amntrans AMNESTY HEARING 1998-12-08 PRETORIA 11 BULI DAVID GUMBI AM 7577/97 SELF DEFENCE UNITS https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53049&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1998/9811231210_pr_981208th.htm ON RESUMPTION CHAIRPERSON The next matter is the application of Mr Buli David Gumbi. It is application AM7577/97. It appears at page 104 in the Lusaka B bundle, and Mr Sibeko is appearing for the applicant. Mr Gumbi, can you hear me? MR GUMBI Yes, I can. CHAIRPERSON Mr Gumbi, won't you just stand and give us your full names? MR GUMBI My name is Buli David Gumbi. BULI DAVID GUMBI (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Thank you sir, you may sit down. Mr Sibeko? EXAMINATION BY MR SIBEKO Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Gumbi, you have made an application for amnesty, is that correct? MR GUMBI Yes, that is correct. MR SIBEKO Were you a member of the Self Defence Unit, Lusaka B? MR GUMBI Yes, that is correct. MR SIBEKO When did you join the Self Defence Unit? MR GUMBI In 1993. MR SIBEKO Who was your Commander? MR GUMBI It was Makasonke Mhlope. MR SIBEKO Do you have any incidents where you were involved in before the year 1993? MR GUMBI Yes. MR SIBEKO Do you mind telling us about those incidents? MR GUMBI In 1993, I do not remember the date ... ADV GCABASHE Sorry Mr Gumbi, your Counsel wants you to start with the ones before 1993. MR GUMBI Maybe I do not understand the question. MR SIBEKO You only joined the Self Defence Unit in 1993, is that correct? MR GUMBI Yes, that is correct. MR SIBEKO Before joining the Self Defence Unit, were there any acts where you were defending your community which occurred before 1993, that is before you joined the Self Defence Unit in 1993? Are there incidents where you were involved before that date? MR GUMBI No. MR SIBEKO You have already stated that there are incidents after 1993. Tell us about those incidents. MR GUMBI In 1993, there was a fight already between the people who were staying in the townships and the IFP members. I remember very well about an incident where I was involved. There were IFP members who were residing at my home. As I knew these people, and they were also aware that there was a conflict between the ANC members and the IFP members, they left my home and they went to stay at Nqaki Street. As we knew these people that they were problematic in the community, Makasonke issued an order, an instruction, because there were other IFP members in our Section, he issued an order that those people should be removed. We divided ourselves into groups and we had different mandates. I was in the group that was going to Nqaki Street, where these IFP members who used to reside at my place, were staying. MR SIBEKO Those people who were staying at your place, I am under the impression that you are in a position to tell us about them. Do you know those people? Do you know maybe the surname? MR GUMBI Yes, I know them. It is Mr Matebula the one that I can still remember. MR SIBEKO Is Mr Matebula the one who moved and stayed at Nqaki Street? MR GUMBI Yes, that is correct. MR SIBEKO Did he move with his family or did he stay alone? MR GUMBI He was not staying with his family at my home. His family was in Natal, he was staying all alone. MR SIBEKO What happened when you arrived at Nqaki? MR GUMBI We went to Nqaki Street, it was myself, Stambu, Dumisani, Rambo. ADV GCABASHE Stambu, Dumisani, Rambo and yourself? MR GUMBI Yes. When we arrived there, Mr Matebula was staying in a shack. Stambu knocked at his door. Mr Matebula did not ask who was at the door, he just opened the door. When he opened the door, if my memory serves me well, I was unarmed. I had a container with petrol inside, the only person who was armed, was Stambu. When Mr Matebula opened the door, Stambu started firing. When Mr Matebula fell, I poured petrol over his body and in the shack. Rambo lit a match, the whole place was on fire and Mr Matebula inside. MR SIBEKO You will correct me if I am wrong, you were carrying a five litre container containing petrol? Who was carrying a firearm, and which type of firearm? MR GUMBI The person who had a firearm, was Stambu. It was an AK47 rifle. MR SIBEKO Was Dumisani carrying anything? MR GUMBI If my memory serves me well, Dumisani had a knife. All of us, the four of us, each and every person had something. MR SIBEKO And then Rambo? MR GUMBI Rambo had a knife and a match. MR SIBEKO So will I be correct then that before you went to Nqaki Street, to this house where you attacked Mr Matebula, you knew exactly what you were going to do if you found him, is that correct? MR GUMBI Yes, that is correct. MR SIBEKO Then you when Makasonke shot at him, you poured petrol over his body and you also poured your petrol in the shack and you set it alight, that is Rambo set it alight? By that time, was he still alive or was he already dead, that is Mr Matebula? MR GUMBI As far as I am concerned, because the firearm was loaded, I think about eight rounds were fired, I think at that time he was already dead. ADV GCABASHE Can I just check on one thing? It is Stambu, not Makasonke who fired? MR GUMBI Makasonke was a Commander who instructed us and Stambu fired. ADV GCABASHE But Makasonke was not there at the time, or was he there? I have just missed his name if he was there. MR GUMBI No, Makasonke was not there at Nqaki Street. MR SIBEKO Now that you say he was already dead, what was the reason for you to set him alight? MR GUMBI The reason for us to set him alight, we had a belief that, we knew that these IFP members, most of them, they believed in muti, we did not want to find ourselves in trouble. His family could take his body and perform something, so that we can get into trouble. That is why we decided to set him alight, because we wanted to prevent his family from doing something, from performing something on his dead body that would lead us into trouble. MR SIBEKO Do you know what ultimately happened to the burning shack and Mr Matebula? MR GUMBI The body was burnt down and the shack itself, everything was just destroyed. MR SIBEKO Is this the only incident that you were involved in? MR GUMBI Yes, this is the only incident. MR SIBEKO We have heard evidence to the effect that there were patrols and barricades that were made now and then, during those days, were you never involved in those activities? MR GUMBI Yes, I was once involved during the barricading and patrolling in our Section. MR SIBEKO In your patrols and barricades, are there specific incidents where you found yourself having to deal with individual members of the community who were found with illegal firearms or whatever sort of weapon? Did you have to interact with any member of the public? MR GUMBI Yes, I used to find myself in such situations. MR SIBEKO What happened to the weapons that you found from those people? MR GUMBI We would take the firearms and hand them to the Commander and the Commander would decide on what to do with the firearms, and distribute it to the other people who were patrolling. MR SIBEKO And what happened to the people from whom those weapons were found? Would you just leave them as they are, nothing happened to them? MR GUMBI If we got arms from the members in the community, and if we knew that this person was from our own community, that person would be disciplined with a sjambok. If the person did not belong to the SDU or did not belong to our Section, maybe that particular person would be an enemy, that person would die. MR SIBEKO Do you have a specific incident and if possible, give us the name of any person, where you were involved, maybe that person was found with that weapon and disciplined as you say. MR GUMBI No. MR SIBEKO What you have just explained is what normally happened, not that you were specifically involved in such incidents where people were found? MR GUMBI This is something that used to happen, it is not that I was involved. MR SIBEKO In other words, I will be correct if I say you are applying for amnesty with respect to the incident that happened at Nqaki Street, where Mr Matebula was set alight and his property was also set alight, is that correct? MR GUMBI Yes, that is correct. MR SIBEKO Thank you Mr Chairman, no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SIBEKO CHAIRPERSON Any questions, Adv Steenkamp? ADV STEENKAMP Thank you Mr Chairperson, none, thank you. NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY ADV STEENKAMP CHAIRPERSON Questions by the panel? ADV SANDI Mr Gumbi, Mr Matebula, was he a tenant at your parents' premises? MR GUMBI Yes, he was a tenant. ADV SANDI Was he getting on well with your family, without any frictions? MR GUMBI Everything was just normal among my family. There were no problems between my family and Mr Matebula. ADV SANDI I will ask you to listen very carefully to this question. Were you personally ever present at a time when someone was being beaten up with a sjambok, were you ever present during such occasions? MR GUMBI No. ADV SANDI Thank you Mr Gumbi. Thank you Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. ADV GCABASHE Thank you Chairperson. Mr Gumbi, just to confirm Nqaki Street is in Lusaka A, isn't it? MR GUMBI Nqaki Street, yes, that is correct. ADV GCABASHE Now the Commander at Lusaka A, was Musang Msimango? MR GUMBI Yes, that is correct. ADV GCABASHE Two questions, did he know that you were coming into his area to execute a particular operation, if he didn't, were you supposed to tell him? I just want to understand how this worked? MR GUMBI As far as I am concerned, the commanders were working together and the commanders would give one another information on something that would happen, the attacks that would take place in the future. ADV GCABASHE As far as you are concerned, Musang Msimango would have heard from Mhlope, Makasonke Mhlope, that you would be coming in to do a particular thing in that area? MR GUMBI Yes, that is correct. ADV GCABASHE Thank you. Thank you Chair. CHAIRPERSON Mr Sibeko, any re-examination? MR SIBEKO None, thank you Mr Chairperson. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR SIBEKO CHAIRPERSON Mr Gumbi, thank you very much, you are excused. WITNESS EXCUSED