amntrans AMNESTY HEARING 1998-12-01 PALM RIDGE 6 JABULANI AARON NGWENYA AM 7300/97 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53024&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1998/9811231210_pr_981201th.htm ON RESUMPTION CHAIRPERSON Mr Sibeko? MR SIBEKO Thank you, Mr Chairman. Our next applicant is Mr Aaron Ngwenya. His application appears on page 64, Lusaka-B. CHAIRPERSON Mr Sibeko, just before I swear the applicant in, one of the important items of information that we require for our purposes is the identity number of the applicant. Now in a few matters that we have already heard and in some that we are about to hear, we've noticed that the identity numbers have not been filled in on the application form itself, so perhaps at some stage you might look into that and perhaps just assist our officials in getting that information from your clients. We don't need to do it on the record or anything like that. So if you just simply bear that in mind when you deal with them, to make sure that they have their ID numbers and they can furnish it to us, thank you. MR SIBEKO I'll do so, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Mr Ngwenya, can you hear? MR NGWENYA Yes, I can hear you. CHAIRPERSON Would you please stand and give your full names for the record please. JABULANI AARON NGWENYA (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Thank you, you may sit down. Mr Sibeko? EXAMINATION BY MR SIBEKO Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr Ngwenya, you are also applying for amnesty, is that correct? MR NGWENYA That is correct. MR SIBEKO Were you also a member of the Self Defence Unit, Lusaka-B section? MR NGWENYA That is correct. MR SIBEKO When did you join the unit, Sir? MR NGWENYA In 1993. MR SIBEKO Who was your commander? MR NGWENYA Makasonke Mhlope. MR SIBEKO Were you involved in any incidents of violence during the times of your membership to the Self Defence Unit, Lusaka-B? MR NGWENYA Yes, I was quite involved. MR SIBEKO Tell us about those incidents. MR NGWENYA I was working as a secretary at Lusaka-B. PROBLEM WITH MICROPHONES MR NGWENYA I was a secretary at Lusaka-B. I used to allocate people to houses from Penduka, people who had fled as a result of the violence and I allocated them to houses that had been left behind by fleeing Inkatha members. I also organised food for them. I would gather some money from the community to buy some food for these people. I also kept some of the weaponry. The commander had the key to the door and he would take these arms and distribute them among the soldiers. I'm through. MR SIBEKO Right. In your testimony you made reference to keeping arms, what type of arms were kept at your place? MR NGWENYA I used to keep weapons such as Scorpions and two AKs, an AK47 as well. MR SIBEKO At the time you kept these arms, did you know that it was unlawful because you didn't possess any licence to have those firearms with you? MR NGWENYA I knew that fully well. I knew that the guns were illegal, but the situation demanded as such. MR SIBEKO Did you appreciate the fact that those arms were meant to injure or kill anybody if used? MR NGWENYA That is correct. MR SIBEKO Were you specifically involved in any fights, that is in any attack or defensive action in your community? MR NGWENYA No, no, I did not use any firearm, what I did was to take care of the firearms. MR SIBEKO Now are you in a position to tell us about the number of houses of the displacees which you used to give shelter to those who didn't have any place to stay? MR NGWENYA I think there were a hundred of these houses. We would bring people and some shacks would be built behind the houses or at the backyards. MR SIBEKO What happened to those houses thereafter, did the owners thereof come back to occupy them or what? MR NGWENYA Some of these houses were demolished during the violence, but yes, some people did come back to re-occupy them. MR SIBEKO The people who vacated those houses, did they leave those houses as a result of specific attacks or they left their houses because there was that general violence taking place? MR NGWENYA There was this general spate of violence in the area, so that when Inkatha people were marching people from Mavimbala section nearby our section, if they knew that there was Inkatha people occupying a certain house, therefore moves would be taken. MR SIBEKO Are you aware whether some of those people were chased out, that is Self Defence Unit members went to their specific houses to take them out of their houses, are you aware whether that happened or not? MR NGWENYA No, I don't bear any knowledge to that effect, I just saw people fleeing their houses. MR SIBEKO In your testimony you made reference to the fact that you also collected ...(indistinct) from members of the community in order to provide food, who did you really provide food for? Is it the members of the community or the Self Defence Unit members? MR NGWENYA Members of the community. Each household used to contribute to rents. They were not under duress, they were actually prompted by the state of affairs. Some households had three children living away from them. ADV GCABASHE I didn't quite get that, is it the community that would benefit or the SDU? MR NGWENYA Yes, the community. MR SIBEKO The three arms that you referred to, what happened to them? MR NGWENYA The Scorpion was confiscated by the soldiers, or should I say "disappeared" whilst in the possession of one of our soldiers. The other one was also taken, it actually got lost. MR SIBEKO In other words, two of the arms that you referred to were taken by members of the South African Defence Force, the then South African Defence Force, is that correct? MR NGWENYA That is correct. MR SIBEKO The one you say remained, what happened to it? MR NGWENYA This one was sent to the Committee of Seven. I think they took it to the stadium or Polla Park. MR SIBEKO Is there any other incident that you would want us to know? MR NGWENYA No. MR SIBEKO Will I be correct therefore to say that your application is for amnesty with respect to keeping unlicensed arms at your place, secondly, giving shelter to the people who did not actually own those houses, and yourself not having permission to do that, lawful permission to do that? MR NGWENYA That is correct. MR SIBEKO Thank you, Mr Chairman, no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SIBEKO CHAIRPERSON Thank you. ADV STEENKAMP No questions, thank you, Sir. CHAIRPERSON Panel? ADV SANDI Thank you, Chair. Mr Ngwenya, do you know of any specific incidents of attack for which members of the SDUs came to you to ask for firearms? MR NGWENYA Many things were happening, soldiers would come to me looking for firearms but they would not come to me directly, they would talk to the commander and not myself. ADV SANDI You are not able to say on such and such a date if you recall the date, soldiers came to me to ask for arms so that they could attack such and such a place, are you able to say that? MR NGWENYA What I know is when Mazibuko was shot, a soldier called Stambo came and took one firearm and shot Mr Mazibuko. That is one incident that I can testify to. ADV SANDI Who was shot, are you saying Mr Mazibuko or they shot at Mr Mazibuko? MR NGWENYA It was Mr Mazibuko whose house was at the corner in my same street. ADV SANDI Why was Mr Mazibuko shot, was he also a member of the IFP? MR NGWENYA He was a prominent leader of the IFP. ADV SANDI Thank you, Mr Ngwenya. Thank you, Chair. CHAIRPERSON You had how many Scorpions? Is it Scorpio or Scorpion? MR NGWENYA We used to call it Scorpion. It was only one and we also had two AK47s. CHAIRPERSON And where did those arms come from? MR NGWENYA These firearms came from the Committee of Seven and I handed these to the commander. CHAIRPERSON Now, these firearms, the Scorpion and the two AK47 rifles, they were in your possession and you distributed them to SDU members? MR NGWENYA No, I did not keep these, they were kept at home. We had backyard rooms where these firearms were kept, that's where Makasonke kept these firearms and he kept the key to the rooms as well. CHAIRPERSON So these firearms, if I now understand you correctly, were kept by the commander of your SDU, Mr Mhlope? MR NGWENYA That is correct. CHAIRPERSON It was just in a outside room at your house? MR NGWENYA At home, that's my parents' home. CHAIRPERSON Were you in any way involved with these firearms, were you supposed to have kept an eye on them, guard them or whatever? MR NGWENYA I used to spend my time at the office at Mbele Street. CHAIRPERSON But was there anything that you had to do in respect of these firearms? MR NGWENYA No, there's nothing that I did with reference to the firearms, the commander was in charge of these. CHAIRPERSON But did you give him the place at the back to use to store the arms in? MR NGWENYA That is correct. CHAIRPERSON And you knew what the arms were going to be used for, for fighting, participating in the fight that was going on in the area? MR NGWENYA I knew that fully well. CHAIRPERSON You have never personally used any one of these firearms? MR NGWENYA Not even a single one. CHAIRPERSON Do you know whether there was ammunition as well that could be fired in these firearms? MR NGWENYA I never had access to the room, only the commander had access and even the soldiers did not have access to the room. CHAIRPERSON So you can't say whether there was ammunition as well, bullets in that room? MR NGWENYA There may have been some ammunition because they would come across ammunition during their patrols. Yes, there is that possibility. CHAIRPERSON This incident where Mr Mazibuko was shot, when did that happen? MR NGWENYA I have no idea when it happened, we woke up to this incident. CHAIRPERSON Which year or which month? MR NGWENYA It was in 1993, but I'm not quite sure of the month. CHAIRPERSON Now, you referred to one of the soldiers, SDU members, who came to take a firearm in connection with this incident of Mr Mazibuko. I think you used the word Stambo or whatever the name is, I might not have it right, is that correct? MR NGWENYA That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Did you give him that firearm or how did Stambo get the firearm? MR NGWENYA He got this firearm from the commander. When he came I was with the commander and many others. CHAIRPERSON What happened to Mr Mazibuko? MR NGWENYA He was taken by the soldiers, that was the last time I saw him. I think it was round about 3 o'clock in the afternoon. CHAIRPERSON By which soldiers was he taken? MR NGWENYA The Stability Unit. CHAIRPERSON Was he injured when the Stability Unit members took him? MR NGWENYA I did not see, they took another route. CHAIRPERSON But to your knowledge, was he injured or was he killed eventually, what happened? MR NGWENYA He was killed because Stambo did indicate that he is dead. CHAIRPERSON Was it an AK47 that was given to Stambo? MR NGWENYA That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Do you regard yourself as in any way involved in this incident around Mr Mazibuko? MR NGWENYA Yes, so much involved because the firearm that was used was kept at our home. CHAIRPERSON And did you know that Stambo was going to go and attack Mr Mazibuko with that AK47? MR NGWENYA Such things were not discussed. A person would be given a firearm, he would not indicate who he was going to shoot. CHAIRPERSON But you realised when the AK47 was given to Stambo, that he was likely to go and use it to shoot somebody with? MR NGWENYA No, I would not say that, I thought he was just going on a normal patrol. CHAIRPERSON But one assumes you realised that taking the gun, going on a normal patrol, under those circumstances also the firearm can be used to kill or injure somebody, not so? MR NGWENYA Yes, that was possible, anything could have happened. CHAIRPERSON And is this the only incident that you are aware of? MR NGWENYA This is the only incident that I can testify to, something that happened within my knowledge. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Sibeko, re-examination? MR SIBEKO None, Mr Chairman, thank you. ADV SANDI Mr Ngwenya, what about those incidents which were not known to you, incidents in which people may have been attacked and killed with the same weapons, would you take responsibility for that? MR NGWENYA Yes, I am involved because firearms that were used were kept at home. ADV SANDI You were keeping the firearms at home, not so? MR NGWENYA Yes. ADV SANDI Thank you. Thank you, Chair. CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Ngwenya, you are excused. WITNESS EXCUSED ADV STEENKAMP Mr Chairman, may I just put something on record about this Mr Mazibuko, the person that was killed. I'm informed, Mr Chairman, Honourable Members, that the only member that could be traced according to the people who are currently staying at the house where Mr Mazibuko was killed, is the brother of Mr Mazibuko, the brother of the late Mr Mazibuko. This family member has left the area and could not be traced as well. So regarding this specific incident no further in information regarding the family could be traced at all. Further enquiries were also made in the area and this Mr Mazibuko was well-known but no further information could traced or could be got to identify any of the family members of Mr Mazibuko, except the brother who is apparently still alive but could not be traced. He left the area a few years back. Thank you, Mr Chairman.