amntrans TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSIO AMNESTY HEARING 1998-12-09 PALM RIDGE 12 OSCAR MSIBI AM 7373/97 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53052&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1998/9811231210_pr_981209th.htm CHAIRPERSON Mr Sibeko, who is next? MR SIBEKO The next applicant is Mr Oscar Msibi. His application is on page 96, Lusaka B. CHAIRPERSON Mr Msibi, can you hear? MR MSIBI Yes, I can hear. CHAIRPERSON Won't you please stand and then give your full names for the record? MR MSIBI My name is Oscar Msibi. OSCAR MSIBI (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Thank you, please sit down. Mr Sibeko? EXAMINATION BY MR SIBEKO Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Msibi, you have also made an application for amnesty, is that correct? MR MSIBI That is correct sir. MR SIBEKO Were you also a member of the Self Defence Unit, Lusaka B in Thokoza? MR MSIBI That is correct. MR SIBEKO When did you join the Unit? MR MSIBI During 1993. MR SIBEKO Who was your Commander? MR MSIBI It was Makasonke Mhlope. MR SIBEKO Were you ever involved in any incidents where barricades and patrols were made prior to 1993? MR MSIBI No. MR SIBEKO Your active involvement in the defence of the community started in 1993, is that correct? MR MSIBI Yes, that is correct. MR SIBEKO From 1993, do you have specific incidents where you were involved in the defence of the community? MR MSIBI Yes, there are certain occurrences that took place, or an occurrence. MR SIBEKO Do you mind telling us about that? MR MSIBI I don't remember the year specifically, I don't remember the date, but I do remember that it was during 1993, I was living at Mdambo Street and at my neighbour's place there was a member of Inkatha, who went by the name of Ben Skakane, who was residing at my neighbour's place. On this particular day, my Commander Makasonke Mhlope, came to my place. Because I knew where this man stayed, we proceeded to his shack and Makasonke at that time, had an AK47 in his possession. We proceeded to the particular shack where this man stayed. We attacked the shack and fled thereafter. MR SIBEKO What time of the day did this incident occur? MR MSIBI It was at night, but I am not sure as to the exact time. But Makasonke woke me up from my sleep, so it was quite late. MR SIBEKO Will I be correct to say that you are not in a position to tell us whether Mr Skakane's shack was occupied or there was anybody in the shack when you fired shots towards it? MR MSIBI No, I have no clarity because we did not check. MR SIBEKO It is possible that there were people inside the shack? MR MSIBI No, I do not think that there is anyone who got injured, because we could have heard it the following day. But he came the following day or the day after, to pick up his belongings. I don't know where he went to. MR SIBEKO Before we jump to the next day, I want us to clear this up. Okay, was Mr Skakane staying alone in the shack or did he have a family? MR MSIBI He lived alone. MR SIBEKO But at the time you fired shots, you say you don't know whether he was there or not? MR MSIBI Yes, that is what I was saying. MR SIBEKO So you believed that he was not there or he was not hurt if he was there, because you saw him the following morning when he came to fetch his belongings? MR MSIBI That is correct. MR SIBEKO I am under the impression that there were a number of shacks in the yard, so that you were the one who identified Mr Skakane's shack, is that correct? MR MSIBI That is correct. MR SIBEKO So you are applying for amnesty for your participation in the attack on Mr Skakane's property? MR MSIBI That is correct. MR SIBEKO Is there any other incident where you were involved in as a member of the Unit? MR MSIBI Yes, there is. MR SIBEKO When did the incident occur and what happened? MR MSIBI This is not something that happened, but before I used that gun, I am the one who was collecting the money for the purchase of this particular gun. I don't know whether this is an offence, but I think I will include it in my amnesty application. MR SIBEKO You knew that this AK47 that you say you were responsible for collecting money, you knew that it was unlawful to buy and possess it, is that correct? MR MSIBI Yes, that is correct. MR SIBEKO Thank you Mr Chairman, no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SIBEKO CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Sibeko. Adv Steenkamp, any questions? ADV STEENKAMP Thank you sir, no questions. NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY ADV STEENKAMP CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much. Panel? ADV GCABASHE Just clarify for me, so the AK47 that Makasonke brought, is the one that you used to shoot at Ben Skakane's shack? MR MSIBI It was used by Makasonke himself. ADV GCABASHE You see the reason I am asking, is now with the second incident, you say before I used that gun, I collected money for the purchase of that gun. What are you talking about, which gun did you use and where did you use it? MR MSIBI That is the very same gun that was used by Makasonke. ADV GCABASHE So in saying before you used it, you are just associating yourself with what Makasonke did because he is the one who physically shot? MR MSIBI Yes, I am just associating myself with the deed. ADV GCABASHE Thank you. Thank you Chair. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Sibeko, any re-examination? MR SIBEKO None, thank you Mr Chairman. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR SIBEKO CHAIRPERSON Mr Msibi, thank you very much, you are excused. WITNESS EXCUSED ADV STEENKAMP Mr Chairman, there is some additional information on this incident, if I may just add that to the record. Mr Chairman and Honourable members, I was informed that Mr Ben Skakane was actually the inhabitant of the shack and at the time of the incident, this informal settlement was uninhabited, there was nobody present at the time of the attack. Mr Skakane recently left this area, he is now staying somewhere in Khumalo Street, we were however, unable to trace his current address in Khumalo Street. Thank you Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Thank you.