amntrans AMNESTY HEARING 1998-11-30 PALM RIDGE 5 DANNY RADEBE AM (?) https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53017&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1998/9811231210_pr_981130th.htm ON RESUMPTION CHAIRPERSON Who is next? MR SIBEKO Thank you, Mr Chairman, the next applicant is Mr Danny Radebe. His application is on page 135. CHAIRPERSON Mr Radebe, won't you stand please. Are your full names Danny Radebe? DANNY RADEBE (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Thank you, please sit down. Mr Sibeko? EXAMINATION BY MR SIBEKO Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr Radebe, you are an applicant in this matter applying for amnesty, is that correct? MR RADEBE Yes. MR SIBEKO Is it correct that you were a member of the Self Defence Unit for Lusaka-A? Is that correct? MR RADEBE Yes, that is so. MR SIBEKO When did you join the Self Defence Unit? MR RADEBE It was in 1993. MR SIBEKO Who was your commander at the time you joined the Self Defence Unit? MR RADEBE It was Mosa Msimango. MR SIBEKO Have you heard the evidence of Mr Patrick Radebe and Lucky Soko inasfar as it relates to the death of Gregory Mkwanazi and Mbuso? MR RADEBE Yes. MR SIBEKO Did you understand what they said? MR RADEBE Yes. MR SIBEKO Were you involved in that activity? MR RADEBE Yes, I was there. MR SIBEKO Do you mind telling us about your involvement from the beginning up to the end of this incident? MR RADEBE I was at Lucky's place, it was in the evening. When I was still sitting there Mbuso came and he knocked at the door and Lucky asked who was at the door, Mbuso did not respond. Lucky asked for the second time and then Mbuso said "Come out with your axe". Lucky was a person who used to joke. He took his axe and he went to open the door. After he had opened the door, Mbuso shot him. I was looking at him. We were sitting there with Lucky's family. That is what I know. MR SIBEKO Now when you talk about Lucky, is he one and the same person as Gregory Mkwanazi? MR RADEBE Yes, he is the same person. MR SIBEKO You say you were at Gregory's place, where exactly in the house were you sitting and who else was there? MR RADEBE I was in the kitchen with his family. MR SIBEKO Are you in a position to state exactly who in the family of the deceased was there, because by family you can mean quite a large number of people. Are you in a position to remember exactly who was there? MR RADEBE What family are you talking about, Lucky's family? A person - I've told you that it was his family, all the members of his family, even the children were there and the children saw everything that took place that day. MR SIBEKO Was Lucky's father present? MR RADEBE No. MR SIBEKO Was Lucky's mother present? MR RADEBE Yes, she was there. CHAIRPERSON If Lucky had a brother, was his brother there? MR RADEBE Yes, he was there. MR SIBEKO Who else was there? MR RADEBE It was myself who was a person from outside but the majority of the people there were Lucky's family. MR SIBEKO Alright. How do you that the person who was knocking at the door was Mbuso? Did he mention his name or did you see him? MR RADEBE I saw him. MR SIBEKO When the person knocked at the door just before the incident occurred, was it during the day or was it at night, and if it was at night, could you see the person who was outside, was there a light that could enable you to see that this is so and so? MR RADEBE Yes, I could see because in Lucky's kitchen there was a light outside and so you could see a person who was standing outside. MR SIBEKO Now that the light was on, will I be correct to say that it was at night when he, it was in the evening when he came to Lucky's place, that is when Mbuso came to Lucky's place? MR RADEBE Yes, it was in the evening. MR SIBEKO Now, Mbuso knocked at the door, a few words were exchanged, that is who is the person is knocking and then ultimately Lucky ended up opening up the door. Was there any other thing that was said before the shooting started, after the door was already opened? MR RADEBE No, nothing else was said. When he opened the door there was a shot and he ran away, he ran to next door and he came back as a person who was surprised, a person who did not know what was happening. MR SIBEKO When exactly did he come back and appear as if he is surprised as to what had occurred? MR RADEBE Soon after the incident. He came back on the very same night. ADV GCABASHE Just for absolute clarity, you're saying Mbuso came back? MR RADEBE Yes. MR SIBEKO Did Mbuso ...(intervention) ADV SANDI Sorry, Mr Sibeko. Did Mbuso say anything whilst he was shooting Lucky? MR RADEBE No, he said nothing. I did not hear him saying anything, I just heard the shot. ADV SANDI Did Lucky try to throw a blow with the axe he was carrying, on Mbuso? MR RADEBE No. MR SIBEKO Now when he came back after the incident, as you say he appeared as if he was surprised, did he say anything? When he came back for the second time as you say he was surprised ...(end of tape) MR RADEBE ...(inaudible) I found him sitting there, sitting in the kitchen with his hands on his head. MR SIBEKO Now let me get you clear here. When Mbuso knocked at the door, the door was opened, when he fired you were in the kitchen. When everything occurred you were still in the kitchen, is that correct? MR RADEBE Yes. MR SIBEKO Was there a time after that incident when you left the kitchen or the house at all? MR RADEBE After this incident I went home to fetch the car so that we could take Lucky to the hospital. When I came I saw him sitting there in the kitchen, that is Mbuso. I don't know what he said, if had said anything because I just got in there and he was quiet. MR SIBEKO Did you ask any question in connection with the said incident? In fact did you ask him why did he do that? MR RADEBE No, I did not ask because I was also very scared, my heart was beating very hard. I couldn't even talk because that incident was actually unexpected. ADV SANDI Did anyone of the people who were there in the house ask Mbuso why he had shot Lucky? MR RADEBE I don't know but when I came they were quiet, all of them were quiet in the house. ADV SANDI Are you able to say how many times Mbuso opened fire on Lucky? MR RADEBE Only once, in the ear. MR SIBEKO You say you went to fetch the vehicle so that you could take him to the hospital, did you actually take Lucky to the hospital? MR RADEBE Yes, I took him to the hospital. MR SIBEKO What happened thereafter? Did you come back with him or did you leave him at the hospital and what happened thereafter? What did you do thereafter? MR RADEBE We left him there at the hospital. We were just taking him there because he was dead already. We left him there at the hospital and we came back. MR SIBEKO Did you spend the night at Lucky's place, the very same evening after the incident took place or did you go home, or any other place? MR RADEBE I went home. MR SIBEKO The following morning, were you present when Mbuso came to apologise to the family of the deceased? That is the following morning after the incident that occurred. MR RADEBE No, I was not present. MR SIBEKO Were you present at the time Patrick and Lucky Soko took Mbuso to the office at Mkwaie Street? MR RADEBE No, I was not there. MR SIBEKO Were you part of the group that went to fetch Mbuso from the offices to the circle at Xhaba Street? MR RADEBE Yes, I was there. MR SIBEKO Do you mind telling us about the role or your active role at the time when he was, when Mbuso was fetched from the offices until he was executed? MR RADEBE When Mbuso was about to be fetched I was fetched at my home with Stick's kombi. It was myself and Langa, Dingaan. We went to fetch Mbuso. I had a firearm, an AK47. We took Mbuso from Mkwaie Street. He was already assaulted when we went to Mkwaie, when we arrived there. I wanted to shoot him there at Mkwaie but the other people said I mustn't kill him there we must take him far away to kill him. Mbuso requested us not to kill him far away from his home so as to make it easier for his family to get his dead body. We took him to Xhaba Street. At least it was nearer to his home. We took him out of the kombi. I shot him. He died. MR SIBEKO Are you in a position to say or to tell us about the number of times you shot at him? MR RADEBE Seven bullets, I shot seven times with the AK47. MACHINE SWITCHED OFF CHAIRPERSON Is your client in a position to proceed or does he need a brief adjournment? MR SIBEKO That's what I wanted to find out, Mr Chairman. MACHINE SWITCHED OFF MR SIBEKO Mr Chairman, I would request that we adjourn a while for this applicant. CHAIRPERSON We'll take a short adjournment. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION CHAIRPERSON Are we in a position to proceed? MR SIBEKO That's correct, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Mr Radebe, I'm just reminding you you are still under oath. DANNY RADEBE (still under oath) CHAIRPERSON Mr Sibeko? EXAMINATION BY MR SIBEKO (Continued) Thank you, Mr Chairman. Now Mr Radebe, you said you spent about seven bullets on Mr Mbuso Khambule(?), is that correct? MR RADEBE Yes, that is correct. MR SIBEKO At the time you shot at him, what was your intention? MR RADEBE My intention was to kill him because he had killed. MR SIBEKO Will I be correct to say that it was mostly because the policy or the slogan that the killer must be killed when you decided to kill him? MR RADEBE Yes, that is correct. MR SIBEKO Are you in a position to tell us as to what happened to the body of Mbuso after you had fired at him? MR RADEBE Truly speaking I don't know anything about that because after shooting him I ran away. I don't know what happened to his body. MR SIBEKO After you shot at him were you in a position to assess whether he was still alive just before you left or was he already dead? MR RADEBE Yes, I could see that he was dead. The last bullet penetrated his head and I was certain thereafter that he was dead. MR SIBEKO I'm under the impression that you are in a position to remember as to the exact parts of his body, as to which parts of his body were affected. Are you in a position to tell us, besides the last bullet that you've just referred to, exactly where in the body you shot at him? ADV SANDI Sorry, Mr Sibeko. Do you think that detail is necessary? I'm asking this question because last time when we adjourned he seemed to have been very much emotionally affected by this. Maybe it could do more harm to him emotionally if one has to go through all those details as to which part of the body was hit by which bullet. I don't know. MR SIBEKO I'll withdraw that question. Now the AK47 that you were using, what happened to it? MR RADEBE I took back to Mtjale Street because it belonged to the Mtjale Street people. MR SIBEKO Other than this incident, were you involved in any other incidents of violence? MR RADEBE No. I used to be a taxi driver but after work I would go on patrolling with the other people. MR SIBEKO During your patrol did you confiscate any weapon from anybody? MR RADEBE No. MR SIBEKO So there are no other incidents wherein you were involved, is that correct? MR RADEBE No other incidents. MR SIBEKO MR RADEBE Yes, that is what I am applying for amnesty for. MR SIBEKO Thank you, Mr Chairman, no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SIBEKO CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Sibeko. Questions, Advocate Steenkamp? ADV STEENKAMP No questions, thank you, Mr Chairman. NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY ADV STEENKAMP ADV GCABASHE Mr Radebe, just assist me with one or two matters. The night you were sitting in the kitchen, the night Lucky was killed, you went home to fetch a vehicle to get Lucky to the hospital. When you came back you found Mbuso sitting in the kitchen, is that correct so far? MR RADEBE Yes, that is correct. ADV GCABASHE Did you confront Mbuso at all at that point? MR RADEBE No, I did not talk to him. ADV GCABASHE Was there a particular reason for not asking him why he had done that, at that point? MR RADEBE I said I was afraid, I couldn't even talk properly because my heart was beating so hard. ADV GCABASHE But you had definitely seen him at the door and you know that positively he is the one who shot Lucky? MR RADEBE Yes, that is correct. ADV GCABASHE Thank you, Mr Radebe. Thank you, Chair. CHAIRPERSON Is it correct that both Mbuso and Lucky were in the same unit, Self Defence Unit with you? MR RADEBE Yes. CHAIRPERSON And then it appears to be obvious that they must have been known to each other, Lucky knew who Mbuso was and Mbuso knew who Lucky was? MR RADEBE Yes. CHAIRPERSON Was there any problems between the two of them that you were aware of? MR RADEBE No, I don't know anything about that. CHAIRPERSON What kind of firearm did Mbuso use in this incident to shoot Lucky with? MR RADEBE It was an AK47. CHAIRPERSON Now from what you could observe, did Mbuso appear to be normal on this incident or did you detect anything abnormal about his behaviour apart from now shooting? MR RADEBE He was normal. CHAIRPERSON Have you got any clue why Mbuso shot Lucky? MR RADEBE No, I don't have a clue. CHAIRPERSON Within the unit, have you ever had other problems with Mbuso before this incident, this shooting incident? MR RADEBE No, there were no problems. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Sibeko, re-examination? RE-EXAMINATION BY MR SIBEKO There's one aspect, Mr Chairman. Mr Radebe, Mr Patrick Radebe told us about the threats or harassment made by one, Ntlantla, who happens to be Mbuso's brother, have you experienced the same from the said Ntlantla? MR RADEBE Yes. MR SIBEKO Are you in a position to tell us exactly what happened between yourself and Ntlantla when such threats or harassments were made? MR RADEBE When Ntlantla - Ntlantla used to say a lot of things when he sees me. He used to tell me that he will never rest until I am dead. Every time he used to utter such things. Even now I'm not free wherever I go because of him. I would request you here to give me a solution, tell me what to do about this situation because this has been happening for some time now. MR SIBEKO Up to this stage you haven't done anything to him, is that correct? MR RADEBE Will you please repeat your question? MR SIBEKO Up to this stage or up to today you haven't done anything to Ntlantla, is that correct? MR RADEBE Yes, I have done nothing to him. MR SIBEKO Thank you, Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SIBEKO CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Sibeko. Mr Radebe, was Mbuso a comrade? MR RADEBE Yes, he was a comrade. CHAIRPERSON Mr Radebe, thank you for testifying, you are excused from further attendance, thank you. WITNESS EXCUSED