amntrans AMNESTY HEARING 1998-11-24 DURBAN 1 PALELA BEKHISENZO HLONGWA SELF DEFENCE UNITS https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53060&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1998/9811241202_dbn_981124db.htm ON RESUMPTION CHAIRPERSON ... the lunch adjournment, we have just concluded with the testimony of Mr Msani. Mr Ngubane? MR NGUBANE Thank you Mr Chairman, may I call Fanie Simpiwe Mbutho please. CHAIRPERSON Page 57, I think? Mr Mbutho, can you put on your earphones please. MR NGUBANE Sorry Mr Chairman, I made an error here, in fact, it is supposed to be Hlongwa who is the next applicant. CHAIRPERSON Is Mr Hlongwa sitting next to you? PALELA BEKHISENZO HLONGWA (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Thank you, you may be seated. EXAMINATION BY MR NGUBANE Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Hlongwa, you are also the applicant here, and you are applying for amnesty, is that correct? MR HLONGWA Yes. MR NGUBANE Were you born in Umkomaas on the 7th of July 1972? MR HLONGWA Yes. MR NGUBANE And you grew up there until the time of your arrest, is that correct? MR HLONGWA Yes. MR NGUBANE Did you attend school? MR HLONGWA Yes. MR NGUBANE What level of education did you attend? MR HLONGWA Standard 4. MR NGUBANE Can you recall when that was? MR HLONGWA That was in 1990. MR NGUBANE The year when you attained standard 4, I don't mean the date of your arrest, can you recall or can't you recall? MR HLONGWA Yes, 1990. MR NGUBANE What school did you attend? MR HLONGWA I last attended school at Macubeni school, but I went to two different schools. MR NGUBANE Yes, the first school that you attended, can you recall what year that was? MR HLONGWA I last attended that school in 1989. MR NGUBANE What school was that? MR HLONGWA Opakheni. MR NGUBANE Were you at any stage involved with any political organisation or party? MR HLONGWA Yes. MR NGUBANE Can you recall when it was approximately? MR HLONGWA In 1985. MR NGUBANE What political organisation did you participate in in 1985? MR HLONGWA The United Democratic Front, UDF. MR NGUBANE Did you hold any position in the organisation at that stage or at a subsequent stage? MR HLONGWA No. MR NGUBANE You were just an ordinary member, is that correct? MR HLONGWA Yes. MR NGUBANE In 1985, we have heard that there was a fight between the UDF and the Inkatha Freedom Party, do you confirm that? MR HLONGWA Yes. MR NGUBANE And Mr Sixtus Fana Mkhize was a member of Inkatha and he was a prominent member, the organiser and he participated with the police in the attack on the UDF, do you confirm that? MR HLONGWA Yes. MR NGUBANE You have heard the evidence of Nicholas Msani, regarding the activities of Mr Mkhize during the period 1985 to 1990. Do you consider Mr Msani's evidence as being true and correct in all respects? MR HLONGWA Yes, it is the truth. MR NGUBANE Do you specifically confirm that Mr Fana Mkhize, the deceased, participated in the killing of the people and the destruction of property, the people that belonged to the UDF? MR HLONGWA Yes. MR NGUBANE In 1990 you heard that there were SDU's formed, Self Defence Units formed. Are you aware of the formation of the SDU's? MR HLONGWA Yes. MR NGUBANE Were you at any stage a member of the SDU's? MR HLONGWA Yes. MR NGUBANE Was it in 1990 that you became a member? MR HLONGWA Yes. MR NGUBANE We have heard that the purpose of the SDU was to protect the society because the UDF people could not protect, could not be protected by the police, the police participated with the attack, with the IFP, is that correct? MR HLONGWA That is correct. MR NGUBANE Mr Msani has given evidence that at some stage there was a decision taken to eliminate the deceased, Mr Mkhize. Are you aware of that decision? MR HLONGWA Yes. MR NGUBANE And he also gave evidence that attempts were made on Mr Mkhize's life on several occasions, were you part of those attempts to eliminate Mr Mkhize? MR HLONGWA Yes. MR NGUBANE In 1990, the 7th of November, we have heard that Mr Mkhize was attacked and you were part of the group that attacked Mr Mkhize. Was that evidence correct? MR HLONGWA Yes, it is the truth. MR NGUBANE We have heard that you and the other applicants attacked him. What was your role, you specifically when Mr Mkhize was attacked? MR HLONGWA I shot at him. MR NGUBANE With what did you shoot him? MR HLONGWA A gun. MR NGUBANE A factory made firearm or was it a home made firearm? MR HLONGWA A home made gun. MR NGUBANE Where did you get that gun from? MR HLONGWA I got it from Fanie, Mr Mbutho. MR NGUBANE That is the gentleman that is the third applicant, the one that is going to testify after you, is that correct? MR HLONGWA Yes. MR NGUBANE When you shot at the deceased, can you recall how many shots you fired at him? MR HLONGWA Yes, I do. MR NGUBANE How many? MR HLONGWA Once. MR NGUBANE Where about on his body if you can recall? MR HLONGWA It was on the back although I cannot point out specifically where, because he was already injured when I shot at him. MR NGUBANE But when you shot at him, is it correct that he was still alive? MR HLONGWA Yes, he was still alive. MR NGUBANE Did you inflict any further injuries on the deceased on that very same day? MR HLONGWA No, that was the first instance. MR NGUBANE Yes, after you had shot him, did you assault him further in any manner? MR HLONGWA No. MR NGUBANE After you had shot him and after he had been hacked, what happened? MR HLONGWA We fled the area because police approached and IFP members as well, so we fled and we hid in the forest. MR NGUBANE I see. When you did that, Mr Msani has given evidence that he believed that he was acting within the realm of the call of the ANC, do you also confirm that? MR HLONGWA Yes. MR NGUBANE Did you hope that once Mr Mkhize had been eliminated, there would be, the violence that was perpetrated against the UDF, would subside? MR HLONGWA Yes, I thought so because he was one of the people who troubled us a lot in the area. Therefore I thought that if he could be removed, we would be able to work progressively, because he was one of the people who actually wanted to prevent us from conducting our political work. MR NGUBANE Is it correct that as you are sitting here, you have been convicted to undergo a period of imprisonment of 20 years? MR HLONGWA Yes. MR NGUBANE And you were convicted by the Supreme Court of South Africa in 1992? MR HLONGWA Yes. MR NGUBANE Did you hear when a portion of what the Judge said in the High Court, was read out to Mr Msani that there was hostility between the ANC and the Inkatha Freedom Party and that that led to hostility created in you against the deceased and inter alia that that hostility might have influenced you to commit this crime, did you hear that? MR HLONGWA Yes. MR NGUBANE Do you confirm that the position sketched out by the Honourable Judge is more or less the true position of what happened? MR HLONGWA Yes. MR NGUBANE You realise that what you did was wrong, against the family and the community of South Africa as such? MR HLONGWA Yes. MR NGUBANE Do you wish to say something about your actions and do you have a message to the family of the deceased? MR HLONGWA Yes. MR NGUBANE Can you say what you wish to say? MR HLONGWA What I wish to say, I wish the Mkhize family was present so that they could hear what I am saying. What I did to them, was wrong and I wish to apologise for that. MR NGUBANE Are you prepared to meet them on a man to man basis and apologise to them? MR HLONGWA Yes, very much. I would appreciate that. MR NGUBANE Have you made any attempts to meet them at any stage? MR HLONGWA Yes. MR NGUBANE Can you tell us what attempts you have made and what the result was of those attempts? MR HLONGWA At Westville prison, I attempted to get into contact with the Mkhize family. It was not easy but I contacted the Welfare section in the prison and they were able to telephone the family. I had once telephoned them myself, but I also asked the Social Worker to telephone the family. The Social Worker did this, and they discussed with the family, although I don't know how I can take our discussions further, but I have made that contact. MR NGUBANE When you made that contact, were you doing that on your behalf and on behalf of the other two applicants? MR HLONGWA Yes. MR NGUBANE Do you feel sorry about what you have done, killing the deceased? MR HLONGWA Yes. MR NGUBANE If you were not involved in politics, would you have killed the deceased? MR HLONGWA No. MR NGUBANE We have heard evidence that when you killed the deceased, the members of his family were also present and did you attempt to kill them at any stage? MR HLONGWA No. MR NGUBANE Okay. Thank you Mr Chairman, I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NGUBANE CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Ngubane. Ms Thabete, do you have any questions to put to the witness? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS THABETE Just a few Mr Chairperson. Mr Hlongwa, can you briefly tell the Committee members, how did you join the SDU and what procedure did you go through when you joined the SDU? MR HLONGWA There were discussions between ANC leaders. It transpired that there were no people who protected the community, because the police could not protect the community, especially people who were ANC aligned. There was an agreement then that people should be chosen to protect the community. We therefore met with those people who had been to that meeting, and we were elected to form this branch or to form this unit. MS THABETE Can you go back a little bit, who elected you? MR HLONGWA Bukela Luthuli, he was the person responsible for that. CHAIRPERSON I think what you mean, you were selected rather than elected. You were chosen or appointed rather than elected? MS THABETE You say Mr Mkhize, the deceased, was responsible for attacking the ANC. Did he used to attack the ANC by himself or were there other people who he usually attacked the ANC with? MR HLONGWA He would be in the company of other people. MS THABETE So following that question, was Mr Mkhize the only person you targeted out of all the people that attacked you? MR HLONGWA No. He is not the only person who was targeted, but he was one of the people whom we had targeted to remove. MS THABETE Just as a matter of interest and for the record, you say you have tried to contact the deceased's next of kin, who did you speak to? CHAIRPERSON You said that you managed yourself to telephone the family. When you yourself telephoned the family, do you know who you spoke to? MR HLONGWA Yes, I do. CHAIRPERSON Who was that? MR HLONGWA At the first instance, I requested to speak to that family's elder boy. I tried a second time, because I wanted to speak to him specifically and I spoke to his mother, and she told me that he no longer resided at home. Therefore I went to the Social Worker and asked them to speak to the mother because I didn't think that she would appreciate talking to me. MS THABETE You say you phoned to speak to the son of the deceased, is that correct? MR HLONGWA Yes. MR LAX Sorry, I understood you to be saying that you spoke to not the son of the deceased, but the son of the family, the oldest son of the family. Can you clarify that please? MR HLONGWA It was Nana, the family's eldest boy. CHAIRPERSON Is that the, who was the eldest boy's father, was that the deceased or the deceased's father? MR HLONGWA Yes, the father is the deceased. CHAIRPERSON The deceased that you killed? MR HLONGWA Yes. MS THABETE Do you know his name? MR HLONGWA Yes, I do. MS THABETE What is his name? MR HLONGWA Fanana Sixtus Mkhize. MS THABETE No, I am referring to the son of Fanana Sixtus Mkhize, the one you wanted to speak to? MR HLONGWA Nanana Mkhize. MS THABETE What did you want to say to him, if I may ask? MR HLONGWA I wanted to request him that if he could maybe come see me in the prison, so that I could talk to him, because I deeply regretted what I had done to their family. I wanted them to meet me so that they could realise that I was indeed very sorry and remorseful about what I had done. MS THABETE Approximately how old would he be, the son of Sixtus, Nanana? MR HLONGWA Although I cannot be certain, he may be about 24, 26. MS THABETE No more questions, Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETE CHAIRPERSON Thank you Ms Thabete. Do you have any re-examination Mr Ngubane? MR NGUBANE No Mr Chairman, thank you. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR NGUBANE CHAIRPERSON Mr Sibanyoni, do you have any questions to ask the witness? MR SIBANYONI Just one question Mr Chairperson. Mr Hlongwa, by the killing of the deceased, Mr Mkhize, what did you people intend to achieve? MR HLONGWA We would not have benefitted much, but we wanted to be able to work freely or progressively in our organisation, because he was one of the people who attacked our organisation, who wished to remove our organisation's members. MR SIBANYONI No further questions Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Mr Lax, do you have any questions to put to the witness? MR LAX No questions, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Hlongwa, that concludes - sorry, Mr Ngubane, do you have any questions arising out of questions put by Mr Sibanyoni? MR NGUBANE No Mr Chairman, thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NGUBANE CHAIRPERSON Ms Thabete? MS THABETE No questions Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETE CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Hlongwa, that concludes your testimony, you may stand down. WITNESS EXCUSED .