amntrans AMNESTY HEARING 1998-12-02 PALM RIDGE 7 PATRICK MPEGELELE MZIKHALI AM 7313/97 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53034&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1998/9811231210_pr_981202th.htm MS NHLAYISI The next applicant will be Patrick Mpegelele Mzikhali. His application appears on page 72, Lusaka-B bundle. It is application number AM 7313/97. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mzikhali, do you hear me? MR MZIKHALI Yes, I can hear you. CHAIRPERSON Won't you please stand and give your full names for the record? PATRICK MPEGELELE MZIKHALI (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Thank you, please sit down. Ms Nhlayisi? EXAMINATION BY MS NHLAYISI Thank you, Mr Chair. Mr Mzikhali, you were at some stage a member of the Self Defence Unit in Lusaka-B, Thokoza, is that correct? MR MZIKHALI That is correct. MS NHLAYISI When did you join the SDUs? MR MZIKHALI In 1993. MS NHLAYISI Who was your commander at that stage? MR MZIKHALI It was Makasonke. MS NHLAYISI So you are appearing here today as an applicant and you are applying for amnesty for activities in which you were involved as a member of the Self Defence Unit, is that correct? MR MZIKHALI That is correct. MS NHLAYISI Do you have any specific incidents that you would wish to mention today, wherein you were involved and wherein violence involved against other people or where property was destroyed? MR MZIKHALI Yes, that is correct. MS NHLAYISI Would you mention those incidents? MR MZIKHALI It so happened one day in 1993 at Mbele Street, we saw a man who was an IFP member. I am saying he was an IFP member because he was harassing people in the township. I was walking past that street and I came across people beating him up and assaulting him and I joined in. MS NHLAYISI This incident that you are mentioning at Mbele Street, is it the same incident that was mentioned yesterday by the applicant, Wilfred Thabo Miya, where a person was stoned and later members of the ISU came and people fled? Is it the same incident or is it a different incident at all? MR MZIKHALI That's the same incident. MS NHLAYISI What was your actual involvement in this incident, did you participate in pelting this man with stones? MR MZIKHALI Yes, I did partake of pelting him with stones. MS NHLAYISI There is evidence before this forum that apparently that person died at a later stage, apparently he was later necklaced and he died, do you know anything about his death or his subsequent necklacing and his death? MR MZIKHALI I have no knowledge about the necklacing part of it. When I came he was being pelted with stones and I joined in. We fled when the police arrived. MS NHLAYISI When you left the scene, was this person still alive? MR MZIKHALI I have no idea. MS NHLAYISI What was your observation, was he lying down, was he still fighting? What was happening at the time just before you left? MR MZIKHALI This man was not fighting, he was already lying down and when we came back after the police had left, he was now burning. MS NHLAYISI So you're saying he was lying down, you won't be in a position to tell whether he was already dead when you left, when the police came and you fled? MR MZIKHALI That is correct. MS NHLAYISI You said you did come at a later stage and you found him burning, where were the police at that stage? MR MZIKHALI There were no police when we came back. MS NHLAYISI Is there any other incident that you wish to mention, except this one at Mbele? MR MZIKHALI Yes, that is correct. MS NHLAYISI Which other incident were you involved in? People have mentioned several incidents like an incident at Mshayazafe, an incident which involved a person from Inkantla, were you present in all these incident or some of them? Just mention which ones you took part in. MR MZIKHALI I was involved in this incident that involved the person from Inkantla. He had come from the Bhiyafuti hostel. One other incident involves the one person who had come from Inkantla. He was coming from Madala hostel, headed for Kweseni. MS NHLAYISI What was your involvement with this incident? What was your involvement with this particular incident, with this person who came, who said he came from Inkantla? How did you participate? MR MZIKHALI He was coming from Tshabalala Street. We were standing at Mgivani Street corner and he approached us and told us he was from the hostel, he is looking for Kweseni. We offered to show him. When we arrived at Everest some people came from Radebe whose identities we did not know, they hit him with a knopkierrie and he fell down and we started pelting him with stones. MS NHLAYISI Why did you pelt him with stones, what was wrong with this person? MR MZIKHALI We found a membership card of the IFP in his possession. MS NHLAYISI So when you got this membership card, you concluded that he was an IFP member and you considered him to be an enemy? MR MZIKHALI That is correct. MS NHLAYISI When Thabo Miya testified about this incident yesterday, he mentioned that he was involved to a certain extent but when this person was attacked and stoned and subsequently killed, he was not there, were you with Thabo Miya on that day? MR MZIKHALI Yes, that is correct. MS NHLAYISI But you were involved in stoning him, is that correct? MR MZIKHALI That is correct. MS NHLAYISI There's evidence that he was subsequently killed, did you take part in killing him? MR MZIKHALI As I have already indicated, yes we did pelt him with stones. There was a car parked just nearby and we requested petrol and we poured it over his body and we set him alight. MS NHLAYISI Who requested petrol and who poured petrol over him, do you know? MR MZIKHALI These are the people from Radebe section, and as they were requesting the petrol I went for a container to syphon the petrol from the vehicle. MS NHLAYISI So you were involved up to the stage where he was petrol was poured over him, is that correct? MR MZIKHALI That is correct. MS NHLAYISI Is there anything else that you wish to add regarding this particular incident, something that you have not mentioned? MR MZIKHALI No, I cannot remember anything else. MS NHLAYISI As a member of the Self Defence Unit, were you involved in other activities, like patrolling the streets and so forth? MR MZIKHALI Yes, I was involved occasionally. MS NHLAYISI Did you - in any of those incidents, were you in possession of an unlicensed firearm? MR MZIKHALI No. MS NHLAYISI You've never used a firearm as a member of the Self Defence Unit? MR MZIKHALI No. MS NHLAYISI What other activities did you take part in except patrolling the streets and these two specific incidents that you have no mentioned? MR MZIKHALI We also made sure that we did not have any shortage of any supplies at our bases. MS NHLAYISI Were you amongst those who were responsible for supplying food and other things at those bases where your comrades were staying? MR MZIKHALI Yes, that is correct. MS NHLAYISI At all times when you were a member of the SDU, you aligned yourself with whatever was done by your fellow comrades? MR MZIKHALI No. MS NHLAYISI Did you understand the question? When you were a member of the SDUs and your comrades were launching attacks or were defending your community, were you in agreement with what they were doing? MR MZIKHALI Yes, that is correct. MS NHLAYISI So your application today is for the incident of that person who was killed at Mbele Street, the incident that involved this other person whose name you do not know, who came from Inkantla, and whatever other activities that you were directly or indirectly involved in as a member of the Self Defence Unit, is that correct? MR MZIKHALI Would you please repeat? MS NHLAYISI You are applying to be granted amnesty for your involvement in stoning the person at Mbele Street, because that person subsequently died and the second incident that involves this man who came from Inkantla, and whatever other activities wherein you were directly or indirectly involved as a member of the Self Defence Unit? MR MZIKHALI That is correct. ADV SANDI Sorry, Ms Nhlayisi, surely there will have to be some form of positive conduct on his part? Merely to agree with what the SDUs were doing cannot constitute an offence, can it? MS NHLAYISI I agree with you but in other instances you'd find a person commits by omission, maybe by knowing that something is going to be committed and he omits to take positive steps maybe to rectify that. It's ...(intervention) ADV SANDI But he has not given any evidence in that direction, has he? MS NHLAYISI I may lead him regarding that but I would submit that maybe it's covered in the sense that when he said he knew the activities of his fellow comrades and he knew what they were doing and what they were involved in, and he was in full agreement with what was happening and that indirectly involves him. I don't know whether you wish me to lead evidence regarding that point. CHAIRPERSON Yes, I think do that. You should endeavour to place whatever is available in terms of evidence before us because this is obviously an important point. It will be argued later on but it's important to at least lay the evidential foundation for that. So you know, this question of mere membership of the SDU under the circumstances there and so on, is of course important. So I think you don't need to argue it now, perhaps this is just an indication as to one of the issues that you will have to address, and your colleagues, when we conclude the testimony and we deal with argument, but I think lead as much as you can. Perhaps that goes for all the other applicants. We obviously you know, need to get as much on the record as is available, which can only assist us eventually in deciding all these applications. MS NHLAYISI As the Chair pleases. Mr Mzikhali, the comrades in your area that have come before you have testified about several incidents wherein they were involved, is there any incident that they've mentioned wherein you were involved, maybe in planning such an incident or when discussions were held regarding any of the incidents that were mentioned by your comrades who came before you in this forum? MR MZIKHALI No. MS NHLAYISI So in all these other activities that you have not mentioned here, you were not involved in the planning thereof, you were not aware that they were going to be carried out, is that what you are saying? MR MZIKHALI Yes, that is what I'm saying. MS NHLAYISI Is there any other incident that is not mentioned as yet, wherein you were involved in planning or assisting whoever was going to launch an attack or involved in any other way that you can remember? MR MZIKHALI Yes, we used to have some occasion where we would come together and discuss what we should do and we would go ahead and do as agreed. MS NHLAYISI Do you have any such incident in mind that you'd like to mention, where you were part of the planning but you were not part of carrying out that particular activity? MR MZIKHALI Like for example the instance where we had to go to Penduka. They indicated to us that we so small and therefore we were not fit to go ...(intervention) MS NHLAYISI But you were involved in the discussion as to when they will go to Penduka and how they will launch an attack or defence, such things? You knew about them and you participated in such discussions? MR MZIKHALI That is correct. MS NHLAYISI At this stage, Mr Chair, I have nothing further. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS NHLAYISI CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Ms Nhlayisi. Questions, Advocate Steenkamp? ADV STEENKAMP No questions, thank you, Sir. NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY ADV STEENKAMP CHAIRPERSON The Panel? ADV SANDI Thank you, Chair. Mr Mzikhali, this incident where a man from Inkantla was attacked, what time was this? MR MZIKHALI It happened in 1993. ADV SANDI Was it at night, in the morning, in the afternoon, what time? MR MZIKHALI It was round about three in the afternoon. ADV SANDI Did you also search that person? MR MZIKHALI No, it's only the people from Radebe who searched him. ADV SANDI Thank you. Thank you, Mr Chair. ADV GCABASHE Thank you, Chair. Mr Mzikhali, I'm just trying to get the incidents clear in my own head, the Mbele Street incident, that's where that man from the hostel had come back to the township to get his belongings from his shack, that is the incident, am I right? MR MZIKHALI Would you please repeat? ADV GCABASHE The Mbele Street incident, that was the IFP member who lived in the hostel but had a shack in Lusaka-B, and when he had come to collect his things from his shack he was stoned, am I right? That is the incident you are calling the Mbele Street incident? MR MZIKHALI No. ADV GCABASHE Now that's the incident that Thabo Miya calls the Mbele Street incident, and I couldn't quite distinguish, that incident from the Inkantla man incident. Now I realise that they are actually two separate incidents, please help me, go through the facts of the Mbele incident for me first, as you know them. Who was that man? MR MZIKHALI I didn't know his name, I just knew him to be called Mabotris. ADV GCABASHE Yes, and where was he from and where was he going to, do you know at all? MR MZIKHALI Are you referring to the Inkantla man? ADV GCABASHE No, let's stay with the Mbele Street man. I realise your evidence is that you came across a group of people who were stoning this man and I'm just trying to find out if you know more than that, about this particular man. We have not yet started with the Inkantla person. MR MZIKHALI No, there's nothing I know to that effect. ADV GCABASHE So it's quite possible that that Mbele Street man is in fact the same one Thabo Miya gave evidence about, it's possible? MR MZIKHALI Yes, that's the one. ADV GCABASHE Are you certain that that is the one or are you simply saying it is possible that that is the one? MR MZIKHALI No, this is no the one from Inkantla. ADV GCABASHE Mr Mzikhali, forget Inkantla, I'm coming to Inkantla just now. Let's just stay with Mbele, the first one, Mbele Street. Let's just finish that one off. It's really just to try and remember. If you don't remember, you don't remember. I'm just trying to find out what you do remember about that particular man, that's all. MR MZIKHALI The questions are quite confusing because we have this Inkantla man and the Mbele Street incident, would you please explain to me clearly. I want to understand you very well. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, Mr Mzikhali, in Mbele Street they killed Mabotris, is that right? MR MZIKHALI That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Now Advocate Gcabashe is talking about the incident involving Mabotris, so just answer her questions about that incident first, leave the other one, just talk about Mabotris. ADV GCABASHE Who was he, where was he coming from, where was he going to? MR MZIKHALI He was a person, a tenant at Mbele Street and we so happened one day to see him coming from Penduka. He found us standing at a corner at Mgivani and he asked us what we were doing there and we just told him we're just standing there. He ordered us to go home and not get ourselves involved in things that would be difficult to handle. ADV GCABASHE And then, what happened after that? MR MZIKHALI We left and went home. ADV GCABASHE Continue. MR MZIKHALI It so happened one day that he was discussed and it was indicated that the people have knowledge that he was an IFP member because he was seen attending these meetings. ADV GCABASHE Yes, and so, what did you then do? MR MZIKHALI On that very same day when we saw him being pelted with stones, that is when we joined in, after he was discussed. ADV GCABASHE And Thabo Miya was part of that group that was pelting him with stones? MR MZIKHALI Thabo Miya was in my company, as well as Cyril Khumalo. That is when we assisted the people who were assaulting him. ADV GCABASHE Thank you. Now let's talk about the Inkantla man. I just want you to clarify those facts for me as well. You were there when the Inkantla man asked for directions to Kweseni, to the Kweseni industry? MR MZIKHALI Yes, I was present. ADV GCABASHE And you were part of the group that said: "We'll show you where it is"? MR MZIKHALI That is correct. ADV GCABASHE But in fact the group had no intention of showing him where Kweseni industry was, is that correct or incorrect? MR MZIKHALI Yes, that is correct. ADV GCABASHE Now at what stage did you see his IFP card? MR MZIKHALI We saw the card after he was assaulted by the boys or the men from Radebe. ADV GCABASHE What made you link him with the IFP before you saw that card, what facts or circumstances? MR MZIKHALI Would you please repeat the question? ADV GCABASHE Now the question is, what facts or what circumstances made you link that man with the IFP before you saw that card? MR MZIKHALI We asked him where he was going and we asked where his IFP card is and after showing it we would kill him because he was a member of the IFP. ADV GCABASHE Are you saying that the mere fact that he asked where the Kweseni industries were and that he was a stranger in the place, made you suspect that he was an IFP man? MR MZIKHALI Yes, that is correct. CHAIRPERSON Can I just try and complete this one whilst Advocate Gcabashe is looking at the rest of the notes. Did this man have a letter with him? MR MZIKHALI Yes, he had a letter with him but we didn't know its contents because we didn't have a look at it. CHAIRPERSON What did he tell you about the letter? MR MZIKHALI I didn't notice. I really didn't concern myself with that, there was a lot of noise. CHAIRPERSON Now what did you understand that letter to be all about? MR MZIKHALI I would not say because I didn't even know it existed. CHAIRPERSON Did you only hear about his letter after the incident? MR MZIKHALI Yes, that is correct. CHAIRPERSON Now from what you understood from the subsequent discussions, was that letter also a cause for a suspicion that this person was linked to the IFP? MR MZIKHALI I wouldn't say that because I didn't know the contents of the letter. CHAIRPERSON All right, thank you. Advocate Gcabashe? ADV GCABASHE Thank you, Chair. Now it is only when you came across the people from Radebe section that he was physically assaulted, is that correct? MR MZIKHALI That is correct. ADV GCABASHE Who explained to the people from Radebe section about this man and who he was or who you thought he was? MR MZIKHALI The boys or the man from Radebe wanted to know his identity and we told him that this man was going to Kweseni and this man from Radebe started assaulting him with a knopkierrie and they searched him and located an IFP card in his pocket and started pelting him with stones. ADV GCABASHE Was there any particular person who was in command, if you could call it that, at the time, who told you what has to be done about this man? MR MZIKHALI No, it is something that just happened, we were walking him towards his destination. ADV GCABASHE So the decision to pour petrol on him was again just something that happened because a motor vehicle happened to be close by? MR MZIKHALI That is correct. ADV GCABASHE Thank you. Thank you, Chair. ADV SANDI Just to clarify one last point here. Mr Mzikhali, am I correct to think that from what you have said, you would still have attacked this person even if you had not found this IFP card in his possession, and the letter? MR MZIKHALI That is correct because we had already concluded that he was an IFP member. He was residing at an area where we did not go to, where we could not go to. ADV SANDI And when your group went to the vehicle and took out some petrol which you poured over his body, you were acting without an order from a commander, not so? MR MZIKHALI That is correct, because the man from Radebe just took a decision and we followed suite. ADV SANDI Yes, but my understanding is that when you did that you were acting in accordance with a sentiment or spirit amongst yourselves, that IFP people should be attacked, am I correct? MR MZIKHALI That is correct. ADV SANDI Thank you, Mr Mzikhali. Thank you, Chair. CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you. Re-examination, Ms Nhlayisi? RE-EXAMINATION BY MS NHLAYISI Thank you, Mr Chair, one question. Let's go back to the incident at Mbele, you said that this person whom you know by the name of Mabotris, at some stage found you standing at the corner of Mgivani Street and he told you to go home and not to get involved in things that doesn't involve you, and at a later stage there was a discussion wherein it was decided that he must be dealt with. What I want to know from you is, were you part of the group that held this discussion that Mabotris must be dealt with? MR MZIKHALI Yes, because it was a meeting. MS NHLAYISI So you knew before this day when you found him being stoned, that a resolution had been taken that he must be dealt with? MR MZIKHALI That is correct. MS NHLAYISI What exactly was he going to be dealt with, what was decided in that meeting? MR MZIKHALI We always had to monitor him, like harassing the community. MS NHLAYISI How were you going to deal with him? MR MZIKHALI We just waited for him to say bad things like we should join the IFP. MS NHLAYISI Then is he does that, what were you going to do to him? MR MZIKHALI That's when we would confirm our suspicions that he a strong member of the IFP. MS NHLAYISI Again the same question, after you have confirmed by his actions that he is a member of the IFP, what did you intend to do to him, according to the discussion that was held? MR MZIKHALI He had to be killed. MS NHLAYISI So you were not surprised the day you found people attacking him at Mbele Street? MR MZIKHALI Yes, that is correct. MS NHLAYISI Thank you, Mr Chair, I have nothing further. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS NHLAYISI ADV SANDI Mr Mzikhali, do you recall any other specific meetings where you participated before discussions, before attacks were carried out? MR MZIKHALI Would you please repeat the question? ADV SANDI Are there any other discussions, are you able to remember if there are any specific discussions which took place where you participated, before any attack was carried out? MR MZIKHALI No. ADV SANDI Thank you. CHAIRPERSON When you joined in the attack on Mabotris, were you executing the decision that was taken at that meeting, that he should be killed? MR MZIKHALI That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Yes, Mr Mzikhali, thank you, you are excused. WITNESS EXCUSED MS NHLAYISI Mr Chair, the next applicant will be on the Lusaka-A bundle, that is Lerato Collin Nteo, page 172. CHAIRPERSON Now Ms Nhlyaisi, how long is that evidence likely to take? I was going to adjourn these proceedings before three thirty this afternoon, it's now ten past three, now how long do you think it will take. MS NHLAYISI I suppose it will take more than 20 minutes. CHAIRPERSON Just give me the - what's it, page 172? Will he be referring to a number of incidents? MS NHLAYISI That's correct, it's about four specific incidents wherein he is directly involved. CHAIRPERSON Ms Nhlayisi, I'm sorry, we are not going to be able to hear and deal with this matter fully and justify it in the time at our disposal. If that number of incidents then I'm not going to proceed to hear his application today. We find it quite helpful if these incidents are dealt with as fully as possible because there are a number of incidents that have been referred to but many of them are common to these applicants, although sometimes they might refer to it by different names and so on. So that is why it is necessary for us when we deal with these incidents, just to be 100% sure that we are not duplicating or misunderstanding what it's all about and I would really not want to do that. It might mean that we can lead his evidence-in-chief and then you know, deal with the rest of his testimony later on. I'd like to finish off these in one session. So at this state I'm going to adjourn the proceedings, and if it is convenient we will then listen to the application tomorrow morning. We will adjourn until 9 o'clock or as soon after that as we can. We have had a bit of difficulty, hopefully the weather will improve in this part of the world, but the inclement weather has played havoc with our plans but we will endeavour to start at 9 o'clock tomorrow. We will adjourn until 9 o'clock tomorrow morning. MS NHLAYISI Before - because of other commitments I won't be hear tomorrow and I would request my colleague, Mr Sibeko, to proceed with this particular applicant and then proceed with his roll. CHAIRPERSON Okay, was this going to be the last one that you would have done today? MS NHLAYISI Yes. CHAIRPERSON Alright, so long as Mr Sibeko is happy. ADV STEENKAMP Mr Chairman, there is just a request from my side. If I may ask the Chairman to ask the Correctional Services to bring those people who are in prison in time. They only arrived here this morning after ten, ten twenty and arrangements were made for them to be here basically at eight thirty for my colleagues to do the consultation. It caused us basically to lose two hours. They are from the Groenpunt Prison, which is not so far. If I may ask. There is a question that they have actually asked me to ask you to make such a ruling, that they can indicate to the head of the prison that they must be here early. If that is possible, Mr Chairman, thank you. CHAIRPERSON So would it assist is they are here at eight thirty? ADV STEENKAMP Yes, it would. CHAIRPERSON Very well. For the purposes of the officials of Correctional Services, we have a number of people who are in custody who are applicants in these proceedings. We will come to their applications, I should imagine some time tomorrow, but in order for us to run the proceedings without any interruption and in order to enable the legal representatives to prepare properly for the applications of those people in custody, it is necessary to have them here at this venue at eight thirty tomorrow morning. I according call upon the Correctional Services representatives here to ensure that all those people in custody are brought to the hall here tomorrow morning at eight thirty. I'm informed that apparently they were a bit late this morning, perhaps it's understandable in a way, but will you please ensure tomorrow that they are here by eight thirty. The lawyers must still speak to them and it does disrupt the proceedings if they are not able or not allowed sufficient time to do that. So please will you attend to that? We will then adjourn. ADV STEENKAMP Thank you, Mr Chairman. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS