amntrans AMNESTY HEARING 1998-12-03 PALM RIDGE 8 THOZAMILE ERIC MHLAULI AM 7344/97 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53037&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1998/9811231210_pr_981203th.htm ON RESUMPTION CHAIRPERSON Mr Sibeko, which is the next application? MR SIBEKO CHAIRPERSON Mr Mhlauli, can you hear me? MR MHLAULI Yes. THOZAMILE ERIC MHLAULI (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR SIBEKO Mr Mhlauli, you are also an applicant applying for amnesty, is that correct? MR MHLAULI (Answer not interpreted). MR SIBEKO Do you confirm that you were a member of the Self Defence Unit, Lusaka A, Thokoza, in about 1993? MR MHLAULI Yes, that is correct. MR SIBEKO Do you further confirm that at the time your commander was Mr Moosa Msimango? MR MHLAULI Yes, that is correct. MR SIBEKO The last applicant, Mr Ngubane, testified to the effect that you were part of their comrades who were in the company of Mr Khumalo, do you confirm that, sir? MR MHLAULI Yes, that is correct. MR SIBEKO He further testified that the reason for your collaboration with Mr Khumalo was that you were looking for the common, I would say enemy, by the name of Mugabe, is that correct? MR MHLAULI (Answer not interpreted). MR SIBEKO Is there any other incident that Mr Ngubane might have left out before 1993, that is between 1990 and 1993, that you and Mr Ngubane were together? MR MHLAULI It is when Mr Khumalo's taxi was shot at. MR SIBEKO Where did that incident happened and why? MR MHLAULI We regarded Khumalo as our enemy, that is why we attacked his car. CHAIRPERSON Yes, you were, I think you were saying that, were you giving the place where this happened? Just repeat that? MR MHLAULI Yes, I was also there. INTERPRETER I think the applicant is listening to channel 2 instead of channel 3, so it's very difficult to communicate with him. DISCUSSION REGARDING CHANNELS CHAIRPERSON I believe that that little bit of a difficulty with the channels has been sorted out now. Would you just repeat where did this incident concerning Mr Khumalo's taxi that was shot at, where did that happen? MR MHLAULI It was corner of Khumalo Street, Khumalo and Daki Street. MR SIBEKO Where is that? What section is that? MR MHLAULI It's a section between Slovo and Lusaka A. MR SIBEKO All right, so you want to tell us about this incident where the taxi was shot at. Just proceed and tell us about that? MR MHLAULI As we regarded Khumalo as our enemy, we decided to harass him, as he was also harassing the community. We met, it was myself and Mr Ngubane, Mr Mampuro and the others, I can't remember their names. We arranged to attack his taxi. We sent a girl to try and stop his car and we instructed the girl to pretend as if she was going to town. MR SIBEKO Did you send the girl to stop the taxi? MR MHLAULI Yes, that is correct. MR SIBEKO Did she do that, did she stop the taxi, and what happened then? MR MHLAULI Yes, she stopped the taxi. We went closer to him. It looked like the driver noticed something. We started shooting and the driver fled. MR SIBEKO What type of arms were you carrying? MR MHLAULI It was one AK47 rifle and some pistols. MR SIBEKO What arm did you have in your possession? MR MHLAULI I was armed with a pistol. MR SIBEKO Now I understood you to be saying that the reason was that you have decided to - or you decided to attack Mr Khumalo through whatever means, so that you could, he could suffer the same way as he was doing to the community. What was your specific intention now about his kombi? INTERPRETER Will the speaker please repeat the question, the last part of the question? MR SIBEKO Your specific intention, did you want to destroy the kombi, burn it, or what did you want to do with the kombi, had you succeeded to shoot it down? MR MHLAULI We wanted to attack the driver, his boy, Madiefdief. MR SIBEKO His son, Madiefdief, was he the driver of that kombi? MR MHLAULI Yes, that is correct. What was his son's other name, we've got a different name somewhere here? MR MHLAULI If I'm not mistaken, I think it was Mzwaki. MR SIBEKO So Mzwaki managed to escape with the kombi, is that what you say? MR MHLAULI Yes, that is correct. MR SIBEKO Did any of your bullets shoot the kombi? MR MHLAULI I won't be able to say, because it was at a distance at the time, I think we did hit the kombi. MR SIBEKO You are applying for amnesty for this incident also, is that correct? MR MHLAULI Yes, that is correct. MR SIBEKO Any other incident? MR MHLAULI Yes. The bombing of Mr Khumalo's house. It was in 1991. MR SIBEKO Is it the same attack that Mr Ngubane referred to, and if so, do you have a specific role that you also played personally? MR MHLAULI Yes, I did play a role there. This is what - I'm referring to the incident that Mr Ngubane was talking about. I was there in that attack, the first attack and the second one, the second one of the bombing of the house. MR SIBEKO Were you carrying an AK on that particular day? MR MHLAULI Yes, that is correct. Which particular day, Mr Sibeko? MR SIBEKO The first incident and the second incident, the first attack and the second attack, thank you. MR MHLAULI Yes, in both attacks I was armed with an AK47 rifle. We planned the attack and Comrade Ngubane was also present during the first attack. After an incident whereby a comrade's house was burnt down, who was staying in the same street with Khumalo, we just decided to attack him to show that we can fight for ourselves. It happened that we went to the place with the other comrades who were coming from the other sections like Mr Mtembu who organised the other comrades from Mavumela Section in Katlehong. We went to the place, the time was round about 10:00 in the evening. We left the other comrades behind in the sections, so that they could patrol the sections, and we left with two cars, a Cressida and a BMW. We left the car next to the church. We went up, walking. We were disturbed by the police when we arrived there. It looked like the police were patrolling in the street, Dagani Street, next to Khumalo's place. We had to delay a little bit and we started our mission round about 12:00 midnight. We delayed because the police were going to disturb us. At some stage the police came, I think they were changing the shifts of Khumalo's bodyguards, and they delivered some of them and they took the other people who were working there. After they had left, we started throwing the hand grenades that never exploded. When the securities were still looking, watching the situation next to the garage outside the house, they went to inspect to what was happening there on the lawn, we started firing. MR SIBEKO So you acknowledge that it is possible that you might have shot at some of those security personnel, to an extent that some might have died as a result, or remained injured? MR MHLAULI Yes, that is correct. We went back to the sectoin after finishing the job and the comrades from Katlehong went back to Katlehong. After some time, after some weeks, after realising that our mission was not accomplished, we initiated a second attack. We organised a van that we could use as transport to go back there to the place. Even there, Comrade Ngubane was present, Mzikayise Tshabalala, I cannot remember the other comrades' names. They were comrades from other sections like Vosloorus and Comrade Mampuro was also present. MR SIBEKO Even on that particular day, you were still carrying that AK47 assault rifle, is that correct? MR MHLAULI Yes, that is correct. An order was issued that people would fire and thereafter a hand grenade would be thrown in order to distract anything there. We had planned that there would be a group, a covering group, and after withdrawal, the covering group would do their job. MR SIBEKO Now, in this second attempt, are you in a position to state whether there were people who were in the house at the time who could have been affected as a result of your firing and further as a result of the grenade that was thrown into the yard? MR MHLAULI (Reply not interpreted). MR SIBEKO So it's also possible that, as a result of your shooting, you might have killed or injured somebody on that particular evening? MR MHLAULI Yes, I agree with that. MR SIBEKO Any further incident? CHAIRPERSON Just a minute, just a minute. What did actually happen on that second occasion? Was there a grenade thrown then, or what happened? MR MHLAULI We fired, and after that a grenade was thrown, and we fired again and we withdrew. We withdrew from the target point. CHAIRPERSON Did the grenade explode, or what happened? MR MHLAULI Yes, it did explode. CHAIRPERSON Was anybody injured or killed in this incident, to your knowledge, or from subsequent reports? MR MHLAULI I did not hear anything about that, it's only the first incident when I heard that the bomb did not explode, and even in the local newspapers that was reported, where Mr Khumalo was shown sitting on the sandbags carrying the grenade. CHAIRPERSON Was there any damage caused to the property, to the house? MR MHLAULI Yes. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Tell us whether there are any other incidents. MR MHLAULI Yes, there are other incidents. Comrade Ngubane was not present, I was with Comrade ...(indistinct), Philemon Mtembu, that was at Mgaki Street in 1991, where the car of an IFP member was shot at and burnt down. MR SIBEKO Do you by any chance know the name of that IFP member? MR MHLAULI He was known as Vilakazi. MR SIBEKO How did this incident occur? MR MHLAULI As we were barricading the streets, because the situation was tense in the townships, as we were still doing that, Mr Vilakazi came driving along in his car, he insulted us, he told us that his brothers are dying, he yelled at us, he sweared at us, and he was telling us that we are barricading the streets and their brothers are dying, and I told Philemon Mtembu that we've got to deal with this person, but he refused, he said we mustn't be in a hurry, but there were people who were around at the time while we were barricading there in the streets. We left him like that, he went on with his car. As he was trying to take a curve running away from a big stone that was on the street, his right hand, we saw his right hand with a gun. I asked Dangi if he could see that and he went on on his way and he went to Kana Mboya and Mgaki Streets, he stopped his car somewhere there. Dangi said we must go straight to him, but he did not get into his house, he made a U turn and he went back. That was on a Friday. On a Sunday morning, I heard a knock as I was sitting in the house early in the morning, I was having tea with my family, I heard a knock at the door. When I opened, it was Dangi and I asked him what was wrong. He said to me that person is there now and it looks like he is leaving the place, he looked like a person who is relocating to somewhere else. I left the house without telling anyone, I rushed to his place to see what was happening, and when I was standing at the corner, when I looked further down, I saw his car with his property. There was a person who was wearing a coat who looked like a person who was inspecting the place and the others were taking his belongings into the car. Dangi sent another gentleman who was working with us, whose name was Nxolisi Sijwele, he sent him to fetch the AK47. He left, but he took time before he could come back. I panicked, because I was waiting for them, I was worried that these people would leave before we could deal with them. Fortunately, Nxolisi came with an AK47. We were walking on the right-hand side, because his car was standing on the left-hand side. We went close to the car. Nxolisi was still having a gun in his hand, the firearm in his hand. When Nxolisi was drawing his gun, this gentleman who was standing next to the car said, "Here are the people killing us", then he ran straight into the yard. Nxolisi shot only once at this gentleman, but he did not succeed. I took the AK47 from Nxolisi. We went straight into the hut, into the yard, and the others jumped the fence, we went into the shacks as we were looking for the others. One of them was in the toilet. I asked him if he was with these other people, he said no, he doesn't know anything. They asked him to come and assist. As we were surveying the place, we saw a kombi coming from the Katlehong direction, they stopped the kombi as we were still watching there, it looked like they asked this gentleman to assist them in taking out Mr Khumalo's belongings in the house. We saw him getting into the yard. When I saw him in the toilet, he told me that he was only asked to assist there and I left the gentleman alone, but I told him that he must just leave. He left the place in his car. Only the car with Mr Khumalo's - Mr Vilakazi's car - only the car that was left with Mr Vilakazi's belongings. Dangi and Nxolisi set the car alight, they asked for a match from someone who was passing by, and they set the house alight. MR SIBEKO What did they set alight, the house or the car? MR MHLAULI It was a car, they set the car alight. MR SIBEKO Is it Vilakazi's car with his belongings loaded in? MR MHLAULI Yes, that is correct. MR SIBEKO What had happened to him at that stage? MR MHLAULI We did not find him, he ran away, we did not find him in his yard. MR SIBEKO Did you fire any shots in this incident? MR MHLAULI I did not fire any shot, because the person we were looking for had already left. MR SIBEKO Did any of the others with you fire shots? MR MHLAULI Yes, Nxolisi was the one to fire the first shots, but it looks like he did not him, he did not hit anyone. The person who was remaining behind was the man who was wearing the black coat and he looked as if he was watching the vehicle. MR SIBEKO Who was Nxolisi firing at, was it Vilakazi he was firing at? MR MHLAULI He was shooting at the man who was wearing a black coat, because Vilakazi was inside his homestead. MR SIBEKO So that man with the black coat, he ran away, Vilakazi also ran away, and you found somebody hiding on the premises who seemed to have been just a helper, who seemed to have been innocent, is that the position? MR MHLAULI We found this man in the toilet, it looks like he ran and hid himself in the toilet, we found him in the toilet. Mr Vilakazi was a tenant in that homestead. MR SIBEKO The one in the toilet you concluded was innocent, you left him off? MR MHLAULI That is correct. MR SIBEKO All right, so Nxolisi is the only one that fired shots there. What else ...(intervention). MR MHLAULI Yes. MR SIBEKO What else happened there? MR MHLAULI After the car had been set alight, we then withdrew from the scene. MR SIBEKO So as far as you're concnered, in that incident nobody was killed or injured? MR MHLAULI That is correct. MR SIBEKO Is there any other incident? MR MHLAULI Yes, there is another incident. That refers to an incident where people were shot at at Mgagi Street during a march. Members of the community were injured and if I remember very well, this march was organised by the Civic Association. They were on their way to hand over, or hand a memorandum to the Alberton Town Council, and the route that the march had to take was Khumalo Street, that is the Khumalo near the hostel. At the time the violence had not reached the highest of levels. I think our road was the meeting point of the Town Council members where this memorandum had to be handed in, and during this march, we walked past Mjazafis gate, Mjazafis Hostel gate, and we heard gunshots, gunshots that were coming from the hostel windows, and we heard another gunshot or gunshots from behind us, and because people were frightened, they fled in to the nearby houses, and we ultimately saw the people who were opening fire. I drew my firearm and shot towards the direction from which the guns were fired. I fired and Dangi fired shots towards the windows, and as these are the people who were fleeing towards the neighbouring houses, there seemed to appear people from the houses who joined in the attack, stabbing our people. We tried to flee, myself and Dangi, and when we went to the next street, I think the name of the street is Madondo, we saw the Stability Unit, during which time Dangi left his firearm on the roof of a shack and they shot towards, that is the police, shot towards our direction and we tried to flee. I always kept the possession of my firearm. MR SIBEKO Now the people who stabbed the marchers, what were they using to stab them? MR MHLAULI They were using spears. MR SIBEKO So when you saw these people who were firing at you, and then when you decided to shoot back, you acknowledge that you could have hit some of them, do you understand that they might have died or remained injured, is that so? MR MHLAULI That is correct. MR SIBEKO Do you have any other thing to say? MR MHLAULI That is correct. The shooting between myself and the hostel dwellers at Katlehong at Mazibugu Hostel. This happened in 1991, I think it was 1992, I'm mistaken. We heard gunshots in the morning shortly after I had taken a bath. We then summoned someone to go and establish as to what was happening. I quickly went for my pistol, went out of the house, I used to live with my brother at Seluma Section. I went out and he asked me where I was going and I told him I was going to inspect what was happening, and I saw some women who were carrying babies behind their backs, fleeing and my brother said I should stay indoors because I would get injured and I disagreed with him, and he then joined me as well as other neighbours. We went to inspect what was happening, and the gunshots were continuing in that instant and it looks like there was an exchange of gunfire and when I looked further down, I could see the people who were shooting. These were people who were coming from the Mazibugu Hostel. That's when my brother realised that I was carrying a gun, I drew my gun and pursued these people, and there were people who were being shot at Lugule Section and they fled to Seluma and I used my pistol that used to load 18 bullets, and I drove these people back from whence they came, and it looks like there was this vehicle that was coming from the direction of the township. The driver did not seem to know what was happening and the street was barricaded, and when the driver of the vehicle tried to make a U turn, his vehicle was shot at and I was trying to assist him so that he could escape. They kidnapped him and drove his vehicle into the hostel. MR SIBEKO Now your evidence is that you kept on firing on those people whom you say were from the hostel and you could see some of them falling. Will that be taken to mean that they might have died or they were injured as a result of your shooting? MR MHLAULI That is correct. MR SIBEKO Do you know what exactly happened to the man that was taken to the hostel thereafter? MR MHLAULI No, I have no knowledge. It was quite a distance from where I was standing. I tried to save him, I tried to shoot as fast as I could, but I failed, until the people from the hostel withdrew. MR SIBEKO What happened thereafter? MR MHLAULI At that time I had run out of ammunition, I withdrew and I went to try and secure other ammunition at Seluma, thinking that these people might come back, I went to a certain policeman at Seluma. Seluma is a place that's full of police and I was given five bullets, and on taking receipt of these bullets, I went back to try and find out what was going on, and it was now quiet, that's when I again met my brother, who insisted that I go back home. That's when I went back home. MR SIBEKO You are seeking amnesty for this incident also, is that correct? MR MHLAULI That is correct. MR SIBEKO Now before we go any further, there's evidence that whilst you were still in the company of Mr Khumalo, he used to give you bullets and firearms. Will you confirm that, sir? MR MHLAULI Yes, that is correct. MR SIBEKO The pistol that you say you kept on using throughout these incidences, is it part of the arms that you received from Mr Khumalo? MR MHLAULI That is correct. MR SIBEKO Do you have any other thing, sir? MR MHLAULI Yes. This refers to the shooting of a police truck at Seluma Section. It was shot at at Seluma Section, it was at a place, an open ground between Seluma and Mazibugu Hostel. This open ground is a border line between Seluma Section and the hostel area. I was at home and people from Seluma came and they, I would say they saw me for the first time when I exchanged gunshots with the hostel people and they took interest in knowing me and we exchanged introduction, and when they heard these gunshots they came to me to say they had a problem, saying that it looks like the people want to attack again. I did not waste time, I went to the scene and indeed it was as they explained. We already had an AK47 that had just been purchased, and they wanted to know if I can make use of that AK47 and I indicated yes I can, they gave it to me and I started shooting, and I handed this small pistol to another comrade. I was not quite familiar with these people from the other area. We then assisted one another shooting back until it was quiet later, and they wanted to know if there are no other people with whom I am working, and I indicated to them that, yes I do have other comrades with whom I constantly operate. CHAIRPERSON Just a minute. We're trying to keep up with what you are saying. When did this incident happen that you're talking about now? MR MHLAULI In 1992. CHAIRPERSON And you say that you took an AK47 and you were shooting. Who were you shooting at? MR MHLAULI I was shooting towards the hostel direction from where these gunshots were fired. CHAIRPERSON Which hostel was this? MR MHLAULI That's the Mazibugu Hostel, the one that's near Seluma Section, the one that is demarcated by this open ground. CHAIRPERSON So were people firing shots from this hostel, from the Mazibugu Hostel to the Seluma Section? MR MHLAULI That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Did you see these people who were shooting like that? MR MHLAULI Yes, I did. They were inside the hostel premises. One of them was wearing a red dustcoat. CHAIRPERSON So these people didn't come out of the hostel, they were just shooting from within the premises of the hostel, and yourself, where were you stationed, positioned? MR MHLAULI We were standing next to the houses facing the hostel. CHAIRPERSON Is it yourself and these people that you came to know from the Seluma Section? MR MHLAULI Yes, that is correct. CHAIRPERSON So you were returning the fire with an AK47 that the Seluma people gave you to, and one of them, to whom you had given your pistol, was firing with you back at the hostel, would that be right? MR MHLAULI That is correct. CHAIRPERSON So you were exchanging fire like that until eventually the exchange of fire was over? MR MHLAULI That is correct. MR SIBEKO This exchange of fire, about how long did it take? MR MHLAULI I wouldn't say exactly, it may have been more or less than 20 minutes or thereabouts. MR SIBEKO I'm trying to have a picture in mind of what was happening there, would I be correct to think that you were between the hostels and the houses, the position where you were at the time you were returning fire to the hostels? MR MHLAULI We had taken cover, using the houses as our shield. MR SIBEKO Did you hit anybody, did anybody fall down? MR MHLAULI No, I didn't see anybody falling down, but we were shooting towards the hostel of course. MR SIBEKO Good, now there was this exchange of fire, about 20 minutes, things are now quiet, the shooting has stopped, what happened, how does the police truck come in the picture? MR MHLAULI It so happened that after the shooting and after the cessation of fire, I think there is one civic member at Seluma, who came to ask me if there aren't other people with whom I am working, suggesting that we confront them at the hostel, that is the people, and I indicated to him that there are numerous people such as Comrade Danko, Dangi and Comrade Mkalisi who often times operate with me, and they suggested that we go and fetch them, and I indicated to them that that should not be a problem, providing they provide me with a transport, and one of them offered that we can use his bakkie so that we drove to Thokoza to fetch these people. We arrived at Maboya, that's where I resided, and on arrival we did not find Dangi, instead we found Mkalisi, who said Dangi is at Mavumela Section, and he wanted to know if there was a problem and I said no, and I indicated to him that we wanted his assistance because something was happening at Seluma. I then indicated to Nxolisi that he should go and fetch an AK47, and we would later on go to fetch Dangi, whom we found at Schoeman Road, a road that demarcates Thokoza and Katlehong. I called him to the site and explained to him what the situation was like, and he then went back to report to the person he was standing with, briefing him about our discussion, I suppose, and he came and joined us in the bakkie and we drove away, and this civic member later on prepared some braaivleis for us so that we could get some strength, and after a while a police van was identified. There is this footpath which is usually used as shortcut and we saw this truck driving past and we nodded, and when it came back for the second time, Dangi suggested that we attack the truck and I told him to hold his fire because I was still eating. We already had our guns ready for firing and it so happened that when this truck approached, that is when we started shooting and Dangi went behind the truck, but fortunately the police managed to escape, and as we were shooting at this police truck, the police left their vehicle and fled on foot, and there came another one form Mazibugu and we continued firing. I ran shooting at the same time and covering Dangi up so that he shouldn't be shot at, and we managed to withdraw thereafter, and later on boys from Seluma came and took the truck and they took it and burnt it somewhere in another street and we had already left by then. CHAIRPERSON Was anybody killed or injured in this attack upon the police trucks? MR MHLAULI No. The police were only two in the truck. They managed a lucky escape. CHAIRPERSON Did you want to kill those two policemen in the truck? MR MHLAULI That is correct, because our motto was that the police are part and parcel of what was happening in the township because they were working for the then regime. CHAIRPERSON Were they regarded as part of the enemy? MR MHLAULI They were part of the enemy. CHAIRPERSON The second truck, police truck, police vehicle, that came, did that one leave, did it manage to drive off? MR MHLAULI No, I did not refer to a second police vehicle. MR SIBEKO Just give me a minute? Or was it that same van, the same truck that returned a second time, it first went past you and then it came back and then you attacked it? MR MHLAULI That is correct, it drove past and it came back, that's when we shot it. MR SIBEKO Yes, and then those two policemen who were in that truck, ran away, they abandoned the truck and they ran off, is that right? MR MHLAULI That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Now when was it that you were covering for Dangi, or you were shooting so that they couldn't shoot him, what incident was that? MR MHLAULI This happened when we withdrew from the scene after shooting the truck, that was after gunshots came from the Mazibugu Hostel, because when we fired at the truck, we also experienced gunshots that were coming from the hostel. I don't know whether they were thinking that they were under attack from us or by us. CHAIRPERSON So were you shooting to help Dangi so that he is not shot by those people who were firing from the hostel at you? MR MHLAULI That is correct. CHAIRPERSON So you're saying there was only one police truck and that was eventually burnt by people from Seluma? MR MHLAULI That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Thank you, you can carry on. MR SIBEKO Is there any other thing to add in this incident? MR MHLAULI No, there's nothing I would like to add, apart from another incident. MR SIBEKO So you're applying for amnesty in the whole activity, that is the carrying of the AK47, the shooting, the shooting of the police van and everything that you did? MR MHLAULI That is correct. MR SIBEKO You say you've got another incident again? MR MHLAULI That is correct. That has to do with the burning of the Mazibugu Hostel. MR SIBEKO When did that occur, which year? MR MHLAULI It happened in 1993. MR SIBEKO What happened in that incident? MR MHLAULI It so happened that the people from Seluma Section noticed that I was very active and they approached me, telling me about the plan that was under way, and it was planned that they infiltration into the hostel should be at night, and there were already people that had been appointed at the hostel to guard the hostel so that entry is not gained easily. These were the few people that were guarding the hostel and we planned that we were going to gain access into the hostel at night and set everything alight, and yes indeed, one evening we gained entrance or entry into the hostel with comrades from different sections, and we met a few people at the hostel and exchanged gunshots right at the hostel premises, and one young man was injured on our way out, he got shot, he was not carrying a firearm for that matter. MR SIBEKO In that particular incident, were you carrying the same AK47? MR MHLAULI That is correct. MR SIBEKO You say you exchanged fire with the residents of Mazibugu Hostel? MR MHLAULI That is correct. MR SIBEKO Are you in a position to tell us whether you killed them or you left them injured? MR MHLAULI Yes, there may have been people who got injured and people who died. Yes, I can say there may have been people who got injured or who died. CHAIRPERSON Which, which people? MR MHLAULI Apology, chairperson, the shooting was not as fierce as before. MR SIBEKO Your evidence is that you thereafter, in fact when you started this incident, you said it was about the burning of the hostel. Now there was this shooting, after the shooting I assume you went further to burn the hostel. At the time you burnt down the hostel, where were the few people who were the residents of the hostel at the time? MR MHLAULI It was the very same people who were exchanging gunshots with us. I was not using petrol bombs. MR SIBEKO The picture that we have here is that you went inside the hostel, you got inside the hostel, you exchanged fire, now we've got a picture that the exchange of fire happened right inside that hostel, is that correct, and then thereafter you burnt the hostel? MR MHLAULI Yes, that is correct. MR SIBEKO Did you burn the hostel whilst you were still inside or were you already on your way out? MR MHLAULI I would say we burnt it on our way out. MR SIBEKO Are you in a position to tell us about the people with whom you exchanged fire, what happened to them ultimately, did you see them running out of the hostel, did you see them maybe going inside the hostel units, jumping through the fence - or the windows, what happened to them, are you in a position to tell us? MR MHLAULI We saw some of them fleeing and some of them got injured, died there, because yes we did see some of them fleeing. MR SIBEKO That's, those who might have died then, those who might have been injured were through the result of your actions, is that correct? MR MHLAULI That is correct. Tell me, Mr Mhlauli, did you burn down the whole hostel or just the sectoin of the hostel? MR MHLAULI We only burnt down a certain sectoin of the hostel. What did you use to burn it down? MR MHLAULI I wouldn't say, because I was carrying the AK47, I don't know what they used to set it alight. Who were the people responsible for setting it alight? MR MHLAULI: I would say the plan was not well set up, so that I am not in the position who was responsible or to be assigned to looting or burning. You mentioned looting. Does that mean that you went in, you fired, you exchanged fire, then some people threw whatever, burnt the hostel, and others looted, is that essentially what happened as you know it? MR MHLAULI That is correct. Now the things that you looted, what happened to those items? MR MHLAULI Some of our people took ownership of these things, they took whatever they could lay their hands on. Was there a particular commander in charge of this operation? MR MHLAULI No, I won't say so, because this whole mission was not well planned, I didn't even know the commander. Where I was actually operating most of the time was in Thokoza, I was just assisting there. Thank you. MR SIBEKO MR MHLAULI It was just TV's and other electrical appliances. MR SIBEKO How did you gain your entrance at the gate, didn't they have security guards standing there? MR MHLAULI No, it was during the night, we went through an opening on the fence. MR SIBEKO Is there anything that you'd want to add on this incident? MR MHLAULI No. Tell me, the Seluma people, did they have a proper structure, as the Lusaka A people had, where you had a commander, I mean Lusaka A even had the committee of seven, did they have that type of formal structure at Seluma, do you know? MR MHLAULI No, the Seluma Section was not well organised. Was Seluma Section part of Thokoza, the greater Thokoza area? MR MHLAULI No, Seluma Section falls under Katlehong. Thank you. MR SIBEKO Now, the last question to Mr Ngubane was that he's serving sentence and I can see that you are also in uniform. Do you confirm that you are serving time for something that nothing to do with the incidences that we are talking about here? MR MHLAULI No. MR SIBEKO Thank you, Mr Chairman, I've got nothing further. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SIBEKO CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Questions, Advocate Steenkamp? ADV STEENKAMP Mr Chairman, just one. Sir, you referred to the use of hand grenades. Were you ever attacked by IFP members with hand grenades? In other words, were your grouping ever attacked with hand grenades by IFP members? MR MHLAULI No. ADV STEENKAMP Thank you, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Panel, any questions? Just some of the other evidence we have heard, patrols, barricades, confiscating weapons from thugs, gangsters, were you involved in any of those activities? MR MHLAULI Yes, that is correct. Are you seeking amnesty for those activities as well? MR MHLAULI Yes, that is correct. I noticed that you do not mention the Mshayazafe incident, we have heard about that, were you not involved in that one at all? MR MHLAULI Yes, I was also present there. Do you want amnesty for that incident? MR MHLAULI Yes, the Mazibugu Hostel attack and the Mshayazafe Hostel attack. Just briefly tell us what your role was in the Mshayazafe attack? MR MHLAULI I was at home on that particular day. One comrade came from 21 Battalion, as we were operating in the sections we were working in as under 21 Battalion. This comrade came to tell me that there was a message that things are bad at Slovo Section, Mandela. I went to the office that used to be our meeting point. I was briefed with the other comrades that I used to work with, I was briefed about this situation of Slovo and how did they get this message, they got this message with a two-way radio, and I had already heard that there were gunshots coming from that section. We went to Penduka. We tried to assist the comrades from Slovo Mandela Section. We managed to find the enemy and after that we withdrew. We went to Khumalo Street and we were still expecting anything to happen, but it was still quiet, the Stability Unit was patrolling the area. As we were standing there, waiting, Mr Ngubane suggested that we leave and get something to eat. We were in groups, we were moving in groups and we left our equipment in the houses in Khumalo Section. As we were moving, we heard a sound, an explosion, that was unexpected. There was another one. As we were walking there, our members realised that things are bad and we went back to our ammunition and we went back to the area where there was this chaos, this explosion. I thought that was a bomb, because we would hear a gunshot and a bomb explosion. We went back. We saw a smoke coming from the hostel, Mshayazafe Hostel. It was myself and Mr Ngubane and Mr Tshabalala, who was well known as Zuzu, and Mr Kambule. We managed to reach that opening that was on the wall that was caused by the bomb explosion. We fired there through that opening and we had to withdraw, because one comrade fell, Comrade Stoffel, a comrade from our section, when the Stability Unit came and we had to withdraw. Did you manage to get into the hostel premises as Mr Ngubane did, or were you outside the premises as some of the others were not able to get in at all, where were you? MR MHLAULI We went through that opening that was caused by the explosion, but we didn't get straight inside, because we couldn't trust anything, we were afraid of getting inside. So essentially you just went into the premises without going into the yard or the hostel? This is what you're saying? MR MHLAULI The opening was on the wall of the hostel, we went through that opening. Oh, I had a picture of the hole in the fence actually. You've helped me. Tell me, once you were through the wall, you were just in the yard, so to speak, or were you in a building, once you were through the wall, just get the picture right for me? MR MHLAULI It was the wall of the house, the hostel itself. And you are saying there's a possibility that in your activities somebody was killed or injured, and you take accountability for that? MR MHLAULI Yes, that is correct, because whenever you attack, you expect some injuries or even death, that was a war situation. Thank you. Thank you, chair. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR SIBEKO CHAIRPERSON Yes, Mr Mhlauli, thank you, you're excused. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON Yes, Mr Sibeko, we've had a gruelling afternoon. I assume that there is no applicant that is going to tell us about half an incident only? MR SIBEKO Mr Chairman, I'm afraid that almost the remainder of the applicants for today have almost the same length of testimony. CHAIRPERSON No, well in that case we won't be able to do justice to any of them, and will therefore adjourn the proceedings until tomorrow morning at nine o'clock. We're adjourned. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS