amntrans AMNESTY HEARING 1998-12-02 PALM RIDGE 7 PATRICK SIBUSISO COKA AM 7059/97 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53033&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1998/9811231210_pr_981202th.htm MS NHLAYISI The next applicant will be Saki Sibusiso Coka. His application appears on page 24, Lusaka-B bundle, application AM 7059/97. CHAIRPERSON Yes, I assume that Mr Richard Mazibuko will be listening to the testimony that will be led now? ADV STEENKAMP That is correct, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Ms Nhlayisi, can we proceed? MS NHLAYISI Thank you, Mr Chair. CHAIRPERSON Mr Coka, do you hear? MR COKA Yes. CHAIRPERSON Won't you please stand and give your full names for the record? PATRICK SIBUSISO COKA (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Thank you, please sit down. Ms Nhlayisi? EXAMINATION BY MS NHLAYISI As the Chair pleases. Mr Coka, you were a member of the Self Defence Unit in Lusaka-B, Thokoza, is that correct? MR COKA Yes, that is correct. MS NHLAYISI When did you join the Self Defence Unit? MR COKA In 1993. MS NHLAYISI You are here today to bring an application for amnesty for your activities as a member of the Self Defence Unit, is that correct? MR COKA Yes, that is correct. MS NHLAYISI Do you have any specific incidents in mind that you'd like to bring to the attention of this forum, for which you'd like to be granted amnesty? MR COKA Yes, I do. MS NHLAYISI Would you go on and mention those? MR COKA One day there was a house, number 1248, Mgivani Street. There were IFP members there ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON ...(indistinct) please won't you repeat that? Interpreter, just give us that address and that name again please. INTERPRETER House number 1248, Mgivani Street. ADV GCABASHE Section? MR COKA Lusaka-B. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. You may proceed. MS NHLAYISI You say that you had information that at this house number 1248 Mgivani Street, Lusaka-B, there were members of the Inkatha Freedom Party, is that correct? MR COKA Yes, that is correct. MS NHLAYISI So when you went there, what was the purpose, what did you want to go and do there? MR COKA We went there to attack and kill. MS NHLAYISI Who gave the instructions that you should go and launch an attack at this particular house? MR COKA Our commander, Makasonke Mhlope gave us the instruction. MS NHLAYISI You yourself, were you armed on this particular day? MR COKA No, I was unarmed. MS NHLAYISI How many members of your unit were there who participated in this attack? MR COKA Will you please repeat the question? MS NHLAYISI How many were you who participated in this particular attack on this house in Mgivani Street? MR COKA It was a lot of us. MS NHLAYISI How many were in possession of weapons? MR COKA The only people that I saw clearly were only three people. MS NHLAYISI Do you know who were those who were in possession of weapons? MR COKA Yes, I can still remember the others. MS NHLAYISI Please mention them. MR COKA It was Stambu, Muzi and Siphiwe. They were armed with AK47s. MS NHLAYISI What happened at your arrival at this particular house? Just give details. MR COKA When we arrived there myself and Makasonke were in front. We were actually - we wanted to check if there were no police, and the others were following us with arms. We went through the backyard of the house. There were people who were safeguarding the other comrades. We went through the front because we were there to look for anything that might come and disturb, things like the Stability Unit and the police. They were left at the backyard and they went to knock at the door of the house number 1248, Mgivani Street. They went into the house and they shot, they fired ...(intervention) MS NHLAYISI Before you proceed, Mr Coka, do you know perhaps how many people entered this house? Because you said you remained outside and some entered, do you have an idea how many got into the house? MR COKA I could not see the number of people who went into the house but it was a lot of people. MS NHLAYISI You may proceed. What happened after they entered the house? MR COKA As we were standing outside we could not see what was happening in the house but we heard gunshots inside the house. The soldiers came through Mgivani Street, South African Defence Force. When the Casspir approached we saw it and we told the others who were armed to run away. That's when we left the place. MS NHLAYISI Do you have any information as to what actually happened inside that house, as to whether any people were killed or injured in this particular attack? MR COKA I heard the following morning that the people were injured. Yes, I heard the gunshots. MS NHLAYISI Did anybody die in this attack? MR COKA Yes, some people died there. MS NHLAYISI Do you have any information as to who those people are who died? Firstly, how many people did you get information about that died in this particular incident? MR COKA Two people died there. MS NHLAYISI Do you know their names? MR COKA Yes, I know their names. MS NHLAYISI Please mention those names. MR COKA It was Anna Ndlalosi and Notuku Ndlalosi. CHAIRPERSON What is that second name, Anna and who? MR COKA Notuku. ADV SANDI Tuku or Notuku? MS NHLAYISI Just spell the name. MR COKA Tuku. MS NHLAYISI Is it T-U ... MR COKA T-U-K-U. MS NHLAYISI Where did you get this information that these are the people who died in this attack? MR COKA I heard the people in the community talking about it and I also went there to see. MS NHLAYISI Are you certain that their surname is Ndlalosi or are you just guessing, that Anna's surname was Ndlalosi or you may be mistaken about this surname? MR COKA These people were my relatives. Anna was married to the Ndlalosi family. MS NHLAYISI Are you saying you were related to the deceased, that is Anna Ndlalosi? MR COKA Yes, we were relatives. MS NHLAYISI How are you related to her? MR COKA My mother is from - my mother's surname is Ndlalosi. MS NHLAYISI Did you personally have anything to do with giving out information to your comrades about these people in this house being IFP members? MR COKA Will you please repeat that question? MS NHLAYISI My question is, because you were related to this family and you're now alleging that they were IFP members that's why they were attacked, did you pass on this information to your comrades, that you know that those people because they're relatives, you have information that they are IFP members and that is why this particular attack was launched? MR COKA No, everyone knew that those people belonged to IFP. MS NHLAYISI There is information before this forum that a certain Mr Mazibuko has come up to say the people who died in this attack are his family, do you know anybody by the name of Mazibuko who is related to the deceased? MR COKA Yes, I do know that person. MS NHLAYISI Do you know who he is related to them? MR COKA Yes, I know. MS NHLAYISI Could you please specify? MR COKA This Mazibuko is the son-in-law, is Ndlalosi's son-in-law. MS NHLAYISI So on the night of this particular attack, when you went to this house in Mgivani Street you knew exactly that an attack was going to be launched and that people were going to be killed, is that correct? MR COKA Yes, that is correct. MS NHLAYISI Though you yourself didn't have a firearm in your possession, but you were in agreement with what your fellow comrades were doing or were going to do at this particular house, is that correct? MR COKA Yes, that is correct. MS NHLAYISI And you assisted them by maybe keeping watch as to whether police were coming and further that there was going to be no disturbance in their way when they were executing the attack, is that correct? MR COKA Yes, that is correct. MS NHLAYISI There's another incident that has been mentioned by the previous applicant, that is Jeremiah Velaphi Mazibuko. He mentioned that this particular incident occurred at your parental place. There was a tenant by the name of Mazibuko at your parental place, and he was attacked and he was killed, did you have anything to do with this particular attack at Mazibuko? MR COKA No. MS NHLAYISI Do you know whether this particular Mr Mazibuko was killed at you parental place, he's in any way related or associated with the Mazibuko family that was killed at Mgivani Street? MR COKA No, I don't know whether they were related or not. MS NHLAYISI You've never seen them together or associating in the past? You cannot rule out the possibility maybe that they are related or they are not? MR COKA I'll never know but I used to see them together. ADV GCABASHE You used to see who together? MR COKA The other Mazibuko, the one from Mgivani Street. MS NHLAYISI You say the Mazibuko who was killed at your parental place and the Mazibuko who's related to the deceased who were killed at Mgivani Street, you have at certain times seen them together and for that reason you cannot rule out the possibility that they are related, is that what you are saying? MR COKA Yes. MS NHLAYISI Did you at any stage give information to your fellow comrades about this Mazibuko who was residing at your parental place, that he was an IFP member and that he should be executed? MR COKA No, I did not tell them. MS NHLAYISI Were you in any way directly or indirectly involved in planning this particular attack on Mr Mazibuko? MR COKA No, I was not present. MS NHLAYISI Do you have information with you that on that particular night he was going to be attacked? MR COKA No. MS NHLAYISI So you were never informed about this particular attack? MR COKA Yes, that is correct. MS NHLAYISI Sir, except the incident that took place 1248 Mgivani Street, Lusaka-B, do you have any other incident that you'd like to bring to the attention of this forum? MR COKA No, nothing else besides the fact that I was patrolling and I was armed with a firearm. MS NHLAYISI You said you joined the SDU in 1993, is that correct? MR COKA Yes, that is correct. MS NHLAYISI You have on a number of occasions carried a firearm and patrolled the streets? MR COKA Yes, that is correct. MS NHLAYISI You associated yourself fully with whatever activities that were carried out by your fellow comrades at the time you were a member, is that correct? MR COKA Yes, that is correct. MS NHLAYISI So you are now bringing an application to be granted amnesty relating to the incident that took place at Mgivani Street where two people died, and the fact that at some stages when you were still a member of the SDU you carried an unlicensed firearm and you were in possession of ammunition, and for any other activities wherein you were associated by being a member of the SDU, is that correct? MR COKA Yes, that is correct. MS NHLAYISI Thank you, Mr Chair, at this stage I have nothing further. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS NHLAYISI CHAIRPERSON Yes, Advocate Steenkamp, I'm not sure whether the position is any clearer than it was earlier. Are you in a position to put questions to this witness or do you need to speak to Mr Richard Mazibuko? ADV STEENKAMP Mr Chairman, thanks for your indulgence. The position is the following: I'm informed that Mr Mazibuko had left again and he doesn't want to be part of this process anymore. We are still unable to confirm his address as it was at that stage of the incident. I'm also informed that Mr Richard Mazibuko or his family owned a number of houses in the area, not only one house, a number of houses. I would suggest if I may, with respect, suggest that I don't put any further questions to this witness and if I'm in the position to get more confirmed information, even a sworn statement to this effect, I would immediately inform you what the position is and whether or not it is still viable or necessary to put any further questions to this witness from my side, representing the specific victim. Unfortunately that does not take us any further, Mr Chairman, but I would suggest that is probably the only way forward with this matter. In the event of tracing Mr Mazibuko, we would definitely inform you. At this moment like I said, it's unfortunate I'm informed that he left and I was also informed that apparently some of the family members will also be present here during the hearing but we haven't been able to trace any of them so far. The specific address, Mr Chairman, of Mr, or one of these houses could not be confirmed in this time period. That is the suggestion I make, Mr Chairman. Thank you, Sir. CHAIRPERSON Yes, well that is not a very satisfactory situation. What is happening with this meeting that was envisaged for lunchtime, between Mr Richard Mazibuko and whichever of the applicants? MR COKA I'm sorry Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, I'm informed that Mr Mazibuko has abandoned that suggestion, he is not interested in that anymore and apparently his feedback via the people who are assisting me is that that issue of reconciliation or meeting the applicants, will be dealt with by the senior members of his family, but he personally is not interested in that anymore. He doesn't want to meet the applicants and he unfortunately just left, Mr Chairman. I know it's very unsatisfactory but at this stage there is nothing we can do to assist. I can just say that we have tried our level best by facilitating this and by inviting the attorneys as well, and other members here as well but I was informed now that he is not interested in this option anymore or being directly involved in the process or even testifying as it stands. So basically, Mr Chairman, what I placed on record was only what, the information that was related to me by Mr Mazibuko. It's clear that as the information was related to me, I'm definitely not sure it relates at all to this applicant. CHAIRPERSON Mr Richard Mazibuko hasn't withdrawn the information that he has conveyed to you? ADV STEENKAMP No, Mr Chairman, I'm in the process of trying to establish that as well. Probably lunchtime, if you would allow me, Mr Chairman, probably by 1 o'clock I will know what the position is and I will inform you. If he has withdrawn that I will draw the statement. CHAIRPERSON Yes, well we will have to decide what we do with this application as well as the previous one, in the sense of whether it is necessary to put any of this information to them to respond to. ADV STEENKAMP Mr Chairman, under the circumstances I would suggest that maybe we will take an early lunch and say adjourn until half past one and start maybe, proceed with the hearing at say half past one so that I can sort this out in the meantime, so you don't have to be in a position to make a decision as yet. I think it's quite urgent that the information must be confirmed one way or the other, which means we will not be losing any time as well. CHAIRPERSON Yes, I don't want to jump from one application to the next. Up to the point when we reconvened after tea, for all intents and purposes from our perspective, the application of applicant, Mazibuko who testified before Mr Coka, was dealt with and was finalised. The roll was going to proceed as it was originally planned but then this applicant, Mr Coka, was interposed in order to address this question that had arisen. So I would like to see that this application and if necessary, the application of Mr Mazibuko, the applicant, are finalised before we proceed to anything else. So I would very much want you to take the steps to ascertain whether or not we should take any cognisance of the facts that you had placed on record, which of course we can't just ignore at this stage. So we would like to hear quite unequivocally from you exactly what the position is on that, whether that information that was placed on record stands or not because if it stands then we will have to decide how we will deal with the applications of Mr Mazibuko and Mr Coka. So I want to suggest that you do that. It's quarter to one and I was going to adjourn but I think Advocate Gcabashe wants to put something or raise something so that when you come back we have got the full picture. ADV GCABASHE No, it's simply to ask you to check how far Mgivani Street might be from Mhlongo Street because applicant Mazibuko is talking about an incident at Mhlongo Street, this applicant is talking about an incident at Mgivani Street. Just to ascertain whether these streets in close proximity or if we actually are talking about one and the same incident or not, just, we're talking about two totally different streets here. Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Yes, Ms Nhlayisi, I think you've heard the discussion, so we would appreciate your assisting in trying to clarify this situation. I think you yourself were under the impression that the incident that Mr Coka is testifying about is the one which Mr Richard Mazibuko was talking about, and it appears as if at least he one deceased, Anna, seems to be the same first name that was mentioned when Advocate Steenkamp was placing all that information on record. So perhaps you can be of some assistance to try and just clarify that. MS NHLAYISI I'll do my best. CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much. We will adjourn at this stage for lunch. We're adjourned. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION CHAIRPERSON Advocate Steenkamp, have you managed to clarify the position regarding Mr Richard Mazibuko? ADV STEENKAMP Mr Chairman, we were not able to confirm any of the information given to us, we were not able to ascertain what the position with Mr Mazibuko is. My suggestion is that the statement on the record be withdrawn as it stands. Thank you, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Yes, I think the evidence-in-chief has been concluded, have you got any questions? ADV STEENKAMP I've no further questions, thank you, Mr Chairman. NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY ADV STEENKAMP CHAIRPERSON Questions by the Panel? ADV SANDI Thank you, Chair. Mr Coka, when you went to launch this attack at House number 1248, what time of the day was this? MR COKA I don't remember the time, but it was during the night. ADV SANDI Were the lights burning at this house or was it dark? MR COKA It was dark. ADV SANDI Just for absolute clarity, the witness who testified before you, Jeremiah Velaphi Mazibuko, he was not one of your comrades when you went to attack House number 1248? MR COKA No, he wasn't, I didn't see him. ADV SANDI Now you've said this house was attacked because the people who lived there were members of the IFP, which one of them was a member of the IFP, everyone in that house was a member of the IFP? MR COKA All of them were members of Inkatha. ADV SANDI Did they take part in the attacks on ANC people? MR COKA We knew because they used to attend rallies as well as Inkatha meetings, adorned with the red T-shirts and the red bandannas associated with Inkatha members. ADV SANDI Thank you, Mr Coka. Thank you, Chair. ADV GCABASHE Mr Coka, just to go back to the people who had firearms when you arrived at House number 1248, it was Stambu, Muzi, and I wrote Steve here, who was the third person? MR COKA It's Siphiwe. ADV GCABASHE I thought I got that wrong, okay. The next area, you do say that there were a lot of you, now a lot could be six, a lot could be 15, can you give us a rough idea as to what you mean by a lot of us were there? Are you talking 30, are you talking 50? Just give us a vague idea, you don't have to be accurate. MR COKA We could have been plus minus 40, 30 to 40. ADV GCABASHE Then you later gave evidence to say that you got the information about Anna and Tuku being killed from the community, do you remember saying that? MR COKA Yes, I do. ADV GCABASHE You went on to say: "I also went there to see", do you remember saying that? MR COKA I do. ADV GCABASHE Just explain that to me. You went back that same night, you went there the next day? Just explain what you mean by that. MR COKA I went there on the following day, that is the following morning. ADV GCABASHE Now you went there and stood outside or did you go into the house and talk to people? Just explain the circumstances surrounding your going there. Did they see you, did they talk to you? Just explain that to me. MR COKA When we got there there were police already who had come to pick up the bodies of the dead people. ADV GCABASHE So you just stood outside and observed this and talked to the people in the surrounds and then went away, essentially? MR COKA Yes, that is correct, we stood and observed as they were taking away the bodies and we thereafter left. ADV GCABASHE Now Mhlongo and Mgivani Street are both in Lusaka-B in that same area? MR COKA That is correct. ADV GCABASHE Can you tell me the distance between the two, are they quite close, is the one very far from the other? I don't know, can you help me with that? MR COKA As you come through Mgivani, just as you take the curve you come across Mgivani (sic). MR FREDERICH Just for my own understanding of your evidence, number 1248 Mgivani Street would be quite close to your home, 1251 Mhlongo Street? MR COKA That is correct. ADV GCABASHE Would it in fact be about three houses away from your house, 1248? Just to give me an idea. MR COKA It could be one house. ADV GCABASHE Just explain that to me. One large plot given different numbers or different houses on one plot with numbers? Just explain that to me. It could be one place? MR COKA Do you mean from 1248 to 1251? ADV GCABASHE Yes, I do. MR COKA 1248 is the second houses divided by a corner house and then thereafter as you curve, it's 1251. It's only one house that divides the two houses, 1248 and 1251. ADV GCABASHE Now all these houses are owned by different people, your family doesn't own all these houses for instance, just as an example? MR COKA Yes, that is correct. ADV GCABASHE 1248 is the Mazibuko home, 1248 Mgivani, where the attack took place that you were involved in? MR COKA No, that is not Mazibuko's place. ADV GCABASHE I'm trying to read my notes, it's easier if I ask you. Whose home is that, 1248 Mgivani? That's where your attack took place. MR COKA I know the people, I can identify them but I do not know their surnames. The lady who stayed there was married to Mazibuko family. ADV GCABASHE But the lady who was killed, was she a tenant or was she married to the owner of that house? MR COKA That lady who died, I think it was her sister's house. ADV GCABASHE Now because you were related to the Ndlalosi's and because Anna Ndlalosi lived in that house, did your commander or Stambu come to you at all to verify that empeleni(?), your relatives are involved with the IFP, or did that discussion not take place at all? MR COKA No, we did not discuss anything of that nature, they just said to me we are going to the place. ADV GCABASHE When you went to number 1248 Mgivani Street, were you told who the specific targets were? Did they tell you: "We must make sure so and so is killed", and so and so and so and so? MR COKA We were to attack all the people who were staying there. ADV GCABASHE Even its children? MR COKA It was not specified. ADV GCABASHE You used to patrol - this is the other area that you have discussed in your evidence, during these patrols, were you involved as some of your other comrades, in confiscating firearms from gangsters or what activities were you involved in in those patrols? MR COKA When patrolling we would monitor the area from Lusaka to Slovo at Buthelezi and we would look out for the IFP members in order to shoot them. ADV GCABASHE But you had no occasion to shoot them during any one of the patrols that you were involved in? MR COKA No, because they sometimes did not show up. ADV GCABASHE And do I understand you to say that though you carried a firearm, you have never used it, is that correct? MR COKA That is correct, I had not used it because during these patrols we would share these firearms. ADV GCABASHE We have heard evidence of major incidents at Mshayazafe, at Penduka, and from my understanding of the evidence quite a lot of SDU people were involved in those incidents, you were not involved in any of those incidents at all? MR COKA No. ADV GCABASHE We have also heard of conflicts and clashes with the Internal Stability Unit on various occasions, where shots would be fired both ways, you have never been involved in any of those incidents, either directly or indirectly? MR COKA No. ADV GCABASHE We also know about people leaving their houses because they were afraid, IFP people leaving their houses in an ANC dominated area because they were afraid, and ANC people leaving the IFP dominated area because they were afraid, you were never involved in any of those activities that are just generally called, I'll call them relocation activities, no participation at all? MR COKA No, I was not involved. ADV GCABASHE Thank you very much, Mr Coka. Thank you, Chair. CHAIRPERSON Mr Coka, the incident at 1248 Mgivani Street, on what date did that happen? MR COKA I cannot recall the date, I just remember the year. CHAIRPERSON In which year did it happen? MR COKA It was in 1993. CHAIRPERSON Now the deceased, Anna Ndlalosi, was that surname a married surname? MR COKA That was her maiden surname. CHAIRPERSON And the second victim Tuku Ndlalosi, just tell us is this a male or a female firstly? MR COKA It's a female. CHAIRPERSON Was she an adult or a child or what? MR COKA It was a youth around the age of 16/17. CHAIRPERSON Now you said that the owner of the house, the lady of the house was Anna's sister. MR COKA That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Now that lady, Anna's sister, to which family was she married? MR COKA I do not quite recall the surname. CHAIRPERSON The surname is not Mazibuku, is it? MR COKA No, I have no idea. CHAIRPERSON Those occupants that you referred to, are they still living at that place, at 1248 Mgivani Street? MR COKA No, they do not stay there anymore, they have sold the house to other people. CHAIRPERSON Are you sure that it was only these two people that were killed in this particular incident? MR COKA Yes, I'm quite sure. CHAIRPERSON Was anybody injured, according to either the information or what you had observed? MR COKA No, I did not see anybody get injured. CHAIRPERSON And are you saying that - or let me just ask you first, Anna Ndlalosi and Tuku, were they living in the house? MR COKA Yes. CHAIRPERSON And are you saying that it was common knowledge that the occupants of the house were members or supporters of the IFP? MR COKA Yes, it was a well-known knowledge. CHAIRPERSON Was anybody arrested or charged in connection with this incident, according to your knowledge? MR COKA Yes. CHAIRPERSON Can you give us the details about that please? MR COKA It so happened that in 1995 we got arrested for this very same Mgivani incident. It was myself and other young men from Sarajevo in Khatlehong and this case ended up at the Alberton Court, wherein it was dropped. CHAIRPERSON So was the case withdrawn in Court against you, is that what you are saying? MR COKA That is correct. CHAIRPERSON And was it only the two of you that were arrested and taken to Court in connection with this incident? MR COKA There were three of us. CHAIRPERSON Now can we just come to this other incident which apparently happened at your parental home, at number 1251, Mhlongo. What is the name of the person that was killed there? MR COKA I do not know his name, I only know the surname to be Mazibuko. CHAIRPERSON The name Infren, does that sound familiar at all to you, Infren Mazibuko? MR COKA No, I didn't know the name, we just referred to him as Mr Mazibuko. CHAIRPERSON Was this Mr Mazibuko an IFP member or supporter? MR COKA He was a member of the IFP. CHAIRPERSON Was he to your knowledge, involved in recruiting people to join the IFP? MR COKA Yes, that is correct. CHAIRPERSON You were saying that this Mr Mazibuko, he is the son-in-law of the people at 1248 Mgivani, if I understood your evidence correctly, now is that right or what? MR COKA I don't know which Mazibuko you are referring to, are you referring to the one who stayed at my parents' home or the one who was here just now? CHAIRPERSON I was trying to give you the impression which I had, which could be totally wrong. I'll rather ask you a pointed question, the Mazibuko who stayed at your parental home, was that Mazibuko related in any way to the people who lived at 1248 Mgivani? MR COKA No, I have no knowledge. CHAIRPERSON Now in this incident where Mr Mazibuko was killed, was he the only one that died in that particular incident? MR COKA Yes. CHAIRPERSON Now can I just come back to the previous thing, who is it that is the son-in-law of people who lived there, at 1248 Mgivani? MR COKA It was Ben Mazibuko, the one who was here. CHAIRPERSON Now we were informed that the person who was here at the hearings is called Richard Mazibuko, now is he the same person as Ben? MR COKA That is correct, we used to call him Ben or Mazambane. CHAIRPERSON Now are you aware of any incident where family members of Ben Mazibuko were killed? MR COKA Would you please repeat the question? CHAIRPERSON Are you aware of any incident, and let me perhaps be more specific here, in which a brother or Ben Mazibuko and two other people, a young child, a toddler and an adult lady by the name of Anna were killed? MR COKA No, I bear no knowledge. CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Coka. Ms Nhlayisi, is there any re-examination? MS NHLAYISI No re-examination, Mr Chairperson. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MS NHLAYISI CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you, Mr Coka, you are excused. WITNESS EXCUSED