amntrans AMNESTY HEARING 1998-12-04 PALM RIDGE 9 VUSUMUZI KENNETH MABIZELA AM 7762/96 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53041&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1998/9811231210_pr_981204th.htm ON RESUMPTION CHAIRPERSON Mr Sibeko, who is the next applicant? MR SIBEKO The next applicant is Mr Kenneth Vusumuzi Mabizela. His application appears on page 321, Lusaka A. CHAIRPERSON Yes, Mr Mabizela, do you hear? MR MABIZELA Yes. VUSUMUZI KENNETH MABIZELA (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR SIBEKO Mr Mabizela, you've also applied for amnesty, is that correct? MR MABIZELA Yes, that is correct. MR SIBEKO Were you also a member of the Self Defence Unit? MR MABIZELA Yes. MR SIBEKO Were you a member of the Self Defence Unit, Lusaka A? MR MABIZELA Yes. MR SIBEKO You confirm that Mr Moosa Msimango was your commander? MR MABIZELA Yes. MR SIBEKO Will I be correct if I say that you joined the Self Defence Unit in 1993? MR MABIZELA Yes. MR SIBEKO Do you have incidences of violence that you were involved in before the year 1993? MR MABIZELA No. MR SIBEKO Do you have specific acts of - do you have incidences wherein you were involved after 1993 as a member of the Self Defence Unit? MR MABIZELA Yes. MR SIBEKO Kindly tell us of those incidences? MR MABIZELA I was involved in Mandela Section in a kombi, and the matter at Mazibugu, I was also involved in the matter that took place at Mazibugu Street. MR SIBEKO Where a kombi was attacked, is it the same incidence that was referred to by Mr Ngubane? MR MABIZELA Yes. MR SIBEKO What was your role in that incident? MR MABIZELA I went to hit a target there. MR SIBEKO By a target, are you referring to this kombi? MR MABIZELA Yes, I'm referring to the kombi. MR SIBEKO Were you carrying any weapon? MR MABIZELA Yes, I was armed with an AK47 rifle. MR SIBEKO Did you fire any shots towards this kombi? MR MABIZELA Yes I did. MR SIBEKO Are you in a position to tell us whether you hit the target, and if so you could injure or kill the occupants of that kombi? MR MABIZELA I did hit the target, because I was aiming at it. MR SIBEKO Yes, but are you in a position to tell us whether your bullet injured or killed anybody who was in the kombi? MR MABIZELA I think I managed to injure people inside, because the bullets reached the kombi, the bullet hit the kombi. MR SIBEKO You're applying for amnesty for this particular, in fact for your unlawful possession of the AK and you shooting towards this kombi or causing injury or death to anybody who might have been involved in that - who might have been in the kombi? MR MABIZELA Yes, that is correct. MR SIBEKO Now you have also mentioned that you were involved in an incident at Mazibugu Street. When was this incident? MR MABIZELA It took place in 1994. MR SIBEKO Is this incident the one that was referred to by Mr Ngubane again which occurred at, what's the section, is it Slovo or Mandela? MR MABIZELA Mandela. Yes, that is the same incident. MR SIBEKO What was your role in this incident? MR MABIZELA I was in the covering group. As I was in the covering group, I was waiting for the people going out, I was in the first covering group. We would wait for them and go on with the fight, so we would wait for them until they come out of the place. Until they come out of which place? MR MABIZELA In the entrance. You were waiting for the IFP people to come out of their places so you could shoot at them, or you were waiting for your comrades who were retreating and you were giving them cover, which of the two is it, just help me? MR MABIZELA We would wait for our comrades on their way out. MR SIBEKO Were you carrying an AK47 in this incident? MR MABIZELA Yes. MR SIBEKO Did you get any opportunity of using your AK47 as you were in the covering group? MR MABIZELA Yes. MR SIBEKO Tell us what happened? MR MABIZELA The first group that went in, on their way out we went inside and fired, we were actually shooting at the people, at the IFP people who were inside. If you can just be explicit, inside where, just to help us, because right now we have so many incidents in our mind and it's in the same area, so it helps us identify which one you're talking about if you're just a little more specific. Thanks. MR MABIZELA As the group went in, into Mazibugu, we were running in the covers among the houses. MR SIBEKO Now who exactly did you direct your shots at when your comrades exited from the area where the fight was? MR MABIZELA We were directing at IFP members. Where exactly were these IFP members, in houses, in the hostel, on the street? MR MABIZELA They were running up and down and we were also doing the same thing, but we could see them, and they could see us and we were shooting, and we were taking covers also. The others were falling, but I didn't know who were falling, I didn't know their names. MR SIBEKO So it's possible that, as a result of your shots, you could have injured or killed somebody from, or a number of people from the IFP members? MR MABIZELA Yes, that is correct. MR SIBEKO And you're applying for amnesty for carrying that AK47 and for the shooting that you made? MR MABIZELA Yes. MR SIBEKO Is there any other incident? MR SIBEKO Yes, the incident of Mshayazafe. I was also in the covering group, first covering group, but I did not manage to reach the wall as the other comrades went through the opening. At Mpazane Street, the houses at Mpazane Street were actually facing the hostel. We were shooting and some comrades got inside and I was actually keeping guard on the ISU. One comrade passed away, whose name was Stoffel, and he was brought out of that place, but he went in there without an AK47, but when they were taking him, they brought him to me and the other comrades from the other sections were there. I took this comrade to one of the houses there. MR SIBEKO Is this the incident that occurred in 1994? MR MABIZELA Yes. MR SIBEKO You were carrying an AK47 in this particular incident? MR MABIZELA Yes. Sorry, Mr Sibeko, just give us a second, we're just talking about something ...(indistinct). CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Sibeko, carry on please. MR SIBEKO Now, in this incident at Mazayazafi, did you get an opportunity of using your AK47? MR MABIZELA No. MR SIBEKO But you associate yourself with the conduct of your comrades who got an opportunity of getting inside the hostel and fire some shots towards the IFP people, is that correct? MR MABIZELA Yes, that is correct. MR SIBEKO And you are applying for amnesty for that attack and your carrying of an unlawful firearm, is that correct? MR MABIZELA Yes, that is correct. MR SIBEKO Is there any other incident that you want us to know? MR MABIZELA Yes, the incident at Slovo Section. MR SIBEKO When was this incident at Slovo Section? MR MABIZELA It was in 1994. MR SIBEKO What happened? MR MABIZELA We got a message at Lusaka Section that the IFP had infiltrated, so they were looking for some assistance. We went there to assist them, as our commander had already said, and Ngubane was his deputy. I went to another group seven, I went to Dagani Street. We were already mixed with the other sections, even the comrades from Slovo already there. The role I played there, I was shooting, shooting at the IFP members. MR SIBEKO Were you carrying a pistol or an AK47? MR MABIZELA I was armed with an AK47 rifle. MR SIBEKO Do you know whether you, as a result of your shooting, anybody might have died or got injured, that is from the side of the IFP? MR MABIZELA Yes, people were injured, even from our own group. MR SIBEKO But you don't rule out the possibility that there could be others who might have died from the side of the IFP? MR MABIZELA I cannot say, because the people were shooting and the people would fall and we would proceed. MR SIBEKO But it's possible that some of them might have died as a result of the shooting, is that correct? MR MABIZELA Yes, that is possible. MR SIBEKO And you take the responsibility as one of the people who fired shots towards the IFP members, is that correct? MR MABIZELA Yes, that is correct. MR SIBEKO And as a result you are applying for amnesty for this incident and for carrying an unlawful firearm? MR MABIZELA Yes, that is correct. MR SIBEKO Is there any other incident? MR MABIZELA No, there's nothing else. MR SIBEKO Thank you, Mr Chairman, no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SIBEKO CHAIRPERSON Questions, Advocate Steenkamp? ADV STEENKAMP No thank you, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Questions by the panel? Thank you, Chair. Mr Mabizela, where did you keep this firearm? MR MABIZELA I did not have a choice, I had to keep a firearm because I was a member of the SDU. Now what I'm trying to establish is whether the firearm was continuously in your possession? MR MABIZELA No, I would get it from my commander, Moosa Msimango. Thank you, thank you Chair. Mr Mabizela, the Mazibugu incident, it could have been December '93, or it could have been in '94? MR MABIZELA If my memory serves me well, it was in 1994. Were there a number of incidents at Mazibugu that you know of, apart from the one in '94? MR MABIZELA I cannot say because I was only involved in two incidents and the one at Mandela Section. But it is possible that there were more that you were not involved in? MR MABIZELA Yes, that is possible. Just remind me, the Slovo Section, this last one you referred to, was that the one when Bonga sent the message that they needed help? MR MABIZELA Bonga was not at Slovo Section, but he was at Mandela Section. So really what you talked about, the Mazibugu Street incident in 1994, when you went with Sipho Ngubane, would that have been the one where Bonga asked for assistance from you, that's the one that happened at Mandela Section? MR MABIZELA Yes, that is correct. This incident at Slovo Section, was that just before the elections? Do you know when it happened in relation to the election? MR MABIZELA It took place before the elections. Give me a rough estimate as to whether it would have been in January or in April, in relation to those May, the April elections rather, would it have been towards April or more in the early part of the year, just if you can remember? MR MABIZELA If I'm not mistaken, I think it was in April. Tell me, you say that you weren't involved in any incidents prior to 1993, are you then excluding any patrols, any barricading, you were not involved in any of those activities? MR MABIZELA Yes, I was involved in barricading and patrolling. And that would have been before 1993? MR MABIZELA It took place in 1993. Are there any incidents in relation to barricading and patrolling that you seek amnesty for? You know, if you did nothing but just patrolled, and you didn't search people, you didn't harass or assault them, then of course there's nothing to apply for, but if there was any form of assault or any form of a violation of their rights, you may want to apply for amnesty for that in that case, you know just during the barricading and patrolling incidents? MR MABIZELA There is something that I did during the patrolling and barricading, and I'm applying for amnesty for that. Yes, but you just need to give us an idea as to what something is. It could have been killing somebody, I wouldn't know, just give us an idea, "When I was patrolling, this is the type of thing I did. When I barricaded, this is the type of thing I might have done", just one sentence, one sentence. MR MABIZELA As we were barricading, we used to patrol and assault people. If we see people with a sharp object or firearms, we would confiscate them. We would accompany that particular person to his or her home and we would proceed with our job patrolling and barricading. But you didn't do any of this before 1993? I just want to cover everything that we've heard in the last week and a bit, in fact in the last two weeks, just to make sure that you are not leaving anything out, pre-1993 you didn't do any barricading and patrolling, like some of your other comrades? MR MABIZELA No, I was never involved, I started in 1993. Thank you very much, thank you Chair. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR SIBEKO CHAIRPERSON Yes, Mr Mabizela, thank you, you're excused. WITNESS EXCUSED