amntrans AMNESTY HEARING 1998-12-01 PALM RIDGE 6 SAKKIE SAKHILE MASEKO AM 7084/97 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53030&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1998/9811231210_pr_981201th.htm MS NHLAYISI: The next application will be that of Sakkie Sakhile Maseko, amnesty application 7084/97, on page 32, Lusaka-B. CHAIRPERSON Mr Maseko, can you hear? MR MASEKO Yes, I can hear. CHAIRPERSON Please stand and give us your full names for the record please. SAKKIE SAKHILE MASEKO (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Thank you, please sit down. Ms Nhlayisi? EXAMINATION BY MS NHLAYISI Thank you, Mr Chair. Mr Maseko, at some stage you were a member of the Self Defence Unit in Lusaka-B, Thokoza, is that correct? MR MASEKO That is correct. MS NHLAYISI You have now applied for amnesty regarding the activities that you had at the time you were a member of the Self Defence Unit, is that correct? MR MASEKO That is correct. CHAIRPERSON I'm sorry, sorry. Mr Maseko, when you answer you just switch it on and you can just speak from where you sit. You don't have to go to close to it because it's very sensitive, it picks you up. So we will hear you but you don't need to close, sit where you are and just switch in on, right? Thank you. Please proceed, Ms Nhlayisi. MS NHLAYISI Thank you, Mr Chair. When did you join the Self Defence Unit? MR MASEKO During the year 1993. MS NHLAYISI Were you forced to join the Self Defence Unit or did you join voluntarily? MR MASEKO I wasn't forced, I joined voluntarily. MS NHLAYISI Under whose command were you at the time you were in the Self Defence Unit? MR MASEKO It was Makasonke Mhlope. MS NHLAYISI Did you at any stage participate in any acts of violence during the time you were a member of the Self Defence Unit? MR MASEKO That is correct. MS NHLAYISI Do you wish to mention those incidents where you participated? MR MASEKO It was during 1993, we were patrolling the area. As we were patrolling the area we heard five shots. As we were patrolling we heard some gunfire from the Slovo section. We were visited by Makasonke the commander, with a message that he received a call through the talk radios, that they were being attacked and they needed some assistance. As a result Makasonke and I had to go to the Slovo section to offer our assistance and we discovered that the gunfire was going on. I had my AK with me and we joined the other comrades and we shot at the other members of the SPU, until such time as the Internal Stability Unit was there or called to the scene. At that stage we dispersed. One of our members was shot by the police. I threw away the AK47 and rushed back to the area. That is the story. MS NHLAYISI Can you explain who were the people who were attacking at Slovo, when you were called that you should come and render assistance? MR MASEKO These were the members of Inkatha, who were called the Self Protection Unit. MS NHLAYISI You mentioned that you were in possession of an AK47, where did you get this firearm? MR MASEKO It had been given me by my commander, Mhlope. MS NHLAYISI During this incident when this shooting took place, did you observe whether you shot, killed or injured anybody? MR MASEKO No, I did not. MS NHLAYISI But you cannot rule out the possibility that somebody might have been killed or injured in this particular incident? MR MASEKO No, I cannot deny that. MS NHLAYISI You further mentioned that you dropped this AK47 as you were running away from the members of the Internal Stability Unit, did you go back to recover it or did you leave it there and you don't know what happened to it thereafter? MR MASEKO I never went back because one of our members died during that time and I was scared that I would also get killed. MS NHLAYISI So you don't know what happened to this particular firearm at all? MR MASEKO I have no idea. MS NHLAYISI Is there any other incident that you were involved in except this one at Slovo? MR MASEKO Yes, we used to barricade and conduct some patrols because we had the problem of attackers attacking during the night and forcing to us to go and attack the Xhosas, saying that the Xhosas were ANC members and therefore they had to be attacked. MS NHLAYISI So you were only involved in these incidents of barricading and no violence took place during those incidents? MR MASEKO Yes, that is correct. MS NHLAYISI So what you are applying for amnesty for is this particular incident at Slovo because you think you might have shot, killed or injured somebody and the fact that you were in possession of an unlicensed firearm and ammunition? MR MASEKO That is correct. MS NHLAYISI Thank you, Mr Chair, I have nothing further. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS NHLAYISI CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much. Advocate Steenkamp, any questions? ADV STEENKAMP No questions, thank you, Mr Chairman. NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY ADV STEENKAMP CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Panel? ADV SANDI Mr Maseko, I have the impression whenever I listen to everyone of you testifying, I have this impression that you were generally very inexperienced, in fact amateurish, very amateurish in the use of firearms, would I be correct in that impression? MR MASEKO Yes, that is correct. ADV SANDI Now tell me, as you would from time to time get into a confrontation with these members of the IFP and SPU, what was your impression, did you have the impression that these were people who were very skilful, very well trained in the use of arms? What was your impression about their level of ability to use firearms? MR MASEKO I would not be able to shed any light on that aspect because I've never actually had an opportunity to be close to them so as to observe them. ADV SANDI But what was the general prevailing attitude amongst members of the SDUs, was it the perception that you were fighting people who were much more trained, far better trained than you guys were? MR MASEKO Yes, when they come there they used to call themselves "Amabuto" and they would pride themselves in being experienced with regard to shooting. That is what they used to say. ADV SANDI Is that to say that it was your impression that they were better off than you in terms of ability to use firearms, is that what you are saying? MR MASEKO I'm not able to say anything. ADV SANDI Okay, thank you, Mr Maseko. Thank you, Chair. CHAIRPERSON Any re-examination? MS NHLAYISI No re-examination, Mr Chair, thank you. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MS NHLAYISI CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Maseko, you are excused. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON Sorry, we intend to adjourn the proceedings at this stage. There are some commitments that I have to attend to, which would necessitate us to leave at this stage. We'll adjourn the proceedings until tomorrow morning at 09H30. So we are adjourned until tomorrow morning at 09H30. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS