amntrans AMNESTY HEARING 1998-12-02 PALM RIDGE 7 JEREMIAH VELAPHI MAZIBUKO AM 7020/97 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53032&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1998/9811231210_pr_981202th.htm MS NHLAYISI: The next applicant is Jeremiah Velaphi Mazibuko. His application appears on page 1 of the Lusaka-B bundle, amnesty application number AM 7020/97. ADV STEENKAMP Mr Chairman, may I be so rude to interrupt here for a moment. While we are on Lusaka-B, I'm informed that the application of Mr Pakati which appears on page 162, Lusaka-B, he's deceased recently. That's is Mr Buksomolo Kaizer Pakati of Lusaka-B, page 162. Thank you, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Are you saying that Mr Pakati is deceased? ADV STEENKAMP That is correct, Mr Chairman, he is deceased. Thank you, Sir. CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) about what should happen to that application? Mr Mazibuko, can you hear? MR MAZIBUKO Yes, I can hear. CHAIRPERSON Please stand and then you give us your full names for the purposes of the record please. JEREMIAH VELAPHI MAZIBUKO (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Thank you, please sit down. Ms Nhlayisi? EXAMINATION BY MS NHLAYISI As the Chair pleases. Mr Mazibuko, you were a member of the Self Defence Unit in Lusaka-B, Thokoza, is that correct? MR MAZIBUKO That is correct. MS NHLAYISI When did you join the SDUs? MR MAZIBUKO During 1993. MS NHLAYISI You're now applying for amnesty for your participation in the activities of the SDU, is that correct? MR MAZIBUKO That is correct. MS NHLAYISI Under whose command were you at the time you were a member? MR MAZIBUKO It was Makasonke Mhlope. MS NHLAYISI Do you have any specific incidents that you would like to bring to the attention of this forum, wherein you were involved in activities of violence towards other people? MR MAZIBUKO Yes. MS NHLAYISI Do you wish to name those incidents? MR MAZIBUKO It was myself, the late Stambu, Siphiwe and Muzi. Stambu had an AK47, I had a hammer. The other two were not armed. We went to Mhlongo, House number 1251. MS NHLAYISI When did this ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Just hold on, just hold on. We have to make a note of what you are saying, all that information that you tell us is very important to decide your application. When you speak then they translate for us down there so that we can hear what you are saying in English, alright? So you must please go a bit slower and give us a chance just to take down what you are saying, otherwise we wouldn't know what it is that you were trying to tell us. Now you said that Stambu had an AK47 rifle, alright? What else? MR MAZIBUKO Stambu had an AK47, I had a hammer and the other two were not armed. We went to Mazibuko's place. Mazibuko was a tenant in that particular house. Stambu knocked at the door ...(intervention) ADV GCABASHE Mr Mazibuko was a resident where, in Lusaka-B? MR MAZIBUKO That is correct. MS NHLAYISI In which year did this particular incident take place? MR MAZIBUKO That was during the same year I joined, during 1993. MS NHLAYISI You said Mazibuko resided - you said that you went to a house in Mhlongo Street, can you identify this particular house? MR MAZIBUKO It was Mr Soko's house. MS NHLAYISI Do you know the address there? MR MAZIBUKO Yes, I do, the address is number 1251, Mhlongo Street. MS NHLAYISI What transpired on your arrival at this house? MR MAZIBUKO Stambu knocked at the door with his AK47. Somebody opened the door and Stambu shot at the man who opened the door and gave the AK to Muzi, who is now late. Siphiwe also give the AK and a chance to shoot. We thereafter fled. ADV GCABASHE What did Muzi do with that firearm? Stambu gave him the AK47, and then? MR MAZIBUKO Muzi also shot. Siphiwe was also given the AK47 by Muzi and Siphiwe also had his turn at shooting the victim. MS NHLAYISI Okay, after Muzi and Siphiwe shot this person, you said you then ran away, is that correct? MR MAZIBUKO That is correct, that is so. MS NHLAYISI At the time you fled, did you realise whether this particular person was injured or dead? MR MAZIBUKO I have no clarity because we ran thereafter. MS NHLAYISI Did you at any later stage maybe gather any information as to whether he died or he survived the attack? MR MAZIBUKO We were told at a later stage that that person died. MS NHLAYISI Do you know who this particular person is? MR MAZIBUKO I do not know his name, all I know is that he was a Mazibuko. MS NHLAYISI Yourself, you did not shoot that particular day, is that correct? MR MAZIBUKO That is correct. MS NHLAYISI However you knew at the time when you went to this particular place, that the purpose of going there was to attack this particular person? MR MAZIBUKO Yes, I did. MS NHLAYISI Before going there you might have foreseen that the circumstances of your action might be fatal, that the consequences might be fatal? MR MAZIBUKO That is correct. MS NHLAYISI You said you had a hammer with you, what did you intend doing with this hammer? MR MAZIBUKO I was going to knock the door down had he resisted our presence. MS NHLAYISI But it was never used? MR MAZIBUKO That is correct. CHAIRPERSON I'm sorry, just a minute. Can you repeat that question please, they were translating. ...(inaudible) when you asked a question so I didn't hear that at all. MS NHLAYISI The hammer that you had in your possession, you say it was intended to open the door but it was never used because this occupant of this house voluntarily opened the door, is that correct? MR MAZIBUKO That is so. MS NHLAYISI Are there any other incidents wherein you were involved, except this one at Mhlongo Street? MR MAZIBUKO No. MS NHLAYISI Were you at any stage during your membership as an SDU, involved in acts like patrolling the street, barricading the street and so forth? MR MAZIBUKO No, I was never involved in any other incident. MS NHLAYISI Were you actively involved in meetings wherein attacks and defence actions were being planned? MR MAZIBUKO No, I never used to attend any meetings. MS NHLAYISI So the only activity is this one at Mhlongo Street? You're saying at no stage were you in possession of an unlicensed firearm? MR MAZIBUKO That is so. MS NHLAYISI You knew the activities of your fellow members in the SDU, that they were involved in shootouts, whether in defence of your community or whatever, you agreed with what they were doing at that stage? MR MAZIBUKO That is so. MS NHLAYISI So you are asking this forum to grant you amnesty for your participation in the incident in Mhlongo Street wherein a person was killed, and other activities involving the SDU members, which activities you agreed with? MR MAZIBUKO That is correct. MS NHLAYISI Thank you, Mr Chair, I have nothing further. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS NHLAYISI CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Questions Advocate Steenkamp? ADV STEENKAMP No questions, thank you, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Questions by the Panel? ADV SANDI Thank you, Chair. Mr Mazibuko, in your application form at page 2, you say: "I was involved in a number of defensive actions when the IFP attacked our section." Which actions are you referring to? MR MAZIBUKO This could be a mistake on the part of the writer of the statement. ADV SANDI How did it come to your knowledge that Mr Mazibuko had died? MR MAZIBUKO I heard from some members of the community that he had died. ADV SANDI Were you involved in attempts to try and get firearms for the SDUs? MR MAZIBUKO No. ADV SANDI You had nothing to do with the keeping of weapons whatsoever? MR MAZIBUKO No. ADV SANDI Did you take part in conducting acts of surveillance to try and follow the movements of certain members of the IFP so that they could be attacked? MR MAZIBUKO No, I was never involved. ADV SANDI Did you at stage point out any target or person to be attacked by the SDUs? MR MAZIBUKO No. ...(end of tape) ADV SANDI As to attack where and when? MR MAZIBUKO I've already told you I've never been to a meeting. ADV SANDI Thank you. Thank you, Chair. ADV GCABASHE Thank you, Chair. Mr Mazibuko, can I just go back to the attack at Mhlongo Street, whose house was that? MR MAZIBUKO It was Mr Soko's house. ADV GCABASHE ...(inaudible) MR MAZIBUKO ...(no English translation) ADV GCABASHE Spelt: S-O-G-O? MR MAZIBUKO S-O-K-O. ADV GCABASHE Now did Stambu - let me start with this, Stambu essentially was leading the group of four on this particular attack? MR MAZIBUKO That is so. ADV GCABASHE Did he tell you why you were targeting Mazibuko? MR MAZIBUKO Because Mazibuko was a member of Inkatha and he was coercing members of the community into joining his particular organisation. ADV GCABASHE Did you know this Mr Mazibuko? MR MAZIBUKO Yes, I did know him as a tenant at Mr Soko's house. ADV GCABASHE And were you aware that he was an IFP member and that he was involved in forcing people to join the IFP? MR MAZIBUKO Yes, that is correct, I did. ADV GCABASHE How many people were in that house, do you know, when you got there? MR MAZIBUKO I wouldn't know because we did this towards dawn. ADV GCABASHE The person who opened the door was Mazibuko himself? MR MAZIBUKO That is correct. ADV GCABASHE And he is the only person who was killed in that incident? MR MAZIBUKO Yes, that is correct, we wanted him specifically. ADV GCABASHE Thank you, Mr Mazibuko. Thank you, Chair. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Mazibuko, can I just pick up on the questions that Advocate Sandi had asked you, which is again important for our purposes. The application form also refers to the fact that you were involved in defensive actions in respect of other sections in Thokoza, what is your comment on that? MR MAZIBUKO Could you repeat the question please? CHAIRPERSON Certainly. The application form which is here before us says that you were also involved in defensive actions of other sections of Thokoza, now what is your comment on that part of the application? MR MAZIBUKO That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Can you give us some details about that, which sections you helped to defend first of all? MR MAZIBUKO It was the Slovo section. CHAIRPERSON And how did you help to defend the Slovo section, what were you doing? MR MAZIBUKO We went there to base. We kept a lookout for Inkatha members so that they couldn't advance and attack. CHAIRPERSON Were you involved in any fighting with Inkatha in the Slovo section? MR MAZIBUKO No, we did not get involved in any fight. CHAIRPERSON And were you armed when you based in Slovo section? MR MAZIBUKO I had a petrol bomb. CHAIRPERSON Did you ever use that petrol bomb? MR MAZIBUKO No, I never did. CHAIRPERSON And the other SDU members that were with you, were some of them armed with firearms? MR MAZIBUKO Yes, that is so. Two of them were armed. CHAIRPERSON With AK47s? MR MAZIBUKO No, they had pistols. CHAIRPERSON Were they members of your SDU in Lusaka-B? MR MAZIBUKO That is so. CHAIRPERSON And did those two pistols belong to the SDU? MR MAZIBUKO That is so. CHAIRPERSON Did your commander used to hand out the pistols if you have to go and do something? MR MAZIBUKO No, that is not so. CHAIRPERSON Do you know where those pistols came from? MR MAZIBUKO No, I had no idea. CHAIRPERSON And that AK47 that Stambu had? MR MAZIBUKO Yes, I do. CHAIRPERSON Tell us about that. MR MAZIBUKO He told me that it had been given to him by the late Makasonke Mhlope, who was a commander then. CHAIRPERSON Now just in regard to that incident, did you understand that that was an order that was given for your group to go and attack Mr Mazibuko? MR MAZIBUKO That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Any re-examination, Ms Nhlayisi? RE-EXAMINATION BY MS NHLAYISI Thank you, Mr Chair, I've got one question. Mr Mazibuko, when you were asked whose house it was that you attacked that particular day where this Mr Mazibuko was killed, you said the house belonged to one, Soko, is that correct? MR MAZIBUKO That is correct. MS NHLAYISI Do you remember that when we consulted yesterday you gave an explanation that this Mazibuko that you attacked was a lodger at Sibusiso Coka's parental house? MR MAZIBUKO Yes, that is so. MS NHLAYISI Were you mistaken earlier today when you were asked and you said it Soko instead of Coka? MR MAZIBUKO Could you please repeat your question? MS NHLAYISI I'm saying earlier today you were asked whose house it was, you said it was Soko's house but yesterday you said it's Coka's house, were you mistaken this morning when you said it's Soko's house? MR MAZIBUKO Yes, it is so. MS NHLAYISI So this person lived at your fellow comrades parental home, that Sibusiso Coka's house, is that correct? MR MAZIBUKO That is correct. MS NHLAYISI Thank you, Mr Chair, I have nothing further. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS NHLAYISI CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Won't you just give us the spelling of that surname, Ms Nhlayisi. MS NHLAYISI The surname is spelt C-O-K-A. CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much. ADV GCABASHE On that point, did Sibusiso Coka tell you about Mazibuko living at his house or was that common knowledge anyway? MR MAZIBUKO Could you repeat your question please? ADV GCABASHE Did Sibusiso tell you about that tenant, Mazibuko, or did everybody know that this Mazibuko lived at Sibusiso's parental home? MR MAZIBUKO We knew as members of the community that he lived there. ADV GCABASHE Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mazibuko, thank you very much, you are excused. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON We'll take the tea adjournment at this stage. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION CHAIRPERSON Ms Nhlayisi, which is the next matter? ADV STEENKAMP Mr Chairman, excuse me, I have more information on, if it's ...(indistinct). I've spoken to Mr Mazibuko, that was the previous applicant who testified about the attack on the house of Mr Mazibuko. Now we've traced Mr Richard Mazibuko who was actually at the time of the incident inside the house. The other Mr Mazibuko who was killed was actually his brother, Mr Infren Mazibuko. I'll just spell the name: I-N-F-R-E-N, Mr Infren Mazibuko. CHAIRPERSON How do you spell that? ADV STEENKAMP Mr Chairman, I-N-F-R-E-N, Mazibuko. He was killed. The Mr Richard Mazibuko that was here was actually seriously injured. The other person that was killed in the house was this Mr Richard Mazibuko's daughter, Nkosana Mazibuko. Sorry, it's a little boy, Mr Nkosana Mazibuko. At the time of the incident he was one year and six months old, at the time of the attack. Mr Richard Mazibuko's wife, Anna Mazibuko was also killed at the time of the incident, she was inside the house. CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) ADV STEENKAMP Anna Mazibuko. CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) ADV STEENKAMP She was also killed in this incident. So there were three people killed and Mr Richard Mazibuko was injured. He says at the time of the incident he was not a member of the Inkatha Freedom Party. He however stayed in the Zulu section. CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) ADV STEENKAMP I can't hear. The person that was killed was the brother of Mr Richard Mazibuko, who is here today. CHAIRPERSON Would you complete just putting all of that on record, Advocate Steenkamp. You were saying that Richard Mazibuko says he's not an IFP member and what else? ADV STEENKAMP But he stayed in the Zulu section. According to him, Mr Chairman, there were five in the attack. He can't identify them but as far as his knowledge serves him there were five people who attacked the house, not four. He says he doesn't want to testify at all. He feels that the normal course of the law must take its course and the applicants must be prosecuted for their deeds. On the other hand he is not opposing the application. I can just state on record that he also says that he has forgiven the applicants for what they've done to his family, and in the spirit of reconciliation he will forgive them. He has asked me to put on record that his prepared to meet the applicants as well as their co-ordinator or leader, Mr Duma Nkosi. A meeting has been scheduled between Mr Duma Nkosi, the applicants and their legal team. The last thing. There is only one concern he has Mr Chairman, and that is he still fears his safety where he is actually staying now. From my side I've instructed the police to patrol his house for the next few days. Mr Duma Nkosi has indicated that they will also assist in this problem. That is all I want to put on record, thank you, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Now Advocate Steenkamp, this obviously introduces another angle into this matter and what you have placed on record seems to differ, and if it doesn't differ then it seems to add aspects of this incident which this particular applicant, the previous applicant, Mr Mazibuko has not referred to. Although there is no evidence before us, and it is just the circumstances that you have placed on record here, would it not be appropriate that this ought to be put to the applicant and for the applicant to deal with this so that we have a complete picture? ADV STEENKAMP Mr Chairman, that was actually my second request, that there is no specific reason why I've put this on record now. The reason is, Mr Mazibuko was present here this morning, but due to circumstances I think he left the hearing and I couldn't speak to him at all. The reason being that he wasn't actually feeling very comfortable to be in the hall here this morning. That was actually the reason. I met him again just during the break, just before he left. But I agree full heatedly, I think it's just fair to the previous applicant to put Mr Mazibuko's version to the applicant. There will probably be two or three questions, Mr Chairman. If that could be allowed. I've tried to convince, and I've spoken to Mr Mazibuko about his testimony and probably a sworn statement but he is of the opinion that he doesn't want to take that avenue at all. MS NHLAYISI Mr Chair, may I say something before you proceed? There's something that I'd like to clarify before you proceed. The previous applicant has mentioned that they made an attack on somebody by the name of Mazibuko, but there is another applicant who is going to come at a later stage with an incident that relates to another family of Mazibuko. I think this is the incident that my colleague is referring to, wherein one, Anna and the child were involved. It's not the incident that the previous applicant has mentioned. That incident that's mentioned by my colleague is going to be mentioned by one, Sibusiso Coka, who was involved in that particular incident. So there are two Mazibuko families that were involved in these incidents. ADV STEENKAMP Mr Chairman, I'm very sorry that I've caused a concern, and the difficulty is in the information but even Mr Mazibuko was of the opinion that it was the same incident, but we will take is it is, Sir, thanks. CHAIRPERSON So you say that Mr Richard Mazibuko was present here earlier but that he had left, he's not longer here? ADV STEENKAMP No, he's available, Mr Chairman, he is available now. I told him to be available. He will be staying here for the meeting that is scheduled for 1 o'clock. He is available now. ADV SANDI Mr Steenkamp, did Mr Richard Mazibuko tell you the address because I thought the previous witness said the address of the house that was attacked was House number 1251? Are we talking about the same house? ADV STEENKAMP Mr Chairman, probably not. I didn't get his full address but that can be taken. He was of the opinion that the Mr Mazibuko that was attacked was probably his brother, but he didn't have any information. He says it was dark and he didn't know they were. When he heard the testimony he was of the opinion it was the same incident, but probably it was not. I'm sure that can be sorted out. CHAIRPERSON Yes, we would obviously like to hear the other application that Ms Nhlayisi is talking about so that we have a better idea of what this is all about. ADV SANDI Thank you. CHAIRPERSON We suggest that you - if Mr Richard Mazibuko is available, that you clarify this thing with him about this address and hear whether he is possibly mistaken and mistakenly assumed that what the applicant, Mazibuko was referring to was the death of his brother, his late brother Infren Mazibuko, and that might be something else. I want to suggest that you clarify that so that we can deal with this thing whilst Mr Richard Mazibuko is still available, so that whatever must be put to applicants are put to them and whatever evidence we should take in respect of a particular incident, is taken when the people who can shed light on that are available to do so. So bear that in mind. We will listen to the next application in the meantime. MS NHLAYISI In the circumstances, Mr Chairman, I would request that this particular applicant should stand down and then I'll call Sibusiso Coka, who has an incident that relates to a Mazibuko family, so that we can do that before Mr Mazibuko leaves. If that is ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Yes, in fact that does make good sense. Yes, so won't you call that matter and we see where we go to.