amntrans AMNESTY HEARING 1998-11-26 PRETORIA 4 JOHANNES DINGAAN TSHABALALA AM 7194/97(?) https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53007&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1998/9811231210_pr_981126th.htm CHAIRPERSON Who is the next applicant? MR SIBEKO The next applicant is Mr Joseph Tshabalala. CHAIRPERSON Will Mr Joseph Tshabalala come to the witness stand. CHAIRPERSON Which application is that, does it relate to Lusaka-A or what? MR SIBEKO It relates to Lusaka-A, Mr Chairman. May apologies - Johannes Tshabalala. ADV STEENKAMP Mr Chairman, his application appears on page 149 of the first bundle. CHAIRPERSON Please put that on and tell me if you hear, Mr Tshabalala. MR TSHABALALA Yes. CHAIRPERSON Will you please stand and give us your full names. JOHANNES DINGAAN TSHABALALA (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Sibeko? ...(end of tape) EXAMINATION BY MR SIBEKO ...(inaudible) MR TSHABALALA The reason why I am applying for amnesty, I was a person who would collect monies from the community to purchase unlawful firearms and the ammunition as well. MR SIBEKO Where did you do that Sir, in which area of Thokoza? MR TSHABALALA At Kethlegelo. MR SIBEKO Is Kethlegelo within the section of Lusaka-A? MR TSHABALALA Yes, it is a school that is located in Lusaka-A. MR SIBEKO Under whose instructions were you acting at the time you collected that money? MR TSHABALALA I received my instruction from the community of Lusaka-A. MR SIBEKO After having collected that money were you directly involved in purchasing those arms and ammunition? MR TSHABALALA No, I did not take any part in it. We would forward the money to the Committee of Seven. MR SIBEKO Now in your application form, in one of the answers you say you were a member or an office bearer of the ANC Sectional Committee, what did this have to do with the SDUs? MR TSHABALALA I was a chairperson under the civic where the community will gather and discuss about the decisions that have to be taken. MR SIBEKO After the words "ANC Sectional Committee." ... there is SDU, and then: "(Thokoza)" If you don't mind, have a look at your application form. MR TSHABALALA: In actual fact I was a chairperson of the civic. The paper came back to refer to me as an SDU member and I replied and contradicted that. MR SIBEKO So in fact what you're saying is that this is all a mistake? MR TSHABALALA Yes, it is a mistake for them to refer to me as an SDU member. MR SIBEKO But I'm under the impression that this form is yours and it should have been completed by yourself. MR TSHABALALA Yes, the form is mine, it belongs to me. And these things came back from Cape Town and I discovered that there SDU appearing there and I wrote back to correct that error referring to me as an SDU member. MR SIBEKO Were you involved in any of the activities of the Self Defence Units, that is using arms in defence or in attack against any of the then enemies of the SDUs? MR TSHABALALA No, I did not partake. MR SIBEKO Thank you, Mr Chairman, no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SIBEKO CHAIRPERSON Cross-examination? ADV STEENKAMP No questions, thank you, Mr Chairman. NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY ADV STEENKAMP CHAIRPERSON Questions by the panel? ADV SANDI No questions, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON The money that you collected, did you know that it was going to be used to buy arms illegally to be used by the Self Defence Units to defend the community in Lusaka-A? MR TSHABALALA There's one part I missed, please repeat your question. CHAIRPERSON The money that you collected, did you know that it was to be used to buy arms illegally, which arms were to be used by the SDUs to defend the community in Lusaka-A? MR TSHABALALA Yes, I knew that. CHAIRPERSON And are you asking for amnesty in respect of that? MR TSHABALALA Yes, in respect of that. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Any re-examination? MR SIBEKO None, Mr Chairman, thank you. NO QUESTIONS BY MR SIBEKO CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Tshabalala, you are excused. WITNESS EXCUSED