amntrans AMNESTY HEARING 1998-12-10 PRETORIA 13 ARGUMENT SELF DEFENCE UNITS https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53055&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1998/9811231210_pr_981210th.htm CHAIRPERSON All right, lady and gentlemen, I am not sure who is taking the first ball. They normally say ladies first, but I don't know, it is a new South Africa. Okay, so they are throwing you in the deep end, all right. Mr Sibeko, would you be ready to proceed? MR SIBEKO IN ARGUMENT That is correct Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, it is my submission that firstly the facts surrounding the applications brought by the applicants, are now common cause in that we had evidence from witnesses who were not exactly applicants before this forum as to how and the extent of the violence in the area of Tokoza occurred. I would quickly therefore submit Mr Chairman, that the applicants have made the reasonable disclosure under the circumstances, as they kept on explaining that they found themselves in a war situation or in a very violent situation, where they couldn't identify their opponents. Further on Mr Chairman, they have indicated that during whatever operations they carried, they had clear intentions. They admitted having carried arms of war and other dangerous instruments. It was also clear that throughout their operations, or activities, there was a line of command. The command started from their communities, which sought and needed protection at that time, filtered down to the various Commanders who in turn, instructed their soldiers to carry out every detailed activity which was mentioned by all the applicants. It was stated in some of the applicants that the situation went to an extent that amongst the community members themselves, there were fights which broke out or there were deaths which could not be accounted for, resulting to the adoption of the slogan "the killer must be killed." An explanation was given as to how it came about that such a slogan be adopted. Having said this Mr Chairman, I would also submit that all the activities and the killings or injuries that followed thereafter, were as a result of a political motive. The community was continuously under attack from the well known attackers who were identified either by their T-shirts or the headbands that they were wearing at the time. There is also evidence to the effect that at some stage those attackers were seen delivered by the State vehicles, that is the vehicles then used by the Internal Stability Unit or the police. There are some applicants who testified on their involvement in fights with gangsters. It is my submission that in those incidents of violence, it was the belief of the community that all activities by gangsters, were sanctioned or supported by the authorities who were perpetrators of violence. Gangsters turned out to be the enemies of the community at that time. That also Mr Chairman, I submit, the applicants, all the applicants who found themselves acting against the gangsters, had a political motive. It is my submission further Mr Chairman, that out of all the incidents that we heard throughout the applications, there is nowhere where one could quickly suspect or identify an element where one would say there was an intention or a personal gain whatsoever. There was no gain in favour of all the applicants. The acts which were carried out by the applicants, it is my submission further Mr Chairman, that all those acts were necessary under the circumstances. Although in some instances, there could have been excesses, but it is my submission Mr Chairman, that as the witnesses and the applicants themselves have testified, there was no time whatsoever, where one would try to put his or her acts under proper control. Having said all the above Mr Chairman, I would submit that the applicants have met the requirements of the Act and it is my request therefore that their application for amnesty should be granted. Furthermore Mr Chairman, may I be allowed to indicate the individual applicants and possibly the incidents which they applied for. First on the list Mr Chairman, is the Committee of 7 from Lusaka A. We had Mr Glenville Vilakazi, although I haven't indicated the relevant numbers, but Mr Vilakazi, he applied for amnesty in his collection of money from the community and buying illegal firearms. He also applied for supplying those arms to either the Commander or the members of the Self Defence Unit, which ultimately led to the injuries or deaths of a number of people in the community and the slogan "the killer must be killed", which was necessary at that time, but led to some incidents where people died. Secondly I have Mr Bafana Esau Radebe. CHAIRPERSON Is that Isaac Boetie Radebe? MR SIBEKO Mr Chairman, we've got Isaac Boetie Radebe and Bafana Esau Radebe. CHAIRPERSON All right, you are referring to Bafana? MR SIBEKO That is correct so Mr Chairman. Mr Bafana Esau Radebe was also involved in the activities of the Committee of 7, Lusaka A. He was also collecting money from the community for the purposes of buying arms and his support of the slogan "the killer must be killed", which as I have already stated, resulted in a number of deaths. The next member of the Committee was Mr Dumisani Mbatha, as well Mr Chairman, his involvement in the Committee of 7, he was responsible for necessitating the purchase of those arms by collecting money from the community and his support of the slogan "the killer must be killed." Then we had Mr Isaac Boetie Radebe. His incidents or his application is the same as all the other members of the Committee of 7, that is collecting money for the arms and "the killer must be killed." Thereafter we had Mr Mosa Dalton Msimango, who was a Commander of the Self Defence Unit at Lusaka A, Tokoza. CHAIRPERSON Those that you have mentioned, conclude the Committee of 7? MR SIBEKO That is correct so Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Basically the basis of their applications are identical, it is really the same thing? MR SIBEKO That is correct so Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON All right. You were going to go to the Commander? MR SIBEKO Thank you Mr Chairman. Mosa Dalton Msimango, his application Mr Chairman, covers his activities as the Commander, issuing instructions which resulted in the attacks and deaths or injuries or acts of malicious injury to property or arson that emanated from his instructions. He also indicated his actual involvement in the incidents as Buthelezi Street, where they exchanged fire with the members of the IFP. The incident at Mazibuko Street in Mandela Section in 1993, the incident at Mshayazafe hostel in 1994, his support of the slogan "the killer must be killed", which led to the death of Mbuso, I think it is Mbuso Gubela and his involvement in the patrols and barricades which might have led or which have led to some violations of human rights of individual members of the community at the time, and that would conclude Mr Msimango's application. ADV GCABASHE Mr Sibeko, do you have a date for the Buthelezi Street incident? MR SIBEKO The incident at Buthelezi, according to my notes, he never furnished a date, but he only indicated that it is an incident where they were summoned or they were called by the Commander at this Section, I think it is Slovo, is it Mandela, but the IFP members had already taken part of the houses belonging to the members of the community, where they were summoned to come in for assistance and push the members of the IFP back to their base as they kept on referring to. ADV GCABASHE Which Section would that have been? MR SIBEKO It would be Slovo Section. ADV GCABASHE Are you going to deal at a later stage with just the incidents, clarifying which is which incident or should I interrupt you as you go along? MR SIBEKO I would prefer that. May I proceed to the next applicant? Then we also had the application of Mr Nicholas Majiki. Mr Majiki applied for amnesty in the incident that occurred at Ngagi Street. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, who is the next one that you are dealing with Mr Sibeko, I was just distracted. MR SIBEKO It is Mr Nicholas Majiki. Amongst the incidents, he counted the incident that occurred at Ngagi Street where they identified a member of the IFP in a photograph and that member was caught by some of his comrades, members of the SDU and who was ultimately shot at. That is the incident that occurred at Ngagi Street. ADV GCABASHE Can I just get this right again, is that Levisa who was killed, is that the same incident? We can come back to it, I know I have mentioned him somewhere else in my notes. Do you have an address for Ngagi Street there, just to make sure that we are not duplicating incidents? MR SIBEKO No, this incident - what actually happened, they identified this person from the photographs which had the marchers of the IFP. If you remember well, there is evidence to the effect that that person was chased and caught at a certain area, Ngagi Street, that is where he was actually compared to the person that they saw in the photograph before he was shot. It didn't occur in a specific house, but it occurred at the street. ADV GCABASHE Go on because I know there is definitely Levisa who was, they actually found he was Levisa the following day or a couple of days later. It might be the same incident, it might not, but I will come back to you on that. MR SIBEKO He applied for amnesty for his involvement at Mshayazafe hostel in 1994, where all the applicants say one journalist died. Then he further applied for his involvement in Mazibuko Street, the same incident where Mosa Msimango was involved in 1993, in Mandela Section. Then he also applied for amnesty for his involvement in Penduka Section. I will have to check my notes for the details of this. This is where there they were summoned again to come for assistance. Before they could actually exchange fire with the members of the IFP, according to his testimony, they were disturbed by the ISU, so he's application was specifically for carrying an illegal firearm. ADV GCABASHE At Penduka? MR SIBEKO And then we heard Mr Veli Nhlapo. CHAIRPERSON Was Mr Nicholas Majiki, was he involved in patrols and barricading? MR SIBEKO He was also involved in patrols and barricades, thank you Mr Chairperson. And then we had the application of Mr Veli Nhlapo. Mr Nhlapo's application is the same as that of Mr Majiki, except that he was not present at Penduka. Then we had the application of Mr Xolile Makhawula, which is also the same as that of Mr Majiki and Mr Nhlapo. CHAIRPERSON Mr Sibeko, you know, I am just looking at Mr Nhlapo before we concluded. He referred to having shot and injured or killed, I am not sure, a member of the ISU. That was when one of my colleagues was asking questions. I will tell you now who it was, I don't know if you had picked it up or whether - yes, in fact Adv Gcabashe, her notes seem to agree with that, he seems to have said that after the Ngagi Street, when he was running away, he shot and whatever, injured or killed an ISU member? MR SIBEKO That is correct so Mr Chairman. That also goes in as well. CHAIRPERSON Then you say that David Makhawula is basically the same? MR SIBEKO It is the same as that of Mr Majiki and Mr Nhlapo. I would also request that it should be noted that they were also involved in patrolling and barricades as well. Then we had the application of Mr Michael Feni, the number is 7133/97. He testified about his involvement in the barricades and patrolling. He also testified about his involvement in the incident at Buthelezi Street, that was also mentioned by Mr Msimango. ADV GCABASHE Are you sure it is the same incident, because I have them here as possibly separate, but this is what I wanted to check with you, that it is one incident, when people talk about the Buthelezi incident, where there was the helicopter and the ISU arrived and there was a fight with the IFP, it is one incident? MR SIBEKO I would say it is possible that it is different incidents, but the notes that I have only indicate that the incident was that of Buthelezi, it is possible that it could be separate incidents. ADV GCABASHE We can come back to it right at the end if we want to, thank you. ADV SANDI Sorry Mr Sibeko, you are talking about Mr Michael Feni. Did he not say he was also involved in forcing members of the IFP out of their houses and allocating those houses to ANC people? MR SIBEKO I don't think that was Mr Feni. ADV GCABASHE It was Mr Feni, I have the same not in my summary, Ngagi Street, people were evicted, some were killed, Michael Feni. We have been working very hard Mr Sibeko. MR SIBEKO I might have confused them, but I only have Mr Ngwenya and Mr Khumalo who were supplying houses left by the IFP, to ... CHAIRPERSON No, I think you can accept that Mr Michael Feni was involved in this as well, you or he won't lose anything if you do. ADV GCABASHE So that would be at Ngagi Street all right? MR SIBEKO We heard the applications of Mr Johannes Tshabalala. His application number was 7210/97. Sorry, there is a mistake here, because the same number appears on the application of Mayisela, SB, so I am not sure which is the correct number. The correct number will be 7194/97, that of Mr Johannes Tshabalala. Then we had the application of Mr Nyakama, J. Nyakama. ADV GCABASHE Before you get to Mr Nyakama, what are you saying about Mr Tshabalala or are you putting them together? MR SIBEKO I would like to put them together because their incidents, all that they were involved in is collecting money. It is Johannes Tshabalala, J. Nyakama and Bennet Mayisela. They were not involved in any other activities. CHAIRPERSON Who is the third person Mr Sibeko. MR SIBEKO It is Bennet Mayisela. ADV GCABASHE Is that the same as Sammy, is it Sammy Bennet Mayisela? MR SIBEKO Yes, it is S.B. Mayisela. ADV GCABASHE I have Sammy as providing transport for SDU members, then I have Tshabalala and Nyakama as collecting money from the community, that distinction, if it is important at all? MR SIBEKO I think it is, because other than collecting money, he also supplied transport, yes. CHAIRPERSON So are you taking these three together? MR SIBEKO That is correct so Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON You say they were the collectors? MS Sealey They collected money from the community for the purposes of purchasing arms and ammunitions and then, yes, collecting money for arms and ammunitions. We also had Mr Efrahim Mzondo. CHAIRPERSON That is 7354? MR SIBEKO Yes, it is 7354/97. He told us about his attendance during meetings, discussing the attack at Mr Mavuso's house. His presence in the said attack, the keeping of the AK47's belonging to the members of the SDU's of his street where he stayed. ADV SANDI How many AK47's, my note says three? MR SIBEKO If I am not mistaken, he said three. He also told us about his involvement at Buthelezi Street where they chased the IFP out of the area, occupied by their supporters, that is the ANC supporters or the members of the community. Before I proceed, I would like to point out that my notes might not be conclusive, it may not contain everything so I would request that if there is something that I leave out, it should also be taken into consideration. ADV SANDI Have you mentioned Penduka incident, his involvement at Penduka? MR SIBEKO In the application of Efrahim Mzondo. ADV SANDI Mzwandile Efrahim Mzondo? MR SIBEKO I don't have such an incident in my notes, but if it is there, then it is possible that he might have taken part. CHAIRPERSON I think he seems to have said that Buthelezi and Penduka is the same incident, from the note that I made here, when Adv Sandi was asking questions. ADV SANDI Sorry Mr Sibeko, I just get very confused about the names. Penduka and Buthelezi, just refresh my memory, is that the same place, the same incident? MR SIBEKO It is the same incident, Penduka and Buthelezi, the same incident yes. Penduka and Buthelezi is the same incident. Then we had the application of Patrick Radebe, 7171, that is correct. My notes indicate that he was involved in the death of Mbuso as a result of the slogan "the killer must be killed." I don't have any other incidents. Then we had the application of Mr Lucky Sokho, 7142/97. My notes indicate that he was involved in the incident at Mshayazafe where the journalist died, and his involvement with the death of Mbuso at Nqaba Street, at the (indistinct) at Nqaba Street. ADV GCABASHE There he says that he assaulted Mbuso before they took him to the office, so strictly speaking, unless he knew if that is really the implication, if he knew that the man was going to be killed, then maybe. I had him down for assault rather than for the killing. I don't know if you want to deal with that as one incident or separate incidents? Should it be an assault or should it be the killing, the murder? MR SIBEKO For safety sake, I would request that it would be included for both. ADV SANDI What about his participation in the barricading and patrolling in the streets? MR SIBEKO He was also involved in the barricades and patrols. ADV SANDI Would you include illegal possession of firearms? MR SIBEKO That would also include the possession. Then we had the application of Dan Radebe, Danny Radebe, it is 7173/97. He was involved in the death of Mbuso and he participated in the patrols and barricades. That is all that I have in my notes. ADV SANDI Maybe possession also? MR SIBEKO That would also include possession, thank you. Then we had the application of Bongani Victor Radebe, it is 7174/97. He only kept arms, illegal firearms at his place of residence. ADV GCABASHE And issued them? MR SIBEKO And issued those arms. He also associated himself with the acts of his fellow SDU members. Then we had the application of Mr Carlson Dlamini, 7236/97. He was involved in the burning of Mr Mavuso's house. ADV GCABASHE Mr Sibeko, this burning of Mr Mavuso's house, my first note said Mr Mavuso's landlady's house, two pages later it said the same applicant, Mr Mavuso's house. So you are saying it is in fact Mr Mavuso's house, and not his landlady's house? MR SIBEKO It is Mr Mavuso's house. He was also involved in the incident at Mshayazafe and the incident at Buthelezi Street. That would also include possession of unlawful firearms and all the incidental acts. Then we had the application of Mr Fanekaya Marhinqi, 7442/97, purchase of unlawful firearms. Possession thereof and the incident at Buthelezi Street. Then we had the application of Aaron Ngwenya, 7300/97. He kept firearms that belonged to the SDU's of his street. He unlawfully supplied shelter to other people in houses belonging to the IFP members and other people who left the area as a result of violence. He also testified he supplied food. Then we had the application of Mr Themba Khumalo. ADV GCABASHE Just one minute before you move on to that. Aaron Ngwenya also says that he stored the firearm that killed Mr Mazibuko and though he didn't know who the target was, he knew that the chaps were going out to kill somebody? So it might be advisable to cover him for that Mazibuko killing as well. MR SIBEKO I beg leave that that also be included. Then we have the application of Mr Themba Khumalo, 7660/97. He said that he supplied food and shelter as Mr Ngwenya did. That is all that I have in my notes as far as Mr Khumalo is concerned. Then we heard the application of Mr Edgar Mhlope, 7343/97. Mr Mhlope was involved at the incident at Mgifani Street, the school called Mkatizwe. The name of the school in Mgifani Street is Mkatizwe. He also made mention of his involvement in the incident at Buthelezi Street. ADV GCABASHE Hold on just for completeness, before you get to Buthelezi Street. Mgifani Street, that was the burning of three shacks and the shooting at that chap who got away? MR SIBEKO That is correct so. It will be attempted murder and arson or it might be unlawful possession of course. Then we had the application of Mr Alpheus Maseko, 7085/97. My notes indicate that his application is the same as that of Mr Edgar Mhlope. I don't have any other thing for him. ADV GCABASHE Can we just quickly go back to Mr Edgar Mhlope. I also have him down for Buthelezi Street? MR SIBEKO Yes, I've got only Buthelezi Street incident here, that is Buthelezi Street and Mgifani Street for Edgar Mhlope. ADV GCABASHE Maseko is Mgifani Street and the attempted killing of one Mr Mdaga at Cartwright in Everest is what I have here. MR SIBEKO I would request that that also be noted. Then we had the application of Mr Sipho Stephan Ngubane, 7295/97. In 1990 he was involved in a fight with Mr Khumalo, so he was in possession of a firearm and he also exchanged some shots with Mr Khumalo in 1992. ADV GCABASHE Exchanging fire with Khumalo's son? MR SIBEKO That is correct so. In 1992 he went to Bushe Buzile high school where he pointed his AK47 at Oscar. It will be unlawful possession and pointing. He was present at the second attempt at bombing Mr Khumalo's house. ADV GCABASHE Is that 1991? MR SIBEKO I don't have the date here, but all that I have is that he was there when the house was burnt down. He told us about his involvement at Mshayazafe in 1994 if I am not mistaken, his involvement with Leratho on the new year's day of 1994, the attack of IFP members at Dube Street, I am not sure of the date here, attack on the white E20 minibus in 1994, attack on Mr Khumalo's taxi at Ngagi Street, I am not sure of the dates. ADV GCABASHE Are you sure you are not repeating the very first incident. MR SIBEKO The E20 and Mr Khumalo's taxi? ADV GCABASHE No the very first one when the son was involved, you know, when they were still looking for Mugabi, those very early days. Are these two separate incidents? MR SIBEKO I would request that they be treated as two separate incidents, because I am not sure of the facts, because a lot was said by Mr Ngubane, such that I think that even this list is not conclusive. ADV SANDI My recollection is that those were two separate incidents. Mr Khumalo, the father, was the first to come with that group, then later, a day or two later, it was the son with some other group. I think the son was Monwabisa. Maybe that can be treated as two separate incidents. MR SIBEKO Thank you. And there could be more incidents that I haven't mentioned, because a lot was said by Mr Ngubane. We had the application of Mr Eric Mhlauli, 7344/97. He testified on his involvement in the bombing of Mr Khumalo's house, his collaboration with Mr Khumalo early, before 1993 when they were hunting down Mugabi. It involved the carrying of firearms and ammunition. ADV GCABASHE But surely, are you saying that that would fall within the same framework of a political motive, objective? I am asking, you can argue that point. You are talking of the pre-SDU days, you are talking of a period when you had criminal activity gangs, how do you then fit this particular incident you are squeezing in, into that general framework we have accepted, that you set out earlier, you know of political problems, political unrest? MR SIBEKO I would fit it in by saying that already by that time, the existence of elements such as Mugabi, cultivated or brought about a conducive situation for the attacks in the communities. I would request that the said activities, unless you have been undertaken by Mugabi, be treated as one and the same thing as the activities as the gangsters. The idea was to root out the criminal elements in the community because by that time, there were patrols and barricades, there is evidence to that effect that as early as 1990, people were already patrolling and barricading, so I would request that this incident should also be treated as one with the incidents that I have just referred to. Then Mr Mhlauli told us about his involvement in Katlehong where there was a feud between the residents or the community members of Katlehong and the inmates of Buyafuthi hostel if I am not mistaken. He testified that in that incident, he had fired a lot, as a result of which a lot of people may have been injured or may have died. He also told us about his involvement in the incident at Mshayazafe, his involvement at Buthelezi and when Mr Khumalo's house was attacked, he also told us that the Security personnel which were outside, were shot at, so I would assume that it i also an isolated incident, although it is one and the same thing with the attack or the burning of the house. Then we had the application of Mr Vuzmus Mabizela. ADV SANDI Sorry Mr Sibeko, before you finish with Mr Mhlauli, I thought he said he had opened fire on a police truck? Remember the story about the braai, they were standing there and having some meat and a truck came, they didn't open fire the first time it came, but the second time it came back, he opened fire and the police ran away and abandoned the truck and I think he also says they burnt that truck, it was destroyed? MR SIBEKO That incident is the same as the one of Buyafuthi, if I am not mistaken, where he said he was later requested by certain members of the community to bring along his comrades, with whom he worked at Tokoza. ADV SANDI He referred to a Civic leader whose name he did not know. MR SIBEKO It is correct, it is in the same incident, and I would request that it would also be included. ADV GCABASHE I also had a question mark, the shooting of the police truck and the exchange of fire, I had it as Mazibuko hostel, but I will take your word for it that it is Buyafuthi. It is exchange of fire with Buyafuthi inmates? You say that is one incident, not two in 1992? MR SIBEKO No, it is one incident and it is possible that it is Mazibuko hostel, because I am not sure of the names of the hostels at Katlehong, it could be Mazibuko. ADV SANDI Yes, that was Mazibuko hostel. ADV GCABASHE Were you now moving on to the next applicant, because I have for Mr Mhlauli the burning of Mr Vilakazi's motor vehicle, remember when his goods were packed into it and there was a chap who was found in the toilet, he was left and there was another one who was helping Vilakazi move and he was left as well and what was eventually burnt, was just Vilakazi's motor vehicle that had all his goods inside. MR SIBEKO It is true, I was about to refer to that incident. ADV SANDI Seluma Section, would that be in Katlehong? MR SIBEKO It is the Section in Katlehong. ADV GCABASHE But it is in the Mazibuko incident, it is the Mazibuko incident? There is also, I don't want to preempt you, you may want to go through, I've got a couple more. MR SIBEKO That will actually save time. ADV GCABASHE I was actually going to go back to attacking Mr Khumalo's taxi. I don't think you have mentioned it here, you know when they had the two girls act as a decoy and they shot at the taxi. That is the same time when the son was driving, he was involved there as well I have it? ADV SANDI Yes, I also have it. MR SIBEKO I have it as Mazibuko's kombi. It is Khumalo's kombi in fact and there is also an incident at Mdagani Street, Penduka, in 1994. ADV GCABASHE What happened there, was - at Mdagani Street? People shot or houses destroyed, what happened? MR SIBEKO There was exchange of fire between the SDU's and the IFP. ADV GCABASHE Then you also have the burning of a section of Mazibuko hostel in 1993. I had that as a separate incident to the previous one, or was it again that one incident, the one, I will just call it the Buyafuthi to identify it quickly, is it that one incident? Is this where the hostel was burnt as well, was it one incident? MR SIBEKO It is one incident. ADV SANDI Are you still on Mhlauli, did you mention Mshayazafe? MR SIBEKO No, we are actually dealing with Mabizela, but I mentioned Mshayazafe, I am sorry, we are still with Mhlauli. Yes, we have got Mshayazafe in 1994. That is about all for Mhlauli. ADV GCABASHE In fact, it isn't. In 1990, there is Mshayazafe incident, let's just put it down, trust me, there is in 1990 a Mshayazafe incident. MR SIBEKO Then I would request that it be also added. ADV SANDI The burning of Mazibuko hostel, I am making sure that you mentioned it? MR SIBEKO We have also mentioned that. CHAIRPERSON All right, who is next? MR SIBEKO Vuzmus Mabizela, 7762/97. He was involved in the attack of Mr Khumalo's kombi. He was also present at Buthelezi. He was also there at Mshayazafe in 1994, and he was also present in 1994 in Penduka Section, in Mdagani Street. ADV GCABASHE In 1990? MR SIBEKO In 1994. That is about all, but it includes unlawful possession and all the incidental offences. The next one is Mr Samuel Khoza, 7661/97. He was present at Mshayazafe, he also told us about the attack on two IFP members where he petrol bombed one and the other one, was chased, caught, assaulted and set on fire. He also told us about the person whom they chased, who had been delivered by a police vehicle. They chased that person, they caught him and they shot him. I am not sure whether he was involved at Buyafuthi or Mazibuko, one of the hostels in Katlehong. ADV SANDI Sorry Mr Sibeko, before you proceed. In that instance where he was talking about two IFP ... (tape ends) ... happened to the first one, and he was not sure, but he suspected that the first one must have been killed by the crowd, he was concentrating, he was focusing on the second one, that is the one he was chasing and he caught and was killed. Should you not include in the circumstances, the first one as well? MR SIBEKO I would request that we put both attacks on the said IFP members in his application, because I was also not sure about his involvement in the first one, but he was there, he was also carrying petrol bombs. That is all that I have for Mr Khoza. Then it is Mr Eddie Khambule, 7736/97. He testified about his involvement in the Mazibuko incident, Mazibuko Street, Mshayazafe in 1994, his involvement in Buthelezi Street, barricades and patrols. That is all that I have for Mr Khambule. Then we had the application of Mr Leratho Nteo, 7278/97. He told us about the man who was pelted with stones and set on fire at the soccer field at Radebe. His presence at the hunting down of Oscar in 1992 at Bushe Buzile, Oscar from the Khumalo gang, his involvement in the mutiny act, Mandela Section in 1993, new year's day 1994 incident where he was with Mr Ngubane, his involvement in the exchange of fire with the IFP members, at Tentwa Section, Tswaragana Lower Primary School, he also told us about his involvement in the raid at Dube Street where the IFP members or where the houses were raided which they thought were occupied by IFP members, for arms. He was also involved in patrols and barricades. That is all that I have for Mr Nteo. We had the application of Jimmy Mpele, 7128/97. In 1991 he was an active member of COSAS, which led to the attack on Zero who happened to be a member of the Bad Boys, the Bad Boys gangsters, his involvement in the incident that occurred at Everest where the said gangsters killed about five members of the same family after robbing them of their cash, his presence when one of the gang members who at the time stayed in Unit F, was hunted down although they couldn't find him. That was the day when he said he was arrested for the possession of AK47's. He has also sought amnesty for perjury that followed thereafter. He is released from jail. That was all for Mr Mpele. Then we heard the applications from Polla Park, that will be the batch from Lusaka B. Mr Simon Ngwengwa, who applied for amnesty for inciting people to stand up and fight. That is all that I have for mr Ngwengwa. Then we had Mr Davis Ndwangu, 7055/97, who was the then Commander, who issued instructions. Although he was not directly involved, he never fired any shot, but he identified himself with the activities of his soldiers. He also told us about the pistol that he possessed unlawfully. That is all that I have for Mr Ndwangu. ADV GCABASHE He also purchased arms? He was the link, wasn't he? He got arms from the people who sold them for money, he went in this whole story about the financial side of things and their own perspective. MR SIBEKO It is correct so, and I request that that also be included. Then we had the application of Mr Doctor Nkonyane, 7267/97. ADV GCABASHE Sorry again, Ndwangu was involved in that major battle where he said those things were thrown at them, I thought either petrol bombs or bombs, so there was killing in that. He was involved in that major battle with the adjacent hostel dwellers? That too? MR SIBEKO That is correct so. Then the application of Doctor Nkonyane, 7267/97. He was responsible for the money which was used to purchase arms and ammunition. That is all for Mr Nkonyane's application. Then we had the application of Buli Gumbi, 7577/97. He was involved in the patrols and barricades. He was involved in the death of Mr Matibula, who was the IFP member in 1993. Then we had the application of Mr Vusi Sibiya, 7148/97. He was involved in the patrols and barricades. He was present when house number 1285, Gamedi Street was set alight. We had the application of Oscar Msibi, 7373/97. He was also involved in the patrols and barricades, and he was also present in the attack of Mr Skakane's house. That was all in Mr Msibi's application. That concludes my applications. I beg leave to be excused so that Ms (indistinct) may take over. CHAIRPERSON Good, thank you Mr Sibeko. Who will take over? MS NHLAYISI IN ARGUMENT I am taking over. Thank you Mr Chairperson. I would request not to repeat the opening address that was given by my learned colleague, Mr Sibeko. However, I wish also to point out that all the applicants I submit, have met the requirements of the Act in that they have disclosed and that their actions were politically motivated and that they were acting on instructions of their Commander. In all the instances, there were no personal gain. Then I will move on to the various applicants, and mention the specific incidents in which they were involved. The first applicant will be Jeremia Velapi Mazibuko, application number 7020/97. He was involved in 1993 in an incident at house 1251, Mhlongu Street, where one Mazibuko was killed. He was also involved in patrols and barricades. ADV GCABASHE Just to get this right, Mhlongu Street, three were killed and one was injured? Mhlongu Street, 1251 Mhlongu Street. It is not, I just want to bring it to your attention. MS NHLAYISI Are you not confusing it with the incident at 1248 Mgifani Street? ADV GCABASHE It is possible, help me if I am. MS NHLAYISI In the incident at 1251 Mhlongu, it is only where a guy only known to him as Mazibuko, it is this incident that took place at Sibusiso Coka's house. Are we talking about the same incident? ADV GCABASHE Sorry, 1248 Mgifani Street, it is the Mlalosi family that got killed, again Coka. I beg your pardon, that is an application by Coka, that is where I got that information from. MS NHLAYISI He testified about this incident that he was at this house with one Siphiwe Stambu Musi, remember, and he had a hammer, Stambu had an AK47. They knocked, Mazibuko opened the door and Stambu shot and he gave the firearm to Siphiwe, who fired a shot and then the firearm was in turn given to Musi, who fired a shot and then they ran away. ADV GCABASHE In fact, the information as to who was killed and what the nature of the injuries were, we got from the Leader of Evidence, that is who detailed the people who were killed at that house. MS NHLAYISI I remember that is the incident that caused confusion on that particular day, and we had to refer to the incident mentioned by Sibusiso Coka. However, I would request that the application cover him for all the deaths that allegedly occurred on that particular day. CHAIRPERSON What is the next one? MS NHLAYISI The next applicant is Patrick Mpekaleli Zikhali, application number 7313/97. He applied for amnesty for an incident which involved one Mapotrus, where Mapotrus was shot at house 1298 Mbele Street. He was only injured in this incident, and the next day, he was stoned at Mbele Street and at a later stage, he died. ADV GCABASHE I am sorry, can you just repeat the first house number was 1291? MS NHLAYISI It is house number 1298. Another incident in 1993, which involved this man from Inkandla, the man they found walking in the street looking for kwaZihne industrial area. He testified that he was involved in stoning that person, and he poured petrol over him and somebody else torched him, and that particular person died also. He was also responsible for supplying food at the bases and he was involved in barricades and patrols. The next applicant will be Sibusiso Patrick Coka, application number 7059/97. His application is for an incident which occurred in 1993 when a house at 1248 Mgifani Street was attacked. Information that he got was that from that attack, two people died. That is Anna Mahlalosi and Duku Mahlalosi. He asks amnesty for those two murders and again in 1993, for possession of unlicensed firearm and ammunition. He was also involved in patrols and barricades. The next applicant is Wilfred Tabu Miya, application number 7341/97. His application is for an incident in 1993 at Mbele Street, where a person was pelted with stones, and he later died. He was also involved in the incident ... ADV GCABASHE Before you go on, it is the same incident as the one that Patrick Zikhali was involved in? MS NHLAYISI That is correct. He was also involved in the incident involving the person from Inkandla that has been mentioned with the previous applicant. However, he mentioned that he was only involved in the initial stages before he was stoned and necklaced. However, I wish to request that his application also covers him for the death of this particular person. He also mentioned that at some stage in 1993, he was in possession of a revolver, a 38 Special and ammunition. He used to supply for food at the bases. That concludes his application. The next applicant is Cyril Nhlondlo Bongani Khumalo, application number 7658/97. He was also involved in the incident that involved the person from Inkandla as mentioned by the two previous applicants. He was involved in the incident at Mbele Street, where the person mentioned by the other applicant as Mapotrus was killed. In 1994 he was involved in the incident at Mshayazafe, he mentioned that he did fire shots at this incident, though he cannot account for any deaths or injuries, it is possible that people were injured or killed in this incident. He also applies for his possession of an unlicensed firearm. He mentioned that he was in possession of a 9 mm pistol. The next applicant is Sakhe Sakhile Maseko, application number 7084/97. He is applying for amnesty for the incident in 1993 at Buthelezi Street, where a shooting happened between the members of the Self Protection Unit affiliated to the IFP. He mentioned that he had an AK47. He cannot say whether in this incident, anybody was injured or anybody died. He is applying for amnesty for possession of unlicensed firearm and ammunition. ADV SANDI But Ms Nhlayisi, is he, this applicant, given the facts as you have just outlined them, is he not by implication applying for any murder or attempted murder of any person who may have been killed in that situation? MS NHLAYISI That is correct, though he doesn't know, he cannot specifically who were killed or injured in that incident. If there are any people who were injured or killed in this particular incident, he would like to be granted amnesty for that also. The last applicant is Abongwani Ndama, application number 7050/97. He is bringing an application for having taken part in buying AK47 and ammunition from Polla Park and possession of unlicensed firearm and ammunition. That concludes my list Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Ms Nhlayisi. MS NHLAYISI I wish to be excused. My colleague Mr Mopedi will take over. CHAIRPERSON You are excused, thank you very much for your assistance. Mr Mopedi, last but not least. MR MOPEDI IN ARGUMENT Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, Mr Sibeko has already sketched the background and the circumstances surrounding this application sir, and I am not going to repeat it Mr Chairman. Further I beg leave Mr Chairman, that whatever is said about the background surrounding this application, be also made applicable to this applications that I am going to talk about now Mr Chairman. Without any further ado Mr Chairman, I will start with the following applicant. The first one is Siphiwe Godfrey Ndlovu, 7075/97 and Aubrey Mahlema Maile, 7694/97 and Tulani Richard Mbatha, 7368/97. Mr Chairman, I request that this three applications should be grouped together, since they relate to the same incident. I may further add by saying that they were (indistinct) not allowed to make use of the firearms at that stage, and they were also not involved in any killing or injuring of people, but however, they assisted by cleaning the firearms with the full knowledge that the firearms, that is the AK47 which they were cleaning Mr Chairman, would be used illegally since the weapons themselves were illegal, to fight and to kill members of the IFP. Further they also acted as lookouts to ensure that when weapons were being moved from one place to another, it was safe. They were also involved in taking the bullets to the SDU members and to look further, if an attack was to be launched, whether it was safe to do so. The next applicant is Potung Fanyana Nhlapho, 7302/97. Mr Chairman, this applicant was involved in Mazibuko Street where they were called by Bonga, Commander of that section, to come and assist. As they were arriving there, shots were fired and they returned fire. During this incident he was together with James Masoka. The second incident is the one at Mshayazafe, that was in 1994. This is the incident where a journalist was killed. He has testified that even this incident, he had an AK47, shots were fired and he also returned shots, they also returned fire. Mzikhasi Tshabalala was together with him during this incident. The further incident that he testified about Mr Chairman, relate to Buthelezi. According to my notes here Mr Chairman, I have Tambo Slovo and IFP members were trying to cross the street, they were trying to cross Buthelezi street and he was also involved in a fighting here. He had an AK47. He also referred to a man who was also wearing a coat, that he fired to him, but according to him, he was not sure whether the man was injured or not because - but what he noticed was that despite the shots which they were firing, this man did not appear to be injured, but he is not quite sure. Further Mr Chairman, he was also involved in patrolling. That is where they were actually disarming the people whom they found with weapons and hand over the weapons to the Commander. The next application Mr Chairman, is that of Mzikayise Tshabalala, that is 7734/97. According to his testimony Mr Chairman, he was involved in Penduka incident. They received a message, he was not quite sure Mr Chairman, but apparently from Mbele or Bla or (indistinct), and he had an AK47, shots were fired, members of ISU arrived and they retreated. The next incident relates to Mazibuko Street. This Mr Chairman, it was in 1993 and this is the incident of where he was involved with Potung Fanyana Nhlapho, as I have indicated earlier Mr Chairman. He was also involved in Mshayazafe incident in 1994, that was just before the elections Mr Chairman and he was also involved with Fanyana Nhlapho during this incident, this is where the incident was killed Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, the next applicant is James Somphele Masonka, application number 7086/97. According to his testimony Mr Chairman, or even before I come to this applicant, Mzikayise Tshabalala was also involved in patrolling Mr Chairman. James Masonka was also present at Penduka during the incident at Penduka and Mazibuko and Mshayazafe, he was also - Potung Fanyana Nhlapho, and he had an AK47 which he used. He was also patrolling, involved in the patrolling Mr Chairman. The next application Mr Chairman, is that of Tulani Mahlangu, application number 7646/97. According to his testimony Mr Chairman, Tulani Mahlangu was involved in Mokwayi Street incident and he was with (indistinct) and this is the incident where Levisa, whom they suspected to be an informer was shot at. He was also involved there, but however, the person who eventually actually shot at Levisa, was Monwabisa. He was also involved in Penduka incident, Mazibuko incident and during these two incidents, he had an AK47 in his possession. He was also patrolling, involved in the patrolling, disarming or confiscating illegal weapons from the people in the streets. The next application Mr Chairman, is that of Siphiwe Madondo. He was involved in the following incidents Mr Chairman, the first being when they found a man who was apparently coming from Natal, walking along the street and he was on his way apparently to his brothers, to kwaZihne hostel. They pretended to take this person to the hostel, but eventually they killed him. They knew that they were not actually taking him to kwaZihne hostel. His involvement there was to throw a brick at this person, and this person was eventually killed. The second incident relates to a coffin that he pulled out of a hearse. In this coffin apparently it was a Commander of IFP and he pulled out the coffin and the coffin was set alight but however, he was not involved in setting it alight. He only pulled it out and he did not carry a firearm or any AK47, since he has made it clear that he was a coward and those who were not brave enough, were not given firearms. Mr Chairman, the next application is that of Johannes Amos Methula. That is application 7405/97. According to his testimony, he was involved in the Mgifani Street incident. Stambu Mzwakhe Mamba had actually lost his mother and they had gone to the funeral and they requested him to remain behind to look after the area. As he was looking at the area, he saw IFP members coming and people were fleeing in all directions. The houses were burning and at that stage he went to fetch a firearm, AK47 and shot at these members of the IFP. He was also involved in the patrolling decision. The next application Mr Chairman, is that of Alpheus Vusimuzi Twala, application number 7732/97. Mr Chairman, according to the testimony of the applicant, he was involved in Buthelezi Street, in Penduka. He was together with Gaza Mhlope and others. He was given an AK47 which he used and it was taken from him after he had used it on that particular day Mr Chairman. He was also patrolling according to his testimony Mr Chairman. The next applicant Mr Chairperson, is Johannes Dingane Nkosi, application number 7960/97. Mr Chairperson, according to the applicant he was involved in the Gamedi Street incident. He was together with the Commander, Makosonki, who had a firearm. Here, this is the place where they actually wanted to burn a shack, but most unfortunately the house also caught fire. Apparently the house belonged to a member of the Inkatha Freedom Party, who ultimately left the area. He has further testified that he was also involved in the taxi warfare, that is the fight that was between CATO and GND, and here according to his testimony Mr Chairman, he was given a firearm by his friend, Themba that he used to fire at the members of GND. According to his testimony Mr Chairman, the fight itself effected the whole community because it even effected, it has even effected the community of Tokoza, although initially it started at Katlehong, (indistinct) He has also made mention of the name of Cebekhulu, who was a member of the IFP, and there were also taxi's that actually came there to the school, that surrounded the school and they were attacked. They had to return fire. He has also indicated that he was involved in patrolling. Mr Chairman, the next applicant is that of Monwabisa Mhambi. The applicant Mr Chairman, was involved in the following incidents. The first one being the incident at Mokwayi Street. As I have indicated earlier that he was with others and he was actually the one who shot Levisa. He was also involved in the incident, the Dube incident where they also attacked a taxi and he was with Siphiwe Ndlovu and he had an AK47. The other incident is at Mshayazafe hostel, that is the incident that I have referred to earlier, where a journalist was killed, and he had an AK47. Further he has indicated that before the whole if I may call it a system, was reorganised, that is for the community defending itself, was reorganised, he was also a Commander of the street in which he lived. It is only after that whole system was reorganised and reshuffled, that he has lost that position. Further, he was also involved in the patrolling Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, the next application is that of Siphiwe Ndlovu. It is application 7074/97. He has testified Mr Chairman, that he was involved in Khumalo Street incident, where a taxi was shot. The taxi that was shot, was actually transporting members from the IFP from an IFP rally and he had an R4 rifle and they attacked that taxi. He was also involved in Dube Street incident Mr Chairman as I have referred, and was also involved in patrolling. Mr Chairman, the next application is that of Bekumusi Immanuel Tshabalala, application number 7735/97. According to Immanuel Tshabalala Mr Chairman, he was involved in the following incident, it is Penduka, Mazibuko and Mshayazafe and in all these incidents, he was armed and he was firing some shots. He was with Tulani Mahlangu, Monwabisa Mhambi as well. He was also involved in patrolling. Mr Chairman, the last application that I have here is that of Goodman Mondle Motaung. He was involved in the Dube incident where he had a firearm, an AK47. He was also involved in Mshayazafe incident, but however, during the first incident, he did not have a firearm with him. He was also patrolling Mr Chairman, disarming people with illegal weapons. Basically this is all that I have Mr Chairman, thank you Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much Mr Mopedi, for your assistance. Adv Steenkamp, any argument? ADV STEENKAMP No argument Mr Chairman, unless there is something else that you would like me to address. NO ARGUMENT BY ADV STEENKAMP CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much. Well, that concludes the session here. As is quite apparent, the panel has to decide a whole mass of applications and facts and circumstances and so forth, with the result that we would need time to consider the applications and consider the evidence and consider the arguments that were addressed to us, before we would be in a position to make a decision on these applications. In the circumstances, the panel will reserve its decision in these matters and will notify the legal representatives of the parties as soon as the decision has been made, and is available for release. It only remains for us to express our thanks to all those people who have assisted us in conducting these hearings. As usual, it takes a great deal of organisation and effort and hard work on the part of many, many people to be able to have a public hearing, and particularly one as extensive as this one, and drawn out over a considerable period of time. A particular word of thanks to our staff, Interpreters, the logistical people, our Leader of Evidence, Adv Steenkamp for the assistance that they have given to us. We would also like to thank the legal representatives of the parties, who have been particularly helpful and of great assistance to us in dealing with these matters, which concern a whole complex set of facts. We thank you for the way in which you have conducted your clients' matters and represented their interests in these proceedings. We also need to thank those people who are responsible for the security at these proceedings, as well as the people in charge of the venue here, for their assistance. And then finally to my colleagues on the panel with me, for their particular assistance in dealing with these matters. We will at this stage adjourn the proceedings, and reserve the decision in respect of all those matters which have been dealt with in argument this afternoon. We are adjourned. HEARING ADJOURNS