amntrans AMNESTY HEARING 1998-11-26 PRETORIA 4 EMMANUEL BHEKUMUZI TSHABALALA AM 7735/97 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53009&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1998/9811231210_pr_981126th.htm CHAIRPERSON Who is next? MR SIBEKO Mr Chairman, may I be excused for now, Mr Mopedi will take over. CHAIRPERSON Right, Mr Sibeko you are excused. MR MOPEDI Mr Chairman, the applicant that I am going to call is Bhekumuzi Emmanuel Tshabalala, page 305. CHAIRPERSON Just for the purposes of the record, the next applicants are being represented by Mr Mopedi. Mr Tshabalala, can you hear me? MR TSHABALALA Yes, I can hear you. CHAIRPERSON Will you please and just give us your full names for the record. EMMANUEL BHEKUMUZI TSHABALALA (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Mopedi? EXAMINATION BY MR MOPEDI Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr Tshabalala, you are the applicant in this matter and you are applying for amnesty as a former member of SDU for Lusaka-A, is that correct? MR TSHABALALA Yes, that is correct. MR MOPEDI Mr Tshabalala, could you tell this forum why you are applying for amnesty. MR TSHABALALA I am seeking amnesty because I was involved with the SDUs and I also used to carry an unlicensed or illegal firearm. MR MOPEDI You may proceed. MR TSHABALALA Would you please repeat. MR MOPEDI Do you recall any specific incident in which you were involved as a member of SDU for Lusaka, where you were carrying a firearm, shooting people. If you can relate those instances. MR TSHABALALA The one thing that I still remember is that we were patrolling at Lusaka and as we were patrolling Mochatchu contacted us via the hand radio, to the effect that Penduka was under attack and summoned for our help. We then received our orders from our commander, Mosa, and then we went to Penduka. MR MOPEDI Right, continue. Tell us what happened at Penduka. MR TSHABALALA When we arrived at Mshayazafe in Penduka, we indeed discovered that it was bad. We then partook in the attack, we started shooting. MR MOPEDI Who were you fighting at Penduka? MR TSHABALALA There were IFP members as well as the members of the Internal Stability Unit. MR MOPEDI Were you carrying a firearm? MR TSHABALALA That is correct. MR MOPEDI What type of firearm? MR TSHABALALA An AK47. MR MOPEDI Have you pulled a trigger at Penduka? MR TSHABALALA That is correct. MR MOPEDI And have you injured or killed anyone at Penduka. MR TSHABALALA I believe that when a person shoots there must be people who get injured or die. MR MOPEDI Do you know who those people were? MR TSHABALALA No, I don't know them. MR MOPEDI So in other words what you are telling us is that people might have been shot and killed or injured? MR TSHABALALA That is correct. MR MOPEDI And who was your commander as you were launching that attack? MR TSHABALALA It was Mosa Msimango. MR MOPEDI Do you still remember from your side, that is your co-members, who were with you at Penduka, fighting with you? MR TSHABALALA If I am not mistaken I was with Zekele Msimango, Nkosana Tshabalala and our commander. MR MOPEDI So those are your members that you could remember now? MR TSHABALALA That is correct. MR MOPEDI You may proceed. Are there any further instances that you could quote for this panel? MR TSHABALALA That is correct. MR MOPEDI You may proceed to tell us. MR TSHABALALA The one incident that I still remember is that it so happened that in our section, that is Lusaka, if our commander issued out duties in the evening he would go out with some of the SDU members to patrol in the section, and should we come across firearms we would confiscate them and take them to our commander. MR MOPEDI Did you find any weapons as you were patrolling? MR TSHABALALA That is correct. MR TSHABALALA Could you tell us if you still remember? MR TSHABALALA Would you please repeat the question. MR MOPEDI My question is, as you were patrolling you found illegal weapons in possession of other people, so could you tell us about the weapons that you found? Were they knives or firearms or whatever, what kind of weapons were they? MR TSHABALALA Yes, we came across weapons such as firearms and knives. MR MOPEDI So do you know what happened eventually with those weapons? MR TSHABALALA These weapons would be taken by the commander and handled it within the Committee of Seven. MR MOPEDI You don't know what eventually happened to those weapons, you don't have first-hand information? MR TSHABALALA That is correct. ADV SANDI Sorry, Mr Mopedi, just for clarity. These weapons the witness is talking about, who were they taking them from? They were patrolling, I follow that, they were confiscating weapons from who, from members of the IFP or from people in the community? MR MOPEDI Sir, if I understood the witness very well, he says he has found the weapons from other people, not necessarily members of the IFP but illegal weapons. CHAIRPERSON Why don't you just lead him. Just lead him on that aspect, just ask him who these people were. MR MOPEDI Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr Tshabalala, you're telling us that you were confiscating weapons from some other people, who were those people actually? MR TSHABALALA These people, some of these people were gangs, gangsters. MR MOPEDI So those people were just ordinary people, they were not members of any - to your knowledge, were they members of any political party or any organisation? MR TSHABALALA That is correct. MR MOPEDI So you're now saying those were members of a gang. Could you specify or clarify us on that aspect? MR TSHABALALA Would you please repeat that part? MR MOPEDI You say you confiscated weapons from members of a gang, how do you know that those people were members of a gang, could you clarify us on that question? MR TSHABALALA We knew some of them, that they were members of the gangsters. We therefore had to frisk them and confiscate their firearms because they were using the firearms to harass the community. MR MOPEDI Do you know the name or names of those gangs that you are referring to? MR TSHABALALA Some of them are deceased, like Simphiwe and Vusi. MR MOPEDI And the gang, you only know the leaders of the gang. If say Simphiwe and Vuzi, were they members of a gang or leaders of a gang or the gang itself was Simphiwe and Vusi? MR TSHABALALA They were just members of the gang. MR MOPEDI So what I want to know from you is, those gangs that you are referring to, do you perhaps know the names of the gangs? MR TSHABALALA Yes, I know the names. MR MOPEDI Could you give us the names? MR TSHABALALA There was this one called the Bad Boys. MR MOPEDI Bad Boys and which gang, or is that the only one that you remember? MR TSHABALALA No, that was not the only gang, the other one was the Khumalo Gang. MR MOPEDI Apart from these two incidents that you have quoted, are there any further incidents, specific incidents that you still recall? MR TSHABALALA Yes, there is another one. MR MOPEDI You may proceed telling us. MR TSHABALALA The one incident in which I was involved is the Mandela section incident. MR MOPEDI Right, proceed. MR TSHABALALA It so happened that when we were patrolling in our section we received some information from Bonga through the hand radio, to the effect that his place was under attack, being attacked by the IFP. We then met our commander who issued out orders to us, to the effect that we should go up and assist our fellow brothers at Mandela section. In that instant, as we were moving, we were just about to cross Ligwana and Mandela, we heard gunshots that were directed to us. We then returned fire to the people who were shooting at us until we defeated them. We managed to get into Mandela. We met people such as Bonga there, who gave us orders to the effect that we should go to the place where the conflict was going on. MR MOPEDI If you talk about Mandela and earlier talked about Penduka, it's not one and the same place, is that correct? MR TSHABALALA Mandela is in Penduka. MR MOPEDI When you started you told us about Penduka, that you were called by radio to Penduka, so are you still referring to the same incident? MR TSHABALALA Yes, I am referring to the same incident. MR MOPEDI Yes, my question is, apart from this one, Mandela incident and the incident where you were searching people, are there any further incidents? MR TSHABALALA No, these are the only ones that I still remember. MR MOPEDI Were you ever involved in a fight at Mazibuko? MR TSHABALALA Mazibuko is the very same area to which I referred as Mandela. MR MOPEDI Could you clarify for us, Penduka, Mandela and Mazibuko is one and the same place? MR TSHABALALA The names were changed at a later stage. Mtabamzimbi is now Lusaka section, Penduka is now called Slovo. In other words Penduka's name changed to Joe Slovo and the Mandela to which I referred, is in Mazibuko. In other words Mazibuko is just the name of the street, the section is Mandela. MR MOPEDI Yes, but my question is, Sir, Penduka, Mandela and Mazibuko, are you referring to one and the same place or are they three different places? MR TSHABALALA No, it's the same place, it's one place. MR MOPEDI So were you ever involved in a fight at Mshayazafe? MR TSHABALALA That is correct. MR MOPEDI When was it? MR TSHABALALA If I still remember very well, it was on the 19th of April 1994. MR MOPEDI You may proceed, tell us fully what happened there. ADV GCABASHE Isn't that first incident the applicant testified to? Correct me if I'm wrong, Mr Tshabalala, tell me if I'm wrong. You have told us that you were involved in the Mshayazafe incident, yes? MR TSHABALALA That is correct. ADV GCABASHE You have also told us that you were involved in the Mandela section incident where Bonga communicated that he needed help? MR TSHABALALA That is correct. ADV GCABASHE And then you have also touched on a third incident where, I think you said it Mchacho had contacted you. I seem to have three incidents here, am I right or have I got too many incidents here? MR TSHABALALA No, that one, the Mchacho incident is associated with the Mshayazafe incident. ADV GCABASHE The Bonga incident is the Penduka incident? I'm just totally confused about the incidents now that you have give us. How many incidents and at which places? Maybe if you gave us the years if you can, maybe that would help us. 1993, 1994, maybe that will help us a little bit. MR TSHABALALA The Mchacho incident in which I said we were contacted through red phone or radio, it happened in 1993. ADV GCABASHE The Bonga incident? MR TSHABALALA If I am not mistaken the Mshayazafe one, if I'm not mistaken, was in 1994 and the Bonga incident was in 1993. I think I mixed them up. CHAIRPERSON Just tell us, Mr Tshabalala, in how many incidents were you involved? MR TSHABALALA The Mshayazafe incident and the Mazibuko incident. CHAIRPERSON You were involved in two incidents? MR TSHABALALA Yes, these are the incidents that I have touched on here. CHAIRPERSON Now let's take number one, incident number one, which year did that happen and which month, the first incident? MR TSHABALALA The first incident as I have explained, happened in 1993. CHAIRPERSON And where did it happen? MR TSHABALALA This happened at Mshayazafe. CHAIRPERSON Where is this, where is Mshayazafe? MR TSHABALALA As I have explained, Mshayazafe is in Penduka. CHAIRPERSON And what is Mshayazafe, is it a street, is it a school, what is it? MR TSHABALALA It is a hostel. CHAIRPERSON So you were involved as an SDU member, in a fight at this hostel in 1993, is that right? MR TSHABALALA That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Who were you fighting against? MR TSHABALALA We were attacking the IFP members. CHAIRPERSON Who were living at this hostel? MR TSHABALALA That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Were you armed with an AK47 rifle? MR TSHABALALA That is correct. CHAIRPERSON And did you fire this AK47 rifle? MR TSHABALALA Yes, I did fire. CHAIRPERSON Who did you fire at? MR TSHABALALA I fired at the IFP members. CHAIRPERSON Did you shoot to kill them? MR TSHABALALA I think everybody who was shooting using a gun, knows the results that death is a possibility. CHAIRPERSON Yes, I'm not talking about that, I'm talking about yourself. Did you shoot to kill? MR TSHABALALA I fired these shots with an intention to defend the community. CHAIRPERSON Yes, I realise that because you were acting as a member of the SDU, but what did you intend, did you intend to kill these people? MR TSHABALALA That is correct. CHAIRPERSON And you accept that there is a possibility that you might have killed or injured some of them? MR TSHABALALA Yes, I think it's true. CHAIRPERSON But you can't tell us exactly who or how many people you might have killed or injured in that incident? MR TSHABALALA I cannot say. I did not see people who died or got injured when I shot. CHAIRPERSON Let us go to incident number two, when did that happen? MR TSHABALALA This incident happened at Mandela section. CHAIRPERSON Yes, before you explain where, when did it happen, when? Give us a date. MR TSHABALALA I think this happened in 1993, if I'm not mistaken. CHAIRPERSON Can you give any other indication, perhaps the month possibly? MR TSHABALALA I do not quite remember the month. CHAIRPERSON Was it early in 1993 or in the middle of 1993 or towards the end of 1993, if you can help? MR TSHABALALA It was in the middle of 1993. CHAIRPERSON Where did this happen? MR TSHABALALA As I have explained earlier on, I did state that we went to Mandela after having received information from Bonga, wherein he was telling us that they were under attack and they wanted our assistance. CHAIRPERSON So are you saying that this incident took place in Mandela section in Thokoza? MR TSHABALALA That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Can you tell us where in Mandela section this happened? MR TSHABALALA At Mazibuko Street. CHAIRPERSON Was it at a particular place, at a house, at a hostel, at a school, at a church, can you help? MR TSHABALALA It happened in the street. CHAIRPERSON Who were you fighting with in this incident? MR TSHABALALA We were fighting the IFP members. CHAIRPERSON Were you again armed with your AK47 rifle? MR TSHABALALA That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Did you fire it again at these people, at these people you were fighting with, the IFP people? MR TSHABALALA That is correct. CHAIRPERSON And did you have the same intention as in the incident number one? MR TSHABALALA That is correct. CHAIRPERSON And again, you can't say if you have killed or injured anybody? MR TSHABALALA As I have stated before yes. CHAIRPERSON Are these the only two incidents that you can remember? MR TSHABALALA That is correct. CHAIRPERSON And you're asking for amnesty for your participation in these two incidents? MR TSHABALALA Yes, I am seeking amnesty insofar as these two incidents are concerned. CHAIRPERSON Now there is some indication that the first incident that you referred to, that it happened in 1994, is it possible that you are mistaken with the year? Because you said you think it is in 1993 MR TSHABALALA Which incident are you referring to, would you please explain to me? CHAIRPERSON Incident number one that you referred to at the hostel in Penduka section. ADV GCABASHE Mshayazafe. MR TSHABALALA As I have stated earlier that it might as well be that I confused the dates and the years etc., I do not quite remember very well. CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Tshabalala. Mr Mopedi? ADV GCABASHE Can I just very quickly. Is it possible that you had two attacks at Mshayazafe at different times, or more than that in fact? MR TSHABALALA We only attacked once. ADV GCABASHE Thank you. MR MOPEDI Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr Tshabalala, the AK47 that you were using, what happened to it? MR TSHABALALA This AK was taken by my commander, Mosa, and he took it to the stadium on the day when firearms were to be brought to the stadium. MR MOPEDI Thank you, Mr Chairman, I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MOPEDI CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Mopedi. Cross-examination? ADV STEENKAMP No questions, thank you, Mr Chairman. NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY ADV STEENKAMP CHAIRPERSON Panel? ADV SANDI Mr Tshabalala, just one question. The Bad Boys and members of the Khumalo gang, you say you confiscated weapons from them, did you do anything to those people? MR TSHABALALA No. ADV SANDI You are not making any application in regard to your treatment of those people? MR TSHABALALA As I have explained earlier on, I am just seeking amnesty insofar as the things that I did. ADV SANDI Members of the ISU, you say you saw then at Mshayazafe, did you aim any shot at members of the ISU? MR TSHABALALA That is correct. ADV SANDI Are you not making an application for amnesty in regard to that as well? MR TSHABALALA As I have stated earlier on that yes, I am seeking amnesty concerning all the things that I did. ADV GCABASHE Thank you, Chair. Mr Tshabalala, there are obviously other incidents that you were involved in that you can't remember, am I right? MR TSHABALALA No. ADV GCABASHE There are no other incidents at all, be they minor incidents or very serious attacks, between 1993 and 1994, that you may have forgotten about? MR TSHABALALA These are the only incidents that I remember and I know, there are no others. ADV GCABASHE Thank you. Thank you, Chair. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Any re-examination, Mr Mopedi? MR MOPEDI Thank you, Mr Chairman, no re-examination. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MOPEDI CHAIRPERSON Mr Tshabalala, thank you very much, you are excused.