR RADEBE The particular report that we conveyed to the community is when our soldiers were keeping guard at the border when one of our soldiers were shot towards Penduka. So that that was the report that we reported to the community, informing them that one of our soldiers had already been shot at the border. There was the place we called a border. ADV GCABASHE Now that is one example, how many other such examples can you think of, even if it's just the numbers, so you can say there were 100 such incidents or there were three such incidents. Just to give me an idea of how often they would come back to report to you, you would then pass the message on to the community, just to give me an idea. MR RADEBE The soldiers were reporting to us daily after they come back from the border. And every Sunday we will do the same, we will report to the community what we got from the soldiers during the week. ADV GCABASHE Thank you, Mr Radebe. Thank you, Chair. CHAIRPERSON Mr Radebe, do you also accept that in this conflict, in the fighting that was going on that we heard about, that your soldiers, if I might put them that way, must have killed and injured and killed some people as well in this fight that was going on? MR RADEBE I will not dispute that, that they did not murder or injure anyone because in a fight or in a conflict with a gun in your possession, definitely one would have to be murdered or be killed. It does happen, it's common cause. So I do agree or accept that it could have been that people were murdered and were injured as a result of this conflict. CHAIRPERSON In fact we will more than likely hear the evidence of a large number of the soldiers in this sitting here, who might be referring to a lot of other incidents apart from the ones that you and Mr Vilakazi have referred to up to now. The question that I wanted to put to you which Mr Vilakazi has also responded to is, do you accept that, just speaking about yourself as the Committee of Seven, do you accept that you must take responsibility for whatever then has happened in this fight on the part of your, the soldiers? MR RADEBE I'm not following your question, I'm not in a position to answer therefore please repeat your question slowly. CHAIRPERSON I'll do that. Well let me first say that it appears that you agree that apart from the two incidents that have been referred to up to now, there was more than likely a large number of killings, injuring of people by your soldiers, do you agree with that? MR RADEBE Yes, I do agree with that. CHAIRPERSON Then the question that follows on that one, which Mr Vilakazi has also already responded to is, do you accept that as a member of the Committee of Seven you must take responsibility for all that happened? MR RADEBE Yes, I will say that, that I will take the responsibility because it was us who went to purchase these firearms and we distributed them to the soldiers. In that light I would say that we as the Committee of Seven should take responsibility to this effect. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Sibeko, any re-examination? MR SIBEKO None, Mr Chairman, I request Mr Vilakazi to be excused. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR SIBEKO CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR SIBEKO Mr Radebe, sorry. CHAIRPERSON Mr Radebe, you are excused. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON It's almost lunch time, I don't think there's any sense in starting a witness at this stage. We are going to adjourn for lunch until 2 o'clock. We'll reconvene at 2 o'clock. We're adjourned. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS