amntrans AMNESTY HEARING 1998-12-01 PALM RIDGE 6 WILFRED THABO MIYA AM 7341/97 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53028&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1998/9811231210_pr_981201th.htm MR SIBEKO Mr Chairman, may I be excused now, Ms Nhlayisi will proceed? CHAIRPERSON Yes, Mr Sibeko, you are excused. We will proceed with the next application but I want you to just put yourself on record first before we proceed to hear the next applicant. MS NHLAYISI Thank you, Mr Chairman, the name is Z N Nhlayisi, spelt: N-H-L-A-Y-I-S-I. The first application is that of Wilfred Thabo Miya, amnesty application number AM 7341/97, on page 80, Lusaka-B. CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much, Ms Nhlayisi. Will Mr Miya come to the witness stand please. Mr Miya, please stand and give your full names for the record. MR MIYA My name is Wilfred Thabo Miya from Thokoza. I'm Thabo Wilfred Miya. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. WIFRED THABO MIYA (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Thank you, you can sit down. Ms Nhlayisi? EXAMINATION BY MS NHLAYISI Thank you, Mr Chairperson. Mr Miya, you're the applicant in this matter, you've applied for amnesty, is that correct? MR MIYA That is correct. MS NHLAYISI Were you a member of the SDUs, that is the Self Defence Units in Thokoza? MR MIYA That is correct. MS NHLAYISI Which year did you join the Self Defence Unit? MR MIYA 1993. MS NHLAYISI Under whose command were you? MR MIYA During 1993? MS NHLAYISI At the time you were a member of the Self Defence Unit, who was your commander? MR MIYA Makasonke Mhlope. MS NHLAYISI Did you at any stage participate in any acts of violence during the time you were a member? MR MIYA That is correct. MS NHLAYISI Do you have any specific incidents that you remember which you wish to bring to the attention of this forum? MR MIYA That is correct. MS NHLAYISI Which incident do you want to bring to the attention of this forum, that you were involved in? MR MIYA When I joined the Self Defence Unit there was a certain man who got injured in my street. He was being assaulted and I joined in. I assaulted. That is when the Stability Unit appeared and we scattered and ran away. MS NHLAYISI You're saying that this incident occurred in your street, which street are you referring to? MR MIYA My street is Kakatu but this incident took place at Mbele Street. MS NHLAYISI Did you know this person that was stoned? MR MIYA No, I do not know his identity. MS NHLAYISI Do you know why he was stoned? MR MIYA Yes, I do. MS NHLAYISI Could you tell this forum why he was stoned? MR MIYA Because he was a member of Inkatha and he was a hostel dweller but at the same time he had a shack within our own residential area. On that particular day he had come to pick up his belongings. MS NHLAYISI Do you know perhaps what happened to this person? Did he die at the scene or what happened? MR MIYA I ran away when the Stability Unit appeared. He was writhing and screaming at that time. MS NHLAYISI Was he injured? MR MIYA Definitely, he should have been. MS NHLAYISI So you won't be in a position to tell whether at a later stage he died or what happened to him? MR MIYA No, I wouldn't be in a position to say what happened to him thereafter. MS NHLAYISI You're also saying that you did participate in stoning him. MR MIYA Yes, I did. MS NHLAYISI Is there anything else that you wish to add relating to that particular incident? MR MIYA No, there's absolutely nothing. As I said, I picked up a gun, I kept it for two days. MS NHLAYISI Where did you pick this firearm? MR MIYA We took from a certain man who was being chased and that gun fell and we, I picked it up but my commander took it at a later stage. MS NHLAYISI Did you at any stage during those two days, use this firearm to shoot at somebody or to commit any act of violence? MR MIYA No, I never made use of the gun. MS NHLAYISI Why did the commander take it away from you? MR MIYA I wasn't experienced in the use of guns and he saw that I had a gun with, then he ordered me to hand it over and I did. MS NHLAYISI Is there any other incident that you can remember wherein you were involved except the two that you have just mentioned? MR MIYA I'm through, I've just exhausted whatever I did. MS NHLAYISI If I may remind you. During our consultation you referred to an incident which involved a person from Inkantla, would you mind telling this forum about that particular incident? MR MIYA This Inkantla issue, this man came to us whilst we were at Givani. He was coming from the Penduka section and there is a line of demarkation between ANC members as well as Inkatha members. This person was moving from the Penduka section, heading towards us and asked us where the Kweseni industry was because he was looking for a job. He had earlier been phoned by his brother who said he will get him a job. MS NHLAYISI So after this particular person has asked for directions, what happened with him or what did you do with him? MR MIYA We said we were going to accompany him and show him a shortcut towards Kweseni. A group of people appeared, they searched him and he was in possession of an IFP membership card. They took him with and we went back. MS NHLAYISI You didn't do anything to this particular person, you left him with these other people? MR MIYA No, we never touched him, we never did anything to him. He was left with the other group. MS NHLAYISI You don't know what happened to him at a later stage? You don't have any knowledge of that? MR MIYA I have absolutely none. MS NHLAYISI Were you at any stage, Mr Miya, issued with a weapon? MR MIYA No. MS NHLAYISI What was your participation as the member of the Self Defence Unit without a firearm? MR MIYA It's because I wasn't able to use a gun I used to ferry food to the bases and check as to whether they were still intact. MS NHLAYISI So you were never issued with a firearm, as a result you never shot at anybody or ...(intervention) MR MIYA That is correct. MS NHLAYISI So basically you are applying for amnesty for the incident that occurred at Mbele Street where somebody was stoned and the fact that at some stage you were in possession of an unlicensed firearm, that is the .38 special that you picked up, is that correct? MR MIYA That is correct. MS NHLAYISI I observe, Mr Miya, that you are appearing here today in prison uniform, are you in prison for any of the activities in the Self Defence Unit? MR MIYA No. MS NHLAYISI Thank you, Mr Chairman, I have nothing further. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS NHLAYISI CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Advocate Steenkamp? ADV STEENKAMP No questions, thank you, Mr Chairman. NO QUESTIONS BY MR STEENKAMP CHAIRPERSON Panel? ADV SANDI Mr Miya, this incident you've spoken about, where you say you took part in stoning a member of the IFP, who was with you then? MR MIYA There were a lot of people, even from neighbouring sections but the person I saw and I was able to identify was Stambo, the late Stambo. ADV SANDI The other incident where you say it was at Inkantla, you attacked a man there, do you know the people that were with you? MR MIYA I was together with other members of the community. ADV SANDI Are there any of them who have applied for amnesty, did you see any one of them appearing before this Committee? MR MIYA Yes, there is one. ADV SANDI Who was that? MR MIYA It's Darryl Khumalo. ADV SANDI Thank you. Thank you, Chair. ADV GCABASHE In fact, just to follow up and that. Yesterday we had evidence from Siphiwe Madondo who is also a Lusaka-B member, do you know him, Siphiwe? MR MIYA Yes, I do. ADV GCABASHE He too spoke of a man who had an IFP card who was trying to find his way to Kweseni, was he with you when you came across that Inkantla man? MR MIYA I don't remember because there were quite a lot of us. ADV GCABASHE But when that man was eventually attacked, you weren't there? MR MIYA No, I wasn't there. ADV GCABASHE Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Ms Nhlayisi, any re-examination? MS NHLAYISI No re-examination, Mr Chairperson, thank you. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MS NHLAYISI CHAIRPERSON Thank you, very much. Mr Miya, thank you, you are excused. WITNESS EXCUSED