amntrans AMNESTY HEARING 1998-11-25 DURBAN 2 XOLANI BRAVEMAN TSOTETSI THEMBI VICTORIA MXQUSO MTHEMBU https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53063&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1998/9811241202_dbn_981125db.htm MR SIPHO Mr Chairman, Xolani Tsotetsi, his application is on page 160 of the papers. His evidence was dealt with on page 241 of the trial record, of the judgement rather. XOLANI BRAVEMAN TSOTETSI (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Sipho? EXAMINATION BY MR SIPHO Thank you. Mr Tsotetsi, how old are you? MR TSOTETSI 28. MR SIPHO During 1991, where did you live? MR TSOTETSI At Nhlalagahle township in Greytown. MR SIPHO Okay, do you know the deceased in this case? MR TSOTETSI Yes, I know her. MR SIPHO What was her name? MR TSOTETSI Mxquso Victoria Mthembu. MR SIPHO Okay, now you are aware that she was killed on the 28th of September 1991. MR TSOTETSI Yes, I am aware. MR SIPHO Did you take part in the killing of the deceased? MR TSOTETSI Yes, I did. MR SIPHO Okay, now on that day, were you travelling along in a kombi in the vicinity of the HLH compound? MR TSOTETSI Yes. MR SIPHO Okay, at about what time was this on that day? MR TSOTETSI About quarter to three in the afternoon. MR SIPHO What did you see as you drove passed the HLH compound? MR TSOTETSI As we drove near there, we saw the deceased inside the compound. MR SIPHO Now, you have heard the evidence of the witness who gave evidence before you. MR TSOTETSI Yes, I did. MR SIPHO Do you agree with the evidence that he gave? MR TSOTETSI Yes, I do. MR SIPHO And you would agree then that the HLH compound was inhabited by members of Inkatha Freedom Party? MR TSOTETSI Yes, I agree. MR SIPHO The members, the people of the township where you lived, were members of the ANC? MR TSOTETSI Yes. MR SIPHO Okay. Was it normal for people from the township to go and visit people at the compound? MR TSOTETSI No, it was not because of the situation in the township. MR SIPHO Okay, how did you feel about having seen the deceased at the compound? MR TSOTETSI I did not feel good about it because I knew her to be one of our members. MR SIPHO Okay. As far as you were concerned, her presence at that compound, what did it mean to you? MR TSOTETSI We were in one organisation. Her presence being there, did not feel good to me, I wondered what she was doing there, it actually gave me a different picture. MR SIPHO Okay. Did you then confront the deceased at some later point that day? MR TSOTETSI No, I did not approach her. MR SIPHO Okay, were you in the company of certain other people at the time when the deceased was assaulted? MR TSOTETSI Yes, I was. MR SIPHO Who were the other people? MR TSOTETSI The people who are here, as well as (indistinct) and Khanyile. MR SIPHO When you refer to people who are here, do you mean all the other applicants? MR TSOTETSI Yes. MR SIPHO Okay. What did you do to the deceased, if anything at all? MR TSOTETSI I also partook in assaulting her and we then took her to Mr Msolo's home. MR SIPHO Okay. Is it true that the deceased made a certain confession to you and to the other people that were present there? MR TSOTETSI Yes, she did. MR SIPHO What was the gist of that confession? MR TSOTETSI She confessed that she was an informer. She would actually take whatever we were doing, and report it to the IFP and also was in contact with the police. MR SIPHO Okay. Were you also present at the home of Mr Msolo? MR TSOTETSI Yes, I was there. MR SIPHO Who is Mr Msolo? MR TSOTETSI He was the Chairperson of the ANC in the township. MR SIPHO Did you also take part in stabbing the deceased later that evening? MR TSOTETSI Yes, I did. MR SIPHO What exactly did you do? MR TSOTETSI I stabbed her. MR SIPHO Do you know how many times you stabbed her? MR TSOTETSI I do not remember. MR SIPHO Okay. Is it true that each and every one of the applicants here, took turns in stabbing her? MR TSOTETSI Yes, that is the truth, we were all there. MR SIPHO Okay, why was it necessary for everyone to stab her? MR TSOTETSI We had started this all together, and we had to finish it together. MR SIPHO During that time, well, you have always been a member of the ANC, is that so? MR TSOTETSI Yes. MR SIPHO Okay, do you know for how long you had been a member of the ANC at the time of the commission of this offence? MR TSOTETSI I wouldn't be able to remember quite well, but from the time that I was born and grew up in the township, I have always been an ANC member. MR SIPHO Now, when you gave your evidence in the trial court, did you readily concede that you were a member of the ANC? MR TSOTETSI No, I did not. MR SIPHO Is it true that the Judge found that you were very evasive when it came to giving information about the ANC? MR TSOTETSI Yes, that is correct. MR SIPHO For the record, I refer to page 242 of the judgement. Why were you evasive about it, why didn't you simply say that you were a member of the ANC? MR TSOTETSI At that time, I believed that white people were prejudiced against the ANC. That is why I did not admit it at court. MR SIPHO Okay, do you know how members of the IFP would have reacted had you made an admission that you in fact killed the deceased, whilst you were a member of the ANC? MR TSOTETSI No. MR SIPHO Okay, in all other respects, do you confirm the evidence that was given by Mr Mhlambo? MR TSOTETSI Yes, I do. MR SIPHO Mr Chairman and Committee members, I don't intend to get into repeating everything that was said by the other witnesses, I have just covered certain specific areas. I intend to leave his evidence at that. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SIPHO CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Sipho. Ms Thabete, do you have any questions to ask the witness? MS THABETE No Mr Chair. NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS THABETE CHAIRPERSON Mr Lax? Sorry, there is no re-examination obviously. Mr Lax? NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR SIPHO MR LAX Chairperson, if you will just give me a moment, maybe Mr Sibanyoni can carry on. There is one thing I just want to check up with my notes. CHAIRPERSON Mr Sibanyoni, do you have any questions? MR SIBANYONI Thank you Mr Chairperson, I do not have any questions for this applicant. CHAIRPERSON Mr Tsotetsi, are you still serving your term of imprisonment or have you been released? MR TSOTETSI No, I have been released. CHAIRPERSON Was that also during August of this year? MR TSOTETSI Yes. CHAIRPERSON Did you have a Self Defence Unit there in that township? MR TSOTETSI No. We were just the people responsible for protecting the community, but there was no unit. CHAIRPERSON Is Mr Msolo still alive? MR TSOTETSI No, he is deceased. CHAIRPERSON Mr Lax? MR LAX Thank you Chairperson, you alluded to the one area that was worrying me, I just wanted to check the form. If you look at page 160, which is the translation of your application form, perhaps to be fair to you, one would also look at page 149, which is the Zulu version of your form, at the answer to paragraph 6(b), you say that then I was in the Self Defence Unit. You have just told us there was no Self Defence Unit. Why did you write that in your form, or why did you give that answer in your form? What did you mean by that answer? MR TSOTETSI I meant that I was a member of the ANC who was acting under the guidelines of the ANC. MR LAX But you know what an SDU is, you have heard of the term before? MR TSOTETSI I am not very conversant about what they are. MR LAX Why is it written in your form then? MR TSOTETSI I thought that as people who were protecting the community, that was part of what the SDU was. MR LAX You see in September 1991, there would have been SDU's in Greytown, in Nhlalagahle and all sorts of places. The call to form the SDU's happened in the middle of 1990. There would have been an organised SDU in that area, but you don't know anything about that? MR TSOTETSI I would not disagree with that. I was a member of the ANC. MR LAX What structures were you a member of before the ANC was unbanned? MR TSOTETSI I was a member of the ANC because in the township, it was an ANC area, but I did not have much knowledge about other organisations. MR LAX You see until February 1990, the ANC did not operate above ground in this country. There were other structures that were there in place of the ANC. You don't know what structures those were? You weren't a member of them? MR TSOTETSI It was the UDF. MR LAX Yes, so what structure of the UDF were you part of? MR TSOTETSI I was a member or follower of the organisation that existed in the township at the time. MR LAX Yes, I am asking you what was that structure? MR TSOTETSI At the time that I acquired political knowledge, it was the ANC that was prominent. So that is the organisation that I joined. MR LAX You see there would have been a Nhlalagahle Youth Congress that was formed. Youth Congresses were formed in the 1980's in all the townships, and I know for a fact that there was one in Nhlalagahle. You weren't part of that? MR TSOTETSI I will say that I was because whatever happened or took place in the township, I was in line with. I did not dispute whatever was happening, I always cooperated. CHAIRPERSON Did you attend meetings, gatherings of the Youth Congress? MR TSOTETSI Yes. MR LAX You see, lots of people will say they were members of this or that structure, but in reality they simply lived in a place where the predominant value was that of UDF or Inkatha or AZAPO or whatever. Because that was the dominant culture, they simply subscribed to that. They didn't actually joined structures per se, do you understand what I am saying? As opposed to that, there were people who definitely joined structures, who were part of youth movements, were part of civics, who were part of church organisations, that were all affiliated to the UDF. From your evidence, it is clear to me you weren't part of any one of those structures? That doesn't mean you didn't support the UDF or the ANC for that matter. Do you see what I am saying to you? MR TSOTETSI Yes. MR LAX Now you are here to be frank with us. MR TSOTETSI Yes. MR LAX So when we ask you questions about your political affiliation, you must be honest with us. If you weren't a member of a structure, it is better that you tell us that. Do you understand? MR TSOTETSI Yes, I do. MR LAX No further questions Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Sipho, any questions arising out of questions put by the panel? FURTHER EXAMINATION BY MR SIPHO Yes, thank you. Although you may not have been part of any specific structure of the ANC, do you know what the attitude of members of the ANC would have been to members of the Inkatha Freedom Party? MR TSOTETSI Yes. MR SIPHO What was it, a close friendly relationship or was it a hostile one? MR TSOTETSI There was no friendship between the two. MR SIPHO And as such, would it have been acceptable for ANC members to be seen in the company of IFP members? MR TSOTETSI No. MR SIPHO And the deceased in this case, was an ANC member who had been seen in the IFP camp, is that not so? MR TSOTETSI Yes, that is correct. MR SIPHO And it is this that motivated the events of that day? Is that right? MR TSOTETSI That is correct. MR SIPHO I've got no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SIPHO CHAIRPERSON Ms Thabete, any questions arising? MS THABETE No questions Mr Chair. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETE CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Tsotetsi, that concludes your testimony, you may stand down. Thank you. WITNESS EXCUSED .