amntrans AMNESTY HEARING 1998-12-08 PRETORIA 11 DOCTOR NKONYANE AM 7267/97 SELF DEFENCE UNITS https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53050&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1998/9811231210_pr_981208th.htm CHAIRPERSON Gentlemen, is there anything else that is lined up for today or have we reached the end of the list? ADV STEENKAMP Mr Chairman, there is one light in the tunnel, and this is that the application from my side of Mr Julius Mganiso, his application appears in Lusaka B, his application is page 148, his application number 7041/97, Mr Chairman, I am requesting with respect that this application also be postponed or removed from the roll because this application also deals with the Sisulu Section, and that it also be heard on the next roll, which means there is four applications left on the roll for today. I understand there is one or two applicants left, I am not sure what Mr Sibeko's position is regarding that. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Adv Steenkamp, so that is removed for the moment, and to be re-enrolled for the later hearing? ADV STEENKAMP That is correct Mr Chairman, I am sure if you look at Lusaka B, there is four applications left. The one of Mr Mkhize Zwayi which appears on page 183 in the bundle, it is the last person on the list of applications appearing in the index, this person was taken back to prison today for logistical purposes. He will be back tomorrow, which means there are three applicants left, Mr Oscar Msibi, Doctor Nkonyane and Mr Sibiya. I think they are all still present. CHAIRPERSON Mr Sibeko, what is your position? MR SIBEKO Mr Chairman, I have about three applicants who are present here, and whom I have already consulted. CHAIRPERSON All right. Which is the one that was with the gentleman that we heard yesterday, I think it was? ADV GCABASHE Ngwengwa. CHAIRPERSON Is it Ngwengwa? ADV STEENKAMP Mr Chairman, if I can help there, it was Doctor Nkonyane, his application appears on page 169. That was the third individual, 7267 Mr Chairman, he is on the last page of the index of Lusaka B, the last applicant. You will see on the first page of Lusaka B, Doctor Nkonyane, that was the last person that was present of the three yesterday. That is the one Mr Chairman, who stood down actually yesterday after we postponed. CHAIRPERSON Is that one of the ones that you have ready? MR SIBEKO It is correct Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Can we, without wanting to prescribe to you, but is it possible for us to take that application? MR SIBEKO It is very much possible. CHAIRPERSON We will then proceed with the application of Doctor Nkonyane, AM7267/97. CHAIRPERSON Mr Nkonyane, can you hear me? MR NKONYANE Yes. CHAIRPERSON Won't you please stand and give your full names for the record? MR NKONYANE My name is Doctor Nkonyane. DOCTOR NKONYANE (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much, please sit down. Mr Sibeko? EXAMINATION BY MR SIBEKO Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Nkonyane, you have also made an application for amnesty, is that correct? MR NKONYANE Yes, that is correct. MR SIBEKO Were you a member of the Self Defence Unit, or were you an office bearer in any organised structure? MR NKONYANE I was a member of a community organisation that was called Thokoza Civic Association. I was a General Secretary. That was from 1990 up to 1991, mid 1991. Because of the problems, I had to leave the place and I had to go and reside at Polla Park. I just stayed there like any other resident, but because of harassment or being accused of something as a person who was known as a member of the Civic Association, I was elected as a Coordinator or Organiser under the Commander of the time. MR SIBEKO In other words you were not a member of the Self Defence Units, but you were sort of a Coordinator between - Coordinator of the Self Defence Units liaising with the commanders, is that what you are saying? MR NKONYANE Yes, that is correct. MR SIBEKO Will I then be correct to say that you never possessed or carried any arm or ammunition during this period 1990 to 1994? MR NKONYANE I never carried anything of that sort, of that nature. MR SIBEKO Will I further be correct if I say that you never participated in any attack whatsoever, that occurred or that might have occurred during that period, is that correct? MR NKONYANE I was never involved in those things. MR SIBEKO What is the reason for your application for amnesty? MR NKONYANE The reason for me to apply for amnesty is as a General Secretary of Thokoza Civic, as the then General Secretary of Thokoza Civic Association, because of the state of emergency that started in 1990, it started our neighbours who were in Khatlehong, where the taxi groups were fighting, we learnt a lesson there. It happened on a Friday ... MR SIBEKO Sir, firstly you are proceeding too fast and then secondly, we have already heard evidence about how violence started in Khatlehong and Thokoza. What we are actually looking for here is your actual involvement in the activities of the Self Defence Unit. The reason why you applied for amnesty, not the historical background, as to how the violence started? MR NKONYANE The reason for me to apply for amnesty, it is because I was the one who encouraged the people to form the Self Defence Units. MR SIBEKO In your application sir, on page 170, you state that you as a Coordinator, you were responsible for amongst other things, collecting money from people to buy arms. Did you buy those arms personally? MR NKONYANE What I was doing was whenever there was a decision of collecting the money, there were people who were appointed to do that, collect those money and they would bring that money to me, and I would be told to give people some amounts of money in order to buy arms. That is what I used to do. MR SIBEKO Am I understanding you correctly if I say that after the money has been collected, it would be given over to you and then you would keep that money and give it to whoever, when the resolution is taken that arms should be bought? In other words you were supplying cash in order to purchase arms and ammunition? MR NKONYANE Yes, that is correct. MR SIBEKO And you knew that that conduct was unlawful, is that correct, that is the purchasing of illegal arms and ammunition? MR NKONYANE Yes, that is correct. MR SIBEKO Is there any other thing, apart from supplying cash that you were involved in during those times, that has to do with your application? MR NKONYANE There is no other role that I played. MR SIBEKO Thank you Mr Chairman, no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SIBEKO CHAIRPERSON Thank you, any questions Adv Steenkamp? ADV STEENKAMP Thank you Mr Chairman, no questions. NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY ADV STEENKAMP CHAIRPERSON Panel? ADV SANDI Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Nkonyane, maybe I did not follow you very well, did you personally go around, collecting money from people so that arms could be purchased? MR NKONYANE I never collected the money, there were people who were mandated to do that and they would give that money to me, and I would count that money and I had to make a report back at some stage, if there was no more money. ADV SANDI And the report back, that would be done at a meeting where everyone from the community would come and discuss? MR NKONYANE The report back would be done at a meeting where only males were allowed to attend. ADV SANDI I understand you attended those meetings as one of the leaders in the community, you played a prominent role in the taking of decisions? MR NKONYANE Yes, that is correct. ADV SANDI Were you at any stage aware of an attack that was going to be launched on members of the IFP? MR NKONYANE Such things wouldn't be discussed in front of us as people who were wearing suits and people who were communicating with the police. Those discussions would be held secretly. ADV SANDI As one of the influential, leading figures in the community, would you subsequently become aware once attacks had been carried out? MR NKONYANE As I have told that such things, such discussions were only for commanders who were involved in the fight, we would not get anything, we would not get any information concerning such things. Such discussions would be held secretly. ADV SANDI What I am trying to find out from you Mr Nkonyane is, whether you played any role to try and frustrate the arm of the law so that the people who had carried out such attacks, could not be arrested? MR NKONYANE Will you please rephrase your question sir? ADV SANDI You did not personally have to do anything to protect the people who were carrying out these attacks? MR NKONYANE There was no way for me to protect the people who came to attack. ADV SANDI But nevertheless you supported those attacks, because they were carried out in the name of defending your community? MR NKONYANE I could not support anything that I did not hear or understand. I was never told that people were going out to attack. The only thing that I witnessed was the people coming to attack in our community. ADV SANDI Thank you Mr Nkonyane, thank you Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Any re-examination Mr Sibeko? MR NKONYANE None, Mr Chairperson, thank you. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR SIBEKO CHAIRPERSON Mr Nkonyane, thank you, you are excused. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON We will adjourn the proceedings at this stage until tomorrow morning at half past nine. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS