amntrans AMNESTY HEARING 1998-11-26 DURBAN 3 TULANI FILEMON MOSES CELE AM5498/97 MURDER OF LINDELA ZULU https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53068&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1998/9811241202_dbn_981126db.htm CHAIRPERSON I think just for purposes of record, it is already on record, the Committee is the same as it was introduced earlier this morning, namely Messrs Sibanyoni and Lax and myself, Judge Miller and the legal representative is Mr Ngubane, appearing for the applicant, and Ms Thabete is the Evidence Leader. Mr Ngubane, you are going to be calling the applicant? TULANI FILEMON MOSES CELE (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Ngubane? EXAMINATION BY MR NGUBANE Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Cele, can you please try to raise your voice a little bit, you don't have to fear anything, just relax. CHAIRPERSON Mr Cele, if you could just sit a little bit closer to the microphone, not very close, but a little bit closer. MR LAX Just speak now so we can hear. Mr Cele, just say a few words, can you hear us? MR CELE Yes. MR LAX That is better, thank you. MR CELE Am I going to be led or ... CHAIRPERSON Mr Ngubane is going to be asking you some questions. MR CELE Okay. MR NGUBANE Mr Cele, is it correct that you were born on the 29th of July 1971? MR CELE That is correct. MR NGUBANE Were you born in the Ixopo area in the Province of kwaZulu Natal? MR CELE Yes. MR NGUBANE And did you grow up in Ixopo until round about June 1993, you were still a man of Ixopo? MR CELE That is correct. MR NGUBANE Do you still reside in that area to the present moment? MR CELE Yes. MR NGUBANE Is it correct that at some stage you were a member of the African National Congress? MR CELE That is correct. MR NGUBANE Can you indicate to us at approximately what stage did you become a member of the African National Congress? MR CELE From 1990. MR NGUBANE Are you still a member of the African National Congress? MR CELE Yes. MR NGUBANE During the period 1990 - 1993, did you at any stage become a member of the Self Defence Unit in your area? MR CELE Yes, I became one in 1992. MR NGUBANE Yes, how did you become a member? Did you complete a formal application form or did you just join without there being an application form? MR CELE Mr Ntela who is now deceased as well as Mr Reggie Radebe who is also late, arrived in the area and we joined the SDU. Sometimes we would also travel to the ANC office in Pietermaritzburg. MR NGUBANE When Mr Ntela and Mr Radebe arrived, did they make you complete certain documents so as to be members of the SDU? MR CELE There were something that we did fill in, although I don't remember whether those were application forms or not. MR NGUBANE Mr Richard Reggie Radebe, did you know him as holding a certain portfolio in the African National Congress? MR CELE Yes. He was the Deputy Chairperson of the Midlands branch of the ANC. MR NGUBANE Right, they came to you in 1992, did you say so? MR CELE It was in 1992, that is what I remember. MR NGUBANE Right. When you were made to complete certain forms and you joined the Self Defence Unit, was the Self Defence Unit structure already in existence in your place, or you were amongst the first groups that joined the Self Defence Unit? MR CELE We were the first people to join the SDU. MR NGUBANE Was it explained to you, the purpose of the Self Defence Unit, of the formation of the Self Defence Unit? MR CELE Yes, it was explained. The purpose of forming that SDU was to protect the community against our enemies, and at that time or enemy was the IFP. MR NGUBANE Right, can you explain why you say that Inkatha were enemies of the community at that time? MR CELE Yes, I can explain. The area was predominantly ANC and there were no ANC members in the area, they would just come to attack in the area. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, I think there was a mistake in the translation, it was said that the area was predominantly ANC but there weren't many ANC people in the area, I think the last one was meant to be IFP, is that correct? INTERPRETER Yes, that is correct, thank you Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR NGUBANE Thank you. You said there were no Inkatha people in the area and they used to come to the area to attack, is that right? MR CELE Yes, that is correct. Can I continue? MR NGUBANE Yes. MR CELE They would come to attack because they wanted the area to become an IFP stronghold. MR NGUBANE Had you experienced a number of attacks in the area? MR CELE Yes, for a number of times. Sometimes they would attack just fire shots and return to wherever they came from. MR NGUBANE During the attacks, were there any people killed or any properties destroyed? MR CELE Yes. It sometimes happened, there was one Mbele boy who was killed. A boy of about five years old. Can I continue? MR NGUBANE Right. MR CELE That was not the end of it. Previously there had been an attack and Sandile Biyase had been killed. MR NGUBANE When you joined the SDU's, did you receive any form of training? MR CELE Yes. There was some form of training that we received. It was something basic, just on how to identify the enemy or on how to protect yourself from the enemy. MR NGUBANE Were you trained in any way in methods of physical contact with the enemy? MR CELE With regards to fighting with the enemy, we received something of a crash course. MR NGUBANE Was it explained to you what was meant by defending the community, would you wait to be attacked, or would you perhaps attack in order to avert an impending attack? MR CELE We would wait for an attack, but it would largely depend on what the situation was at the time. MR NGUBANE Right. Let's come to June 1993, in your application you said that you are applying for amnesty in relation to a murder matter that occurred in June 1993, is that correct? MR CELE Yes, that is correct. MR NGUBANE That took place in Noqwega area. Is that area in Ixopo? MR CELE Yes. MR NGUBANE Was the deceased there Lindela Zulu? MR CELE That is the truth. MR NGUBANE Before he could be killed, did you know him? MR CELE Yes, I knew him well. MR NGUBANE Was he a member, before he could be killed, was he a member of Inkatha or was he a member of the Self Defence Unit? MR CELE As a person who was from that area, as I mentioned before, the area was predominantly ANC. He was therefore one of our members. When Sandile died, he left the area and went to reside in town and it later transpired that he had defected to the IFP. MR NGUBANE Did he, when he was still residing in the area, attend camps which you held as the Self Defence Unit? MR CELE Yes. He would sometimes attend camps, but not regularly because he was employed. One time when he attended the camp, he had along a dog. MR NGUBANE What is the significance of the dog, can you explain? MR CELE I cannot say because he just had this dog with him, which was something which was not allowed at the camp. MR NGUBANE Was his behaviour on that evening or during that night, consistent with the discipline of the Self Defence Unit? MR CELE No, I do not think it was in line because if we were attacked or if there was an attack, the dog would probably bark and that would alert our enemies. MR NGUBANE Okay, besides the dog, the deceased behaviour, Lindela Zulu, was it disruptive in any manner during that night? MR CELE He was very restless on that night. We tried to calm him down, to make him sit down. MR NGUBANE Right. You said he left the area and he lived somewhere. Did you at some stage discover that he had defected and was an Inkatha member? MR CELE Yes, we did. MR NGUBANE Right. How did you get to know that? MR CELE We learnt of it after the death of our comrade, Sandile from one person, I think it was his wife. MR NGUBANE Yes, when you learnt that he was an Inkatha member, did you discover that he had participate in the attacks of the ANC people or any person of the ANC? MR CELE When he left to stay in town, we did not have a problem with him. We did not even know that he had defected to the IFP. Even that strange behaviour at the camp, was not taken into consideration at the time. When Sandile died, he sent his wife to dig up cartridges from the bullets that had been used to kill Sandile. MR NGUBANE Right. As a result of that, you realised that although he pretended to be a member of the Self Defence Unit, he was an Inkatha member? MR CELE Yes. That is when we realised that he was an IFP member. MR NGUBANE Did you take any steps after that? MR CELE What sort of steps? MR NGUBANE To approach him? MR CELE Yes. We went to him and we discussed it with him, and we asked him about it and he admitted to us. MR NGUBANE Where did you approach him and where did you discuss with him? MR CELE We were at Ixopo. MR NGUBANE At Ixopo, the new area wherein he was residing now, is that correct? MR CELE Yes. MR NGUBANE How many were you that approached him in Ixopo? MR CELE It was myself, Mzwandile, Msupa. MR NGUBANE Is that all? MR CELE There was somebody else called Mgunezi Mkhize. MR LAX Sorry just repeat that last name, I didn't hear it properly, Mkhize, somebody Mkhize? MR CELE Mgunezi. MR LAX Thank you very much. MR NGUBANE When you approached him, was your purpose to interrogate him about what you have heard? MR CELE Yes, we would question him. MR NGUBANE Right. And did you enquire about his membership of Inkatha? MR CELE Yes, we asked him if he was an IFP member and he said yes. MR NGUBANE Did you enquire about the attacks of Inkatha, whether he knew about him or whether he participated in them? MR CELE Yes, we did ask him. He said he had not as yet received a card, but he was present when the attacks happened. MR NGUBANE Did he indicate to you whether there were any further attacks which he and Inkatha had planned to wage against you? MR CELE Yes, he did explain that the attacks would have been ongoing. MR NGUBANE Okay, where were you when you asked him about these? MR CELE We were near my home, at Noqwega. MR NGUBANE You can tell us how, if you can tell us, how did it come about that he was eventually murdered? MR CELE We assaulted him. At that time Mgunezi had already left. It was myself and the others that I have mentioned. He tried to fight back, he fled, running to his grandmother's house. We went in there. MR NGUBANE Let's take it step by step. You assaulted him and then Mgunezi ... MR CELE And he fought back. Then he fled and we chased after him. He went into the house and we went into the house. My shoe had come off, so I remained in the house, whilst the other two went outside with him. MR NGUBANE When you assaulted him, were you armed? MR CELE Yes, we were armed. MR NGUBANE What sort of arm were you personally, carrying? MR CELE I had a knife. MR NGUBANE The other members that were there, that is Mzwandile, Sandi, what were they carrying? MR CELE One had a firearm, I cannot remember who. Initially it was with Mzwandile, but I don't know just who had the firearm at that time. MR NGUBANE You were left behind because your shoe was off. You had temporarily lost your shoe and the other gentlemen got out of the house with him, is that your evidence? MR CELE That is correct. MR NGUBANE Did they continue assaulting him as they were moving out of the house and when they were outside the house? MR CELE They dragged him out of the house. When I got outside, he was laying down. I enquired from them what had happened. I said is he dead, and they said yes, he is already dead. I also went close to him and I stabbed him with my knife. MR NGUBANE Whereabout did you stab him? Whereabout did you stab him? MR CELE I don't remember but it was around the chest. MR NGUBANE How many times did you stab him? MR CELE Just once. CHAIRPERSON Why did you stab him? You said when you got out he was already laying down, and they said he was dead. Why did you stab him? MR CELE I wanted to ensure that he was dead, because he would have been a danger to us in the community. MR NGUBANE Are you saying that when you killed this man, your intention was to eliminate a danger because this man was working for Inkatha and he was involved in further plans to attack the SDU's, is that correct? MR CELE Yes, that is correct. MR NGUBANE Now, you stabbed him. What happened then after you had stabbed him? MR CELE I would not know, because thereafter we left. MR NGUBANE Is it correct that you were not arrested for this incident? MR CELE Yes, I was not arrested. MR NGUBANE As you are sitting here, are you feeling any remorse about what you did? MR CELE Yes. MR NGUBANE Have you tried to contact the family members to express your remorse? MR CELE No. It was not easy for me to approach them, although I felt that I wanted to do that. Even though I wished that I could, I could not just go straight to them. That is why I decided to actually apply for amnesty. MR NGUBANE Were you scared to approach them as an individual, is that what you are saying? MR CELE Yes. MR NGUBANE But if you were to be guaranteed police protection to approach them and express your feelings about the incident, would you do that? MR CELE Yes, very much so. MR NGUBANE Thank you Mr Chairman, that is the evidence. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NGUBANE CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Ngubane. Ms Thabete, do you have any questions to ask the witness? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS THABETE Yes Mr Chairman. Mr Cele, can you explain again, maybe let me start here, you say you were with Mr Msupa Hlengwa and Mzwandile Nzimandi when you went to the deceased, is that true? MR CELE That is correct. MS THABETE Before you actually went there, did you sit down and discuss the fact that you want to go to him? MR CELE Yes, we discussed it. MS THABETE When you were discussing, what was your intention, what intention did you have of going there? MR CELE It was to discover or to learn the truth from the deceased. MS THABETE What information did you have before you went to ask him what it was you wanted to ascertain from him? MR CELE The information we had regarded the death of Sandile, that he was involved in that incident. MS THABETE Would it be correct for me to say your intentions of going there was to ask him whether he was also involved in the killing of Sandile Biyase? MR CELE Yes, that is correct. MS THABETE And there were no other intentions? MR CELE No, the situation actually became tenser when we actually came and approached him, and he admitted the truth to us. MS THABETE Okay, I am coming there. When you were still discussing, I am sure you must have discussed the fact that either he would say yes, I was there when Sandile Biyase was killed, or no I wasn't there? When you were discussing it, did you make decisions what you were going to do if he denied or admitted? What you were going to do to him? MR CELE The decision came at the end when he had admitted, we had not actually discussed other questions. MS THABETE No, I don't understand you. What I am saying is, you were discussing with your friends, right, that you were going to go to Mr Zulu and asked him whether he was involved in the killing of Sandile Biyase. Surely when you were discussing it, you would have considered what would happen if he admits, what you would do to him if he admits, or what you would do to him if he doesn't admit? Surely you must have discussed that? MR CELE We did discuss that. MS THABETE So you did discuss that? MR CELE Yes, we did. I thought I had mentioned it before. CHAIRPERSON What was your resolution when you discussed it earlier, in the event of him admitting that he was an IFP member, what did you decide at that meeting? MR CELE We discussed that if he admitted that he was involved in the incident of killing our comrade, we would also do the same thing that he did to our comrade. MS THABETE So what you are telling me is that you decided that if he does admit, you will kill him? MR CELE Yes, that is correct. MS THABETE So would it be correct for me to say that your intention was not only to question him, but it was to question him and then if he admits, to kill him? MR CELE Yes, we would first question him. If he denied it, we would not have done anything to him. But if he admitted, we would kill him. MS THABETE Did you go to Mr Zulu's place in Noqwega village? MR CELE Yes, we did. MS THABETE What was he doing there? MR NGUBANE Sorry, maybe just to put the - as far as I understood the applicant, he was in Ixopo now. They went to Ixopo. CHAIRPERSON I think Mr Ngubane, if you could just clear up exactly where he was, because at one stage I got the impression that he was in his new place, that he went to, in Ixopo town, but then later he said that when they spoke to them, they were in Noqwega and he ran into his granny's house. If you could perhaps ask him precisely where did they confront the deceased. MS THABETE Precisely where did you confront the deceased? MR CELE We left Ixopo with him, and we went to Noqwega. CHAIRPERSON So you met him in Ixopo, that is the town, and then you took him back to your place at Noqwega? MR CELE Yes, that is correct. CHAIRPERSON And his old place? MR CELE Yes. MS THABETE If I may ask right there, how did you meet him at Ixopo and what did you tell him? MR CELE The person who could talk to him was Mgunezi, who managed to get him into the car. They actually bought liquor. MS THABETE Okay, and then you went to Noqwega, where? At his place, at your place, at whose place? MR CELE We were on the road, but it was near his home. Near his grandmother's home. MS THABETE So where did you question him? MR CELE We questioned him there, near his grandmother's house. MS THABETE In the car? MR CELE No. MS THABETE You say he admitted to the fact that he was there when Sandile Biyase was killed, is that correct? MR CELE Yes. MS THABETE Was he armed? MR CELE When? MS THABETE When you were questioning him? MR CELE No, he was not armed. MS THABETE So you decided to kill him because he admitted? MR CELE Yes. MS THABETE What did you want to achieve by killing him, what was your objective? MR CELE As a person who grew up in the area, who knew it inside and out, when he defected to an organisation that was an enemy to the community, he would have been a danger to us as he had already admitted that there were other planned attacks against our area. Moreover he knew us as people he had grown up with. He knew that we were organisers and activists in the area. MS THABETE Mr Cele, isn't it strange though that the applicant, sorry the deceased was once an ANC member, you fetch him, you question him whether he attacked Sandile Biyase together with other IFP members, and you also question him whether he was an IFP member, isn't it strange for him to admit that to you, being ANC members? MR CELE When you ask questions, you should ask them in a manner that he is satisfied and that he is free to answer them as honestly as possible. That is how we approached him. We did not enquire from him when he had left our organisation, but we just asked him those questions and he admitted to us. CHAIRPERSON When he admitted to you, had you started the assault upon him, the physical assault upon him, before he admitted to you or only after he admitted to you? MR CELE At that time, we had not yet started assaulting him, we were just talking to him. MR LAX One thing is puzzling me. You said you managed to get him into the car by buying liquor. Just explain that to us. Did you carry on drinking liquor with him and then question him, or what was the story? I am just a bit puzzled by that. MR CELE We met him in town, I don't know whether he had been drinking, but Mgunezi is the one who bought liquor and he is the one that they were drinking with. MR LAX Are you saying that the deceased had been drinking liquor with Mgunezi? MR CELE Yes. MR LAX And so, did he appear to be intoxicated? MR CELE Although he did look like he was drinking, but he was not drunk. MR LAX Carry on Ms Thabete, thank you, sorry. I just wanted to clear that up. MS THABETE Maybe you can clarify this for me, I don't quite understand. You say you picked him up in town whilst he was drinking with his friends. MR CELE No. He was not with anyone, he was alone. Mgunezi called him and asked him to get into the car. We did not physically carry him to the car. MS THABETE So all you said to him was, come, we want to speak to you? What did you say to him to influence him to come with you to Noqwega? MR CELE Mgunezi called him and when he got into the car, we said the car should just go because we wanted to go and question him. It was not easy to question him in town, because there were many IFP people in town. If they had met us, or if they had found us there, they would have shot at us. The town was divided into two, the bottom part belonged to the ANC and the top part belonged to the IFP. IFP members were free to carry their weapons freely whilst we were not. Therefore we could not remain in town for quite a long time with the deceased because people could come upon us and kill us. MS THABETE My last question to you. If the deceased had admitted that he was IFP or he has changed to join the IFP, but was not involved in the killing of Sandile Biyase, would you still have killed him? MR CELE There would have been no reason to kill him then, because that would have meant that he was not involved in the attacks in the area. MS THABETE Last, last question. So there is nothing wrong, is that what you are saying, there was nothing wrong as such with him changing from being an ANC member to being an IFP member? MR CELE No. He could have become an IFP member and stay in the area, but what was wrong was for him to be involved in these attacks. There were other people who had been Inkatha members, but who were not active in the Inkatha activities, and who are still around today. In addition, those people were just a few. MS THABETE No further questions, Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETE CHAIRPERSON Thank you Ms Thabete. Do you have any re-examination Mr Ngubane? RE-EXAMINATION BY MR NGUBANE Yes Mr Chairman. Mgunezi, was he a friend of the deceased? MR CELE I am not sure, but from the way that they were talking, it seemed like they were friendly. We all grew up in the same area, so we knew each other well. MR NGUBANE Did the fact that the deceased admitted in killing one of you, confirm his story that he would be involved in further killings of the people in the area? MR CELE Yes, it could have happened because he also mentioned that there were other planned attacks which made it obvious that he would have been involved too, in those attacks. There was just one route in the area. MR NGUBANE Thank you Mr Chairman, I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NGUBANE CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Sibanyoni, do you have any questions? MR SIBANYONI Yes, thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Cele, immediately the deceased got into the car, did the car speed away with him? MR CELE It did not speed away, it just left. He did not even enquire what was going on or where he was being taken. We just talked. MR SIBANYONI You said you asked him in a manner in which made him free to talk and admit. What manner is that? MR CELE We asked him that we had heard that he had joined Inkatha and he said yes, I had. We asked him why and he said he liked Inkatha and when we enquired about the ANC, he also responded. We were just talking to him in a proper way, in a decent way although I cannot remember what other questions we put to him, but we were just talking. MR SIBANYONI If you say by merely joining the IFP, he would not be killed, the only problem was his participation or involvement in the killing of Sandile, will I be correct to say he was killed because he killed Sandile? MR CELE It is now twofold. MR SIBANYONI What is that two? MR CELE He was an IFP member and he was involved in killing someone, therefore it meant that he was an IFP member involved in killing people, and those were the people that we were opposed to. We did not have a problem with somebody who was an IFP member, but if you were an IFP member and involved in killing people, you were an enemy. MR SIBANYONI The inference that I am drawing there is that if he didn't participate in the attack, in the killing, he would not have been killed, therefore the killing was a revenge killing. What would you say? MR CELE Yes, it was. MR SIBANYONI No further questions Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Lax, do you have any questions? MR LAX Just one aspect Chairperson. There was something earlier on about, you were talking about his wife digging up cartridge cases from the killing of Sandile. What was that all about? Just explain to us, was that part of your information or where did that come in, you spoke about that earlier? MR CELE I explained before that a certain Sandile had died in the area, and it was later discovered that the deceased had been involved. His wife and his mother came to us, or his mother came to us and told us that the deceased's wife had come to their home and had been sent by Sandile, to dig up cartridges from the bullets used to kill Sandile. We told them that we would not discuss the matter on the road, but we would come to their home and discuss this matter with them, and therefore we went to their home and they told us the entire story. When we confronted the deceased with this story, he also admitted that he was indeed involved in the killing of Sandile. Moreover, when we went to Sandile's home, about six o'clock, we could not find any cartridges on the ground, whereas gunshots had been fired several times. MR LAX Thank you Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Mr Cele, just for my own record, these people that you were with, your two comrades, what were their names, I have heard them, but I just want to get their correct spelling, that you were with when you met the deceased and took part in the killing of the deceased with yourself? MR CELE It was Msupa Hlengwa and Mzwandile Nzimandi. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Did you have a Commander of your Self Defence Unit? MR CELE Although it was not formal, a person who used to be in charge or who used to assist in most things, was Jili. CHAIRPERSON Jili? MR CELE Yes. CHAIRPERSON Do you know his first name? MR CELE Magre. CHAIRPERSON This decision that the three of you made, that is Msupa, Mzwandile and yourself, when you discussed it before you met the deceased and you said if he admits that he took part in the killing of Sandile, we will then kill him - was that decision just confined to the three of you or did you approach Jili and say this is what we plan to do? MR CELE (No recording) ... but after the incident, we approached the Chairperson, who was Magubani at the time, and we told him. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, can you repeat his name? MR CELE Magubani. CHAIRPERSON Was he the Chairperson of the local ANC branch? MR CELE Yes, that is correct. CHAIRPERSON Do you know his first name? MR CELE Immanuel. CHAIRPERSON What was his reaction when you told him? MR CELE I cannot remember correctly what his response was. CHAIRPERSON Was he upset, did he chastise you or did he compliment you on your actions, or was he completely neutral in his reaction? MR CELE He did not reprimand us, nor did he commend us. He just listened to what we had to say. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, can you remember the precise date of the murder? You say it is about June 1993, can you get any closer than that? MR LAX I think it is 15 July? MR CELE I cannot remember the date correctly? CHAIRPERSON Have you got 15 July? MR LAX Our investigation report gives the date as the 15th of July 1993. Would you argue with that? MR CELE It could be around that same time. MR LAX You see, our investigators went and found the docket relating to the death of Mr Zulu and the docket number was 62-7-93. You wouldn't deny that, would you? MR CELE As I mentioned before, if that is what is said, then I wouldn't disagree with them. CHAIRPERSON Mr Cele, just finally, you said that the deceased ran into his grandmother's house. Was anybody present at the grandmother's house, besides the four of you, that is the deceased and you and your two comrades. In other words, would there have been any witnesses to this slaying that took place there? MR CELE I don't know if there were witnesses who witnessed this murder, but there were people in the house, although the light was out. CHAIRPERSON Were you ever arrested for this, or any of your two comrades who assisted you, were any of the three of you arrested for this crime? MR CELE No, I was not arrested. CHAIRPERSON Did you flee the area after that, or do you know any reason why you were not arrested? MR CELE No, I have never fled the area. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Do you have any questions arising Mr Ngubane? MR NGUBANE No Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NGUBANE CHAIRPERSON Ms Thabete? MS THABETE No, Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETE MR NGUBANE Mr Chairman, that is the case for the applicant. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON Ms Thabete? MS THABETE No further evidence Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Are you in a position to make submissions Mr Ngubane? MR NGUBANE IN ARGUMENT Yes Mr Chairman, briefly Mr Chairman. The decision whether to grant amnesty or not, will at the end of the day be decided on the facts as presented to the Committee, but I would respectfully submit that the applicant was a very honest man. He was very forthright, unlike the litany of application that have been before the Committee. He is very impressive. CHAIRPERSON As to who the perpetrators were, is that so or was he about to be arrested? Did that prompt him to come, or was it just on his own volition that he has come and made this known and exposed publicly that he was a perpetrator, on his own volition? MR NGUBANE It was his own volition, and he has not tried to hide the co-perpetrators, that is the aspect which I ask the members of the Committee to take into account. Unless there are certain issues which I am required to address, I do not intend repeating what is before the Committee. CHAIRPERSON You submit that he has made a full disclosure of all relevant facts, and that the killing of Mr Zulu was an act in furtherance of a political objective, arising out of the conflicts of the past? MR NGUBANE That is correct, yes. CHAIRPERSON Ms Thabete? MS THABETE I don't have any argument prepared, except maybe to put it on record that the victims have requested me to inform the Committee members that the deceased was a breadwinner and due to his death, they lost their house and also they don't have a house to stay in right now. I reassured them that they will be referred to the R&R Committee. I thought I should put it on record. CHAIRPERSON Do you have details of the next of kin of the victims, who would qualify for reparation in terms of the Statute? MS THABETE Yes, I do Mr Chairman. I do not know whether you would like me to ... CHAIRPERSON I think so because if we could get that, because in the event of amnesty being granted, there will be a reference made to the Reparations Committee of the Truth and Reconciliation Committee, for consideration for the payment of reparation to the next of kin. It is our duty in so far as possible, to refer the names of victims and their next of kin, when we hear them in these proceedings, to the Reparations Committee to facilitate them in their work. MS THABETE Would you like me to read the names? CHAIRPERSON Are there many there? MS THABETE No Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Yes, I think so, if I can just get a note of them. MS THABETE It is Mr and Mrs Zulu, JM. CHAIRPERSON An address? MS THABETE I understand right now they have been given a home. CHAIRPERSON No, only if you've got a fixed, firm address that we need it. MR LAX Just before we finish with you, you have given us the deceased's parents. Was he married, he had children? Did he have children? Perhaps those matters could be addressed later administratively. CHAIRPERSON If you could, Ms Thabete, if you could - in my view I think that we need to refer to the Reparations Committee, would be the next of kin. By that we mean the parents if they are alive, the spouse or spouses if she or they are alive, and the children. We don't go to cousins and second aunties and grannies. It is just in the first degree and if there were any other persons who were dependent on him, it is not the whole, every relative that there is. MS THABETE Can I furnish you with the whole list after I have spoken? CHAIRPERSON You can furnish me with a list and also as far as possible, with contact addresses or details, how they could be contacted. Thank you. MS THABETE I will do so Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON That then brings us to the end of this hearing. I would like to thank both Mr Ngubane and Ms Thabete for their assistance that they have given us, not only in this hearing, but the previous one. It is also the end of the roll for this week in fact, I believe Ms Thabete? MS THABETE That is so Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON We will then be continuing on Monday? MS THABETE Certainly. CHAIRPERSON Should we make it for half past nine? MS THABETE Half past nine is fine. CHAIRPERSON We will now, because we have come to the end of today's proceedings, be adjourning. There hasn't been a matter set down for tomorrow. I believe the reason for that was that initially it was expected that that would be registration day and people would require that day for registration for voting, but in fact, as we all know that had recently been changed, and it wasn't possible to at the short notice, to bring other matters forward. We will now be adjourning for the continuation of these hearings, there is a number of hearings set down for next week. We will adjourn until next Monday, at the same venue and we will hope to start on that day at half past nine in the morning. Thank you. MS THABETE Thank you Mr Chairman. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS